Re: NASCAR Heat is goint be ARCADE as per Ed Martin (Producer)

>From the outset, Hasbro has looked at racing as sports >entertainment, You want sports entertaiment, make a WWF game. Racer X Veteran Sim Racer #4 Corvette C5-R in the GTIC #24 Monte Carlo in the DORL Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

I have read the interview with the producer at http://www.powersims.com/on_the_spot/ed_martin/ed_martin.html It seems to me that at its highest level it purports to offer a very good physics model. After all it is based on the viper racing code. The people working on it have a good pedigree. The following is pasted from the interview :- "Scott - I generally ask this of all our quests, so please forgive me if it seems pass�. Almost all sim racers consider Grand Prix Legends by Papyrus as the top level of sim realism to date. Even though you can't compare a Winston Cup car to a 1967 F1 car, how would you compare the physics engine in NASCAR Heat (NH) to Grand Prix Legends? Does it employ 6 degrees of freedom? Ed - NASCAR Heat's "Expert Mode" is the piece of Heat that's a peer with GPL. It's an ultra-realistic 3D racing engine, and what's best about it is that it was built from the ground up as a NASCAR engine. NASCAR is a very unique form of racing - that's one of the big reasons that it has taken Papyrus a long time to adapt the GPL engine to a NASCAR game. A couple of really unique things (in relation to GPL) that Heat employs are that all the cars - human and AI - are subject to the same physics model - that makes for a very unique & "level" experience. Also, the AI in Heat is unlike anything else out there, again, to deliver that NASCAR racing (not just driving) experience. We also offer "Normal Mode" which can help to ease people into the game. We add a lot of help to the physics model & we dynamically adapt the AI throughout the race to keep the player in the obligatory NASCAR pack. This may not be the mode that all the PowerSims reader start with, but I bet it's a mode that will help evolve a bunch of other people up to the PowerSims level!" So lets not knock it until we see it - it looks to me as if they are aiming at the sim community too. Karl.

Quoted text (13 lines)

> >On Sun, 7 May 2000 10:21:28 -0400, "dmac43" <[email hidden]> >wrote: >>James, why not wait and see... Remember Microprose has always been one of >>the top SIMULATION developers on the planet Case in point Falcon / GP1/2/and >>now 3, European Air war. I'm willing to wait and see rather than pan >>something that I have as yet not seen. > >Hasbro have made it clear they are not releasing any further >simulations after B-17 II and Gunshit. This points to the obvious fact >that their NASCAR game is going to be arcade smut. Don't hold your >breath. >

Well, Hasbro's releasing Grand Prix 3... ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited http://simcrash.00game.com

James, why not wait and see... Remember Microprose has always been one of the top SIMULATION developers on the planet Case in point Falcon / GP1/2/and now 3, European Air war. I'm willing to wait and see rather than pan something that I have as yet not seen. Thanx, Dmac43 James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > And I quote: > > >In the words of Ed Martin, executive producer of NASCAR Heat, > > "Hasbro Interactive is all about fun for the masses, but existing NASCARgames > out there tend more towards the simulation racing fan; don't get me wrong,those > games are great, but we felt and feel that there's a much larger world out > there." > > "....From the beginning, it focused on making the racing experience funfor just > about anyone who picks it up, and on making it dynamic so it adjusts asthe user > gets better. " > > ".....Expert Mode, in contrast, turns on the simulation-style physics andAI and

Quoted text (7 lines)

> it also opens up more menu options, such as the garage, in certain areas" > > Certain Areas???? WTF? > > > "...........From the outset, Hasbro has looked at racing as sports > entertainment, not just sports simulation. The developers compare NASCAR

Heat's > Beat the Heat challenges to Gran Turismo on the console platform and --oddly

Quoted text (11 lines)

> enough -- Star Wars Episode 1 Racer on the PC. " > > > > Bye bye Nascar Heat, sticking With Papyrus. > > _ > > James Wohlever > [email hidden] > [Posted with Agent 1.8. For info, email [email hidden].]

I was dismayed to hear that this game is basically going to be an arcade game. I was looking forward to buying it if it was anything like VIPER racing. But as usual software companys try to aim for something that is going to appeal to 10 year olds as well as 30 somethings , and they create games that nobody really likes. Either create a great Arcade racer or create a SIM, not this half hearted stuff that we see all of the time. I wish that programmers or people who actually loved and played videogames ran these companies, instead of 40 and 50 year old execs in suits who don't even know what they are selling. They just care about the bottom line, which is understandable, but if you strive to put out an excellent innovative product then there's a good chance that people will find your "jewel" and good profits will be a byproduct. However, most execs look at it backwards, and they try to create games which will have mass appeal because they have focused first on the profits and secondly upon creating a good game as a by product of their search for high profits. Bad games do not benefit them or us as consumers.

On Sat, 06 May 2000 14:54:01 -0400, James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote: >And I quote: > >>In the words of Ed Martin, executive producer of NASCAR Heat, Pretty much what I was expecting anyway. From what I had read, it seemed as though they we leaning to the aracde side, so I'm not disappointed. I had no intention of getting it anway. N4 is a different story though, can't wait for that one! Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

Didn't they say it would be both, arcade and sim? -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends "Loosay2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was dismayed to hear that this game is basically going to be an arcade game. > I was looking forward to buying it if it was anything like VIPER racing. But as > usual software companys try to aim for something that is going to appeal to 10 > year olds as well as 30 somethings , and they create games that nobody really > likes. Either create a great Arcade racer or create a SIM, not this half > hearted stuff that we see all of the time. I wish that programmers or people > who actually loved and played videogames ran these companies, instead of 40 and > 50 year old execs in suits who don't even know what they are selling. They > just care about the bottom line, which is understandable, but if you strive to > put out an excellent innovative product then there's a good chance that people > will find your "jewel" and good profits will be a byproduct. > However, most execs look at it backwards, and they try to create games which > will have mass appeal because they have focused first on the profits and > secondly upon creating a good game as a by product of their search for high > profits. Bad games do not benefit them or us as consumers.

Yes they did. It's amazing how people misread things. The game will be arcade mostly with sim options if you want to go that way with it. BClay Don Burnette <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MdeR4.136636$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (38 lines)

| Didn't they say it would be both, arcade and sim? | | | -- | Don Burnette | Dburn in N3 and Legends | | | "Loosay2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:[email hidden]... | > I was dismayed to hear that this game is basically going to be an arcade | game. | > I was looking forward to buying it if it was anything like VIPER racing. | But as | > usual software companys try to aim for something that is going to appeal | to 10 | > year olds as well as 30 somethings , and they create games that nobody | really | > likes. Either create a great Arcade racer or create a SIM, not this half | > hearted stuff that we see all of the time. I wish that programmers or | people | > who actually loved and played videogames ran these companies, instead of | 40 and | > 50 year old execs in suits who don't even know what they are selling. | They | > just care about the bottom line, which is understandable, but if you | strive to | > put out an excellent innovative product then there's a good chance that | people | > will find your "jewel" and good profits will be a byproduct. | > However, most execs look at it backwards, and they try to create games | which | > will have mass appeal because they have focused first on the profits and | > secondly upon creating a good game as a by product of their search for | high | > profits. Bad games do not benefit them or us as consumers. | |

even if it turned out to be better then N4 wicth I doubt, everyone will stick with N4 because of the superior multiplayer. I don't care how great a game is, It still sucks if you cant't race it in a league with a full field. -- Kevin Anderson [email hidden] --------------------------------------------------- DK-Racing #15 K_Anderson ------------------------------------------------- http://www.awtech.net/ "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MdeR4.136636$[email hidden]... > Didn't they say it would be both, arcade and sim? > > > -- > Don Burnette > Dburn in N3 and Legends > > > "Loosay2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I was dismayed to hear that this game is basically going to be an arcade > game. > > I was looking forward to buying it if it was anything like VIPER racing. > But as > > usual software companys try to aim for something that is going to appeal > to 10 > > year olds as well as 30 somethings , and they create games that nobody > really > > likes. Either create a great Arcade racer or create a SIM, not this half > > hearted stuff that we see all of the time. I wish that programmers or > people > > who actually loved and played videogames ran these companies, instead of > 40 and > > 50 year old execs in suits who don't even know what they are selling. > They > > just care about the bottom line, which is understandable, but if you > strive to > > put out an excellent innovative product then there's a good chance that > people > > will find your "jewel" and good profits will be a byproduct. > > However, most execs look at it backwards, and they try to create games > which > > will have mass appeal because they have focused first on the profits and > > secondly upon creating a good game as a by product of their search for > high > > profits. Bad games do not benefit them or us as consumers. > >

On Sun, 7 May 2000 10:21:28 -0400, "dmac43" <[email hidden]> wrote: >James, why not wait and see... Remember Microprose has always been one of >the top SIMULATION developers on the planet Case in point Falcon / GP1/2/and >now 3, European Air war. I'm willing to wait and see rather than pan >something that I have as yet not seen. Hasbro have made it clear they are not releasing any further simulations after B-17 II and Gunshit. This points to the obvious fact that their NASCAR game is going to be arcade smut. Don't hold your breath.

On 07 May 2000 18:45:22 GMT, [email hidden] (Dan Belcher) wrote: >Well, Hasbro's releasing Grand Prix 3... It was started before Hasbro I believe, and Crammond runs pretty much his own business anyway.

On Sun, 07 May 2000 15:11:15 -0400, James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote: >Barbie Loving Hasbro bought them out and FYI fired the folks who made Falcon 4.0 Um, Barbies are made by Mattel.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote... > On Sun, 07 May 2000 15:11:15 -0400, James Wohlever > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Barbie Loving Hasbro bought them out and FYI fired the folks who made Falcon 4.0 > > Um, Barbies are made by Mattel. > ROTFLOL!

Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote: > Have you ever seen a game that was arcade and sim, *and* a good sim? Well, I'd mention Viper Racing here. Its physics engine was the second best after GPL when it came out, and probably still is. The physics engine of Viper Racing is the only simulation element in it, otherwise it's basically an arcade game, but at least for me it was enough to make it entertaining for quite a while. I think NASCAR Heat might provide entertainment similar to Viper Racing. This, though, isn't as interesting now that NASCAR Racing 4 is in the coming, and looking very promising. J. Sakari Salonen / [email hidden]

In article <8f50bc$4cg$[email hidden]>, "Zolli" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Simon Brown <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: > zLmR4.7813$[email hidden]... > > Have you ever seen a game that was arcade and sim, *and* a good sim? > > Yes: Viper Racing! It provides driving aids for arcade fans (but itisn't a > good arcade game). Agreed! > If you > > want a Nascar sim Papyrus is the only option. Also it took Papyyears and > > millions of dollars to develop it's physics engine, and no otherdeveloper > > is just going to surpass that without years of expertise and a big > > investment of time and money. > > Well, Viper's physics engine is at least at par with N3... Viper's physics engine FAR EXCEEDS N3's physics engine, IMO. > I trust in MGI. I think they will release a game with decent physics,with > "missions" that are more 'fun' than real life races (would you reallywant > to run 1 of those Formula 1 processions for 2 hours on your PC???). > For me there's nothing wrong with it, because when I want to do a'real' > race, I can start N3... I also trust MGI -- I think they're going to blow N4 out of the water. The saving grace for Papy may be that they'll probably leave the game architecture somewhat "accessible," which is how we have been able to see new car shapes, tracks, etc., for older Papy sims. If MGI learns from this and makes Heat as accessible, then all bets could be off. Just think if we could have had a car/track editor for Viper Racing . . . -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <zLmR4.7813$[email hidden]>, "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Have you ever seen a game that was arcade and sim, *and* a good sim? Yes -- Viper Racing first, then SCGT, and now, NFSPU. SCGT's not really one of my favorites, but it definitely fits the arcade/sim genre very well. >If you want a Nascar sim Papyrus is the only option. Also it took >Papy years and millions of dollars to develop it's physics engine, >and no other developer is just going to surpass that without years of >expertise and a big investment of time and money. MGI was founded by former Papy people -- seems to me like like that means they come pre-equipped with the necessary expertise. > Basically, there is only Papyrus, Geoff Crammond and the West Brother >(World Sports Cars) even interested in making motor sports simulations >anymore. You're forgetting Ratbag -- DTR was dead-on when it came to physics modeling of the Late Models on dirt, and Sprints promises to be even more realistic. EA's latest effort with NFSPU shows that they are definitely interested in the simulation aspect -- they already had the arcade market cornered with NFS3/4, so the shift in focus with NFSPU shows that they are not only interested but that they also understand what needs to be done. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Thanks Ed. In this entire thread, I have seen little to no mention of the fact that you used to work for Papy, or that you are are a sim-racer. I, for one, am looking forward to NASCAR Heat, and have confidence that it can be a fantastic title. The single most important issue for sim-racing IMHO is the growth of the fan base. We need more poeple to grow the sport/hobby. It sounds like NH is taking a step in the right direction. The second most important issue IMHO is communication from the developers and studios. When was the last time Papy or someone from Crammond's team posted in RAS? Well done Ed... -/- Walk Walker "Ed Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > All this discussion is great! You know what though, folks, there's > <SNIP> > --ed. > Ed Martin > Executive Producer > Hasbro Interactive

Simon Brown <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: zLmR4.7813$[email hidden]... > Have you ever seen a game that was arcade and sim, *and* a good sim? Yes: Viper Racing! It provides driving aids for arcade fans (but it isn't a good arcade game). If you > want a Nascar sim Papyrus is the only option. Also it took Papy years and > millions of dollars to develop it's physics engine, and no other developer > is just going to surpass that without years of expertise and a big > investment of time and money. Well, Viper's physics engine is at least at par with N3... I trust in MGI. I think they will release a game with decent physics, with "missions" that are more 'fun' than real life races (would you really want to run 1 of those Formula 1 processions for 2 hours on your PC???). For me there's nothing wrong with it, because when I want to do a 'real' race, I can start N3... CU Zolli

Have you ever seen a game that was arcade and sim, *and* a good sim? If you want a Nascar sim Papyrus is the only option. Also it took Papy years and millions of dollars to develop it's physics engine, and no other developer is just going to surpass that without years of expertise and a big investment of time and money. Basically, there is only Papyrus, Geoff Crammond and the West Brother (World Sports Cars) even interested in making motor sports simulations anymore.

Good point. Since I always run Viper racing with realistic physics, i'd completely forgotten that you could scale down the realism. Decent game, Viper racing. I can't see the point of an arcade Nascar game. If the game is arcade, why not have fantasty cars and fantasy tracks and be a proper arcade game. It's not like Nascar is a terribly difficult sport in the first place, so theres little point in making it easier. Anyone can turn down the AI strength in N3 and be able to win races, and the cars are basically easy to drive.

because there are over 100,000 nascar fans <shrug>. IMHO i thought the article was excellent and made a few really pertinent points. It doesnt matter how vehement we are about our chosen sport. The arcade markets are so large that it makes finacial sense to cater to them. If MGI can cater to both sim and arcade crowds, and as Ed said ... that is the easiest way to get more ppl into sims ... then go for it. Shane Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1qnR4.7897$[email hidden]... > Good point. Since I always run Viper racing with realistic physics, i'd > completely forgotten that you could scale down the realism. Decent game, > Viper racing. > I can't see the point of an arcade Nascar game. If the game is arcade,why > not have fantasty cars and fantasy tracks and be a proper arcade game.It's > not like Nascar is a terribly difficult sport in the first place, sotheres > little point in making it easier. > Anyone can turn down the AI strength in N3 and be able to win races, andthe > cars are basically easy to drive. > >

On Sun, 07 May 2000 23:12:31 GMT Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote: % Have you ever seen a game that was arcade and sim, *and* a good sim? If you % want a Nascar sim Papyrus is the only option. Also it took Papy years and % millions of dollars to develop it's physics engine, and no other developer % is just going to surpass that without years of expertise and a big % investment of time and money. % Basically, there is only Papyrus, Geoff Crammond and the West Brother (World % Sports Cars) even interested in making motor sports simulations anymore. You have forgotten Motorsims http://www.motorsims.com/ -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Sun, 07 May 2000 02:07:22 GMT, [email hidden] (Andy) wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>On Sat, 06 May 2000 14:54:01 -0400, James Wohlever ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>And I quote: >> >>>In the words of Ed Martin, executive producer of NASCAR Heat, > >Pretty much what I was expecting anyway. From what I had read, it >seemed as though they we leaning to the aracde side, so I'm not >disappointed. I had no intention of getting it anway. N4 is a >different story though, can't wait for that one! >Andy > >Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

All this discussion is great! You know what though, folks, there's absolutely nothing I can say to change people's minds one way or another. In the end, the only way to make up your own mind is to try it. If you happen to be at E3 this week, I encourage you to drop by the Hasbro booth & try both NASCAR Heat and GP3. I think that you'll find Hasbro is VERY serious & committed to motorsports. If you're not at E3, we'll be releasing a demo this summer and we'll be out in September. --ed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ed Martin Executive Producer Hasbro Interactive

Amen, you took the words right out of my mouth! Andre On Mon, 8 May 2000 09:44:11 -0700, "Walk Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (21 lines)

>Thanks Ed. In this entire thread, I have seen little to no mention of the >fact that you used to work for Papy, or that you are are a sim-racer. I, for >one, am looking forward to NASCAR Heat, and have confidence that it can be a >fantastic title. The single most important issue for sim-racing IMHO is the >growth of the fan base. We need more poeple to grow the sport/hobby. It >sounds like NH is taking a step in the right direction. The second most >important issue IMHO is communication from the developers and studios. When >was the last time Papy or someone from Crammond's team posted in RAS? Well >done Ed... > >-/- Walk Walker > >"Ed Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> All this discussion is great! You know what though, folks, there's >> <SNIP> >> --ed. >> Ed Martin >> Executive Producer >> Hasbro Interactive >

"Ed Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 07 May 2000 02:07:22 GMT, [email hidden] (Andy) wrote: > <SNIP-O> > I think that you'll > find Hasbro is VERY serious & committed to motorsports > > --ed. > Too bad Falcon4 fell into the flight sim category and not the 'VERY serious & committed to...' category. :( > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Ed Martin > Executive Producer > Hasbro Interactive MRSisson

In article <[email hidden]>, James Wohlever <[email hidden]> writes: >Hasbro is nothing but money hungry SOB's No offense, but isn't that what every company wants? To make lots of money? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> > Well, Viper's physics engine is at least at par with N3... > > Viper's physics engine FAR EXCEEDS N3's physics engine, IMO. > IMO too, I was just a little shy... CU Zolli

IMO too, I was just a little shy... CU Zolli

When I said Papyrus I was thinking more of GPL. I agree Viper Racing has better physics than N3. N3 was afterall, a step backwards and (for me) a big disapointment. By the end of this year we should have four genuine simulations, GPL, Nascar 4, World Sports Cars and GP3. I haven't read much about Nascar Heat, so I won't comment on it either way.

On 09 May 2000 23:40:27 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >>Hasbro is nothing but money hungry SOB's >No offense, but isn't that what every company wants? To make lots of money? Yes, but it is not wise business to alienate your paying customers by dropping support of products and trying to sell half-done crap to them.

Papy was great when we had TEN. Now, we have what we have, and frankly I find it borderline useless. With TEN, there was incentive to at least _try_ to drive well, work on the cars so you could win, and progress as a driver. You were graded. You were generally held accountable for your actions. The current N3 multiplayer is nothing more than a warp-filled demolition derby that provides no incentives and in no way rewards those that work hard at improving. The current vision of on-line racing with Nacar 3 is way too much towards "so what, who cares, it's a game". It wasn't like that on TEN. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. -Larry On Sun, 07 May 2000 15:26:11 GMT, "Kevin Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >even if it turned out to be better then N4 wicth I doubt, everyone will >stick with N4 because of the superior multiplayer. I don't care how great a >game is, It still sucks if you cant't race it in a league with a full field.

After hearing about the talent involved in this game, the features, etc... you can actually say this? You won't even give them a chance? Sheesh... Tough crowd :) -Larry On Sat, 06 May 2000 14:54:01 -0400, James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote: >Bye bye Nascar Heat, sticking With Papyrus.

Larry wrote:

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > Papy was great when we had TEN. > > Now, we have what we have, and frankly I find it borderline useless. > > With TEN, there was incentive to at least _try_ to drive well, work on > the cars so you could win, and progress as a driver. You were graded. > You were generally held accountable for your actions. > > The current N3 multiplayer is nothing more than a warp-filled > demolition derby that provides no incentives and in no way rewards > those that work hard at improving. > > The current vision of on-line racing with Nacar 3 is way too much > towards "so what, who cares, it's a game". > > It wasn't like that on TEN. > > Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

AH, but we have more options now ...:-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com