Re: No Specific support for 3dfx....oh boy.....

LOL! Interesting, I didn't realize it was possible to be funny without being offensive. "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Isn't that called the "Costanza Effect"? > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RSYR4.1679$[email hidden]... > > > your best bet would be to pick exactly the > > opposite of what ever direction Papy went. > > > > >

Well, for the game that I'm spending 2 hours per day *competing* in, I wanted the best possible video quality. The V3 image is a little better than the V2's gave me. For games I boot occasionally for fun, I'll accept less than the best. At the time, I thought I had "completed" GPL, so I wouldn't miss the Thriller card. Then along came that darn David Noonan character, with his track converters, that make GPL play a lot more like N4 than N3 does. So now I go back and forth between N3 and GPL, for hours at a time, and wish I still had my Rendition card. BUT, that will all change after May 25th when I get my V5, FSAA baby, no going back to rendition after that! <G> "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:u50S4.1374$[email hidden]...

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> Then why not use the V2s for Nascar 3? > > > "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:CQ_R4.1690$[email hidden]... > > That's what I had my V2's for... > > > > "Cliff Roman" wrote > > > > > I like to play other games as well :) > > > > > > > >

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> >On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:07:47 -0500, "Tracey Miller" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > >>A better question is how many people still would be using Rendition if N3 >>had supported it. I never would have bought my V3 if N3 had supported my >>Thriller card, and GPL looked better in Rendition. >> >same here

ditto Rendition was the greatest card I ever had!!!! I only bought my V3 because Rendition couldn't run N3 , and some other games. I miss Rendition.

> >Of course, a lot of people said that when they realized that dropped >native support for Rendition. It just might be that papy is better at >predicting the future than we are. Who here is still using a Rendition >card for sim racing? Many of my friends and teamates still use their Rendition cards to race!!!!!

Chuck Kandler ([email hidden]) wrote: : Pops wrote: : > Or... : > : > Does my new Voodoo 3 card also support Direct3D? : > I see that my DirectX Diagnosis program says that my Direct3D is showing "No : > problems". : > : > Pops... : No. Your Voodoo3 will do D3D also. But, as F1 2000 shows, D3D is not : as good as Glide. I can see where they wouldn't want to tie themselves : down with just one rasterizer. BUT, it should at least be one of the : options available. With all the Voodoo cards out there in people's : machines, it's not as though they would be putting in support for some : dinosaur card. Big, BIG mistake, Papy..... Actually, Voodoo IS a dinosaur card. No support for textures larger than 256x256, no hardware support for compressed textures, no hardware T&L, .... They cannot compete graphically if they continue to target their games for the Voodoo archictecture. Whether or not you see D3D not as good as Glide varies on the revision of D3D. Direct3D 8 will support shading at the pixel level, a feature which will be hardware supported in the Geforce2 GTS and the ATI Radeon. This is something Voodoo5 will not have. Therefore, Glide will not support this. Therefore, Glide is technically inferior than D3D. GM

In article <H8XR4.23908$[email hidden]>, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Quote from Eric Busch in post above: > > >Actually it will be Direct3D and OpenGL only. > >Eric > >----------------------------------------------------------- > >Given the response to the dropping of Rendition in N3, I don't think this >will be pretty. Most Papy fanatics bought 3dfx to run GPL and N3. Times >change, but how difficult would it be to include a 3dfx renderer as well?? > >Marc.

I'd honestly say it's about time the boys at Papy showed some sense over 3D choice. Why devote the time to one specific renderer? Z. Please remove my_pants when replying.

Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:H8XR4.23908$[email hidden]... > > Actually it will be Direct3D and OpenGL only. > > Eric So what you're saying is that the bucks I just spent on a new Voodoo 3 was just a waste of money? What do I go buy now? Or... Does my new Voodoo 3 card also support Direct3D? I see that my DirectX Diagnosis program says that my Direct3D is showing "No problems". Pops...

Hi Pops, Your Voodoo3 card is DirectX compatible. No need to buy a new video card unless N4 is shown to run superbly on a different card. Jason. Pops wrote:

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> Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:H8XR4.23908$[email hidden]... > > > > > Actually it will be Direct3D and OpenGL only. > > > > Eric > > So what you're saying is that the bucks I just spent on a new Voodoo 3 was > just a waste of money? > > What do I go buy now? > > Or... > > Does my new Voodoo 3 card also support Direct3D? > I see that my DirectX Diagnosis program says that my Direct3D is showing "No > problems". > > Pops...

-- Jason Monds http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL) http://members.home.net/stuff.mondsj/csp - Car Sim Project (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Jason Monds <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi Pops, > > Your Voodoo3 card is DirectX compatible. No need to buy a new video cardunless > N4 is shown to run superbly on a different card. > > Jason. > Thanks Jason... I feel better now. Pops...

Thanks Jason... I feel better now. Pops...

Nevermind... msitake :)

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> It will support Glide... What do you think Direct3D is? > > >> Hi Pops, > > >> Your Voodoo3 card is DirectX compatible. No need to buy a > > >> new video card unless N4 is shown to run superbly on a > > >> different card. > > >Thanks Jason... > > >I feel better now. > > Pops, I would still plan on upgrading your video card when N4 comes out. > > It will support 32-bit color and will not have Glide support, both of > > which means your Voodoo3 card will be pretty much worthless at that > > point (if you want the eye cnady, that is). > > -- > > ========================================================= > > Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > > http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) > > http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html > > DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL > > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > > =========================================================

Of course it supports D3D, and OpenGL !!! :)

That's what I had my V2's for... "Cliff Roman" wrote

Then why not use the V2s for Nascar 3?

Quote from Eric Busch in post above: Actually it will be Direct3D and OpenGL only. Eric "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SiHR4.10017$[email hidden]... > I agree in general that the GeForce 2 GTS is the faster card, but N4will > support Glide (just like GPL), which means it will get an extra 10%speed > boost on a V5. Plus, what did hardware T&L ever do for frame ratesin Quake > 3? ----------------------------------------------------------- Given the response to the dropping of Rendition in N3, I don't think this will be pretty. Most Papy fanatics bought 3dfx to run GPL and N3. Times change, but how difficult would it be to include a 3dfx renderer as well?? Marc. -- **************************************************************************** Marc Collins [email hidden] Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and blame them on other computers. ****************************************************************************

Pops wrote:

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> Or... > > Does my new Voodoo 3 card also support Direct3D? > I see that my DirectX Diagnosis program says that my Direct3D is showing "No > problems". > > Pops...

No. Your Voodoo3 will do D3D also. But, as F1 2000 shows, D3D is not as good as Glide. I can see where they wouldn't want to tie themselves down with just one rasterizer. BUT, it should at least be one of the options available. With all the Voodoo cards out there in people's machines, it's not as though they would be putting in support for some dinosaur card. Big, BIG mistake, Papy..... -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

V3 will do opengl as well Though I always thought of the 3, d3d, OpenGl, and Glide, that glide is the simplest to program for Md Chuck Kandler wrote:

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> > Pops wrote: > > Or... > > > > Does my new Voodoo 3 card also support Direct3D? > > I see that my DirectX Diagnosis program says that my Direct3D is showing "No > > problems". > > > > Pops... > > No. Your Voodoo3 will do D3D also. But, as F1 2000 shows, D3D is not > as good as Glide. I can see where they wouldn't want to tie themselves > down with just one rasterizer. BUT, it should at least be one of the > options available. With all the Voodoo cards out there in people's > machines, it's not as though they would be putting in support for some > dinosaur card. Big, BIG mistake, Papy..... > > -- > Chuck Kandler #70 > K&S Racing > http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 > > Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: > http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! > > They'll call you names > And spit in your face, > But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

"Marc Collins" wrote > Given the response to the dropping of Rendition in N3, I don't think this > will be pretty. Most Papy fanatics bought 3dfx to run GPL and N3. Times > change, but how difficult would it be to include a 3dfx renderer as well?? This shouldn't be a big surprise, since even 3Dfx has conceded that they won't be concentrating on Glide in the future. Some of the new T-buffer features in the V5 cards won't be available through Glide. Hardcore Papy sim fanatics will be upgrading from the V3's they bought to run GPL and N3 anyway, by the time N4 comes out, to get 32 bit color. Those less hardcore probably couldn't tell much difference between a D3D or Glide version regardless.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> >Jason Monds <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... > >> Hi Pops, >> >> Your Voodoo3 card is DirectX compatible. No need to buy a >> new video card unless N4 is shown to run superbly on a >> different card. > >Thanks Jason... > >I feel better now. >

Pops, I would still plan on upgrading your video card when N4 comes out. It will support 32-bit color and will not have Glide support, both of which means your Voodoo3 card will be pretty much worthless at that point (if you want the eye cnady, that is). -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... >Big, BIG mistake, Papy..... Of course, a lot of people said that when they realized that dropped native support for Rendition. It just might be that papy is better at predicting the future than we are. Who here is still using a Rendition card for sim racing? -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

"John Simmons" wrote > Of course, a lot of people said that when they realized that dropped > native support for Rendition. It just might be that papy is better at > predicting the future than we are. Who here is still using a Rendition > card for sim racing? A better question is how many people still would be using Rendition if N3 had supported it. I never would have bought my V3 if N3 had supported my Thriller card, and GPL looked better in Rendition. I agree it's time for Papy to move on, but their jumping back and forth between proprietary API's doesn't impress me as being proof that they predict the future worth a crap. They chose A3D rather than EAX/DirectX which will end up costing me some more money, since Aureal is now extinct.

In article <UsYR4.1678$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I agree it's time for Papy to move on, but their jumping back and forth > between proprietary API's doesn't impress me as being proof that they > predict the future worth a crap. They chose A3D rather than EAX/DirectX > which will end up costing me some more money, since Aureal is now extinct. > D3D (loosely defined) and OpenGL aren't proprietary. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

It will support Glide... What do you think Direct3D is? John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > > >Jason Monds <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > > > >> Hi Pops, > >> > >> Your Voodoo3 card is DirectX compatible. No need to buy a > >> new video card unless N4 is shown to run superbly on a > >> different card. > > > >Thanks Jason... > > > >I feel better now. > > > > Pops, I would still plan on upgrading your video card when N4 comes out. > It will support 32-bit color and will not have Glide support, both of > which means your Voodoo3 card will be pretty much worthless at that > point (if you want the eye cnady, that is). > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html > Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) > http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html > DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Nevermind... msitake :) Sjon Stigter <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8f9ks1$6al$[email hidden]...

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> It will support Glide... What do you think Direct3D is? > > > > John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > > > > >Jason Monds <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:[email hidden]... > > > > > >> Hi Pops, > > >> > > >> Your Voodoo3 card is DirectX compatible. No need to buy a > > >> new video card unless N4 is shown to run superbly on a > > >> different card. > > > > > >Thanks Jason... > > > > > >I feel better now. > > > > > > > Pops, I would still plan on upgrading your video card when N4 comes out. > > It will support 32-bit color and will not have Glide support, both of > > which means your Voodoo3 card will be pretty much worthless at that > > point (if you want the eye cnady, that is). > > > > -- > > ========================================================= > > Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > > http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) > > http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html > > DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL > > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > > ========================================================= > >

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > D3D (loosely defined) and OpenGL aren't proprietary. I know that, I was referring to their jump from Rendition, then back to Glide, prior to finally going D3D/OpenGL. Every technology Papy ever latched on to ends up extinct. I wouldn't go to these guys for stock tips, from Rendition, Glide, A3D, to TEN, your best bet would be to pick exactly the opposite of what ever direction Papy went.

On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:07:47 -0500, "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >A better question is how many people still would be using Rendition if N3 >had supported it. I never would have bought my V3 if N3 had supported my >Thriller card, and GPL looked better in Rendition. >same here

Havent yall heard Glide is DEAD!!!!! With upcoming graphics cards Direct 3d and opengl are going to be far superior than glide. Glide is gone, they made the right choice, Especially since the geforce blows away the voodoo 5 6 on the benchmarks

Your Voodoo3 will work, but it will not use all that N4 is capable of showing. Just like with N3 when Payrus chose the A3d sound format. Those with A3d compatible cards got nifty 3d sound and reflections of the sound. Those who had just sunk a big pile of cash into the SB Live cards..(very very good cards but no A3d) were left with MOST of the 3d sounds but not the reflections. So soon N4 is comming out. Your V3 will run N4, but only in 16 bit color. AND what everyone has missed in this thread so far....N4 will support Transform and Lighting(t&l) which "should" reduce the workload on the main cpu. Unfortunately, your V3 does not have T&L as a hardware accelerated feature. It can do some of that in software, but that just adds to the system's workload again. Furthmore, N4 will feature 32 bit color in addition to T&L. So once again your V3 will be shortchanging you. The new V5 5500's can do 32bit color, but still will be without t&l. The V5's have the nifty fullscreen Anti-Alias(fsaa) feature that will really clean up the screen. But looking at N4's graphics...they don't seem to 'need' much cleaning up. Where does that leave you and your V3? Well probably the biggest question will be...where does that leave you and your CPU? If you are running a slower cpu now...no video card in existence is gonna speed up N4. If you have plenty of other D3d games then any of the GEForce cards will probably do quite nicely...BUT don't run out tomorrow and buy one. The GEforce2 is just becomming available...we need to see just how well that runs. The V5 6000 may be such a brute we won't NEED t&l to speed up N4. But if your a Papy fan....you also may drive GPL. The perfect card for gpl, bar none, is a V3 3500. The only card that could supplant that is the V5's. The newest GeForce can be made to run gpl very well, but that takes work and a few compromises. So here's the deal...WAIT. Save your money..be prepared spend lots but don't run out now for a product that is still 6 months away. We could see 2 different memory types shakout, and cpu's should take a huge jump in performance before the year is out. dave hath spoken.. dave henrie ...spokane wa. Pops wrote:

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> > Jason Monds <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > Hi Pops, > > > > Your Voodoo3 card is DirectX compatible. No need to buy a new video card > unless > > N4 is shown to run superbly on a different card. > > > > Jason. > > > > Thanks Jason... > > I feel better now. > > Pops...

Even if N3 supported Rendition, I would not own one. I like to play other games as well :) "TRUSRS85" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > >On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:07:47 -0500, "Tracey Miller" > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > >>A better question is how many people still would be using Rendition ifN3

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> >>had supported it. I never would have bought my V3 if N3 had supported my > >>Thriller card, and GPL looked better in Rendition. > >> > >same here > > ditto > > Rendition was the greatest card I ever had!!!! > I only bought my V3 because Rendition couldn't run N3 , and some other

games. > I miss Rendition.

That's what I had my V2's for... "Cliff Roman" wrote > I like to play other games as well :)

Supporting Glide as well as D3D and OpenGL isn't as much work as you might think. All three API's are quite similar.

Of course it supports D3D, and OpenGL !!! :)

Then why not use the V2s for Nascar 3? "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CQ_R4.1690$[email hidden]...

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> That's what I had my V2's for... > > "Cliff Roman" wrote > > > I like to play other games as well :) > > >

I agree...it's the jumping back and forth that is the biggest problem. Marc. "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UsYR4.1678$[email hidden]...

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> "John Simmons" wrote > > Of course, a lot of people said that when they realized that dropped > > native support for Rendition. It just might be that papy is better at > > predicting the future than we are. Who here is still using a Rendition > > card for sim racing? > > A better question is how many people still would be using Rendition if N3 > had supported it. I never would have bought my V3 if N3 had supported my > Thriller card, and GPL looked better in Rendition. > > I agree it's time for Papy to move on, but their jumping back and forth > between proprietary API's doesn't impress me as being proof that they > predict the future worth a crap. They chose A3D rather than EAX/DirectX > which will end up costing me some more money, since Aureal is now extinct. > > >

For GPL? I can't afford a separate computer to run GPL and another one for N4. And GPL is useless without 98th percentile or higher frame rates. N4 very well may be the same. Marc. "G_Major" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JeZR4.45023$[email hidden]...

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> Havent yall heard Glide is DEAD!!!!! > > With upcoming graphics cards Direct 3d and opengl are going to be far > superior than glide. Glide is gone, they made the right choice, Especially > since the geforce blows away the voodoo 5 6 on the benchmarks > >

32bit colour.... Well ya know.. I used to own a TNT card, and oops there are alot of games that support 32bit colour, but I could not see the difference in game enough to justify the performance hit. I'd be willing to bet alot of you will resort to good old 16 bit colour to increase your frame rates. Md Marc Collins wrote:

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> > For GPL? I can't afford a separate computer to run GPL and another one for > N4. And GPL is useless without 98th percentile or higher frame rates. N4 > very well may be the same. > > Marc. > > "G_Major" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:JeZR4.45023$[email hidden]... > > Havent yall heard Glide is DEAD!!!!! > > > > With upcoming graphics cards Direct 3d and opengl are going to be far > > superior than glide. Glide is gone, they made the right choice, Especially > > since the geforce blows away the voodoo 5 6 on the benchmarks > > > >

How do you know? <G> "Eric Busch" wrote > Err... no.

On Wed, 10 May 2000 22:32:38 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" [email hidden] wrote: >Wrong answer..... Rendition was chosen before Sierra got into the video >card business..... Set your wayback-machine (via www.deja.com) and find >the truth.... They chose Rendition at the time because if fit the >bill... However, it is possible that the quality of the Papyrus efforts >with Rendition and ICRII convinced Sierra to push the chipset. No need. I'll take your word for it. That leaves it as just a plain old mistake, since the V1000's 2D performance was lousy (especially VGA), and the 3D performance was mediocre. Tim

On Wed, 10 May 2000 15:15:18 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" [email hidden] wrote: >However, their choices were not made based on what hardware, etc. would >make the most money, but which provided the best features, performance, >etc.... In my book they made the right choices, and the majority of the >buying public made the wrong choices..... Sierra was marketing a Rendition card. That's why the NASCAR games and SODA had Rendition-native graphics. They finally relented with the N2 Beta 3Dfx patch. Too bad we never got the one that was promised for SODA. I had a Screamin' 3D and a Monster 3D. I bought the Rendition first, then bought the Monster because it smoked the Rendition at everything. Glide was superior, and the Rendition ran D3D about 30% slower. The V1000 also had some funky D3D artifacting with some games, so I don't really thing the image quality argument fully stands on it's own. I agree with the original poster that Papyrus has usually made the wrong choices, and not the public, basically being a step behind from hardware that was best supported. N3 finally caught up. I'd like to see Glide support in N4, but I'll also admit that D3D has come a very long way and is pretty good now. Tim

> both of which means your Voodoo3 card will be pretty much worthless > at that point (if you want the eye cnady, that is). No, no, no, no, no! (NO! :-) 32-bit is nice but it always comes at a slight price and the difference is only noticeable in large graduated fills...skies usually. I've had a V3 and a TNT2 in my PC and there really is a lot of rubbish talked about the 16/32-bit thing. For general gaming the V3 is a *great* D3D card, often beating the TNT2. A GeForce is a bit faster, but at that price it bl**dy well should be :-) I'm sure nobody with a V3 needs to worry about N4. I'd like to see N4 with a glide option, but time is money and the lack of D3D was, and still is, a problem for GPL. Andrew McP

It was too bad for Rendition, they really did it to themselves. It was great technology, and I think most would agree the picture quality was better. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:IM_R4.1367$[email hidden]... > Even if N3 supported Rendition, I would not own one. > > I like to play other games as well :) > > > "TRUSRS85" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > >On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:07:47 -0500, "Tracey Miller" > > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>A better question is how many people still would be using Rendition if > N3 > > >>had supported it. I never would have bought my V3 if N3 had supported my > > >>Thriller card, and GPL looked better in Rendition. > > >> > > >same here > > > > ditto > > > > Rendition was the greatest card I ever had!!!! > > I only bought my V3 because Rendition couldn't run N3 , and some other > games. > > I miss Rendition. > >

[email hidden] (Zonky) wrote: >I'd honestly say it's about time the boys at Papy showed some sense over 3D >choice. Even though I'm a Voodoo fan, I agree. 3DFX is not the dominant force it once was (and it's entirely there own fault - recent product delays have been attrocious). Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

John Simmons wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > >Big, BIG mistake, Papy..... > > Of course, a lot of people said that when they realized that dropped > native support for Rendition. It just might be that papy is better at > predicting the future than we are. Who here is still using a Rendition > card for sim racing? >

One difference...they aren't MADE anymore. The Voodoo definitely is. And as any *Papy made* GPL fan can tell you, works great. Now they drop support? It's as though they're making us choose between our GPL that we know & love, or N4 which is yet to come. There is very little (comparatively speaking) extra effort to be spent to add a Glide rasterizer to go along with it's D3D and OGL rasterizers. The suit that made this decision needs a course in marketing reality. As an aside, maybe the non-Voodoo GPL fans can also get an improved OGL rasterizer for GPL out of all this. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

G_Major wrote: > > Havent yall heard Glide is DEAD!!!!! > > With upcoming graphics cards Direct 3d and opengl are going to be far > superior than glide. Glide is gone, they made the right choice, Especially > since the geforce blows away the voodoo 5 6 on the benchmarks Benchmarks ain't worth a shit. Drive anything with mirrors, and they fall on their frickin face without a bunch of tweaks! To me, the terms "dead" & "a dinosaur" would refer to a chipset no longer in production. Last I checked, the Voodoo's are alive & well. And kickin major ass in GPL. All we're asking for is *options*, not a single-sighted dedication to one specific API. Geeez... -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

I've been reading articles lately dealing with D3D and OpenGL and they say that OpenGL doesn't update very often but DirectX updates all the time. After seeing that N4 will only Support these two it seems that D3D is starting to finally begin to become a standard thanks to DirectX and Nvidia. Nvidia is clearly in front when it comes to video cards. You can already pick up a Gforce2 at some stores according to a few articles I've been reading on the net and I have yet to even see a Voodoo5 anywhere which in my view is 1 generation behind the Gforce2. I have a Voodoo3 and love it (I also have my Voodoo2 card in the closet and will never throw it away since it's an add-on card). However when N4 comes out I will definitely buy an Nvidia card which at the current rate of production should be on the next generation of card after the Gforce2 where as Voodoo will still be putting out Voodoo6's. Vintook "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3918bbf5$0$[email hidden]...

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> Well, for the game that I'm spending 2 hours per day *competing* in, I > wanted the best possible video quality. The V3 image is a little > better than the V2's gave me. For games I boot occasionally for fun, > I'll accept less than the best. > > At the time, I thought I had "completed" GPL, so I wouldn't miss the > Thriller card. Then along came that darn David Noonan character, with > his track converters, that make GPL play a lot more like N4 than N3 > does. > > So now I go back and forth between N3 and GPL, for hours at a time, > and wish I still had my Rendition card. BUT, that will all change > after May 25th when I get my V5, FSAA baby, no going back to rendition > after that! <G> > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:u50S4.1374$[email hidden]... > > Then why not use the V2s for Nascar 3? > > > > > > "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:CQ_R4.1690$[email hidden]... > > > That's what I had my V2's for... > > > > > > "Cliff Roman" wrote > > > > > > > I like to play other games as well :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I think it's important to remember that nVidia cards were always faster than their 3Dfx counterparts in D3D. But... if a game supported both Glide and D3D, the 3Dfx cards usually had better frame rates running it in Glide than the nVidia run in D3D. Also, new 3Dfx drivers usually mean a performance increase while nVidia's recent history shows that their new drivers *usually* mean a performance hit to make the cards more stable. At any rate, N4 won't be out for 6 months, so the new offerings by 3Dfx and nVidia don't really matter because they'll both be releasing new cards again in 6 months. Personally, I'll try to be strong and refrain from buying a new card now, and wait for the next generation in 6 months. I'll try, but it won't be easy. -- Slot www.slottweak.com Tweaks & Reviews "G_Major" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JeZR4.45023$[email hidden]... > Havent yall heard Glide is DEAD!!!!! > > With upcoming graphics cards Direct 3d and opengl are going to be far > superior than glide. Glide is gone, they made the right choice, Especially > since the geforce blows away the voodoo 5 6 on the benchmarks > >

Your money is almost always better spent upgrading your CPU. For the price of a GeForce, you can buy a Celeron566 and overclock that puppy to 850+. S. Andrew MacPherson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > both of which means your Voodoo3 card will be pretty much worthless > > at that point (if you want the eye cnady, that is). > > No, no, no, no, no! (NO! :-) 32-bit is nice but it always comes at a > slight price and the difference is only noticeable in large graduated > fills...skies usually. I've had a V3 and a TNT2 in my PC and there really > is a lot of rubbish talked about the 16/32-bit thing. For general gaming > the V3 is a *great* D3D card, often beating the TNT2. A GeForce is a bit > faster, but at that price it bl**dy well should be :-) > > I'm sure nobody with a V3 needs to worry about N4. I'd like to see N4 with > a glide option, but time is money and the lack of D3D was, and still is, a > problem for GPL. > > Andrew McP >

In article <8f9ks1$6al$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... >It will support Glide... What do you think Direct3D is? No, N4 will *NOT* be supporting glide. Don't you pay any attention to what the Papy guys say in this newsgroup? D3D and OpenGL are the only two API's it will be using. Direct3D is *NOT* a proprietary (chipset specific) API. Since Glide only works on 3dfx cards, it can be defined as a proprietary (chipset specific) API. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

"Seinfeld" has a lot to blame for! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- > LOL! > Interesting, I didn't realize it was possible to be funny without > being offensive. > > Isn't that called the "Costanza Effect"? > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > your best bet would be to pick exactly the > > > opposite of what ever direction Papy went.

Err... no. Eric it?)...

How do you know? <G> "Eric Busch" wrote

Isn't that called the "Costanza Effect"? -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RSYR4.1679$[email hidden]... > your best bet would be to pick exactly the > opposite of what ever direction Papy went. >

I'll probably be switching again by the time N4 comes out too, or shortly after, ATI has a hot new card coming, as well as Matrox. It's hard to say what the "best" will be in November or December, but right now - for simulations - the V5 is clearly the way to go. "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ek4S4.13903$[email hidden]... > I've been reading articles lately dealing with D3D and OpenGL and they say > that OpenGL doesn't update very often but DirectX updates all the time. > After seeing that N4 will only Support these two it seems that D3D is > starting to finally begin to become a standard thanks to DirectX andNvidia. > Nvidia is clearly in front when it comes to video cards. You can already > pick up a Gforce2 at some stores according to a few articles I've been > reading on the net and I have yet to even see a Voodoo5 anywhere which inmy

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> view is 1 generation behind the Gforce2. I have a Voodoo3 and love it (I > also have my Voodoo2 card in the closet and will never throw it away since > it's an add-on card). However when N4 comes out I will definitely buy an > Nvidia card which at the current rate of production should be on the next > generation of card after the Gforce2 where as Voodoo will still be putting > out Voodoo6's. > > Vintook > > "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3918bbf5$0$[email hidden]... > > Well, for the game that I'm spending 2 hours per day *competing* in, I > > wanted the best possible video quality. The V3 image is a little > > better than the V2's gave me. For games I boot occasionally for fun, > > I'll accept less than the best. > > > > At the time, I thought I had "completed" GPL, so I wouldn't miss the > > Thriller card. Then along came that darn David Noonan character, with > > his track converters, that make GPL play a lot more like N4 than N3 > > does. > > > > So now I go back and forth between N3 and GPL, for hours at a time, > > and wish I still had my Rendition card. BUT, that will all change > > after May 25th when I get my V5, FSAA baby, no going back to rendition > > after that! <G> > > > > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:u50S4.1374$[email hidden]... > > > Then why not use the V2s for Nascar 3? > > > > > > > > > "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:CQ_R4.1690$[email hidden]... > > > > That's what I had my V2's for... > > > > > > > > "Cliff Roman" wrote > > > > > > > > > I like to play other games as well :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Tracey A Miller wrote:

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> > Well, for the game that I'm spending 2 hours per day *competing* in, I > wanted the best possible video quality. The V3 image is a little > better than the V2's gave me. For games I boot occasionally for fun, > I'll accept less than the best. > > At the time, I thought I had "completed" GPL, so I wouldn't miss the > Thriller card. Then along came that darn David Noonan character, with > his track converters, that make GPL play a lot more like N4 than N3 > does. > > So now I go back and forth between N3 and GPL, for hours at a time, > and wish I still had my Rendition card. BUT, that will all change > after May 25th when I get my V5, FSAA baby, no going back to rendition > after that! <G>

The day I installed N99 and found that the 3Dfx version was just as good as the Rendition version was the day I with joy dumped my Hercules Thriller card, it's the 2nd worst card I've owned, beaten only by the Stingray 128 in crappiness, so no, I don't miss my Rendition card :-) Having said that, I haven't been impressed with the Riva cards either, although the GEForce isn't half bad, the only cards I've bee really pleased with in 2D are made by ATI, too bad they're not the hottest thing for gaming, or my vid card "problems" would have been solved long time ago, but hey, that's why we have V2's right ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Chuck Kandler wrote:

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> > One difference...they aren't MADE anymore. The Voodoo definitely is. > And as any *Papy made* GPL fan can tell you, works great. Now they drop > support? It's as though they're making us choose between our GPL that > we know & love, or N4 which is yet to come. There is very little > (comparatively speaking) extra effort to be spent to add a Glide > rasterizer to go along with it's D3D and OGL rasterizers. The suit that > made this decision needs a course in marketing reality. As an aside, > maybe the non-Voodoo GPL fans can also get an improved OGL rasterizer > for GPL out of all this.

..and then there's this thing called V2, with or without SLI :-))), still runs GPL almost as good as most anything else..... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"Goy Larsen wrote > Having said that, I haven't been impressed with the Riva cards either, > although the GEForce isn't half bad, the only cards I've bee really > pleased with in 2D are made by ATI, too bad they're not the hottest > thing for gaming, or my vid card "problems" would have been solved long > time ago, but hey, that's why we have V2's right ? :-) Oh man, I'd completely forgotten what a nightmare the Thriller was in 2D. I guess I only remember the stuff I miss, like more vibrant color in GPL. Oh well, 15 days and counting to FSAA. <G>

On Tue, 09 May 2000 20:22:22 GMT Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip> % So soon N4 is comming out. Your V3 will run N4, but only in 16 bit % color. AND what everyone has missed in this thread so far....N4 will % support Transform and Lighting(t&l) which "should" reduce the workload % on the main cpu. Unfortunately, your V3 does not have T&L as a hardware % accelerated feature. It can do some of that in software, but that just % adds to the system's workload again. I haven't been following all of the video card developments, so I am trying to figure out how you "know" N4 will support T&L.... Papy said D3D and OpenGL, but I never saw them say T&L or supporting any specific video chip... % Furthmore, N4 will feature 32 bit color in addition to T&L. So once % again your V3 will be shortchanging you. The new V5 5500's can do 32bit % color, but still will be without t&l. The V5's have the nifty % fullscreen Anti-Alias(fsaa) feature that will really clean up the % screen. But looking at N4's graphics...they don't seem to 'need' much % cleaning up. You are also seeing a "compressed" screenshot...... Pure speculation? % Where does that leave you and your V3? Well probably the biggest % question will be...where does that leave you and your CPU? If you are % running a slower cpu now...no video card in existence is gonna speed up % N4. Not true, I thought that video cards with on board processing and things like onboard T&L help relieve the load on the CPU.... <snip> -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Tue, 09 May 2000 17:18:31 GMT Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> wrote: % No. Your Voodoo3 will do D3D also. But, as F1 2000 shows, D3D is not % as good as Glide. I can see where they wouldn't want to tie themselves % down with just one rasterizer. BUT, it should at least be one of the % options available. With all the Voodoo cards out there in people's % machines, it's not as though they would be putting in support for some % dinosaur card. Big, BIG mistake, Papy..... If programmed correctly D3D can come very close to Glide (see NFS:PU for proof -- not F1 2000). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Tracey Miller wrote: > > Oh man, I'd completely forgotten what a nightmare the Thriller was in 2D. I > guess I only remember the stuff I miss, like more vibrant color in GPL. Oh > well, 15 days and counting to FSAA. <G> LOL, nightmare doesn't even cover it Looking forward to see some user reviews on the V5's.....but I have a feeling I may be going with ATI next time, the one's I've had so far has been so user friendly compared to most other cards, messing around with computers all the day in the shop, doing the same when I come home when all I want to do is race, isn't my idea of fun really, that's why I hardly ever OC anymore either, I just wanna race :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:07:47 -0500 Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote: % I agree it's time for Papy to move on, but their jumping back and forth % between proprietary API's doesn't impress me as being proof that they % predict the future worth a crap. They chose A3D rather than EAX/DirectX % which will end up costing me some more money, since Aureal is now extinct. Which is why it makes sense to support D3D and OpenGL with N4.... No chip specific hardcoded support. If coded properly and effeciently, with faster CPU's and video cards, they made the correct choice. Especially since you point out that Papy has usually chosen the correct hardware to support (for features and speed, etc.), but end up backing the dinosaur hardware in the end (Rendition, A3d, etc.).... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:35:28 -0500 Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote: % I know that, I was referring to their jump from Rendition, then back to % Glide, prior to finally going D3D/OpenGL. Every technology Papy ever latched % on to ends up extinct. I wouldn't go to these guys for stock tips, from % Rendition, Glide, A3D, to TEN, your best bet would be to pick exactly the % opposite of what ever direction Papy went. However, their choices were not made based on what hardware, etc. would make the most money, but which provided the best features, performance, etc.... In my book they made the right choices, and the majority of the buying public made the wrong choices..... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"\"Michael E. Carver\" mcarver"@teleport.com wrote: > > However, their choices were not made based on what hardware, etc. would > make the most money, but which provided the best features, performance, > etc.... In my book they made the right choices, and the majority of the > buying public made the wrong choices..... Lemme guess, you have a Beta VCR stashed somewhere ? :-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

True, I support their decision to finally drop the proprietary API's. The point of my post was that it is revisionist history to say that Papy has been expert prognosticators of the future, because they finally dropped Rendition support after Rendition had already gone under. Papy has a long history of going with the best technology, which almost never ends up being the winning technology in the marketplace, as Microsoft has proven time and time again. "Michael E. Carver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:50fS4.7648$[email hidden]... > On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:07:47 -0500 Tracey Miller <[email hidden]>wrote: > > % I agree it's time for Papy to move on, but their jumping back and forth > % between proprietary API's doesn't impress me as being proof that they > % predict the future worth a crap. They chose A3D rather than EAX/DirectX > % which will end up costing me some more money, since Aureal is nowextinct.

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> > Which is why it makes sense to support D3D and OpenGL with N4.... No > chip specific hardcoded support. If coded properly and effeciently, > with faster CPU's and video cards, they made the correct choice. > Especially since you point out that Papy has usually chosen the correct > hardware to support (for features and speed, etc.), but end up backing > the dinosaur hardware in the end (Rendition, A3d, etc.).... > > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"\"Michael E. Carver\" mcarver"@teleport.com wrote: <Snip> > In my book they made the right choices, and the majority of the > buying public made the wrong choices..... > Hmmmm...I thought that intelligent producers made products based upon what the public had/wanted. Guess I was wrong. ;-) -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

Hi MEC I got the info about T&L from Eric Busch. Either here or on Jacob's N3 server. Yes, most of my post is complete and utter PURE SPECULATION. Looking at what Papyrus has released...I don't see FSAA making a big impact, if there is NOT an AA in the screenshots, I don't think they need it.....but....The big 'leap of faith' here is trying to find out what kind of system Papyrus is using to capture these images. Since I and I asume almost everyone but perhaps the BlackHole Motorsports guys, probably doesn't know what Papy is using for these screen shots, we can't do anything more than guess at what kind of system specs we will need to run this thing. I'm thinking CPU power will play a huge part in how well N4 runs, based mainly on our experience with GPL. That is where I came up with the last part of my statement. If you have an older PII or worse, then the latest greatest vid cards won't have enough juice to speed up N4 to a reasonable level. This looks like a double upgrade year, cpu AND vidcard.(faster memory willprobably also be nice...) dave henrie "\"Michael E. Carver\" mcarver"@teleport.com wrote:

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> > On Tue, 09 May 2000 20:22:22 GMT Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > <snip> > % So soon N4 is comming out. Your V3 will run N4, but only in 16 bit > % color. AND what everyone has missed in this thread so far....N4 will > % support Transform and Lighting(t&l) which "should" reduce the workload > % on the main cpu. Unfortunately, your V3 does not have T&L as a hardware > % accelerated feature. It can do some of that in software, but that just > % adds to the system's workload again. > > I haven't been following all of the video card developments, so I am > trying to figure out how you "know" N4 will support T&L.... Papy said > D3D and OpenGL, but I never saw them say T&L or supporting any specific > video chip... > > % Furthmore, N4 will feature 32 bit color in addition to T&L. So once > % again your V3 will be shortchanging you. The new V5 5500's can do 32bit > % color, but still will be without t&l. The V5's have the nifty > % fullscreen Anti-Alias(fsaa) feature that will really clean up the > % screen. But looking at N4's graphics...they don't seem to 'need' much > % cleaning up. > > You are also seeing a "compressed" screenshot...... Pure speculation? > > % Where does that leave you and your V3? Well probably the biggest > % question will be...where does that leave you and your CPU? If you are > % running a slower cpu now...no video card in existence is gonna speed up > % N4. > > Not true, I thought that video cards with on board processing and things > like onboard T&L help relieve the load on the CPU.... > > <snip> > > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

3 LETTERS!! AOL Md Chuck Kandler wrote:

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> > "\"Michael E. Carver\" mcarver"@teleport.com wrote: > > <Snip> > > In my book they made the right choices, and the majority of the > > buying public made the wrong choices..... > > > > Hmmmm...I thought that intelligent producers made products based upon > what the public had/wanted. Guess I was wrong. ;-) > > -- > Chuck Kandler #70 > K&S Racing > http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 > > Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: > http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! > > They'll call you names > And spit in your face, > But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

Was a big mistake on 3Dfx's part dropping the Addon cards IMO They would be selling addon cards to all the tnt geforce owners out there for their old glide games and F1 2000 My thots... Md "\"Michael E. Carver\" mcarver"@teleport.com wrote:

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> > On Tue, 09 May 2000 17:18:31 GMT Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> wrote: > > % No. Your Voodoo3 will do D3D also. But, as F1 2000 shows, D3D is not > % as good as Glide. I can see where they wouldn't want to tie themselves > % down with just one rasterizer. BUT, it should at least be one of the > % options available. With all the Voodoo cards out there in people's > % machines, it's not as though they would be putting in support for some > % dinosaur card. Big, BIG mistake, Papy..... > > If programmed correctly D3D can come very close to Glide (see NFS:PU for > proof -- not F1 2000). > > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Wouldn't it (in theory) be possible just to tweak the GPL 3dFX rasterizer and dump it into the N4 directory (and possibly the other way around for the D3D rasterizer?), maybe just needing tweaks for colors (or would it?)... -- Kirk Lane [email hidden] ICQ: 28171652 AIM: Kirker64 "The time has come for me to kill this game Now open wide and say my name" - "Space Lord", Monster Magnet Zonky <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8f9f3r$839$[email hidden]... > In article <H8XR4.23908$[email hidden]>, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Quote from Eric Busch in post above: > > > > > >Actually it will be Direct3D and OpenGL only. > > > >Eric > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Given the response to the dropping of Rendition in N3, I don't think this > >will be pretty. Most Papy fanatics bought 3dfx to run GPL and N3. Times > >change, but how difficult would it be to include a 3dfx renderer as well?? > > > >Marc. > > I'd honestly say it's about time the boys at Papy showed some sense over 3D > choice. > > Why devote the time to one specific renderer? > > Z. > > > Please remove my_pants when replying.

On Wed, 10 May 2000 13:30:32 -0400 Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote: Wrong answer..... Rendition was chosen before Sierra got into the video card business..... Set your wayback-machine (via www.deja.com) and find the truth.... They chose Rendition at the time because if fit the bill... However, it is possible that the quality of the Papyrus efforts with Rendition and ICRII convinced Sierra to push the chipset. % Sierra was marketing a Rendition card. That's why the NASCAR games and % SODA had Rendition-native graphics. They finally relented with the N2 % Beta 3Dfx patch. Too bad we never got the one that was promised for % SODA. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Err... no. Eric "Kirk Lane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8fcnu8$mh7$[email hidden]... > Wouldn't it (in theory) be possible just to tweak the GPL 3dFXrasterizer > and dump it into the N4 directory (and possibly the other way aroundfor the > D3D rasterizer?), maybe just needing tweaks for colors (or wouldit?)...

On Thu, 11 May 2000 15:29:48 -0700, "Kirk Lane" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> That leaves it as just a plain old mistake, since the V1000's 2D >> performance was lousy (especially VGA), and the 3D performance was >> mediocre. > >V1000? 2D? The V1000 had no 2D!!! Just like the V2, it was a drop-in card >that sat next to your old video card! My guess is you must be thinking >about that POS combo card they made for a while, sorta like the >Banshee...what was it, the Rush? That reeked to high heaven. The first >good combo Voodoo card was the Voodoo3.

The V1000 was the first Rendition card, Kirk. 3Dfx didn't use designations like that back then. They didn't even market their cards. Tim

"\"Michael E. Carver\" mcarver"@teleport.com wrote:

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> > On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:07:47 -0500 Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote: > > % I agree it's time for Papy to move on, but their jumping back and forth > % between proprietary API's doesn't impress me as being proof that they > % predict the future worth a crap. They chose A3D rather than EAX/DirectX > % which will end up costing me some more money, since Aureal is now extinct. > > Which is why it makes sense to support D3D and OpenGL with N4.... No > chip specific hardcoded support. If coded properly and effeciently, > with faster CPU's and video cards, they made the correct choice. > Especially since you point out that Papy has usually chosen the correct > hardware to support (for features and speed, etc.), but end up backing > the dinosaur hardware in the end (Rendition, A3d, etc.)....

Considering how many if (3dcard_XY) { ... } else { ... } blocks are contained in current D3D code because of bugs in D3D drivers, additionally implementing a clean Glide version of a game is still a good thing, esp. considering the number of 3dfx cards out there. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Tracey A Miller wrote: > > How do you know? > > <G> <VBG> dh > > "Eric Busch" wrote > > Err... no.

ROFLMAO! On Wed, 10 May 2000 20:24:38 -0500, "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>How do you know? > > ><G> > > >"Eric Busch" wrote >> Err... no. > >

"Seinfeld" has a lot to blame for! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Tracey A Miller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3918bc3d$0$[email hidden]... > LOL! > > Interesting, I didn't realize it was possible to be funny without > being offensive. > > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Isn't that called the "Costanza Effect"? > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:RSYR4.1679$[email hidden]... > > > > > your best bet would be to pick exactly the > > > opposite of what ever direction Papy went. > > > > > > > > > > >

Tracey A Miller wrote:

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> > How do you know? > > <G> > > "Eric Busch" wrote > > Err... no.

Ouch...:-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

> How do you know? > <G> <VBG> dh

Perhaps it's because he works for Papy ;) -- Ian Parker == Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tracey A Miller wrote: > > > > How do you know? > > > > <G> > > > > "Eric Busch" wrote > > > Err... no. > > Ouch...:-))) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > >

> That leaves it as just a plain old mistake, since the V1000's 2D > performance was lousy (especially VGA), and the 3D performance was > mediocre. V1000? 2D? The V1000 had no 2D!!! Just like the V2, it was a drop-in card that sat next to your old video card! My guess is you must be thinking about that POS combo card they made for a while, sorta like the Banshee...what was it, the Rush? That reeked to high heaven. The first good combo Voodoo card was the Voodoo3. -- Kirk Lane [email hidden] ICQ: 28171652 AIM: Kirker64 "The time has come for me to kill this game Now open wide and say my name" - "Space Lord", Monster Magnet Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

In message <dD_R4.11126$[email hidden]> "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Supporting Glide as well as D3D and OpenGL isn't as much work as you > might think. All three API's are quite similar. So why does the Grand Prix Legends OpenGL rasterizer run like a blocked drain when compared to the Voodoo and Rendition rasterizers? -- Richard. "I've got to admit it's getting better."

In message <[email hidden]> Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Pops wrote: > > > > Does my new Voodoo 3 card also support Direct3D? I see that my DirectX > > Diagnosis program says that my Direct3D is showing "No problems". > > No. Your Voodoo3 will do D3D also. But, as F1 2000 shows, D3D is not > as good as Glide.

I disagree. F1 2000 runs slowly because it is poorly programmed. > I can see where they wouldn't want to tie themselves down with just one > rasterizer. BUT, it should at least be one of the options available. > With all the Voodoo cards out there in people's machines, it's not as > though they would be putting in support for some dinosaur card. Big, BIG > mistake, Papy..... The Direct3D API is what 99.9% of new games aim for, and what 99.9% of reasonable 3D accelerators support. The main OSs, Win 9x and 2000 also support Direct3D. Do developers have any choice? No. Papy will have learned from GPL that it is a mistake to go for a proprietary system (e.g. Glide) and so they need to keep things as open as possible. -- Richard. "I wanna hold your hand, I wanna hold your hand."

Organization: San Francisco State University Distribution: X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.csus01] Kirk Lane ([email hidden]) wrote: : > That leaves it as just a plain old mistake, since the V1000's 2D : > performance was lousy (especially VGA), and the 3D performance was : > mediocre. : V1000? 2D? The V1000 had no 2D!!! Just like the V2, it was a drop-in card : that sat next to your old video card! My guess is you must be thinking : about that POS combo card they made for a while, sorta like the : Banshee...what was it, the Rush? That reeked to high heaven. The first : good combo Voodoo card was the Voodoo3. You must have mistakened the V1000 for the Voodoo. The V1000 is the internal name of Rendition's first Verite chip, much like NV4 is TNT. GM

Well my V1000 from Rendition had 2D and it's 3D was the best there was for a short while before the Voodoo 1 cards came out. Steve "Kirk Lane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ffc6f$gog$[email hidden]... > > That leaves it as just a plain old mistake, since the V1000's 2D > > performance was lousy (especially VGA), and the 3D performance was > > mediocre. > > V1000? 2D? The V1000 had no 2D!!! Just like the V2, it was a drop-incard

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> that sat next to your old video card! My guess is you must be thinking > about that POS combo card they made for a while, sorta like the > Banshee...what was it, the Rush? That reeked to high heaven. The first > good combo Voodoo card was the Voodoo3. > > -- > Kirk Lane > [email hidden] > ICQ: 28171652 > AIM: Kirker64 > > "The time has come for me to kill this game > Now open wide and say my name" > - "Space Lord", Monster Magnet > Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >

Richard Walker wrote: > I disagree. F1 2000 runs slowly because it is poorly programmed. We could argue this, but there'd be no benefit. Suffice it to say that with a Glide patch, it'd run faster than it does now. Disagree?

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> > > I can see where they wouldn't want to tie themselves down with just one > > rasterizer. BUT, it should at least be one of the options available. > > With all the Voodoo cards out there in people's machines, it's not as > > though they would be putting in support for some dinosaur card. Big, BIG > > mistake, Papy..... > > The Direct3D API is what 99.9% of new games aim for, and what 99.9% > of reasonable 3D accelerators support. The main OSs, Win 9x and 2000 also > support Direct3D. > > Do developers have any choice? No. > > Papy will have learned from GPL that it is a mistake to go for a > proprietary system (e.g. Glide) and so they need to keep things as open as > possible.

Agreed. There is no reason for a company to tie themselves solely to any proprietary API. But to not include it as one *option*, they are then in a way turning their backs on legions of their faithful followers, many of whom own Voodoo3 cards. And as many other posts here tonight show, there are a lot of these same Voodoo3 owners drooling at the prospect of upgrading to the V5. From a PR standpoint, I still say their poised with a woody in their hands. ;-) Not many here are looking for Glide-only. Are we unreasonable in asking for D3D, OpenGL AND Glide? -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

In message <[email hidden]> Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> wrote: > Richard Walker wrote: > > > I disagree. F1 2000 runs slowly because it is poorly programmed. > > We could argue this, but there'd be no benefit. Suffice it to say that > with a Glide patch, it'd run faster than it does now. Disagree? It *may* run *slightly* faster. Of course, since F1 2000 seems to be so poorly programmed w.r.t. graphics, who says they could produce a good Glide rasterizer?! They could make one which is worse than the D3D one! :-) Technically, Glide will be slightly faster, simply because of the way the APIs work:

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|-------------------|--------------------|--------------------| | | | | | Direct3D | OpenGL | | | | | | |-------------------|--------------------| Glide | | | | | Microsoft DirectX abstraction layer | | | | | |----------------------------------------|--------------------| | | | The 3D hardware | | | |-------------------------------------------------------------|

Glide goes through less hardware abstraction code than Direct3D or OpenGL, hence the possibility of a slight speed advantage. Of course, as Direct3D software *and* hardware improves, this is reduced. Don't the NVidia boards out-perform 3dfx ones with D3D? Wouldn't that make the difference? > > Papy will have learned from GPL that it is a mistake to go for a > > proprietary system (e.g. Glide) and so they need to keep things as open > > as possible. > > Agreed. There is no reason for a company to tie themselves solely to > any proprietary API. Absolutely. > But to not include it as one *option*, they are then in a way turning > their backs on legions of their faithful followers, many of whom own > Voodoo3 cards. Bot they are not turning their backs on you. Your Voodoo cards will run the Direct3D version without problems. > Are we unreasonable in asking for D3D, OpenGL AND Glide? As far as a developer will see things, yes, you are. They can have 100% compatibility with Direct3D, since any graphics card on the market today supports Direct3D. With Glide, and to a lesser extent OpenGL, the figures are not 100%, so why should they pour all this extra effort in? *If* 3dfx cards were Glide-only (no Direct3D) and they shared the market, say, 50% with all the D3D-cards (NVidia, Matrox, ATI...) then a developer would certainly have to produce Glide and D3D versions, but at the moment, they can just do a D3D version, and catch 100% of the market. -- Richard. "I'm back in the U.S.S.R. You don't know how lucky you are boy."

HE IS talking about the Voodoo 3 - 1000 Which IS a combo card Ash Kirk Lane <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ffc6f$gog$[email hidden]... | > That leaves it as just a plain old mistake, since the V1000's 2D | > performance was lousy (especially VGA), and the 3D performance was | > mediocre. | | V1000? 2D? The V1000 had no 2D!!! Just like the V2, it was a drop-incard

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| that sat next to your old video card! My guess is you must be thinking | about that POS combo card they made for a while, sorta like the | Banshee...what was it, the Rush? That reeked to high heaven. The first | good combo Voodoo card was the Voodoo3. | | -- | Kirk Lane | [email hidden] | ICQ: 28171652 | AIM: Kirker64 | | "The time has come for me to kill this game | Now open wide and say my name" | - "Space Lord", Monster Magnet | Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:[email hidden]... | |

Richard Walker wrote:

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> > In message <[email hidden]> > Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Richard Walker wrote: > > > > > I disagree. F1 2000 runs slowly because it is poorly programmed. > > > > We could argue this, but there'd be no benefit. Suffice it to say that > > with a Glide patch, it'd run faster than it does now. Disagree? > > It *may* run *slightly* faster. Of course, since F1 2000 seems to be so > poorly programmed w.r.t. graphics, who says they could produce a good Glide > rasterizer?! They could make one which is worse than the D3D one! :-)

Hehe. I'm not going there! ;-) > > Technically, Glide will be slightly faster, simply because of the way the > APIs work: Thank you.

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> > |-------------------|--------------------|--------------------| > | | | | > | Direct3D | OpenGL | | > | | | | > |-------------------|--------------------| Glide | > | | | > | Microsoft DirectX abstraction layer | | > | | | > |----------------------------------------|--------------------| > | | > | The 3D hardware | > | | > |-------------------------------------------------------------| > > Glide goes through less hardware abstraction code than Direct3D or OpenGL, > hence the possibility of a slight speed advantage. Of course, as Direct3D > software *and* hardware improves, this is reduced. Don't the NVidia boards > out-perform 3dfx ones with D3D? Wouldn't that make the difference?

Maybe. More likely any performance gain would be due to D3D being one of NVidia's main focuses. Glide is 3dfx's main focus, with D3D compatibility also tacked on. Since Glide does work so much better, they rightfully focus in more on that. Small wonder there could be a performance gap there.(D3D) ;-)

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> > > > Papy will have learned from GPL that it is a mistake to go for a > > > proprietary system (e.g. Glide) and so they need to keep things as open > > > as possible. > > > > Agreed. There is no reason for a company to tie themselves solely to > > any proprietary API. > > Absolutely. > > > But to not include it as one *option*, they are then in a way turning > > their backs on legions of their faithful followers, many of whom own > > Voodoo3 cards. > > Bot they are not turning their backs on you. Your Voodoo cards will run > the Direct3D version without problems.

Technically correct. But I have yet to see, in any of my games that have both D3D & Glide versions, any instances of D3D either performing or appearing better than it's Glide counterpart. And usually it's not even close. So, yes we'll be able to run it. But it'll likely be a lot slower & uglier than it has to be.

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> > > Are we unreasonable in asking for D3D, OpenGL AND Glide? > > As far as a developer will see things, yes, you are. > > They can have 100% compatibility with Direct3D, since any graphics card on > the market today supports Direct3D. > > With Glide, and to a lesser extent OpenGL, the figures are not 100%, so why > should they pour all this extra effort in? > > *If* 3dfx cards were Glide-only (no Direct3D) and they shared the market, > say, 50% with all the D3D-cards (NVidia, Matrox, ATI...) then a developer > would certainly have to produce Glide and D3D versions, but at the moment, > they can just do a D3D version, and catch 100% of the market. >

Sorry. Definitely gotta disagree here. Almost seems related to Michael Carver's posting of yesterday which was something on the order of: "Papy made the right decision. The buying public made the mistake." Somehow, that just seems all too backwards. Any company, in order to get the Consumers to part with their Money, has to decide what this target Buying Public group has/wants. The better they provide to this, the more likely they are to make sales/the more successful their product is likely to be. Well, in this instance, after GPL, N3 & NL, there is a large crowd out there that Papy has the attention of. And the vast majority of them have V3's, and many of them will soon have V5's. So now they (Papy) wanna forego a *little* extra effort to help them along here and instead just give their product enough support that it'll just run on their card instead? Of course, they can. They're the manufacturer. But some of us are trying to point out, while maybe there's still time, that this is a shortsighted move on their part. Smells of either arrogance, or of some suits that don't know any better making some decisions in areas they should have left alone. Just my .02, although it's only worth what you paid for it! ;-) -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

Ian P wrote: > > Perhaps it's because he works for Papy ;) Like someone stated in another thread, it's a joke carried over from N3.discussion... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Good retort!!! :) Marc. "Martyn Danby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> 3 LETTERS!! > > > AOL > > > Md > > Chuck Kandler wrote: > > > > "\"Michael E. Carver\" mcarver"@teleport.com wrote: > > > > <Snip> > > > In my book they made the right choices, and the majority of the > > > buying public made the wrong choices..... > > > > > > > Hmmmm...I thought that intelligent producers made products based upon > > what the public had/wanted. Guess I was wrong. ;-) > > > > -- > > Chuck Kandler #70 > > K&S Racing > > http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 > > > > Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: > > http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! > > > > They'll call you names > > And spit in your face, > > But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

Richard Walker wrote: > > > > They can have 100% compatibility with Direct3D, since any graphics card on > the market today supports Direct3D. Going back to the Longbow Days of flightsimming. Origin had to make separate D3d .exe files for several different video cards. (after the patch process, not the out of the box original) Just because a card supports D3D does not mean it can use the exact bunch of code another card uses.

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> > With Glide, and to a lesser extent OpenGL, the figures are not 100%, so why > should they pour all this extra effort in? > > *If* 3dfx cards were Glide-only (no Direct3D) and they shared the market, > say, 50% with all the D3D-cards (NVidia, Matrox, ATI...) then a developer > would certainly have to produce Glide and D3D versions, but at the moment, > they can just do a D3D version, and catch 100% of the market.

They have been criticized in the past for ignoring the "other" part of the market, users of ATI, Matrox, and to some extent Nvidia have all had problems running Papy sims. So now they have made the effort to reach out to these other systems and we give'm hell. Why? Perhaps the last product best shows the frustration of 3dfx owners. N3 does both D3d AND Glide. The users who have access to both almost unanimously agree the 3dfx version looks & runs better. And the Nvidia users have reported HUGE 33% frame-rate losses when using features like the F2-enter realtime track position pit board. Now you could argue just don't use that particular feature, but it really helps out in situations after a crash where you are going slow. You can keep an eye out for fastmovers approaching and not be suprised and/or forced into a desperate maneuver. So you have the old Beta/VHS thing all over again. 3dfx users feel they have a superior product based on previous versions of N99/N3. They would like to be able to continue to use that superiority into the future. What they are probably overlooking is the new(improved?) features that D3D and perhaps OpenGl will bring to N4. The winners are those who have never purchased a separate 3d card in the past, using whatever came in thier systems. The LOSERS are those, especially GPL users, who have customized their systems to run Papyrus Products at maximum efficiency. Some of these users now face the 3rd "forced" change of Video products to continue getting maximum from their purchase of a Papyrus program. N99 and GPL kept the Rendition option, N3 dropped that. Now N4 abandons Glide. I suspect by N6, OpenGL will also be dropped. dave henrie > > -- > Richard. > > "I'm back in the U.S.S.R. You don't know how lucky you are boy."

I just read that thread, but that was about a day too late for me to not post this one <G> -- Ian Parker == Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ian P wrote: > > > > Perhaps it's because he works for Papy ;) > > Like someone stated in another thread, it's a joke carried over from > N3.discussion... > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Ian P wrote: > > I just read that thread, but that was about a day too late for me to not > post this one <G> LOL, still a good one.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Did you do anything special to get your Voodoo 2 to work well in NR1999? I find that I get a very choppy frame rate when going round corners? I actually get a better frame rate in software mode. Any ideas for getting this fixed? Chris In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: > >The day I installed N99 and found that the 3Dfx version wasjust as good >as the Rendition version was the day I with joy dumped myHercules >Thriller card, it's the 2nd worst card I've owned, beaten onlyby the >Stingray 128 in crappiness, so no, I don't miss my Renditioncard :-) > >Having said that, I haven't been impressed with the Riva cardseither, >although the GEForce isn't half bad, the only cards I've beereally >pleased with in 2D are made by ATI, too bad they're not thehottest >thing for gaming, or my vid card "problems" would have beensolved long >time ago, but hey, that's why we have V2's right ? :-) > > >Beers and cheers >(uncle) Goy > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

Because Glide was designed specifically for 3dfx cards, and likewise for the Rendition API. Also there's bugs in most OpenGL drivers. Anyway, I was talking about their similarities from a programming perspective, which has nothing to do with performance.