GTR - merciless analysis :)

My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - just going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for NR2003 we have - Advantages - no discrepancy in front tyre temps weather and day/night rubber going down on track - groove Disadvantages - pretty much everything else Fair? Unfair? The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of GP2 slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest link" type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be an issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving worthless. I can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks like turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either program this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do it the Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when people are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for skin transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a paint program in the game? The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver change overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will address this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks available for the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for 3-6 months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you wonder how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not too long hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to sit down and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix. I want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :)

That is laughable, what advantages aside from the easier Multi code does 2003 have? The game hasn't been released to 95% of the world yet and you are comparing it's modability to a franchise that had what 5/6 versions? I am a huge papy fan and can't wait for the first stuff, but to compare the two at this point is a total joke. How about immersion, physics, ai(who cares, but still)sound, sense of speed, 56 different models(compared to 1) and I could go on. Chad "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden]...

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> My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - just > going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for > NR2003 > we have - > > Advantages - > > no discrepancy in front tyre temps > weather and day/night > rubber going down on track - groove > > Disadvantages - > > pretty much everything else > > > Fair? Unfair? > > The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of GP2 > slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest link" > type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be an > issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving worthless. > I > can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks like > turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either program > this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do it > the > Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when > people > are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for skin > transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a > paint > program in the game? > > The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver change > overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will address > this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? > > On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks available for > the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for 3-6 > months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you > wonder > how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not too > long > hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. > > C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to sit > down > and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix. I > want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) > >

I'll wait to comment until you have actually used the product. You should have, too. Marc "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden]...

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> My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - just > going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for > NR2003 > we have - > > Advantages - > > no discrepancy in front tyre temps > weather and day/night > rubber going down on track - groove > > Disadvantages - > > pretty much everything else > > > Fair? Unfair? > > The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of GP2 > slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest link" > type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be an > issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving worthless. > I > can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks like > turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either program > this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do it > the > Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when > people > are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for skin > transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a > paint > program in the game? > > The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver change > overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will address > this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? > > On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks available for > the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for 3-6 > months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you > wonder > how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not too > long > hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. > > C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to sit > down > and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix. I > want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) > >

Byron Forbes <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden]. .. > My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - just > going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod forNR2003

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> we have - > > Advantages - > > no discrepancy in front tyre temps > weather and day/night > rubber going down on track - groove > > Disadvantages - > > pretty much everything else > > > Fair? Unfair? > > The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of GP2 > slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest link" > type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be an > issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving worthless.

I > can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks like > turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either program > this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do itthe > Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point whenpeople > are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for skin > transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there apaint

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> program in the game? > > The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver change > overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will address > this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? > > On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks available for > the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for 3-6 > months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you

wonder > how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not toolong > hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. > > C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to sitdown > and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix. I > want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car. > >

.. The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car.

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:opbld.27$[email hidden]... > The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car. None of this hobby is real... :D

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fnald.55032$[email hidden]... > I'll wait to comment until you have actually used the product. You should > have, too. Nah. Whilst waiting, it's fun to speculate, doncha fink?

Mark Davison <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41954a8f$0$33592$[email hidden]...

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> > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:opbld.27$[email hidden]... > > The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car. > > None of this hobby is real... > > :D

Hehe, you know what I mean <g> > >

> Hehe, you know what I mean <g> Get Real ! ;-)

You are right it is laughable.NR2003 is still in another league over GTR which is just a tweaked F1C game with new car models.Physics are still as flawed and dated and dont really compare to the feedback and dynamics of the NR2003 engine. "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > That is laughable, what advantages aside from the easier Multi code does > 2003 have? The game hasn't been released to 95% of the world yet and you > are comparing it's modability to a franchise that had what 5/6 versions? > I am a huge papy fan and can't wait for the first stuff, but to compare > the two at this point is a total joke. > How about immersion, physics, ai(who cares, but still)sound, sense of > speed, 56 different models(compared to 1) and I could go on. > > Chad > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden]... >> My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - just >> going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for >> NR2003 >> we have - >> >> Advantages - >> >> no discrepancy in front tyre temps >> weather and day/night >> rubber going down on track - groove >> >> Disadvantages - >> >> pretty much everything else >> >> >> Fair? Unfair? >> >> The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of GP2 >> slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest link" >> type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be an >> issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving worthless. >> I >> can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks >> like >> turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either >> program >> this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do it >> the >> Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when >> people >> are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for skin >> transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a >> paint >> program in the game? >> >> The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver change >> overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will >> address >> this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? >> >> On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks available for >> the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for 3-6 >> months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you >> wonder >> how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not too >> long >> hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. >> >> C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to sit >> down >> and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix. I >> want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) >> >> > >

It still amazes me that they would release it like this! I thought the whole point was that they were sim people so know what we would do to them if the game is bad ;-) Scott

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fnald.55032$[email hidden]... > I'll wait to comment until you have actually used the product. You should > have, too. > > Marc Point taken, but........ You've been around long enough to know that hype and a product that really is good rarely coincide. When I don't here anything about a new sim that I don't like THEN they get the cash. I'm not forking out for something that MIGHT be ok. It does sound quite good but I'm just wondering whether or not it's a clear step forward from the PTA mod at present?

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:opbld.27$[email hidden]... > > Byron Forbes <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden]. > .. > > My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course -just

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> > going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for > NR2003 > > we have - > > > > Advantages - > > > > no discrepancy in front tyre temps > > weather and day/night > > rubber going down on track - groove > > > > Disadvantages - > > > > pretty much everything else > > > > > > Fair? Unfair? > > > > The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of GP2 > > slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest link" > > type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be an > > issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving

worthless. > I > > can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Lookslike > > turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can eitherprogram

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> > this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do it > the > > Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when > people > > are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for skin > > transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a > paint > > program in the game? > > > > The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver

change > > overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon willaddress > > this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? > > > > On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks availablefor > > the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for3-6

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> > months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you > wonder > > how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not too > long > > hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. > > > > C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to sit > down > > and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix. I > > want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) > > > The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car. >

Well then, if all those cars in GTR are real then I'd better go and buy a carpark I guess! :)

My guess is that you haven't played it either and are just bashing it based on the ISI engine. Don't base your conclusions on the demo. "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4195a888$[email hidden]... > You are right it is laughable.N-- Chad Rogers Hospital Account Manager R2003 is still in another league over GTR

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> which is just a tweaked F1C game with new car models.Physics are still as > flawed and dated and dont really compare to the feedback and dynamics of > the NR2003 engine. > > "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> That is laughable, what advantages aside from the easier Multi code does >> 2003 have? The game hasn't been released to 95% of the world yet and you >> are comparing it's modability to a franchise that had what 5/6 versions? >> I am a huge papy fan and can't wait for the first stuff, but to compare >> the two at this point is a total joke. >> How about immersion, physics, ai(who cares, but still)sound, sense of >> speed, 56 different models(compared to 1) and I could go on. >> >> Chad >> >> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden]... >>> My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - just >>> going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for >>> NR2003 >>> we have - >>> >>> Advantages - >>> >>> no discrepancy in front tyre temps >>> weather and day/night >>> rubber going down on track - groove >>> >>> Disadvantages - >>> >>> pretty much everything else >>> >>> >>> Fair? Unfair? >>> >>> The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of GP2 >>> slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest link" >>> type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be an >>> issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving >>> worthless. I >>> can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks >>> like >>> turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either >>> program >>> this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do it >>> the >>> Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when >>> people >>> are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for skin >>> transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a >>> paint >>> program in the game? >>> >>> The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver >>> change >>> overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will >>> address >>> this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? >>> >>> On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks available >>> for >>> the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for >>> 3-6 >>> months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you >>> wonder >>> how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not too >>> long >>> hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. >>> >>> C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to sit >>> down >>> and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix. I >>> want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) >>> >>> >> >> > >

Considering the PTA mod isnt much more than a Nascar with 6 speeds Id say even the GTR demo is head and shoulders above anything NR2003 related. Mitch "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4195e651 I'm just wondering whether or > not it's a clear step forward from the PTA mod at present? > >

"Mitch_A" wrote: > Considering the PTA mod isnt much more than a Nascar with 6 speeds Id say > even the GTR demo is head and shoulders above anything NR2003 related. I agree the PTA falls short of providing anything more than a tweak of the Nascar model. However the 330 mod seems to go someway further to providing a representation of a lighter vehicle more suited to road tracks. IMHO the F1C engine still falls behind the Papy one in terms of feel, so whatever Simbin do with it there is something lacking (for me at least) Whereas the lastest ISI engine, rFactor, has a whole new feel to it. I was pleasantly surprised.

"Tony Rickard" wrote...

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>> <snip> > <snip> > IMHO the F1C engine still falls behind the Papy one in > terms of feel, so whatever Simbin do with it there is > something lacking (for me at least) > > Whereas the lastest ISI engine, rFactor, has a whole > new feel to it. I was pleasantly surprised.

If there is a difference between the F1C, GTR and rFactor physics engine, I can't feel it. Three very different vehicle implementations, for sure, and the new DX9 renderer is spectacular, but the physics seem exactly the same to me. Jan. =---

> If there is a difference between the F1C, GTR and rFactor physics engine, I > can't feel it. Three very different vehicle implementations, for sure, and > the new DX9 renderer is spectacular, but the physics seem exactly the same > to me. > > Jan. do you have all the aids and speed sensitivity off?

"Jan Verschueren" wrote: > If there is a difference between the F1C, GTR and rFactor physics engine, > I can't feel it. Three very different vehicle implementations, for sure, > and the new DX9 renderer is spectacular, but the physics seem exactly the > same to me. My biggest issue with the ISI engine used since F12k is a lack of throttle response. I.e. lift off and the wheels carry on spinning. Plus a tendancy to to lack feel when about to break away. Rfactor seems better to me. Feel is hard to explain - it does feel different though. Still not "as one" with it as the papy engine mind you.

"buster" wrote... >> <snip> > do you have all the aids and speed sensitivity off? No, I have 12% speed sensitivity, so I can take my eyes off the road on the straights, but I use the exact same setting in the 3 games (even a bit more if I'm really driving the F1s in F1C). Trust me, there is no noticable difference in the basic physics except maybe the HAT samples are on by default (or I missed the setting in the configuration files). Which is not to say the implementation and feel of the cars isn't the best we've seen from ISI themselves yet. Jan. =---

Byron Forbes <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4195e6e1$0$31703$[email hidden] ...

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> > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:opbld.27$[email hidden]... > > > > Byron Forbes <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >

news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden].

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> > .. > > > My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - > just > > > going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for > > NR2003 > > > we have - > > > > > > Advantages - > > > > > > no discrepancy in front tyre temps > > > weather and day/night > > > rubber going down on track - groove > > > > > > Disadvantages - > > > > > > pretty much everything else > > > > > > > > > Fair? Unfair? > > > > > > The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of

GP2 > > > slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakestlink" > > > type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only bean

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> > > issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving > worthless. > > I > > > can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks > like > > > turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either > program > > > this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do

it > > the > > > Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when > > people > > > are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need forskin

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> > > transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a > > paint > > > program in the game? > > > > > > The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver > change > > > overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will > address > > > this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? > > > > > > On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks available > for > > > the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for > 3-6 > > > months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you > > wonder > > > how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not too > > long > > > hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. > > > > > > C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to

sit > > down > > > and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to fix.I

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> > > want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) > > > > > > The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car. > > > > Well then, if all those cars in GTR are real then I'd better go and

buy > a carpark I guess! :) <rolls eyes>

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:racld.30$[email hidden]...

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> > Mark Davison <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:41954a8f$0$33592$[email hidden]... > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:opbld.27$[email hidden]... > > > The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car. > > > > None of this hobby is real... > > > > :D > > > Hehe, you know what I mean <g>

Aye. And I'm kinda with you - I like to pretend I'm doing something real, rather than pretend to be doing that's pretending to be something else... *I* know what I mean by that, anyway!!

Jan Verschueren wrote:

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> "buster" wrote... >>> <snip> >> do you have all the aids and speed sensitivity off? > > No, I have 12% speed sensitivity, so I can take my eyes off the road > on the straights, but I use the exact same setting in the 3 games > (even a bit more if I'm really driving the F1s in F1C). > > Trust me, there is no noticable difference in the basic physics > except maybe the HAT samples are on by default (or I missed the > setting in the configuration files). Which is not to say the > implementation and feel of the cars isn't the best we've seen from > ISI themselves yet. > Jan. > =---

I am about to order Track IR3 Pro, mainly for flight sims. I see F1 Challenge has support for Track IR. Will GTR have support for it also? -- Don Burnette

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:u3wld.21918$[email hidden]... > > "buster" wrote... > >> <snip> > > do you have all the aids and speed sensitivity off? > > No, I have 12% speed sensitivity, so I can take my eyes off the road onthe > straights, but I use the exact same setting in the 3 games (even a bitmore > if I'm really driving the F1s in F1C). > > Trust me, there is no noticable difference in the basic physics exceptmaybe > the HAT samples are on by default (or I missed the setting in the > configuration files). Which is not to say the implementation and feel ofthe > cars isn't the best we've seen from ISI themselves yet. As has been said, quantifying "feel" is pretty dang difficult. It may well be that the cars are simply softer, but with rFactor I get something that I never got with F12K2, the GTR mod for it or the GTR demo - a sense of being there. I get it with Papy stuff, RBR and to a slightly lesser extent LFS. I can't put my finger on it, but previously ISI stuff that I'd tried was "clinical". I'm lovin' rF, tho!!!

"Mark Davison" wrote

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> As has been said, quantifying "feel" is pretty dang difficult. > > It may well be that the cars are simply softer, but with rFactor I get > something that I never got with F12K2, the GTR mod for it or the GTR > demo - > a sense of being there. I get it with Papy stuff, RBR and to a slightly > lesser extent LFS. I can't put my finger on it, but previously ISI stuff > that I'd tried was "clinical". I'm lovin' rF, tho!!!

Agree 100% Mark. I tried pretty darned hard to get to grips with the previous ISI engined sims. Really hard, yet never acvhieved the feel factor. Rfactor is a definite step forward for ISI IMHO.

"Don Burnette" wrote... >> <snip> > I am about to order Track IR3 Pro, mainly for flight sims. > I see F1 Challenge has support for Track IR. > > Will GTR have support for it also? Yup, you can download a video of it in action here... http://www.gtr-game.com/index.php?page=downloads0 Jan. =---

"Tony Rickard" wrote...

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>> <snip> > Agree 100% Mark. > > I tried pretty darned hard to get to grips with the > previous ISI engined sims. Really hard, yet never > acvhieved the feel factor. Rfactor is a definite > step forward for ISI IMHO.

Oh dear... it's 2002 (or 2001, I don't remember) all over again. Get this straight: the difference in feel is not due to a difference in engine, but a difference in implementation. F1 2k2 and GTR2002 felt totally different because of the different data (the implementation) being fed to the same engine. Idem for GPL '65 and '67 and idem for, say, an ETCC2002 BMW M3 (F1C) and the "M" model (rFactor). Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" wrote: > Get this straight: Christ! Jan's been on a John Simmons' school of diplomacy course... > the difference in feel is not due to a difference in engine, but a > difference in implementation. F1 2k2 and GTR2002 felt totally different > because of the different data (the implementation) being fed to the same > engine. Idem for GPL '65 and '67 and idem for, say, an ETCC2002 BMW M3 > (F1C) and the "M" model (rFactor). The basic issues resided in the all F12k to GTR variants. Depsite their obvious differences in implementation. To me rfactor feels a different base engine, not just a different set of parameters fed into the same engine. As Mark eluded, feel is a hard thing to quantify, but rfactor feels different. Deep down, not just a rehash of an existing engine. I don't believe there is a set of paramaters a mod team could enter into the F1C engine that would feel the same. Cheers Tony

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7rxld.14209$[email hidden]...

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> "Jan Verschueren" wrote: > > > Get this straight: > > Christ! Jan's been on a John Simmons' school of diplomacy course... > > > the difference in feel is not due to a difference in engine, but a > > difference in implementation. F1 2k2 and GTR2002 felt totally different > > because of the different data (the implementation) being fed to the same > > engine. Idem for GPL '65 and '67 and idem for, say, an ETCC2002 BMW M3 > > (F1C) and the "M" model (rFactor). > > The basic issues resided in the all F12k to GTR variants. Depsite their > obvious differences in implementation. To me rfactor feels a different

base

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> engine, not just a different set of parameters fed into the same engine. > > As Mark eluded, feel is a hard thing to quantify, but rfactor feels > different. Deep down, not just a rehash of an existing engine. I don't > believe there is a set of paramaters a mod team could enter into the F1C > engine that would feel the same. > > Cheers > Tony

Welll it's definitely a new and different engine. Not the same as F1C, or GTR. From what I've read though, the multiplayer demo may not even be the full package physics wise. It still feels pretty great as is though. -- David G Fisher

"Tony Rickard" wrote... >> <snip> > Christ! Jan's been on a John Simmons' school of diplomacy course... Other way around, more likely... or maybe we share a similar make-up, which would account for our frequent clashes. <g>

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>> <snip> > The basic issues resided in the all F12k to GTR variants. > Depsite their obvious differences in implementation. To > me rfactor feels a different base engine, not just a > different set of parameters fed into the same engine. > > As Mark eluded, feel is a hard thing to quantify, but > rfactor feels different. Deep down, not just a rehash of > an existing engine. I don't believe there is a set of > paramaters a mod team could enter into the F1C engine > that would feel the same.

And I say you're deluding yourself as I'm pretty sure I'm not letting my "the masses are always wrong"-reflex guide me. I see no evidence to suggest a major re-write was done with reference to F1 2k2 and F1C/GTR. To me the game has always had the potential to play this way. ISI, possibly through having no outside interference (and control over who played their early code), have delivered their most convincing game yet, no question. I just don't see/experience any justification for the general praise heaped upon them this time around other than people had a real go at the game before dismissing it (also, they used to be more ahead of the technology curve then they are now). To me rFactor is a product of the enthousiasm they've always had for their simulation being let off the reigns. Familiar with their engine like no other, obviously, they've driven that advantage home in this implementation. Other than fixing some of the more glaring issues with the online game (especially in dedicated server mode), I experience no measureable difference, sorry. Which is not to say the potential isn't there if they're willing to listen to their veterans (like me, I might shamelessly add). Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:u3wld.21918$[email hidden]... > > "buster" wrote... > >> <snip> > > do you have all the aids and speed sensitivity off? > > No, I have 12% speed sensitivity, so I can take my eyes off the road onthe > straights, but I use the exact same setting in the 3 games (even a bitmore > if I'm really driving the F1s in F1C). Adjust the steering lock in the garage and the car will feel a lot more stable. If you don't know about this key setting with the ISI sims (along with the x axis setting), it's hard to judge how good or realistic their sims feel. :-) I've been saying this for a few years now. :-p Seriously though, without these set correctly for whatever type wheel someone is using, a person will struggle and have a completely screwed up opinion of the driving model. For example, I used to use a Ferrari FF wheel, but now I use a MS FF. They require completely different steering lock settings. Higher for the Ferrari, lower for MS. If I used the Ferrari steering lock settings with my MS wheel, I'd have an extremely loose and super sensitive car, and would hate the way it felt. The MS wheel has a shorter turning radius. BTW, nothing wrong though with using some speed sensitivity. -- David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" wrote...

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>> <snip> > Welll it's definitely a new and different engine. Not the same > as F1C, or GTR. > > From what I've read though, the multiplayer demo may not even > be the full package physics wise. It still feels pretty great > as is though.

Oh, c'mon Dave, not you too... Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" wrote: > And I say you're deluding yourself as I'm pretty sure I'm not letting my > "the masses are always wrong"-reflex guide me. I have stated on several occasions that the F12k-GTR engined sims have never worked for me. As an Alfa 156 owner I really wanted the ETCC mod to be the next GPL! Out of the box rfactor feels different. I could have recognised any old ISI engine sim - be if F1, Alfa 147s, ETCC, GTR2002 and so on as being exactly that. Rfactor does not feel like an F1C mod. I am not suggesting it is the messiah of the sim world, but it certainly has potential which I never saw in the previous ISI engine. Having siad all that I felt I was in a minority that didn't rate the ISI engine in the same league as the Papy engined sims. For whatever reasons it didn't work for me (my wheel setup, brain whatever) and rfactor does may not exist for others. I am firmly of the view that there is a fundamental difference in the engine and not simply some different parameters keyed in for a specific vehicle simulation. Cheers Tony

"David G Fisher" wrote... >> <snip> > Adjust the steering lock in the garage and the car will feel > a lot more stable. > <snip BS> > BTW, nothing wrong though with using some speed sensitivity. Indeed... Dave, you know, all things being equal, I can't touch you; I simply don't have the talent; so does Tony... but one slip by either of you and I'm there to take advantage. So please don't imply I'm not able to tune a particular sim to my rig, thanks. Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" wrote: > So please don't imply I'm not able to tune a particular sim to my rig, > thanks. I am just the Cole Trickle "I just drive it" of MARA, Jan :) wrt Rfactor I think we *both* could be right. From the website: "Is the physics engine all new for rFactor? There are some new components to the physics engine, but our main focus has been to realize the full potential of the driving experience. We wanted to improve the sense of speed, and have the user feel the bumps in the road and the air rushing by. We accomplished this by developing several areas, from audio to camera work to the physics themselves. I think that people will find that we've polished this technology and taken care of some of the oddities experienced in previous products." I think it depends how you achieve the feeling of the physics model. I don't use FF so any similarities in design here will be lost on me. The impact of the audio and visuals developments as well as the physics changes will therefore have a more profound effect. The "magic factor" missing for me and now at least partly in place may not have been missing for you. Cheers Tony

*wonders if Jan has ever seen "Days of Thunder" * How long has it been since that movie first came out? Like 12 to 14 years ago... Dang I'm getting old. rinda "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Koyld.14223$[email hidden]...

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> "Jan Verschueren" wrote: > > > So please don't imply I'm not able to tune a particular sim to my rig, > > thanks. > > I am just the Cole Trickle "I just drive it" of MARA, Jan :) > > wrt Rfactor I think we *both* could be right. From the website: > > "Is the physics engine all new for rFactor? > > There are some new components to the physics engine, but our main focus

has > been to realize the full potential of the driving experience. We wanted to > improve the sense of speed, and have the user feel the bumps in the roadand > the air rushing by. We accomplished this by developing several areas, from > audio to camera work to the physics themselves. I think that people will > find that we've polished this technology and taken care of some of the > oddities experienced in previous products." > > I think it depends how you achieve the feeling of the physics model. Idon't > use FF so any similarities in design here will be lost on me. The impactof > the audio and visuals developments as well as the physics changes will > therefore have a more profound effect. The "magic factor" missing for meand > now at least partly in place may not have been missing for you. > > Cheers > Tony > >

"Tony Rickard" wrote... >> <snip> > > My biggest issue with the ISI engine used since F12k is a lack > of throttle response. I.e. lift off and the wheels carry on > spinning. Though a popular complaint, I have never experienced any appreciable control lag in ISI games. Perhaps there are steps the developers can take to combat this for users having certain exotic input devices, but my TM NasPro, (original) LWFF and (original) Logitech MOMO have not displayed this characteristic unless I overstepped the eye-candy vs performance limit of my configuration with reference to the game. Although, this said and as a client, rFactor seems more tolerant towards this aspect in the online environment than the previous games, but, as before, anyone hosting daring to thread this fine thread leads to the multiplayer experience being "shit4all" (same thing with Papy sims hosted by overambitious hosts, BTW). > Plus a tendancy to to lack feel when about to break away. > Rfactor seems better to me. No difference to me... despite certain gripes with regard to the "out of the box" F1 2k1/2k2, I have always known I'd made a mistake, and realised luck rather than skill would allow me to "stay on top" before it "went", all along. > Feel is hard to explain - it does feel different though. > Still not "as one" with it as the papy engine mind you. That was Ayrton Senna's problem to a certain extend as well... only those who can rationalise their performance, though maybe not as ultimately quick, are truly able to relate their experiences to others. Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2ayld.21994$[email hidden]...

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> > "David G Fisher" wrote... > >> <snip> > > Adjust the steering lock in the garage and the car will feel > > a lot more stable. > > <snip BS> > > BTW, nothing wrong though with using some speed sensitivity. > > Indeed... > > Dave, you know, all things being equal, I can't touch you; I simply don't > have the talent; so does Tony... but one slip by either of you and I'm

there > to take advantage. > > So please don't imply I'm not able to tune a particular sim to my rig, > thanks. > > Jan. Not sure what mood you were in when you read my post, but it was supposed to be helpful, believe it or not. You said, "No, I have 12% speed sensitivity, so I can take my eyes off the road on the straights, but I use the exact same setting in the 3 games (even a bit more if I'm really driving the F1s in F1C)." Sounded to me like what is a pretty tame car in the demo was way too sensitive to your inputs on the straights. I've seen a lot of people with the same problem, both with the demo and with the F1 cars in F1C. Same advice I gave you has helped quite a few others instantly settle their car down quite a bit. Set correctly, the car in the demo will run a nice, smooth line all the way around the track. Nothing to do with my abilities (one way or the other) either. Wasn't trying to insult your abilities or your knowledge about tuning a sim to your rig. I do know about ISI sims (F1 setups, wheel setup), so I try to help. Other sims (like N2003 or GPL), it's best to look elsewhere for help. Do you know all there is about ALL sims? :-) -- David G Fisher

"Tony Rickard" wrote...

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>> <snip> > <snip> I think it depends how you achieve the feeling of the physics > model. I don't use FF so any similarities in design here will > be lost on me. The impact of the audio and visuals > developments as well as the physics changes will therefore > have a more profound effect. The "magic factor" missing for > me and now at least partly in place may not have been missing > for you.

True, I have always been of the opinion FF was a necessity to appreciate the "modern" ISI sims. Lemme ask Mark Jeangerard, a non-FF simmer I know even more inside out than you, for his opinion. Jan. =--

I agree with tony on this one.Having been a long time simmer and having played ISI and papy games for years,to me its clear that rfactor has a feel to it unlike any other ISI game and its as close to papy quality as i have seen by another developer. Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to them compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. GTR is more of the same and is nothing more than an official f1C mod. Rfactor feels far better and advanced than GTR.Its far more dynamic and fluid in feel and handling. Definalty a step up. Please stop trying to defend the old ISI engines.They stunk. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n8wld.82$[email hidden]...

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> > Byron Forbes <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4195e6e1$0$31703$[email hidden] > ... >> >> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:opbld.27$[email hidden]... >> > >> > Byron Forbes <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > >> > news:4194f3cb$0$3596$[email hidden]. >> > .. >> > > My impression of GTR so far, without having tried it of course - >> just >> > > going from what I've read, is that to compare it with the PTA mod for >> > NR2003 >> > > we have - >> > > >> > > Advantages - >> > > >> > > no discrepancy in front tyre temps >> > > weather and day/night >> > > rubber going down on track - groove >> > > >> > > Disadvantages - >> > > >> > > pretty much everything else >> > > >> > > >> > > Fair? Unfair? >> > > >> > > The disruption caused when someone joins stinks - reminds me of > GP2 >> > > slowmo or something. Im a real "chain's as strong as it's weakest > link" >> > > type, and this is a very weak link. Though it will *probably* only be > an >> > > issue in prac sessions, it really just does render the driving >> worthless. >> > I >> > > can imagine being on a pb type lap and having this stuff it up. Looks >> like >> > > turning up 5 mins b4 qual will be the norm. I hope they can either >> program >> > > this out by using only excess bandwidth to transfer skins or just do > it >> > the >> > > Papy way! Another thing I dont understand is why, at this point when >> > people >> > > are no doubt just using the standard cars, is there even a need for > skin >> > > transfer. Aren't the cars already on each clients machine? Is there a >> > paint >> > > program in the game? >> > > >> > > The other thing that is disappointing atm is the lack of driver >> change >> > > overs. Can this really be so difficult? I hear that the addon will >> address >> > > this but I'm not sure whether it's just for LeMans or all the tracks? >> > > >> > > On a hopefully lesser note, look at all the great tracks >> > > available >> for >> > > the PTA mod atm. No doubt the included tracks will suffice in GTR for >> 3-6 >> > > months or so, with a huge boost from the LeMans mod, but it makes you >> > wonder >> > > how long it will take GTR to match NR2003 in the tracks dept - not >> > > too >> > long >> > > hopefully, assuming it is actually possible. >> > > >> > > C'mon SimBin! I know it's easy for someone that doesn't need to > sit >> > down >> > > and do the code, but the 2 probs above surely aren't that hard to >> > > fix. > I >> > > want to see a sim that finally closes down/freezes GPLRank! :) >> > >> > >> > The PTA mod for 03 isn't even a real car. >> > >> >> Well then, if all those cars in GTR are real then I'd better go and > buy >> a carpark I guess! :) > > > <rolls eyes> > > > >

>> From what I've read though, the multiplayer demo may not even >> be the full package physics wise. It still feels pretty great >> as is though. > > Oh, c'mon Dave, not you too... Don't worry, Jan - I've still got my sanity. The comments in this thread are quite amusing - especially to those of us in the know. ;-) What people in this thread are basically saying is that they can't handle proper racing slicks with their unforgiving slip curves. The tyres in rFactor are some of the most forgiving I've ever seen modelled in a sim.

> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to > them compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre > model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. <rollseyes too> Have you even played the GTR press demo?

> You are right it is laughable.NR2003 is still in another league over GTR > which is just a tweaked F1C game with new car models.Physics are still as > flawed and dated and dont really compare to the feedback and dynamics of > the NR2003 engine. Your ignorance sticks out like a sore thumb.

Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I agree with tony on this one.Having been a long time simmer and having > played ISI and papy games for years,to me its clear that rfactor has afeel > to it unlike any other ISI game and its as close to papy quality as i have > seen by another developer. > Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel tothem

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> compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre > model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. > GTR is more of the same and is nothing more than an official f1C mod. > Rfactor feels far better and advanced than GTR.Its far more dynamic and > fluid in feel and handling. > Definalty a step up. > > Please stop trying to defend the old ISI engines.They stunk.

I'm not.

Ive got the full game.And i can handle full racing slicks.NR2003 has the most sophisticated tyre model of all time with data from a winston cup team,and it handles great,just as you would expect. "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to >> them compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre >> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. > > <rollseyes too> Have you even played the GTR press demo? > >

Then how come Jr. said the cts mod represented cup cars better than the actual cup physics ? <g> But then again, that cup team you refer to is Jasper Motorsports, so.........<g> Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4196ed41$[email hidden]...

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> Ive got the full game.And i can handle full racing slicks.NR2003 has the > most sophisticated tyre model of all time with data from a winston cup > team,and it handles great,just as you would expect. > "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to > >> them compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor

tyre

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> >> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. > > > > <rollseyes too> Have you even played the GTR press demo? > > > > > >

I have not been a fan of the F1 series stuff, but GTR feels very different to me and I love it. You are doing a ton a people a disservice by telling them all this is just a rehash of GTR 2002, not even close. If you do in fact have the game I am very surprised you feel that way. Your facts about the Papy engine are far from being what happened and I am not trying to bash Papy, I love them. GTR feels great to me and I will love it until hopefully GTR2 comes as well as the first stuff. The rfactor demo looks like it will have great potential as well, hopefully something that great things can be built around. Just trying to give a positive voice to those that might want to try it, I find it to be the best driving experience available right now by a long ways. Chad "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BZAld.98$[email hidden]...

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> > Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> I agree with tony on this one.Having been a long time simmer and having >> played ISI and papy games for years,to me its clear that rfactor has a > feel >> to it unlike any other ISI game and its as close to papy quality as i >> have >> seen by another developer. >> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to > them >> compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre >> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. >> GTR is more of the same and is nothing more than an official f1C mod. >> Rfactor feels far better and advanced than GTR.Its far more dynamic and >> fluid in feel and handling. >> Definalty a step up. >> >> Please stop trying to defend the old ISI engines.They stunk. > > > I'm not. > > >

"Rinda Lynn Ferguson" wrot...

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> *wonders if Jan has ever seen "Days of Thunder" * > > How long has it been since that movie first came out? > > Like 12 to 14 years ago... > > Dang I'm getting old.

Yeah, I've watched it several times over and, yup, I'm getting old too (we could be an item <vbseg>). I think the film, despite the "Hollywood" storyline, depects certain aspects of racing really well. It takes someone who can't do what it takes to know what it takes... trust me on this one. Jan. =---

"Steve Simpson" wrote: > Don't worry, Jan - I've still got my sanity. The comments in this thread > are quite amusing - especially to those of us in the know. ;-) > > What people in this thread are basically saying is that they can't handle > proper racing slicks with their unforgiving slip curves. The tyres in > rFactor are some of the most forgiving I've ever seen modelled in a sim. We poor sods better start up rasdks then - rec.autos.simulators.don't.know.shit and leave ras for for the real racing drivers...

"Jan Verschueren" > > Feel is hard to explain - it does feel different though. > > Still not "as one" with it as the papy engine mind you. > > That was Ayrton Senna's problem to a certain extend as well... only those > who can rationalise their performance, though maybe not as ultimatelyquick, > are truly able to relate their experiences to others. I *think* I'll take that as a compliment :)

"Jan Verschueren" I *think* I'll take that as a compliment :)

Here's a few comments I found interesting in my cyber travels at the GTR forum over the last day or 2 - THE GOOD - --------------------------------------------------------------------- we cant arrange 24h events before we and you got the addon. we are implementing the events now but we have to wait till simbin released the addon. THE BAD - --------------------------------------------------------------------- the join lag is terrible (but i dont know if u can handle it.... other games with this engine got the problem too, i hope so) --------------------------------------------------------------------- If u set Grafiksettings to low and u drive Enna Pergusa the Tires (blockades) on the street are missed! but they wasnt visible they are missed physical too! U can drive through simply. --------------------------------------------------------------------- So what are the strengths/weaknesses compared to Papy NR2003 replay system? You can't see: - the speed - the gear - the lap time - a little list of the racepositions. The position of the actual viewed car is displayed on top left corner of the screen You can't select a car directly, you've to cycle through the cars with "+" and "-" (numpad) The (instant) replay isn't available in online races! What is better: The replay file size is extremly small compared to Papy ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Um, I haven't said a single word anywhere about GTR..........might want to be sure you're replying to the correct poster before hitting that key <g> p.s. I like it anyway. Chad Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I have not been a fan of the F1 series stuff, but GTR feels very different > to me and I love it. You are doing a ton a people a disservice by telling > them all this is just a rehash of GTR 2002, not even close. If you do in > fact have the game I am very surprised you feel that way. > Your facts about the Papy engine are far from being what happened and I am > not trying to bash Papy, I love them. > GTR feels great to me and I will love it until hopefully GTR2 comes as

well > as the first stuff. > The rfactor demo looks like it will have great potential as well,hopefully

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> something that great things can be built around. > Just trying to give a positive voice to those that might want to try it, I > find it to be the best driving experience available right now by a long > ways. > > Chad > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BZAld.98$[email hidden]... > > > > Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > >> I agree with tony on this one.Having been a long time simmer and having > >> played ISI and papy games for years,to me its clear that rfactor has a > > feel > >> to it unlike any other ISI game and its as close to papy quality as i > >> have > >> seen by another developer. > >> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to > > them > >> compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre > >> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. > >> GTR is more of the same and is nothing more than an official f1C mod. > >> Rfactor feels far better and advanced than GTR.Its far more dynamic and > >> fluid in feel and handling. > >> Definalty a step up. > >> > >> Please stop trying to defend the old ISI engines.They stunk. > > > > > > I'm not. > > > > > > > >

oh, yeah, I agree it depects racing very well. That's why I can watch that movie over and over again. For me, it takes me home. I have been a fan of NASCAR since the Janet Guthrie days. I can trust you on that one. I not able to get out and do what she did. And, I admire what all it took for her to get out there and do that in both Indy styles and Stocks. I extremely admire what those guys get out there and do every weekend now. Dang, I wish it was three hours from now. Darlington - Lady in Black - the only thing, when are those guys going to learn you can't tame a lady? <lol> Rinda "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:U0Gld.22204$[email hidden]...

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> "Rinda Lynn Ferguson" wrot... > > *wonders if Jan has ever seen "Days of Thunder" * > > > > How long has it been since that movie first came out? > > > > Like 12 to 14 years ago... > > > > Dang I'm getting old. > > Yeah, I've watched it several times over and, yup, I'm getting old too (we > could be an item <vbseg>). > > I think the film, despite the "Hollywood" storyline, depects certain

aspects

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> of racing really well. > > It takes someone who can't do what it takes to know what it takes... trust > me on this one. > > Jan. > =--- > >

Bobby Hamilton...(mannn... was he hurting at the end of that truck race last night) I didn't realize it was his car that had those camera mounts... That something cool to know.... Thanks JP... <g> RindaLynn "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:IhLld.106$[email hidden]...

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> Iirc, Bobby Hamilton drove a car with a camera mounted to it, that the > film makers used for various race shots. Daytona I think. > > > Rinda Lynn Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > oh, yeah, I agree it depects racing very well. That's why I can watch > that > > movie over and over again. For me, it takes me home. > > > > I have been a fan of NASCAR since the Janet Guthrie days. > > > > I can trust you on that one. I not able to get out and do what she did. > > And, I admire what all it took for her to get out there and do that in > both > > Indy styles and Stocks. > > > > I extremely admire what those guys get out there and do every weekend

now. > > > > Dang, I wish it was three hours from now. > > > > Darlington - Lady in Black - the only thing, when are those guys goingto

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> > learn you can't tame a lady? <lol> > > > > Rinda > > > > > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:U0Gld.22204$[email hidden]... > > > "Rinda Lynn Ferguson" wrot... > > > > *wonders if Jan has ever seen "Days of Thunder" * > > > > > > > > How long has it been since that movie first came out? > > > > > > > > Like 12 to 14 years ago... > > > > > > > > Dang I'm getting old. > > > > > > Yeah, I've watched it several times over and, yup, I'm getting old too > (we > > > could be an item <vbseg>). > > > > > > I think the film, despite the "Hollywood" storyline, depects certain > > aspects > > > of racing really well. > > > > > > It takes someone who can't do what it takes to know what it takes... > trust > > > me on this one. > > > > > > Jan. > > > =--- > > > > > > > > > > > >

Iirc, Bobby Hamilton drove a car with a camera mounted to it, that the film makers used for various race shots. Daytona I think. Rinda Lynn Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > oh, yeah, I agree it depects racing very well. That's why I can watchthat > movie over and over again. For me, it takes me home. > > I have been a fan of NASCAR since the Janet Guthrie days. > > I can trust you on that one. I not able to get out and do what she did. > And, I admire what all it took for her to get out there and do that inboth

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> Indy styles and Stocks. > > I extremely admire what those guys get out there and do every weekend now. > > Dang, I wish it was three hours from now. > > Darlington - Lady in Black - the only thing, when are those guys going to > learn you can't tame a lady? <lol> > > Rinda > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:U0Gld.22204$[email hidden]... > > "Rinda Lynn Ferguson" wrot... > > > *wonders if Jan has ever seen "Days of Thunder" * > > > > > > How long has it been since that movie first came out? > > > > > > Like 12 to 14 years ago... > > > > > > Dang I'm getting old. > > > > Yeah, I've watched it several times over and, yup, I'm getting old too

(we

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> > could be an item <vbseg>). > > > > I think the film, despite the "Hollywood" storyline, depects certain > aspects > > of racing really well. > > > > It takes someone who can't do what it takes to know what it takes...

trust

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> > me on this one. > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > > > > >

Well, I would think, after seven years of hard racing the real thing, he would know better than anyone, wouldn't he? <wink> Playing sims and racing the real thing, how could he not know which is better? Just common sense. <s> Jasper Motorsports, I use to live near and in Jasper, Indiana. Dang that town is waiting patiently for a win from that team. I wish Brendan would dang hurry up. <g> but, *crossing all fingers and toes*, not til next year! RindaLynn "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tbCld.101$[email hidden]...

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> Then how come Jr. said the cts mod represented cup cars better than the > actual cup physics ? <g> > > But then again, that cup team you refer to is Jasper Motorsports, > so.........<g> > > > Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4196ed41$[email hidden]... > > Ive got the full game.And i can handle full racing slicks.NR2003 has the > > most sophisticated tyre model of all time with data from a winston cup > > team,and it handles great,just as you would expect. > > "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > >> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel

to

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> > >> them compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor > tyre > > >> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. > > > > > > <rollseyes too> Have you even played the GTR press demo? > > > > > > > > > > > >

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:31:04 -0500, "Rinda Lynn Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Darlington - Lady in Black - the only thing, when are those guys going to >learn you can't tame a lady? <lol> When is Nascar going to quit screwing with tradition? The Southern 500 on Labor Day weekend has always been as much a tradition as Indy on Memorial Day. We've lost 1 race here already....how long before Nascar abandons this track all together in favor of another 1.5 quad oval that seats 150,000 fans....sad indeed. Darlington has character, just as Rockingham did. If all that matters to Nascar is selling seats, then I don't like where the sport is headed.

Yes, but have you played the DEMO. That's the question ;>) "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4196ed41$[email hidden]...

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> Ive got the full game.And i can handle full racing slicks.NR2003 has the > most sophisticated tyre model of all time with data from a winston cup > team,and it handles great,just as you would expect. > "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to >>> them compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor >>> tyre model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. >> >> <rollseyes too> Have you even played the GTR press demo? >> >> > >

My line about the guys had to do with the drivers. When are those drivers going to learn that they can't tame a lady? They have to learn to handle her just right if they ever wish to win her over. <g> As a genealogist, I very truly love and understand the need for tradition. And, I also hated seeing the Southern 500 dropped. And, I would love the day, when the world was not ruled by the "bottom line". But, unfortunately, and it is sad, that the "bottom line" does rule in those kinds of decisions. Its the "bottom line" and "seat capacity" that is keeping a WC race from coming to Kentucky Speedway which is only an hour and half from here where I live. Why do some tracks need two races a year that have only had one before? Why not give other tracks out there a chance to prove themselves as well? RindaLynn "TW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:31:04 -0500, "Rinda Lynn Ferguson" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Darlington - Lady in Black - the only thing, when are those guys going to > >learn you can't tame a lady? <lol> > > When is Nascar going to quit screwing with tradition? The Southern 500 > on Labor Day weekend has always been as much a tradition as Indy on > Memorial Day. We've lost 1 race here already....how long before Nascar > abandons this track all together in favor of another 1.5 quad oval > that seats 150,000 fans....sad indeed. Darlington has character, just > as Rockingham did. If all that matters to Nascar is selling seats, > then I don't like where the sport is headed.

TW <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:31:04 -0500, "Rinda Lynn Ferguson" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Darlington - Lady in Black - the only thing, when are those guys going to > >learn you can't tame a lady? <lol> > > When is Nascar going to quit screwing with tradition? The Southern 500 > on Labor Day weekend has always been as much a tradition as Indy on > Memorial Day. We've lost 1 race here already....how long before Nascar > abandons this track all together in favor of another 1.5 quad oval > that seats 150,000 fans....sad indeed. Darlington has character, just > as Rockingham did. If all that matters to Nascar is selling seats, > then I don't like where the sport is headed.

Nascar isn't interested in racing anymore. I don't like it either, but there it is regardless. It's all about keeping the "right people" satisfied now, and those people aren't the fans. Lifelong Nascar fan. Went to races for decades. Haven't since Helton took over and ruined a good thing. Can't afford it anymore either.

JP, sorry wasn't directed at you. Was just replies to the comments above. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TyKld.105$[email hidden]...

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> Um, I haven't said a single word anywhere about GTR..........might want > to > be sure you're replying to the correct poster before hitting that key <g> > > p.s. I like it anyway. > > > Chad Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> I have not been a fan of the F1 series stuff, but GTR feels very >> different >> to me and I love it. You are doing a ton a people a disservice by >> telling >> them all this is just a rehash of GTR 2002, not even close. If you do in >> fact have the game I am very surprised you feel that way. >> Your facts about the Papy engine are far from being what happened and I >> am >> not trying to bash Papy, I love them. >> GTR feels great to me and I will love it until hopefully GTR2 comes as > well >> as the first stuff. >> The rfactor demo looks like it will have great potential as well, > hopefully >> something that great things can be built around. >> Just trying to give a positive voice to those that might want to try it, >> I >> find it to be the best driving experience available right now by a long >> ways. >> >> Chad >> >> >> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:BZAld.98$[email hidden]... >> > >> > Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > news:[email hidden]... >> >> I agree with tony on this one.Having been a long time simmer and >> >> having >> >> played ISI and papy games for years,to me its clear that rfactor has a >> > feel >> >> to it unlike any other ISI game and its as close to papy quality as i >> >> have >> >> seen by another developer. >> >> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel >> >> to >> > them >> >> compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre >> >> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. >> >> GTR is more of the same and is nothing more than an official f1C mod. >> >> Rfactor feels far better and advanced than GTR.Its far more dynamic >> >> and >> >> fluid in feel and handling. >> >> Definalty a step up. >> >> >> >> Please stop trying to defend the old ISI engines.They stunk. >> > >> > >> > I'm not. >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >

Np, thanks. Sorry for the confusion. Chad Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> JP, sorry wasn't directed at you. Was just replies to the comments above. > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:TyKld.105$[email hidden]... > > Um, I haven't said a single word anywhere about GTR..........might want > > to > > be sure you're replying to the correct poster before hitting that key

<g>

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> > > > p.s. I like it anyway. > > > > > > Chad Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > >> I have not been a fan of the F1 series stuff, but GTR feels very > >> different > >> to me and I love it. You are doing a ton a people a disservice by > >> telling > >> them all this is just a rehash of GTR 2002, not even close. If you do

in

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> >> fact have the game I am very surprised you feel that way. > >> Your facts about the Papy engine are far from being what happened and I > >> am > >> not trying to bash Papy, I love them. > >> GTR feels great to me and I will love it until hopefully GTR2 comes as > > well > >> as the first stuff. > >> The rfactor demo looks like it will have great potential as well, > > hopefully > >> something that great things can be built around. > >> Just trying to give a positive voice to those that might want to try

it,

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> >> I > >> find it to be the best driving experience available right now by a long > >> ways. > >> > >> Chad > >> > >> > >> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:BZAld.98$[email hidden]... > >> > > >> > Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> > news:[email hidden]... > >> >> I agree with tony on this one.Having been a long time simmer and > >> >> having > >> >> played ISI and papy games for years,to me its clear that rfactor has

a > >> > feel > >> >> to it unlike any other ISI game and its as close to papy quality asi

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> >> >> have > >> >> seen by another developer. > >> >> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel > >> >> to > >> > them > >> >> compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre > >> >> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003. > >> >> GTR is more of the same and is nothing more than an official f1C

mod.

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> >> >> Rfactor feels far better and advanced than GTR.Its far more dynamic > >> >> and > >> >> fluid in feel and handling. > >> >> Definalty a step up. > >> >> > >> >> Please stop trying to defend the old ISI engines.They stunk. > >> > > >> > > >> > I'm not. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > >

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >> From what I've read though, the multiplayer demo may not even > >> be the full package physics wise. It still feels pretty great > >> as is though. > > > > Oh, c'mon Dave, not you too... > > Don't worry, Jan - I've still got my sanity. The comments in this thread > are quite amusing - especially to those of us in the know. ;-) > > What people in this thread are basically saying is that they can't handle > proper racing slicks with their unforgiving slip curves. The tyres in > rFactor are some of the most forgiving I've ever seen modelled in a sim.

Shall I repeat this for the cheap seats? "It may well be that the cars are simply softer" Maybe it's not that we can't handle them, it's just that with the GTs and F1s as modelled by ISI we can't "feel" them. "The tyres in rFactor are some of the most forgiving I've ever seen modelled in a sim." Hmmm... How long is the list of titles worthy of the moniker "sim"? Currently I'd say there's 2 big players ISI, Papy (if we consider N2003 still current) and some new kids on the block - Warthog with RBR, the LFS boys... I get "feel" with all except ISI (until rFactor). I'm making a logic leap here, but is this because all except ISI have super-forgiving tyre models? (we'll take GPL as read!)

"David G Fisher" wrote... >> <snip> > > Not sure what mood you were in when you read my post, but it was > supposed to be helpful, believe it or not. I was getting a little exhasparated<sp?> about the whole situation. My apologies. Even so, you were always one of the few posters here who supported the ISI approach too. I was not expecting you to think of rFactor as a major leap too. Then again, thinking about it, you pretty much concentrated on the F1 side of things as I recall.

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> <snip> > Sounded to me like what is a pretty tame car in the demo was > way too sensitive to your inputs on the straights. I've seen > a lot of people with the same problem, both with the demo and > with the F1 cars in F1C. Same advice I gave you has helped > quite a few others instantly settle their car down quite a bit. > Set correctly, the car in the demo will run a nice, smooth > line all the way around the track.

It's not that... I have a tendency to veer off line when I'm not actually looking at the track. A little speed sensitivity means I can look at the cockpit instruments without drifting so far I need a big correction to get back to my intended line. > Nothing to do with my abilities (one way or the other) either. Yeah, right... LOL > Wasn't trying to insult your abilities or your knowledge about > tuning a sim to your rig. Of course not, I just read that into it at the time. > I do know about ISI sims (F1 setups, wheel setup), so I try to > help. Other sims (like N2003 or GPL), it's best to look elsewhere > for help. Yeah, you and Dave Henrie have been a big help for me with regard to ISI sims. > Do you know all there is about ALL sims? :-) Nah, I'm clueless with regard to Racer and NetKar. ;-) Jan. =---