Re: Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

It is sad that Papy will not do anything but Nascar programs. Don't get me wrong because I like Nascar but not only Nascar. Papy seems to forget that it was their Indy programs, years ago, put them in business. Papy is my favorite producer of race programs because I feel they put out a great, well thought out product. But since Nascar 2 and Indycar 2, GPL is the only program that they have really shown their talent with. Nascar 3 was just a rehash of Nascar 2 once they dropped the use of GPL physics. So really, Papy, who is considered by many as the best creator of race games, has only given but one new game in the last few years. Grand Prix Legends. The Nascar series has not been the major leap as was GPL. Papy could create many, many buyable race games if they did just this one thing: Create every race game with the absolute best physics model possible. This would satisfy Papy's desire for a great product as well as a few people who desire the best. Then...either dummy up this physics model for all the others or maybe even offer two installation products on the same CD. I like GPL physics the way it is but if it would have had enough dummy physics sliders available, everybody would have bought that game. The way it has been with Papy AFTER the GPL sales disaster is that they are afraid to use completely true physics in futer sims when in reality, it does not have to be that way. Offer both for everyone to choice from. Over and out. > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return onthere

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> investments here lately. > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for > around 2 years now for all practical purposes. > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy > mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets > again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for > Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project. > > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims > that anything else would require a massive ground up development project > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title. > > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they > could easily do with that in no particular order is: > > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing" > from the work of the guys at the Pits site. > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to

GPL2

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> is not beyond reason. > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here. > > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy > stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable > future. > > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts

that

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> anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity. > > Borut Srebotnik <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or

Cart > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games > from > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot oftime > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite > hight > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be ahuge

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> > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? > > > > Borut > > > > > >

On Wed, 10 May 2000 23:16:49 +0200, "Borut Srebotnik" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the >near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart >sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games from >EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time >and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite hight >to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge >hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2?

You have to be in the US to understand. F1 is really a fringe sport here in the U.S. It's televised, sometimes live if the schedule permits, but there is never a big deal made of it. CART is more popular, with some big US based sponsors, but it's still not what it used to be. Bigger crowds turn out for National drag events than CART races. It's been said hundreds of times, but the CART/IRL split really knocked the wind out of CART. IRL races are mostly ghost towns, so they didn't accomplish anything, either. NASCAR is HUGE! There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it. 4 Different channels competing for rights to show it. One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another channel has rights to the race... You get the idea. Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or F1 sim. The US RAS guys like me probably aren't a great representation of the NASCAR fanaticism in the US. I love to catch Rallies, Touring Cars, or F1 on TV, the average NASCAR fan doesn't. You really need to pay attention to see F1, and it's a miracle to catch Rally stuff more than a few times a year (I don't have Speedvision). I'm also a complete motorcycle fanatic, and soak up all the Supercross and National action I can, and can't wait to get Speedvision so I can watch the MXGP's. I like the NASCAR sims for online racing. The ovals make for fun, accessible multi-player. I'm really looking forward to both Heat and N4, even though I'm not a huge NASCAR fan. Tim

Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on there investments here lately. After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for around 2 years now for all practical purposes. N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project. I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims that anything else would require a massive ground up development project that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title. Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they could easily do with that in no particular order is: 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing" from the work of the guys at the Pits site. 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2 is not beyond reason. 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here. As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable future. Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity. Borut Srebotnik <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 gamesfrom > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quitehight > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? > > Borut > >

Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games from EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite hight to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? Borut

On Thu, 11 May 2000 19:14:02 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Papyrus are owned by a French company......... ...and every sim they've made with the exception of GPL has been geared toward US based motorsport... CART, SODA, and NASCAR. They are designing sims primarily for the US market. Tim

What about a Nascar4 to TransAm '69? Sudesh Racer88 wrote:

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> > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on there > investments here lately. > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for > around 2 years now for all practical purposes. > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy > mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets > again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for > Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project. > > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims > that anything else would require a massive ground up development project > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title. > > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they > could easily do with that in no particular order is: > > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing" > from the work of the guys at the Pits site. > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2 > is not beyond reason. > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here. > > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy > stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable > future. > > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that > anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity. > > Borut Srebotnik <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games > from > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite > hight > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge > > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? > > > > Borut > > > >

Papyrus are paying around $3million a year for the rights to the tracks they use......everything else costs alot as well.... pez Bill Mette <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8fd6qm$l28$[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote: > >You have to be in the US to understand. > >F1 is really a fringe sport here in the U.S. It's televised, sometimes > >live if the schedule permits, but there is never a big deal made of > >it. > >CART is more popular, with some big US based sponsors, but it's still > >not what it used to be. > >Bigger crowds turn out for National drag events than CART races. > >It's been said hundreds of times, but the CART/IRL split really > >knocked the wind out of CART. IRL races are mostly ghost towns, so > >they didn't accomplish anything, either. > > > >NASCAR is HUGE! > >There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it. > >4 Different channels competing for rights to show it. > >One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another > >channel has rights to the race... You get the idea. > > > >Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and > >Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the > >NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or > >F1 sim. > > There's probably one other thing that comes into play: licensing. I seem > to recall reading somewhere that when you compete in NASCAR at the WC > level (maybe BGN too), NASCAR owns the rights to your name, likeness, > sponsor and car appearance, etc... It's kind of like a model release for > motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about > producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal with > NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the > picture. I think the tracks are the same way too (Daytona and IMS > aside). That HAS to cut down immensely on the legal bills. Of course all > of this is from memory so I could be wrong. Anyway, the cost of licensing > NASCAR is probably next to being free compared to the cost of licensing > F1 from Bernie. > -- > | "Instead of letting the moon be the > Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let > Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our > [email hidden] | history." - Andrew Chaikin

Papyrus are owned by a French company......... pez Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 11 May 2000 03:34:49 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. > > You completely missed my point. Papyrus' prime market is the US. > > If they just wanted to make a sim for whatever sport is biggest, > they'd be making a soccer (football) sim. > > Tim >

On Thu, 11 May 2000 03:34:49 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: >F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. You completely missed my point. Papyrus' prime market is the US. If they just wanted to make a sim for whatever sport is biggest, they'd be making a soccer (football) sim. Tim

Speculation: Papy is so tied to NASCAR that they are virtually incapable (either technically or from a corporate standpoint) of doing anything else at this point. They've lost a lot of the original talent that helped make them great, and now they're simply resting on their laurels. It's that kind of arrogance that leads to a fall. Prediction: IF (and it's a big "if," granted) Papy somehow falters with N4, they will evaporate, vanish, and cease to exist. Yes, GPL was awesome, and N4 should (note that I said SHOULD) be equally awesome, but the marketplace is where the battle is fought, not here at RAS among the diehard sim racers. If they don't strike the right balance, they run the risk of producing a game that's too realistic and difficult, which means the masses may shun (which is what happened with GPL), and if they err in the opposite direction, they run the risk of having the sim racing devotees will turn their backs on them. Even if Papy gets EVERYTHING right with N4, there are a lot of people waiting in the wings to knock them off their precarious throne. The MGI team is made up of former Papy people, and if some of the things in NASCAR Heat turn out to play better in the marketplace than N4, then it could be the end of Papy. If not MGI and Hasbro, then there are plenty of other competitors out there. Even as bad as NASCAR Revolution was, you can BET that it ate into Papy's sales, and that had to hurt. Good thing they were just resting on their laurels and not really doing anything really costly. EA's NASCAR 2000 may not be OUR cup of tea, but there are folks out there who have bought it, and they enjoy it. How many of those folks bought N2K instead of N3? That's also got to hurt Papy's bank account. And sooner or later, EA, Hasbro, or SOMEBODY is going to produce a superior NASCAR product, and then what's Papy going to do? It's inevitable, folks -- in business, it's lead, follow, or get out of the way, and there are a lot of folks nipping at Papy's NASCAR-clad heels. Anybody want to buy another Craftsman Truck add-on . . . along with another copy of N3 and NASCAR Legends, to go with the copies that you already bought, separately? Pathetic marketing ploy, IMO. Now, if Papy would get off their license-sucking @$$&$ and do something innovative AND marketable (more marketable than GPL, anyway), THEN that would be something to make us all take notice, including the competition. As it is, nobody's chasing Papy these days, they're chasing the NASCAR gravy train -- nobody wants to make a better sim than Papy, just a better NASCAR game (or sim . . . whichever makes the most money and unseats Papy from the throne). Now, if Papy was paying attention, Ratbag wouldn't have slipped us that neat little gem called Dirt Track Racing, and they wouldn't be the company bringing us a new Sprint car game, either -- it would be the industry leader, Papy. If Papy was truly king, then MGI wouldn't have brought us that amazing piece of work caled Viper Racing, because Papy would have been sucking the marrow out of THAT license while further proving that THEY were the industry leader. If Papy was really in charge, EA's in-house team wouldn't have pocketed all of Porsche's coinage to bring us that surprising gem that's called NFS:PU, because Papy would have been getting rich off that. Papy didn't do any of these things -- they were resting on their laurels while the competition was getting richer, more savvy, and much, much closer in terms of capabilities. Yes, Papy has been resting on their laurels for far too long, and that's how companies die. Rendition, once one of the industry leaders in 3D graphics, is all but gone now, and 3DFx, once THE undisputed 3D leader, is now playing catch-up with a lot of other companies. The leader only stays on top if they outpace the competition, and Papy may have set the bar, but they're not pushing the envelope at all (if I may mix metaphors there a bit), and there are a LOT of other companies who are getting within reach of that bar. Good for us. Too bad for Papy if they continue to snooze. I don't want to see this company fade away like some pathetic, aging rock star. GPL was/is awesome, but in another year or so, it's going to take a LOT of tweaking to make even that game engine stay abreast of what's on the horizon. Wake up, Papy, before it's too late. -- JB In article <8fco3q$n9o$[email hidden]>, "Lewis" <[email hidden]> wrote: > It is sad that Papy will not do anything but Nascar programs.Don't > get me wrong because I like Nascar but not only Nascar. Papy seems toforget > that it was their Indy programs, years ago, put them in business.Papy is > my favorite producer of race programs because I feel they put out agreat, > well thought out product. But since Nascar 2 and Indycar 2, GPL isthe only > program that they have really shown their talent with. Nascar 3 wasjust a > rehash of Nascar 2 once they dropped the use of GPL physics. Soreally, > Papy, who is considered by many as the best creator of race games,has only > given but one new game in the last few years. Grand Prix Legends. TheNascar > series has not been the major leap as was GPL. Papy could createmany, many > buyable race games if they did just this one thing: > > Create every race game with the absolute best physics modelpossible. > This would satisfy Papy's desire for a great product as well as a fewpeople > who desire the best. Then...either dummy up this physics model forall the > others or maybe even offer two installation products on the same CD.I like > GPL physics the way it is but if it would have had enough dummyphysics > sliders available, everybody would have bought that game. The way ithas > been with Papy AFTER the GPL sales disaster is that they are afraidto use > completely true physics in futer sims when in reality, it does nothave to > be that way. Offer both for everyone to choice from. Over and out. > > > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest returnon > there > > investments here lately. > > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in developmentfor > > around 2 years now for all practical purposes. > > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quickand easy > > mods to an allready established product and get into consumerswallets > > again. This product some would say was actually conceived andtested for > > Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project. > > > > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything butNASCAR sims > > that anything else would require a massive ground up developmentproject > > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THENASCAR SIM > > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time evercompanies out > > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrativetitle. > > > > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about thenext > > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I thinkthey > > could easily do with that in no particular order is: > > > > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again"borrowing" > > from the work of the guys at the Pits site. > > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4to > GPL2 > > is not beyond reason. > > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here. > > > > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks havepublicy > > stated on their message boards that that is no where in theforeseeable > > future. > > > > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have mydoubts > that > > anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until apoint > > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity. > > > > Borut Srebotnik <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... > > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papyin the > > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1or > Cart > > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1games > > from > > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably alot of > time > > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must bequite > > hight > > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not tobe a > huge > > > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP orGP2?

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> > > > > > Borut > > > > > > > > > > > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Does anyone remember when Papy was going to do a flight sim based on the Reno Air Races? "Borut Srebotnik" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 gamesfrom > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quitehight

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> to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? > > Borut > > >

F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. pez Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 10 May 2000 23:16:49 +0200, "Borut Srebotnik" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the > >near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart > >sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 gamesfrom > >EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot oftime > >and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quitehight

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> >to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge > >hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? > > You have to be in the US to understand. > F1 is really a fringe sport here in the U.S. It's televised, sometimes > live if the schedule permits, but there is never a big deal made of > it. > CART is more popular, with some big US based sponsors, but it's still > not what it used to be. > Bigger crowds turn out for National drag events than CART races. > It's been said hundreds of times, but the CART/IRL split really > knocked the wind out of CART. IRL races are mostly ghost towns, so > they didn't accomplish anything, either. > > NASCAR is HUGE! > There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it. > 4 Different channels competing for rights to show it. > One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another > channel has rights to the race... You get the idea. > > Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and > Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the > NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or > F1 sim. > > The US RAS guys like me probably aren't a great representation of the > NASCAR fanaticism in the US. > I love to catch Rallies, Touring Cars, or F1 on TV, the average NASCAR > fan doesn't. > You really need to pay attention to see F1, and it's a miracle to > catch Rally stuff more than a few times a year (I don't have > Speedvision). I'm also a complete motorcycle fanatic, and soak up all > the Supercross and National action I can, and can't wait to get > Speedvision so I can watch the MXGP's. > > I like the NASCAR sims for online racing. The ovals make for fun, > accessible multi-player. I'm really looking forward to both Heat and > N4, even though I'm not a huge NASCAR fan. > > Tim >

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>You have to be in the US to understand. >F1 is really a fringe sport here in the U.S. It's televised, sometimes >live if the schedule permits, but there is never a big deal made of >it. >CART is more popular, with some big US based sponsors, but it's still >not what it used to be. >Bigger crowds turn out for National drag events than CART races. >It's been said hundreds of times, but the CART/IRL split really >knocked the wind out of CART. IRL races are mostly ghost towns, so >they didn't accomplish anything, either. > >NASCAR is HUGE! >There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it. >4 Different channels competing for rights to show it. >One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another >channel has rights to the race... You get the idea. > >Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and >Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the >NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or >F1 sim.

There's probably one other thing that comes into play: licensing. I seem to recall reading somewhere that when you compete in NASCAR at the WC level (maybe BGN too), NASCAR owns the rights to your name, likeness, sponsor and car appearance, etc... It's kind of like a model release for motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal with NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the picture. I think the tracks are the same way too (Daytona and IMS aside). That HAS to cut down immensely on the legal bills. Of course all of this is from memory so I could be wrong. Anyway, the cost of licensing NASCAR is probably next to being free compared to the cost of licensing F1 from Bernie. -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our [email hidden] | history." - Andrew Chaikin

I don't totally disagree........BUT If that were the case then we should get the full boat as far as tracks, drivers, manufacturers, event sponsors, team sponsors etc. etc............All these after market addons that folks make aren't made because just having a NASCAR license gives Papy the full ride to everything in NASCAR apparently. Bill Mette <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8fd6qm$l28$[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote: > >You have to be in the US to understand. > >F1 is really a fringe sport here in the U.S. It's televised, sometimes > >live if the schedule permits, but there is never a big deal made of > >it. > >CART is more popular, with some big US based sponsors, but it's still > >not what it used to be. > >Bigger crowds turn out for National drag events than CART races. > >It's been said hundreds of times, but the CART/IRL split really > >knocked the wind out of CART. IRL races are mostly ghost towns, so > >they didn't accomplish anything, either. > > > >NASCAR is HUGE! > >There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it. > >4 Different channels competing for rights to show it. > >One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another > >channel has rights to the race... You get the idea. > > > >Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and > >Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the > >NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or > >F1 sim. > > There's probably one other thing that comes into play: licensing. I seem > to recall reading somewhere that when you compete in NASCAR at the WC > level (maybe BGN too), NASCAR owns the rights to your name, likeness, > sponsor and car appearance, etc... It's kind of like a model release for > motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about > producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal with > NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the > picture. I think the tracks are the same way too (Daytona and IMS > aside). That HAS to cut down immensely on the legal bills. Of course all > of this is from memory so I could be wrong. Anyway, the cost of licensing > NASCAR is probably next to being free compared to the cost of licensing > F1 from Bernie. > -- > | "Instead of letting the moon be the > Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let > Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our > [email hidden] | history." - Andrew Chaikin

"pez" <[email hidden]> wrote > F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. In real-life of course (and probably a much higher ratio), but we are talking about the PC gaming business here. It's a totally different thing. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

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>I don't totally disagree........BUT >If that were the case then we should get the full boat as far as tracks, >drivers, manufacturers, event sponsors, team sponsors etc. >etc............All these after market addons that folks make aren't made >because just having a NASCAR license gives Papy the full ride to everything >in NASCAR apparently. >> motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about >> producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal

with >> NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the That's right, Racer88: if Papy only needed to negotiate a SINGLE license for everything NASCAR related, we'd be driving Chevy's instead of "Chassis 2's." Gunner

Are you saying that simulations are only sold in U.S. and the rest of the world in nothing? There are lots of computers in Europe, too! I can't see a better moment for releasing a F1 sim. The young star ( Button ) from GB, Germans doing more than well, Brazilian driver in top car, the rumours around JV ( Canada ) goint to McLaren, US Grand Prix back..... So thera are people watching F1, they have computers at home and waiting for the ultimate sim. Well, ok, Sierra must know what they are doing. Surely there are some smart people in their management but i think that focusing on Nascar isn't good for Papy. Sierra will destroy them with their policy and dump them when they are not kings anymore. It's so sad! I just hope that GP3 is really good and a big sales hit. This should open Sierra's eyes. Papy wouldn't have that much trouble producing a sim that's on par or better than an almost one-man-sim from G. Crammond. Borut ymenard wrote in message ...

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>"pez" <[email hidden]> wrote >> F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. > > >In real-life of course (and probably a much higher ratio), but we are >talking about the PC gaming business here. It's a totally different thing. > > > > >-- >-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> >-- May the Downforce be with you... >-- http://www.WeRace.net >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Racer88 wrote in message ...

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>I don't totally disagree........BUT >If that were the case then we should get the full boat as far as tracks, >drivers, manufacturers, event sponsors, team sponsors etc. >etc............All these after market addons that folks make aren't made >because just having a NASCAR license gives Papy the full ride to everything >in NASCAR apparently. > >Bill Mette <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about >> producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal

with >> NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the That's right, Racer88: if Papy only needed to negotiate a SINGLE license for everything NASCAR related, we'd be driving Chevy's instead of "Chassis 2's." Gunner

Tim O. <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws [email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 11 May 2000 03:34:49 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. > > You completely missed my point. Papyrus' prime market is the US. > > If they just wanted to make a sim for whatever sport is biggest, > they'd be making a soccer (football) sim. > > Tim >

If they do let's hope they'll use the GPL engine.

Yeah that'll work too. TransAm Legends would be awesome. amos-opus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> What about a Nascar4 to TransAm '69? > > Sudesh > > Racer88 wrote: > > > > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on

there > > investments here lately. > > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for > > around 2 years now for all practical purposes. > > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick andeasy > > mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets > > again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for > > Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project. > > > > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCARsims > > that anything else would require a massive ground up development project > > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCARSIM > > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companiesout

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> > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title. > > > > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next > > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they > > could easily do with that in no particular order is: > > > > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again

"borrowing" > > from the work of the guys at the Pits site. > > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 toGPL2

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> > is not beyond reason. > > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here. > > > > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy > > stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable > > future. > > > > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts

that > > anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point > > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity. > > > > Borut Srebotnik <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... > > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy inthe > > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 orCart > > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games > > from > > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot oftime > > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite > > hight > > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be ahuge > > > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? > > > > > > Borut > > > > > >

amos-opus wrote: > > What about a Nascar4 to TransAm '69? > > Sudesh > I don't know if I'm supposed to say this...But the folks who gave us the Touring car Patches for N2/N99, the TPTCC from the uspits.com, have come up with some interesting plans for N3/NL. I do believe we will see Mustangs and Camaro's and Javelin's and Cuda's by this summer. dave henrie

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> Racer88 wrote: > > > > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on there > > investments here lately. > > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for > > around 2 years now for all practical purposes. > > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy > > mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets > > again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for > > Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project. > > > > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims > > that anything else would require a massive ground up development project > > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM > > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out > > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title. > > > > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next > > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they > > could easily do with that in no particular order is: > > > > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing" > > from the work of the guys at the Pits site. > > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2 > > is not beyond reason. > > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here. > > > > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy > > stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable > > future. > > > > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that > > anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point > > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity. > > > > Borut Srebotnik <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... > > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the > > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart > > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games > > from > > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time > > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite > > hight > > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge > > > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? > > > > > > Borut > > > > > >

"pez" <[email hidden]> wrote > Papyrus are owned by a French company......... So what's the problem with that? I sense some Xenophobia in you... -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Borut Srebotnik" <[email hidden]> wrote > Are you saying that simulations are only sold in U.S. and the rest of the > world in nothing? No, Im saying that the principal market of games is countries with high-income population (mostly Japan, Australia, North America and Europe). Even if the market is high in Europe, it's still nowhere in sales compared to the US. Just look at the population spread on sites with GPL or Nascar racers. It's an absolute crunch by Americans. It's simply a fact. Of course there is popularity in gamers for Formula 1 simulation, but it's still much smaller than NASCAR for Sierra. Of course I don't agree with that, but the suits at Sierra do not want racing simulations by Papyrus to be focused on smaller markets like we have for flight sims. I mean... Im sorry but the rest of the world don't have much access to PC, and alot less to games. It's sad, but that's how it is. It's where Formula 1 is the most popular (ex: Brazil). Personally I want anything that has the new game engine. Anything! Even School bus Demolition Derbies on 8-shaped tracks :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

????????????? Just stating that Papy money comes and goes from/to france. I hope that the french owner Havas could put some pressure on Papy for an F1 sim. ???????????????xenophobia???????????where did you get that from?????????????? pez?????????? ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lnFS4.39057$[email hidden]...

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> "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Papyrus are owned by a French company......... > > So what's the problem with that? > > I sense some Xenophobia in you... > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

pez wrote: > > F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. > Maybe 100 to 1 but here in the US it isn't going to sell and Papyrus cannot afford to gamble on the investment the F1 licensing would require. Heck, they won't even license the actual car makes and several of the tracks WC runs on. No way are they going to deal with Dictator Bernie and FISA. -- Rich Koehler rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com killerk(at)home(dot)com

Better yet, Can-Am '69. But that brings the lovely world of simulating aerodynamics into the mix. Wouldn't argue much at all with TransAm '69 though. In article <[email hidden]>, amos-opus <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>What about a Nascar4 to TransAm '69? > >Sudesh > >Racer88 wrote: >> >> Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on there >> investments here lately. >> After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for >> around 2 years now for all practical purposes. >> N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy >> mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets >> again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for >> Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project. >> >> I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims >> that anything else would require a massive ground up development project >> that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM >> of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out >> there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title. >> >> Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next >> legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they >> could easily do with that in no particular order is: >> >> 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing" >> from the work of the guys at the Pits site. >> 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2 >> is not beyond reason. >> 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here. >> >> As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy >> stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable >> future. >> >> Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that >> anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point >> that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity. >> >> Borut Srebotnik <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:WhkS4.3155$[email hidden]... >> > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the >> > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart >> > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games >> from >> > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time >> > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite >> hight >> > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge >> > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2? >> > >> > Borut >> > >> >

-- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our [email hidden] | history." - Andrew Chaikin

Ok. I admit that my "ease of licensing" reasoning was bad. However, I'd still contend that US $3 million is probably peanuts compared to licensing Formula 1. In article <8fet4c$oni$[email hidden]>, pez <[email hidden]> wrote: >Papyrus are paying around $3million a year for the rights to the tracks they >use......everything else costs alot as well.... > >pez -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our [email hidden] | history." - Andrew Chaikin

"pez" <[email hidden]> wrot > Just stating that Papy money comes and goes from/to france. And what is the relation between the country of France and Formula 1 racing simulation in today's internationalised business world? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

french prefer f1 to nascar... same with the brits, germans, japanese, malaysians etc Im generalising of course, youll find more fans of f1 in these countries than nascar. Id just love to see a papy f1 sim. pez ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:k37T4.53280$[email hidden]... > "pez" <[email hidden]> wrot > > Just stating that Papy money comes and goes from/to france. > > > And what is the relation between the country of France and Formula 1racing

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> simulation in today's internationalised business world? > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > >

ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RPqS4.37465$[email hidden]... > "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote > > F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1. With respect, the guys considering the moneys are probably looking at the US market as its primary driving force. In which case, yep, you'd be daft to deviate from NASCAR. But look at Germany and Japan and you can sell F1 sims by the bucket load. Mike.

pez wrote:

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> > french prefer f1 to nascar... > same with the brits, germans, japanese, malaysians etc > > Im generalising of course, youll find more fans of f1 in these countries > than nascar. > > Id just love to see a papy f1 sim. > > pez >

While I appreciate Papyrus' abilities...I have to as WHY? The only avenue that would interest me would be more historical sim. 70's and 80's F1. But surely no modern version. There are 5 or 6 current modern F1 sims. Why add to that total..even if you can produce a better product...the market is WAAYY oversaturated. Nascar is starting to reach that same level of more product than market demand but since Papy is opperating as the class market leader...they can continue to reap profits from that form of racing. World Rally is covered Touring Cars are at least partially covered. Sports Cars and LeMans seems to have untouched potiential so far. Motorcycles are fast approaching oversaturation Which of the 6 to 8 American Road Racing series are covered? (with the exception of CART, I can't see any current American series generating enough interest to fund a serious sim) F3k is seen as Jr league and therefore not appropriate for a sim of it's own...Wouldn't gp3 be great if it included a full F3 product as well? Same goes for Indy Lights, Toyota Atlantic, Barber Dodge. SCCA sims have a built in core market but probably wouldn't get enough support from outsiders. The big leagues just can't sustain continued versions of the same product released every buying cycle. The little sims like DTR can succeed here if they find a niche that grabs attention from several different types of fans. So sorry I rambled... I'll sum-up. WHY Another F1 sim? We have tons of them already. Do we have any Cart products at this time? That is one of the few major series that is underexposed. CART with Indy Lights and Toyota Atlantic as part of the same package could be something. Before your career in CART happens you have to produce in the the two minor leagues to grab the attention of the CART owners. Lets make it a Series simulator, not just a driving package.(although that would be NICE too.) dave henrie