Re: Nascar 4 Offically Announced

On Wed, 03 May 2000 13:36:20 -0700, Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. >I'm sure though that Papyrus realise they can't go alienating >(the spelling is surely wrong?) their main support base, and >will make sure it is playable on a wide range of systems. > >I hope so anyway, coz my CPU upgrade is still a while off. > >Chris

Fear of too-high system specs is why they kept using that old, dried-up engine for N3 instead of something with true 3D capabilities. Talk about alienation... that alienated me. It felt bogus after playing Sports Car GT, of all things. Tim

Sierra just dropped this PR in our news box that announces Nascar Racing 4. The whole PR is quite large so I'll just smack up the good parts below: "With an entirely new, ground breaking physics engine, NASCAR(r) Racing 4 offers everyone a chance to climb into a NASCAR(r) Winston Cup car with their PC and enjoy a riveting experience unmatched by any other driving sim," said Jim Veevaert, vice-president of marketing for Sierra Studios. "Papyrus Founder, Dave Kaemmer, introduces the novice to the fun and excitement of racing, but steeps the expert in all the subtleties and strategies of the NASCAR(r) racing experience, learning what the drivers know." NASCAR(r) Racing 4 features the drivers and teams from the 2000 NASCAR(r) Winston Cup and NASCAR(r) Busch Series, Grand National Division. NASCAR(r) Racing 4 showcases a revolutionary new 3D physics model that adds realism to the reactions of the cars - with body rolls, the ability to become airborne, and tires that spin and lock up. The cars also feature a virtual 3D cockpit that allows you to look left and right, has dynamic arm and steering wheel movement - enhancing the immersive quality of the game. To further improve the ease of the experience, the interactive user interface includes pop-up help for car setup and configuration options. Other driver aids include a novice mode with steering and stability control, traction control to limit wheel spin, and antilock brakes. The new hardware-only 32-bit graphics engine allows for real-time reflection maps and shadows, higher frame rate, and smooth slow-motion replay. New 3D AI modeling allows for a formidable field of realistic competitors. "NASCAR(r) Racing 4 allows up to 32 drivers to race online with robust LAN and Internet support, which is up to eight times the number of players other racing sims can support," said Scott Stutsman, producer at Papyrus. "These multiplayer capabilities, our revolutionary 3D physics model and new 32 bit graphics engine are just some of the features that exemplify how Papyrus continues to raise the bar for our competitors." -- Eric Hansen If you like Nuevo Flamenco then visit my site: www.nuevoflamenco.com

"Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote > Very good news, but no GPL engine then? Hmmm... ?� Nascar Racing 4 is based on the new Papyrus game engine. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Tim...read between the lines...they are NOT going to say they have a two year old engine...:) Yes it IS a version of the GPL engine... dave henrie Tim Vanhee wrote:

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> > Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated engine maybe, > to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like the > gpl-engine to me. > Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics department. > Can't wait! > > > The new hardware-only 32-bit graphics engine allows for real-time > reflection > > maps and shadows, higher frame rate, and smooth slow-motion replay. New 3D > > AI modeling allows for a formidable field of realistic competitors.

They waited long enough. By November my guess is 1Ghz will be $1500. Start saving... --David "Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. > I'm sure though that Papyrus realise they can't go alienating > (the spelling is surely wrong?) their main support base, and > will make sure it is playable on a wide range of systems. > > I hope so anyway, coz my CPU upgrade is still a while off. > > Chris > > In article <hT%P4.117252$[email hidden] > ops.be>, "Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated > engine maybe, > >to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like > the > >gpl-engine to me. > >Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics > department. > >Can't wait! > > > > > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network

* > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! >

I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. I'm sure though that Papyrus realise they can't go alienating (the spelling is surely wrong?) their main support base, and will make sure it is playable on a wide range of systems. I hope so anyway, coz my CPU upgrade is still a while off. Chris In article <hT%P4.117252$[email hidden] ops.be>, "Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updatedengine maybe, >to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look likethe >gpl-engine to me. >Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphicsdepartment. >Can't wait! > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

Hmm, did they say anything about a minimum system requirements? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Mike Barlow Marketing Director ZGN http://bovineracing.com/zgnews.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ymenard wrote in message ... >"Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote >> Very good news, but no GPL engine then? > >Hmmm... ?� > >Nascar Racing 4 is based on the new Papyrus game engine. > > > >-- >-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> >-- May the Downforce be with you... >-- http://www.WeRace.net >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated engine maybe, to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like the gpl-engine to me. Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics department. Can't wait! > The new hardware-only 32-bit graphics engine allows for real-timereflection > maps and shadows, higher frame rate, and smooth slow-motion replay. New 3D > AI modeling allows for a formidable field of realistic competitors.

The good news is...AMD has scared Intel so much lately that Intel is bringing out it's 1.5 ghz chip way sooner than planned. The new chip, Willamette, should be "STARTING" at 1.5ghz and be scalable up from that point...This will bring down the prices on PIII 800's and AMD will follow suit with lower prices on Athlons.. dave henrie "David L. Cook" wrote:

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> > They waited long enough. By November my guess is 1Ghz will be $1500. Start > saving... > > --David > > "Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. > > I'm sure though that Papyrus realise they can't go alienating > > (the spelling is surely wrong?) their main support base, and > > will make sure it is playable on a wide range of systems. > > > > I hope so anyway, coz my CPU upgrade is still a while off. > > > > Chris > > > > In article <hT%P4.117252$[email hidden] > > ops.be>, "Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated > > engine maybe, > > >to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like > > the > > >gpl-engine to me. > > >Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics > > department. > > >Can't wait! > > > > > > > > > > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network > * > > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! > >

A NEW game with the GPL engine ???? What kind of company is this ? Hey guys, this is the year 2000, I know GPL is a great game but did you check the graphics on the latest games ? The handling is quite okay on rally masters too.... Anyway, GPL rules....

Barlow... what do you care! You will probably run it in pee-wee or castrated mode anyways ;) <VBG> BTW... Hows things going? -- Scott B. Husted ICQ #4395450 Editor in Chief PowerSims.com Mike Barlow <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6R0Q4.1551$[email hidden]... > Hmm, did they say anything about a minimum system requirements? > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---------------------------------------- > Mike Barlow > Marketing Director ZGN http://bovineracing.com/zgnews.htm > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ----------------------------------------- > ymenard wrote in message ... > >"Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> Very good news, but no GPL engine then? > > > >Hmmm... ?� > > > >Nascar Racing 4 is based on the new Papyrus game engine. > > > > > > > >-- > >-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > >-- May the Downforce be with you... > >-- http://www.WeRace.net > >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > > > >

Never mind CPU, what about graphic accelerator support? Glide, D3D, Open-GL or all of the above? Sal V. "Tim O." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 03 May 2000 13:36:20 -0700, Chris Bloom > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. > >I'm sure though that Papyrus realise they can't go alienating > >(the spelling is surely wrong?) their main support base, and > >will make sure it is playable on a wide range of systems. > > > >I hope so anyway, coz my CPU upgrade is still a while off. > > > >Chris > > Fear of too-high system specs is why they kept using that old, > dried-up engine for N3 instead of something with true 3D capabilities. > > Talk about alienation... that alienated me. > It felt bogus after playing Sports Car GT, of all things. > > Tim >

I've had more close dices with more driver at the same time then I ever did in F1. And that just in the pick up races. The F3 league races are far superior to any F1 race I have ever heard of so far. If I was just after hot lapping and being busy in a car I'd go for F1, but I'd rather have close competition. I do miss the NASCAR races for the "close" racing, however, I like to use the brakes once in a while :-) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Mike Barlow Owner/Driver of Barlow Racing http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Marketing Director ZGN http://bovineracing.com/zgnews.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- Scott B. Husted wrote in message ... >Barlow... what do you care! You will probably run it in pee-wee or >castrated mode anyways ;) > ><VBG> > >BTW... Hows things going? >-- >Scott B. Husted >ICQ #4395450 > >Editor in Chief >PowerSims.com > >Mike Barlow <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:6R0Q4.1551$[email hidden]... >> Hmm, did they say anything about a minimum system requirements? >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >-- >> ---------------------------------------- >> Mike Barlow >> Marketing Director ZGN http://bovineracing.com/zgnews.htm >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >-- >> ----------------------------------------- >> ymenard wrote in message ... >> >"Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote >> >> Very good news, but no GPL engine then? >> > >> >Hmmm... ?� >> > >> >Nascar Racing 4 is based on the new Papyrus game engine. >> > >> > >> > >> >-- >> >-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> >> >-- May the Downforce be with you... >> >-- http://www.WeRace.net >> >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't >realise >> >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >

"Napoleon BlownApart" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Sierra just dropped this PR in our news box that announces Nascar Racing 4. >The whole PR is quite large so I'll just smack up the good parts below: Thanks fro the heads-up, sounds great! From any other developer I'd be sceptical of the "new physics engine" claim, but I trust Papy and Dave K. Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote: >I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. Some games are worth upgrading for. (The last time I upgraded my CPU was when GPL came out.) Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

Yeah Dave, read between the lines: "With an entirely new, ground breaking physics engine" Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: -<+>- Tim...read between the lines...they are NOT going to say they -<+>-have a two year old engine...:) -<+>-Yes it IS a version of the GPL engine... -<+>-dave henrie -<+>- -<+>-Tim Vanhee wrote: -<+>-> -<+>-> Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated engine maybe, -<+>-> to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like the -<+>-> gpl-engine to me. -<+>-> Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics department. -<+>-> Can't wait! -<+>-> -<+>-> > The new hardware-only 32-bit graphics engine allows for real-time -<+>-> reflection -<+>-> > maps and shadows, higher frame rate, and smooth slow-motion replay. New 3D -<+>-> > AI modeling allows for a formidable field of realistic competitors.

It sounds to me that Papy has learned some marketing lessons. They clearly reach out to the arcade crowd with "introduces the novice to the fun and excitement of racing,...." and then offer this for the simmers "but steeps the expert in all the subtleties..." I think it is no accident that the "dreaded" GPL physics engine is not mentioned anywhere (of course for me you have to change "dreaded" to "blessed"). I think it's pretty clear that DK is going to deliver a sim an par with GPL. regards, Patrick Tim Vanhee wrote in message ... >Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated engine maybe, >to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like the >gpl-engine to me. >Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics department. >Can't wait! >

I would guess the meaning to be... 'an entirely new "TO NASCAR" ground breaking physics engine' this isn't a rewrite of N99 it isn't an entirely new system...it's gpl converted and tweek and/or subtracted from to work with a Winston Cup car format. It won't be '67 lotus with fenders...the entire number package that makes up the car and track physics will have been changed to meet the Nascar feel. dave henrie 3_4_me wrote:

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> > Yeah Dave, read between the lines: > "With an entirely new, ground breaking physics engine" > > Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > > -<+>- Tim...read between the lines...they are NOT going to say they > -<+>-have a two year old engine...:) > -<+>-Yes it IS a version of the GPL engine... > -<+>-dave henrie > -<+>- > -<+>-Tim Vanhee wrote: > -<+>-> > -<+>-> Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated engine maybe, > -<+>-> to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like the > -<+>-> gpl-engine to me. > -<+>-> Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics department. > -<+>-> Can't wait! > -<+>-> > -<+>-> > The new hardware-only 32-bit graphics engine allows for real-time > -<+>-> reflection > -<+>-> > maps and shadows, higher frame rate, and smooth slow-motion replay. New 3D > -<+>-> > AI modeling allows for a formidable field of realistic competitors.

I'd bet, D3D only. It makes sense because all the cards support it. It also makes sense because it'll screw us up if we were planning a Voodoo 5500 purchase. Isn't that the way it works? So, for the best D3D speeds, we'll need a geforce2 gts. Even if, big if, the Voodoo5500's glide speed is better than the new geforce's D3D speed, the 5500 will most likely be slower in D3D. But wait, the game won't be out for 6 months, so these new cards will be old technology by then. -- Slot www.slottweak.com Tweaks & Reviews "Sal V." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XV3Q4.169923$[email hidden]... > Never mind CPU, what about graphic accelerator support? Glide, D3D, Open-GL > or all of the above? > > Sal V. > > "Tim O." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Wed, 03 May 2000 13:36:20 -0700, Chris Bloom > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. > > >I'm sure though that Papyrus realise they can't go alienating > > >(the spelling is surely wrong?) their main support base, and > > >will make sure it is playable on a wide range of systems. > > > > > >I hope so anyway, coz my CPU upgrade is still a while off. > > > > > >Chris > > > > Fear of too-high system specs is why they kept using that old, > > dried-up engine for N3 instead of something with true 3D capabilities. > > > > Talk about alienation... that alienated me. > > It felt bogus after playing Sports Car GT, of all things. > > > > Tim > > > >

Too right Mike, you had a fight and a half on your hands last Sunday. I bet our Norwegian friend sweated bucketts with you snapping at his heels for the better part of 20 laps. Jan. =--- Mike Barlow wrote... > I've had more close dices with more driver at the same time then Iever > did in F1. And that just in the pick up races. The F3 league races arefar > superior to any F1 race I have ever heard of so far. If I was just after > hot lapping and being busy in a car I'd go for F1, but I'd rather haveclose

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> competition. > > I do miss the NASCAR races for the "close" racing, however, I like to > use the brakes once in a while :-) > > --------------------------------------- > Mike Barlow > Owner/Driver of Barlow Racing http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ > Marketing Director ZGN http://bovineracing.com/zgnews.htm > --------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- > <snip>

You can give me good physics over fancy graphics anyday. BTW I think the graphics in GPL are fine, I can see which way the road is going and where the other cars are what else do I need ? ;) -- Ian Parker == LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8eqd1d$2ti$[email hidden]... > A NEW game with the GPL engine ???? > > What kind of company is this ? > > Hey guys, this is the year 2000, I know GPL is a great game but did you > check the graphics on the latest games ? > > The handling is quite okay on rally masters too.... > > Anyway, GPL rules.... > >

but...doncha wanna see the fan in turn 3 take off her top? dave henrie Ian P wrote:

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> > You can give me good physics over fancy graphics anyday. > BTW I think the graphics in GPL are fine, I can see which way the road is > going and where the other cars are what else do I need ? ;) > > -- > Ian Parker > == > LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8eqd1d$2ti$[email hidden]... > > A NEW game with the GPL engine ???? > > > > What kind of company is this ? > > > > Hey guys, this is the year 2000, I know GPL is a great game but did you > > check the graphics on the latest games ? > > > > The handling is quite okay on rally masters too.... > > > > Anyway, GPL rules.... > > > >

Well as you put it like that....... <G> -- Ian Parker == > but...doncha wanna see the fan in turn 3 take off her top? > dave henrie > > You can give me good physics over fancy graphics anyday. > > BTW I think the graphics in GPL are fine, I can see which way the road is > > going and where the other cars are what else do I need ? ;) > > -- > > Ian Parker

Well as you put it like that....... <G> -- Ian Parker == Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > but...doncha wanna see the fan in turn 3 take off her top? > dave henrie > > Ian P wrote: > > > > You can give me good physics over fancy graphics anyday. > > BTW I think the graphics in GPL are fine, I can see which way the road is > > going and where the other cars are what else do I need ? ;) > > > > -- > > Ian Parker

isn't that what he is talking about.....good physics? Sudesh Dave Henrie wrote:

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> but...doncha wanna see the fan in turn 3 take off her top? > dave henrie > > Ian P wrote: > > > > You can give me good physics over fancy graphics anyday. > > BTW I think the graphics in GPL are fine, I can see which way the road is > > going and where the other cars are what else do I need ? ;) > > > > -- > > Ian Parker > > == > > LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8eqd1d$2ti$[email hidden]... > > > A NEW game with the GPL engine ???? > > > > > > What kind of company is this ? > > > > > > Hey guys, this is the year 2000, I know GPL is a great game but did you > > > check the graphics on the latest games ? > > > > > > The handling is quite okay on rally masters too.... > > > > > > Anyway, GPL rules.... > > > > > >

K7-800 Athalon = $314 Asus K7V m/b = $155 PC133 128mb = $89 WD 10gb 7200 = $115 Total Upgrade = $673 optional GeForce DDR = $211 or Voodoo 3500 = $155 go big time GeForce2 or Voodoo5 = $300+ All prices from www.pricewatch.com My point to this post is that it is pretty reasonable to upgrade your system these days without having to dump $2500 each time you do it. A game like N4 will require a lot of horsepower but you do not necessarily have to take out a second mortgage to do it. Andrew B.

In article <[email hidden]>, amos-opus <[email hidden]> writes:

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>isn't that what he is talking about.....good physics? > >Sudesh > >Dave Henrie wrote: > >> but...doncha wanna see the fan in turn 3 take off her top? >> dave henrie >> >> Ian P wrote: >> > >> > You can give me good physics over fancy graphics anyday. >> > BTW I think the graphics in GPL are fine, I can see which way the road is >> > going and where the other cars are what else do I need ? ;) >> >

Only if they *jiggle*... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

all proportional to your income, of course....personally, $673 is a shitload of money, and can't simply stump up at the drop of a hat. -- Colin Harris ColinHarris in N3/NL Proud co-owner - CLONE N.Legends league http://members.chello.se/clone/index.htm ICQ 25485061 abritto1 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > K7-800 Athalon = $314 > Asus K7V m/b = $155 > PC133 128mb = $89 > WD 10gb 7200 = $115 > > Total Upgrade = $673 > > optional > > GeForce DDR = $211 > or > Voodoo 3500 = $155 > > go big time > > GeForce2 or Voodoo5 = $300+ > > All prices from www.pricewatch.com > > My point to this post is that it is pretty reasonable to upgrade your system > these days without having to dump $2500 each time you do it. > > A game like N4 will require a lot of horsepower but you do not necessarily have > to take out a second mortgage to do it. > > Andrew B. >

As Intel has taught us well over the last 6 months, "Announcing to slow down people from purchasing Athlons" is much different than "Shipping". This whole Willy thing has a FUD-Factor of 10. -Larry On Wed, 03 May 2000 22:21:37 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> The good news is...AMD has scared Intel so much lately that >Intel is bringing out it's 1.5 ghz chip way sooner than planned. The >new chip, Willamette, should be "STARTING" at 1.5ghz and be scalable up >from that point...This will bring down the prices on PIII 800's and AMD >will follow suit with lower prices on Athlons.. >dave henrie > > >"David L. Cook" wrote: >> >> They waited long enough. By November my guess is 1Ghz will be $1500. Start >> saving... >> >> --David >> >> "Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > I hope this isn't going to be only playable on "Ninja" systems. >> > I'm sure though that Papyrus realise they can't go alienating >> > (the spelling is surely wrong?) their main support base, and >> > will make sure it is playable on a wide range of systems. >> > >> > I hope so anyway, coz my CPU upgrade is still a while off. >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > In article <hT%P4.117252$[email hidden] >> > ops.be>, "Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> > >Very good news, but no GPL engine then? A modified, updated >> > engine maybe, >> > >to cope with 43 cars and glide or d3d? The screenies look like >> > the >> > >gpl-engine to me. >> > >Anyway it sounds like it's ready to be beat gpl in the graphics >> > department. >> > >Can't wait! >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network >> * >> > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! >> >

Now for the truly amazing fact. ALL of that adds up to less than one single 128MB RDRAM RAMBUSt memory module. Yeah, Intel. Show me the way :) -Larry On Sat, 06 May 2000 19:35:19 GMT, abritto1 <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>K7-800 Athalon = $314 >Asus K7V m/b = $155 >PC133 128mb = $89 >WD 10gb 7200 = $115 > >Total Upgrade = $673 > >optional > >GeForce DDR = $211 >or >Voodoo 3500 = $155 > >go big time > >GeForce2 or Voodoo5 = $300+ > >All prices from www.pricewatch.com > >My point to this post is that it is pretty reasonable to upgrade your system >these days without having to dump $2500 each time you do it. > >A game like N4 will require a lot of horsepower but you do not necessarily have >to take out a second mortgage to do it. > >Andrew B.