Just received this in email
http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
First EA NASCAR SimRacing video and the Papyrus collision code
A new trailer for EA's NASCAR SimRacing drew mixed reactions, with some calling it arcade-like and others defending it. Posters noted that it was built on ISI technology from the EA F1 games and that former Papyrus staff were involved. Jan Verschueren and JP debated why Papyrus's online collision code produced 'rocket launch' crashes, and it was reported that a demo was due the following week.
Automated summary.
Just received this in email
http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
Why do these releases (previews) have to be accompanied by "exciting"
music??!
Far better to simply incorporate the real-life sounds, IMO.
BK
"Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:cs22t4$3tnb$[email hidden]...
> Just received this in email
>
> http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
>
>
>
thats great, you see cars flip over the wall off of turn 4 at Indy all the
time in real life. lol
"Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:cs22t4$3tnb$[email hidden]...
> Just received this in email
>
> http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
>
>
>
yeah :)
"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:IP0Fd.851$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (21 lines)
> Yeah, very closely resembles the Papy online collision code, eh ? <g> > > > "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:zL0Fd.126$[email hidden]... >> thats great, you see cars flip over the wall off of turn 4 at Indy all >> the >> time in real life. lol >> >> "Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:cs22t4$3tnb$[email hidden]... >> > Just received this in email >> > >> > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >yeah :)
Quoted text (15 lines)
> Yeah, very closely resembles the Papy online collision code, eh ? <g> >> thats great, you see cars flip over the wall off of turn 4 at Indy all >> the >> time in real life. lol >> > Just received this in email >> > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp not holding my breath still looks very arcade, can't see it beating NR2003.
"Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:cs22t4$3tnb$[email hidden]...
> Just received this in email
>
> http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
>
>
>
Yeah, very closely resembles the Papy online collision code, eh ? <g>
"Phillip Malphrus, Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:zL0Fd.126$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> thats great, you see cars flip over the wall off of turn 4 at Indy all the > time in real life. lol > > "Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:cs22t4$3tnb$[email hidden]... > > Just received this in email > > > > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp > > > > > > > >
"mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:PO0Fd.431$[email hidden]...
> not holding my breath still looks very arcade, can't see it beatingNR2003.
How *exactly* does it look arcade ? Just curious.
>
the hands on the wheel, look jerky, maybe they were using the keypad or
something.
"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2T0Fd.852$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:PO0Fd.431$[email hidden]... >> not holding my breath still looks very arcade, can't see it beating > NR2003. > > > How *exactly* does it look arcade ? Just curious. > > > >> > >> the hands on the wheel, look jerky, maybe they were using the keypad or
> something.
Hands on the wheel looked fine to me... like someone with a bad setup doing
too much steering. Honestly, other than the 38 car going airborne from what
looked like minimal contact, I didn't see anything indicating it'll be worse
than, the same as, or better than NR2003.
Alan
"Alan Le" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8l1Fd.9649$[email hidden]...
> > the hands on the wheel, look jerky, maybe they were using the keypad or
> > something.
>
> Hands on the wheel looked fine to me... like someone with a bad setupdoing
> too much steering. Honestly, other than the 38 car going airborne fromwhat
> looked like minimal contact, I didn't see anything indicating it'll beworse
> than, the same as, or better than NR2003.
>
> Alan
Exactly.
>
Pretty poor basis for labeling a game arcade, as many things could cause
that. Didn't see that myself anyway.
Btw, the Papy games can be steered via keypad keys too. Must be arcade I
guess <g>
"mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3X0Fd.432$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (20 lines)
> the hands on the wheel, look jerky, maybe they were using the keypad or > something. > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:2T0Fd.852$[email hidden]... > > > > "mjones53" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:PO0Fd.431$[email hidden]... > >> not holding my breath still looks very arcade, can't see it beating > > NR2003. > > > > > > How *exactly* does it look arcade ? Just curious. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >>"Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote
> http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
Looks like they are cloning everything Papyrus has done. Really it's all
there, from the GUI to the replays and all. You know, anybody could do the
same movie with NR2003 and tight editing, bing bang whoosh sounds and rock
music. The way the car goes down the apron is laughable at Bristol. Take
this the guy who was whining about N3's apron. N3 was HALF A DECADE ago.
Btw if you check the static shots, the textures are very low-res. Shame
again.
Oh and that crash in the end... yikes that was ugly.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
Quoted text (8 lines)
>"Alan Le" <[email hidden]> wrote > Hands on the wheel looked fine to me... like someone with a bad setup > doing > too much steering. Honestly, other than the 38 car going airborne from > what > looked like minimal contact, I didn't see anything indicating it'll be > worse > than, the same as, or better than NR2003.Here's a bunch more words;
"Online Play: PS2 (EA SPORTS Nation)"
and
"Online Play: Xbox Live"
--
1904 - Daytona Beach Florida
Glenn H. Curtiss American aviation pioneer, makes first official 60mph
motorcycle run.
Powered by one of the first American made twin cylinder engines.
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:20:13 +1100, Bruce Kennewell wrote:
> Why do these releases (previews) have to be accompanied by "exciting"
> music??!
Have you ever watched a recent NASCAR TV broadcast? They do it, too
(mostly during the race recaps and crashes), so it has to be part of
the sim. I really wonder what audience they're trying to please with
that, but that's a completely different matter ;^)
Cheers uwe
And here's a few more .... '...former Papyrus employees working on the
game....."
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:if2Fd.33129$[email hidden]...
the
<laughter> Yes, and Papy's collision code is soooo well done <sarcasm
mode off>
Wrecks on the EA clip looked just like a typical 03 wreck. O3 cars do
the exact same thing at Bristol's apron too.
p.s. the N3 comment was to show an example, but I guess to a blind fanboy,
the common sense/obvious can be hard to see at times.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >"Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote > > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp > > > > Looks like they are cloning everything Papyrus has done. Really it's all > there, from the GUI to the replays and all. You know, anybody could doQuoted text (15 lines)
> same movie with NR2003 and tight editing, bing bang whoosh sounds and rock > music. The way the car goes down the apron is laughable at Bristol. Take > this the guy who was whining about N3's apron. N3 was HALF A DECADE ago. > > Btw if you check the static shots, the textures are very low-res. Shame > again. > > Oh and that crash in the end... yikes that was ugly. > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... >
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:if2Fd.33129$[email hidden]...
the
Btw, the entire point here is simple; NSR may well be a pos. Or it may
not. But the fact is, if it is lousy, it *won't be just because it's
different than a Papy game*. It'll be because of obvious flaws. There's
plenty of real-life items that Papy has never got right, (or took multiple
versions before they did get it right) and 03 included. What's funny, is
that if someone comes along with the correct way something should be done,
the cries of, "Hey, that's wrong ! Why ? Um, because that's not how it was
in the Papy games !" Instead of, um, because that's not how it is in real
life.
And that's the mindset you seem to have; if it's different than Papy, it's
bad/wrong, period.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >"Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote > > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp > > > > Looks like they are cloning everything Papyrus has done. Really it's all > there, from the GUI to the replays and all. You know, anybody could doQuoted text (8 lines)
> same movie with NR2003 and tight editing, bing bang whoosh sounds and rock > music. The way the car goes down the apron is laughable at Bristol. Take > this the guy who was whining about N3's apron. N3 was HALF A DECADE ago. > > Btw if you check the static shots, the textures are very low-res. Shame > again. > > Oh and that crash in the end... yikes that was ugly.
The video looks pretty good to me....Sadler's airborne looked a little
cheesy. I once had my car get stuck up in the fence and stay there in
a pre-race practice session in N2003. N2003 is and will be a great sim
but I for one am hoping EA does a good job with this game. I am ready
to try something new. Steve P
There is a movie on OLR, where Joe L, interviewed James Hawkins
(producer)...
Anywho in the interview JH stated that a major chunk of this sim's
(whatever) is based in the F1 tittled games...
SO me never having even tried the F1 stuff from EA, I want to know, is that
bad, or good?
Braddo enlightened us with:
> Just received this in email
>
> http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
"Plowboy2" wrote...
It's good and bad.
If the racing series in question is well implemented, the ISI physics engine
or development thereof will yield a richer and "more natural" driving
experience than anything Papyrus have ever done.
However, unless they have really fixed some issues this time around (and,
seeing as a lot of annoying stuff that was in F1 2k1 is still in GTR and
rFactor, I'm not holding my breath), a lot of users will have some degree of
difficulty and will possibly need to manually edit files to get their
controller setup "just so" as to be able to fully enjoy the greater detail
offered by the engine.
And, again: unless spectacular advancements have been made, the multi will
be:
- not as robust and straightforward as with Papyrus titles.
- require a lot of bandwidth on the part of the host and a
stable, low ping connection on the part of the player.
- still not look quite right, even under ideal conditions(*).
I don't want to sound as if I'm dismissing it outright, because I'm not. I
truly honestly want the simracing genre to advance and be successfull and I
will give the demo a fair shot at convincing me EA NASCAR Simracing is the
next step forward. However, to do that certain things will have to be fixed
with regard to preceding titles, otherwise there will be fairly little point
in owning the latest version.
Jan.
=---
(*)Rem.: ok, this is highly subjective and if everthing else worked I could
live with it, but I have this problem with F1 2k2/F1C/GTR/rFactor
multiplayer where it appears to me as if the other cars in my field of view
are objects being moved along a similar trajectory to mine, rather than cars
being driven by the other players. Even when conditions are perfect, i.e. a
monster machine/connect as a host and all players geographically close to it
with less than 30ms pings.
On the other hand, when in GPL/NR2003 cars jitter or warp a little (it's
very rare to see a truly terrible connect nowadays), I don't get this same
level of estrangement than in the ISI sims.
Quoted text (8 lines)
> There is a movie on OLR, where Joe L, interviewed James Hawkins > (producer)... > > Anywho in the interview JH stated that a major chunk of this > sim's (whatever) is based in the F1 tittled games... > > SO me never having even tried the F1 stuff from EA, I want to > know, is that bad, or good?"Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote...
> yeah :)
Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for and
works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN multiplayer).
Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only slightly
improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you turn on more cars
in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player calculate collisions
locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, as the time needed to
exchance info between the players leads to ever more erroneous values being
put into the simulation. This creates the infamous and always unexpected
online "explosion", even though a contact may, at first, appear minor.
Jan.
=---
Wow, your so dang eloquent... so I couldnt say it better, so Rfactor and
GTR & this EA version of nascar, are same dang things? Wow. GTR demo I
have tried was OK, I liked the Rfactor better, I think, but is not a fair
test ya know.
cant be all bad then, unless EA does to LSI? what Sierra and corp did to
papy Id guess...
Jan Verschueren enlightened us with:
Quoted text (51 lines)
> "Plowboy2" wrote... >> There is a movie on OLR, where Joe L, interviewed James Hawkins >> (producer)... >> >> Anywho in the interview JH stated that a major chunk of this >> sim's (whatever) is based in the F1 tittled games... >> >> SO me never having even tried the F1 stuff from EA, I want to >> know, is that bad, or good? > > It's good and bad. > > If the racing series in question is well implemented, the ISI physics > engine or development thereof will yield a richer and "more natural" > driving experience than anything Papyrus have ever done. > > However, unless they have really fixed some issues this time around > (and, seeing as a lot of annoying stuff that was in F1 2k1 is still > in GTR and rFactor, I'm not holding my breath), a lot of users will > have some degree of difficulty and will possibly need to manually > edit files to get their controller setup "just so" as to be able to > fully enjoy the greater detail offered by the engine. > > And, again: unless spectacular advancements have been made, the multi > will be: > > - not as robust and straightforward as with Papyrus titles. > - require a lot of bandwidth on the part of the host and a > stable, low ping connection on the part of the player. > - still not look quite right, even under ideal conditions(*). > > I don't want to sound as if I'm dismissing it outright, because I'm > not. I truly honestly want the simracing genre to advance and be > successfull and I will give the demo a fair shot at convincing me EA > NASCAR Simracing is the next step forward. However, to do that > certain things will have to be fixed with regard to preceding titles, > otherwise there will be fairly little point in owning the latest > version. > Jan. > =--- > (*)Rem.: ok, this is highly subjective and if everthing else worked I > could live with it, but I have this problem with F1 > 2k2/F1C/GTR/rFactor multiplayer where it appears to me as if the > other cars in my field of view are objects being moved along a > similar trajectory to mine, rather than cars being driven by the > other players. Even when conditions are perfect, i.e. a monster > machine/connect as a host and all players geographically close to it > with less than 30ms pings. On the other hand, when in GPL/NR2003 cars > jitter or warp a little > (it's very rare to see a truly terrible connect nowadays), I don't > get this same level of estrangement than in the ISI sims.Bruce Kennewell wrote:
> Why do these releases (previews) have to be accompanied by "exciting"
> music??!
> Far better to simply incorporate the real-life sounds, IMO.
I totally agree. But they will sell more units to asswipes if the
include shit musik
--
"For instance I can't think of the last time I actually paid for a copy
of Windows." -- James Calivar
"Plowboy2" wrote...
> Wow, your so dang eloquent... so I couldnt say it better,
I'm just trying to give the "you're a Papy fanboy"-crowd as little
ammunition as possible.
> so Rfactor and GTR & this EA version of nascar, are same dang
> things? Wow.
They are 3 different implementations based on the same simulation
technology, yes.
> GTR demo I have tried was OK, I liked the Rfactor better,
> I think, but is not a fair test ya know.
>
> cant be all bad then,
No, like I said, if you manage to get it configured correctly for your rig,
the actual driving part (and off-line racing) should be very good indeed.
> unless EA does to LSI? what Sierra and corp did to papy Id guess...
No chance of that, EA and ISI have already parted company. All EA can do
(and has done) is hire someone else to advance the code. Let's hope they
haven't "fixed" what didn't need fixing, but improved upon the existing
weaker areas instead.
Jan.
=---
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:hteFd.28928$g%[email hidden]...
cars
> in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player calculate collisions
> locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, as the time needed to
> exchance info between the players leads to ever more erroneous valuesbeing
> put into the simulation. This creates the infamous and always unexpected
> online "explosion", even though a contact may, at first, appear minor.
>
> Jan.
> =---
Blaming it on ping is incorrect. I've seen it exist in any net numbers
you can think of, high or low. As I've asked before; how come Heat's code
didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ?
Quoted text (8 lines)
> "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote... > > yeah :) > > Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for and > works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN multiplayer). > > Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only slightly > improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you turn on more
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MceFd.28907$[email hidden]...
engine
> or development thereof will yield a richer and "more natural" driving
> experience than anything Papyrus have ever done.
>
> However, unless they have really fixed some issues this time around (and,
> seeing as a lot of annoying stuff that was in F1 2k1 is still in GTR and
> rFactor, I'm not holding my breath), a lot of users will have some degreeof
I
> will give the demo a fair shot at convincing me EA NASCAR Simracing is the
> next step forward. However, to do that certain things will have to befixed
> with regard to preceding titles, otherwise there will be fairly littlepoint
> in owning the latest version.
>
> Jan.
> =---
> (*)Rem.: ok, this is highly subjective and if everthing else worked Icould
> live with it, but I have this problem with F1 2k2/F1C/GTR/rFactor
> multiplayer where it appears to me as if the other cars in my field ofview
> are objects being moved along a similar trajectory to mine, rather thancars
> being driven by the other players. Even when conditions are perfect, i.e.a
> monster machine/connect as a host and all players geographically close toit
> with less than 30ms pings.
> On the other hand, when in GPL/NR2003 cars jitter or warp a little (it's
> very rare to see a truly terrible connect nowadays), I don't get this same
> level of estrangement than in the ISI sims.
Excellent points.
Quoted text (13 lines)
> "Plowboy2" wrote... > > There is a movie on OLR, where Joe L, interviewed James Hawkins > > (producer)... > > > > Anywho in the interview JH stated that a major chunk of this > > sim's (whatever) is based in the F1 tittled games... > > > > SO me never having even tried the F1 stuff from EA, I want to > > know, is that bad, or good? > > It's good and bad. > > If the racing series in question is well implemented, the ISI physicsQuoted text (14 lines)
> difficulty and will possibly need to manually edit files to get their > controller setup "just so" as to be able to fully enjoy the greater detail > offered by the engine. > > And, again: unless spectacular advancements have been made, the multi will > be: > > - not as robust and straightforward as with Papyrus titles. > - require a lot of bandwidth on the part of the host and a > stable, low ping connection on the part of the player. > - still not look quite right, even under ideal conditions(*). > > I don't want to sound as if I'm dismissing it outright, because I'm not. I > truly honestly want the simracing genre to advance and be successfull and
"Plowboy2" <stingre.removethis_@yahoo!.removeit> wrote in message
news:oEeFd.21441$Wo.3306@lakeread08...
> Wow, your so dang eloquent... so I couldnt say it better, so Rfactor and
> GTR & this EA version of nascar, are same dang things? Wow. GTR demo I
> have tried was OK, I liked the Rfactor better, I think, but is not a fair
> test ya know.
rFactor uses ISI's latest game engine (gMotor2). GTR uses the previous game
engine. The rFactor demo does not actually contain the final physics and
graphics either, but is for testing the multiplayer component. If you like
the demo now, it only will be better when the full version is released.
--
David G Fisher
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MceFd.28907$[email hidden]...
> =---
> (*)Rem.: ok, this is highly subjective and if everthing else worked Icould
> live with it, but I have this problem with F1 2k2/F1C/GTR/rFactor
> multiplayer where it appears to me as if the other cars in my field ofview
> are objects being moved along a similar trajectory to mine, rather thancars
> being driven by the other players. Even when conditions are perfect, i.e.a
> monster machine/connect as a host and all players geographically close toit
> with less than 30ms pings.
> On the other hand, when in GPL/NR2003 cars jitter or warp a little (it's
> very rare to see a truly terrible connect nowadays), I don't get this same
> level of estrangement than in the ISI sims.
I understand you have two different experiences with the two sims, but it
could it be due to your internet connection? You consistently have a rough
connection to our RASCAR server (blinking in and out). If it's just our
server you have trouble with when racing online, then I have no idea why you
see what you do with the ISI games.
--
David G Fisher
"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yOgFd.875$[email hidden]...
and
> > works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN multiplayer).
> >
> > Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, onlyslightly
Heat definitely did do it at times; I raced Heat a lot back in the day and
seeing cars somersaulting through the air from warp-driven collisions was
far from unheard of. That said, when you had a good connections you could
lean on each other and rub doors till your mirrors fell off. Great fun
emulating the BTCC door bashers with the DTM mod. One thing Heat did (and
so does rFactor) is turn off collisions when latency passes a certain
point - Heat evened turned them into ghost cars. I've gone right through
guys in rFactor who had lousy connections without ever leaving a mark. Papy
apparently didn't like the idea of heavy prediction code so much and
preferred to stick closer to the raw data they were getting, resulting in
the infamous jittering opponents. You don't want to get anywhere near them
for fear of The Bomb... ;-)
But all this speculation about the new EA product is pretty pointless.
Doesn't look so hot from that video, but no matter; we'll all know if it
sucks or not in a week or so.
SB
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hteFd.28928$g%[email hidden]... > > "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote... > > > yeah :) > > > > Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed forQuoted text (17 lines)
> > improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you turn on more > cars > > in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player calculate collisions > > locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, as the time needed to > > exchance info between the players leads to ever more erroneous values > being > > put into the simulation. This creates the infamous and always unexpected > > online "explosion", even though a contact may, at first, appear minor. > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > > > Blaming it on ping is incorrect. I've seen it exist in any net numbers > you can think of, high or low. As I've asked before; how come Heat's code > didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ?"JP" wrote...
> <snip>
> Blaming it on ping is incorrect.
Ping is not directly the cause, no, the trouble is the way GPL/NR200x
servers compensate for it, but not for the position errors this system
causes when collisions are calculated.
> I've seen it exist in any net numbers you can think
> of, high or low.
It works pretty well if the combined ping of the players is under 40ms. E.g.
back in the days when I was one of the first group of people on broadband
where I live and my ping to Norway was 23ms, I could race my buddy Asgeir on
the server at the university (his ping < 10ms) without taking online issues
into account. Once we went one and a half laps around Monaco side by side,
banging wheels Villeneuve vs Arnoux style (and those sissies had a lot of
run off ;-)) as we went along without GPL getting really out of shape.
Anything much higher (say 70ms and above) and things deteriorate rapidly.
Also, in NR200x you are able to turn on more cars to view than the bandwidth
between you and the server allows. In GPL terms, NR200x bandwidth allows you
to view 6 cars and, while stationary, you will only see this amount. Once
you start moving and prediction kicks in you can see up to 42 cars if your
config allows, but this has to be at the cost of update rate. Which is to
say, position info on any opponent car will arrive only once every 3
communications with the server (for 18 opponents in view) and, even if your
combined ping is very low for internet standards nowadays, say 60ms, the
effective update rate between two players may be as bad as 6 times that, or
360ms.
> As I've asked before; how come Heat's code
> didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ?
It's because of the way GPL/NR200x compensates for latency and then
calculates collisions client side, for both clients.
A GPL/NR200x server collects data about the player's position and compares
the amount of time which has passed in the client's race with the amount of
time it knows the race has been underway. It uses this data to sent out info
to the clients on their opponents in such a way that the information will be
current when it arrives at the client PC, assuming latency is the same both
ways AND constant. Because all data has to pass sequentially from the
server, this means that, relative to the server and eachother all players
are at a different point in the timeline with regard to the start of the
race, i.e. each player's game reality is slightly different to all the
others.
Say a collisions starts at one players end... his game calculates his car's
reaction to the collision and send it to the server. This info is then
passed on to the other game where either seperate collision is in progress
or an accident hasn't occured yet. It sends back the local cars reaction to
this time delayed, coming from another version of reality information and
the whole mess keeps feeding back and forth until it spirals out of control
because the two games were too far out of sync due to their relative
latencies (compounded by the update rate in NR200x games) when the accident
started. It's similar to the ball bearing bouncing on the marble plate in
the explanation why the simulation update frequency plays such a big part in
how accurate its results are.
Anyhow, ISI and the people behind LFS use a different system (as yet
unexplained to me), so nudges between cars remain just that, nudges. It's
pretty obvious the trade off is more data being passed between the
participants, but otherwise I'm not aware of the merits/flaws/workings of
this system.
Jan.
=---
"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
more
> > cars
> > > in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player calculate collisions
> > > locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, as the time needed to
> > > exchance info between the players leads to ever more erroneous values
> > being
> > > put into the simulation. This creates the infamous and alwaysunexpected
numbers
> > you can think of, high or low. As I've asked before; how come Heat'scode
Papy
> apparently didn't like the idea of heavy prediction code so much and
> preferred to stick closer to the raw data they were getting, resulting in
> the infamous jittering opponents. You don't want to get anywhere nearthem
<shrug> I raced Heat online like crazy too. Never once saw a Papy-like
rocket launch, fwiw.
Quoted text (15 lines)
> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:yOgFd.875$[email hidden]... > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hteFd.28928$g%[email hidden]... > > > "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote... > > > > yeah :) > > > > > > Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for > and > > > works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN multiplayer). > > > > > > Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only > slightly > > > improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you turn onQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > online "explosion", even though a contact may, at first, appear minor. > > > > > > Jan. > > > =--- > > > > > > > > Blaming it on ping is incorrect. I've seen it exist in any netQuoted text (10 lines)
> > didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ? > > Heat definitely did do it at times; I raced Heat a lot back in the day and > seeing cars somersaulting through the air from warp-driven collisions was > far from unheard of. That said, when you had a good connections you could > lean on each other and rub doors till your mirrors fell off. Great fun > emulating the BTCC door bashers with the DTM mod. One thing Heat did (and > so does rFactor) is turn off collisions when latency passes a certain > point - Heat evened turned them into ghost cars. I've gone right through > guys in rFactor who had lousy connections without ever leaving a mark.Quoted text (7 lines)
> for fear of The Bomb... ;-) > > But all this speculation about the new EA product is pretty pointless. > Doesn't look so hot from that video, but no matter; we'll all know if it > sucks or not in a week or so. > > SBYou would think Ryan Newman would be leading the pack in this picture, since
he is racing a Cup car against Craftsman Trucks...
http://img47.exs.cx/img47/9886/image21at.jpg
"Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:cs22t4$3tnb$[email hidden]...
> Just received this in email
>
> http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
>
>
>
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:muiFd.29215$[email hidden]...
E.g.
> back in the days when I was one of the first group of people on broadband
> where I live and my ping to Norway was 23ms, I could race my buddy Asgeiron
> the server at the university (his ping < 10ms) without taking onlineissues
bandwidth
> between you and the server allows. In GPL terms, NR200x bandwidth allowsyou
> to view 6 cars and, while stationary, you will only see this amount. Once
> you start moving and prediction kicks in you can see up to 42 cars if your
> config allows, but this has to be at the cost of update rate. Which is to
> say, position info on any opponent car will arrive only once every 3
> communications with the server (for 18 opponents in view) and, even ifyour
> combined ping is very low for internet standards nowadays, say 60ms, the
> effective update rate between two players may be as bad as 6 times that,or
of
> time it knows the race has been underway. It uses this data to sent outinfo
> to the clients on their opponents in such a way that the information willbe
> current when it arrives at the client PC, assuming latency is the sameboth
car's
> reaction to the collision and send it to the server. This info is then
> passed on to the other game where either seperate collision is in progress
> or an accident hasn't occured yet. It sends back the local cars reactionto
> this time delayed, coming from another version of reality information and
> the whole mess keeps feeding back and forth until it spirals out ofcontrol
> because the two games were too far out of sync due to their relative
> latencies (compounded by the update rate in NR200x games) when theaccident
> started. It's similar to the ball bearing bouncing on the marble plate in
> the explanation why the simulation update frequency plays such a big partin
Exactly. Anyway, my point is that folks have a tendency to blame it on
everything but what it is, which is Papy's code.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> "JP" wrote... > > <snip> > > Blaming it on ping is incorrect. > > Ping is not directly the cause, no, the trouble is the way GPL/NR200x > servers compensate for it, but not for the position errors this system > causes when collisions are calculated. > > > I've seen it exist in any net numbers you can think > > of, high or low. > > It works pretty well if the combined ping of the players is under 40ms.Quoted text (7 lines)
> into account. Once we went one and a half laps around Monaco side by side, > banging wheels Villeneuve vs Arnoux style (and those sissies had a lot of > run off ;-)) as we went along without GPL getting really out of shape. > > Anything much higher (say 70ms and above) and things deteriorate rapidly. > > Also, in NR200x you are able to turn on more cars to view than theQuoted text (10 lines)
> 360ms. > > > As I've asked before; how come Heat's code > > didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ? > > It's because of the way GPL/NR200x compensates for latency and then > calculates collisions client side, for both clients. > > A GPL/NR200x server collects data about the player's position and compares > the amount of time which has passed in the client's race with the amountQuoted text (7 lines)
> ways AND constant. Because all data has to pass sequentially from the > server, this means that, relative to the server and eachother all players > are at a different point in the timeline with regard to the start of the > race, i.e. each player's game reality is slightly different to all the > others. > > Say a collisions starts at one players end... his game calculates hisQuoted text (10 lines)
> how accurate its results are. > > Anyhow, ISI and the people behind LFS use a different system (as yet > unexplained to me), so nudges between cars remain just that, nudges. It's > pretty obvious the trade off is more data being passed between the > participants, but otherwise I'm not aware of the merits/flaws/workings of > this system. > > Jan. > =---"David G Fisher" wrote...
Well, the RASCAR problems are a 3-way thing... Saturday night seems to be an
extra-ordinarily busy time at my providers, so my connect is worse then than
at other times. Secondly the route to the RASCAR server is particularly bad
compared to other servers in the US I have used (Blademan, Eldred's, etc...)
and, thirdly, for some reason this server seems to react particularly poorly
to my connection problems. Sometimes, it will start adjusting the wrong way
for my connection difficulties and, when that starts to happen, it never
recovers and I have to disconnect to avoid taking the field with me. It's
one thing to have latency spikes in upload (thus dissappearing for the other
players from time to time) but being able to keep tabs on the other guys
(thanks to one of the improvements in NR200x multiplayer over GPL, i.e. the
server keeps sending you data even though there's a momentary interuption in
the data flow from your end) and re-appearing more or less where they expect
you to be. It's another for the server to force my game to slow down or
accellerate because it doesn't believe I'm where my game says I am and then
immediatly correcting the other players' positions once it realises it's
been forcing me to adjust the wrong way. That is extremely difficult to
adjust to as a player and extremely dangerous in an online scenario as it
make me appear unpredictable to the other players.
Now, I know you can't do anything about that and this is just the way things
are with me running NR2003 on the RASCAR server. If we were using an ISI
derived game for our races on this server, online play would be impossible
for me even on the best of nights.
However, things are quite different on a Sunday morning at 9am and a server
that's only 3.5km away from me. There's absolutely no online issues then.
Actually, the guy who runs that says that I'm imagining things as well. Even
after I pointed it out to him standing behind him as he played. He says:
"yeah, it does that sometimes, but it's rare and it doesn't bother me."
I say: "it does that on every corner and every bit in between of every lap
and it really bothers me".
Like I said, it's highly subjective.
Jan.
=---
Quoted text (7 lines)
>> <snip> > I understand you have two different experiences with the > two sims, but could it be due to your internet connection? > You consistently have a rough connection to our RASCAR > server (blinking in and out). If it's just our server you > have trouble with when racing online, then I have no idea > why you see what you do with the ISI games. Seeing as it's a pace lap, kind of hard to lead if you're not on the pole
<g> Funny pic though.
"Buck411" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:eajFd.232289$[email hidden]...
> You would think Ryan Newman would be leading the pack in this picture,since
Quoted text (16 lines)
> he is racing a Cup car against Craftsman Trucks... > > http://img47.exs.cx/img47/9886/image21at.jpg > > > > "Braddo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:cs22t4$3tnb$[email hidden]... > > Just received this in email > > > > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp > > > > > > > >"JP" wrote...
>> <snip>
> Exactly. Anyway, my point is that folks have a tendency
> to blame it on everything but what it is, which is Papy's
> code.
Sure, but it's also unfair to blame it on code not originally intended to
operate in the environment it was transferred into.
Also, I think the Papy system has a lot of merit to it, in a community
sense.
Do you want online racing to be limited to those who can (collectively) pay
for a powerfull server with a guaranteed 10Mbit throughput and top of the
range private broadband connections to it or do you want everyone who owns a
PC and an analog modem to, through getting an account from some free
provider and carefully managing their connection settings, be able to race
on a P3 455Mhz with 128Mb RAM a bunch of enthousiasts threw together out of
spare computer parts and which is connected to someone's 512kb/512kb ADSL
connection at work to use at night while the bosses don't care 'cuz it's
payed for anyway?
The trade off is drivers have to watch their step in close quarter combat,
but that's a small price to pay for the independance and accessibility this
model provides, IMO.
Jan.
=---
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ZmjFd.29242$r%[email hidden]...
Updated rFactor demo is out now. Maybe things will improve for you.
http://www.hcd.com.au/hg/rfactormppatch.rar
--
David G Fisher
Quoted text (10 lines)
> "David G Fisher" wrote... > >> <snip> > > I understand you have two different experiences with the > > two sims, but could it be due to your internet connection? > > You consistently have a rough connection to our RASCAR > > server (blinking in and out). If it's just our server you > > have trouble with when racing online, then I have no idea > > why you see what you do with the ISI games. > > Well, the RASCAR problems are a 3-way thing...
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TSjFd.29250$[email hidden]...
pay
> for a powerfull server with a guaranteed 10Mbit throughput and top of the
> range private broadband connections to it or do you want everyone who ownsa
> PC and an analog modem to, through getting an account from some free
> provider and carefully managing their connection settings, be able to race
> on a P3 455Mhz with 128Mb RAM a bunch of enthousiasts threw together outof
> spare computer parts and which is connected to someone's 512kb/512kb ADSL
> connection at work to use at night while the bosses don't care 'cuz it's
> payed for anyway?
>
> The trade off is drivers have to watch their step in close quarter combat,
> but that's a small price to pay for the independance and accessibilitythis
> model provides, IMO.
>
> Jan.
> =---
That's a fair point, and no doubt about it, *up to this point* (fingers
crossed), EA's code is a resource hog, in all their different games.
Quoted text (14 lines)
> "JP" wrote... > >> <snip> > > Exactly. Anyway, my point is that folks have a tendency > > to blame it on everything but what it is, which is Papy's > > code. > > > Sure, but it's also unfair to blame it on code not originally intended to > operate in the environment it was transferred into. > > Also, I think the Papy system has a lot of merit to it, in a community > sense. > > Do you want online racing to be limited to those who can (collectively)Jan Verschueren wrote:
The online collision code was one of my main gripes - it especially got
worse after the new physics model was implemented, and deteriorated from
that point on. There was one fella, the guru of this, can't remember his
name off hand - once he left, it went downhill.
--
Don Burnette
"When you decide something is impossible to do, try to stay out of the
way of the man that's doing it."
Quoted text (16 lines)
> "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote... >> yeah :) > > Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for > and works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN > multiplayer). > Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only > slightly improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you > turn on more cars in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player > calculate collisions locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, > as the time needed to exchance info between the players leads to ever > more erroneous values being put into the simulation. This creates the > infamous and always unexpected online "explosion", even though a > contact may, at first, appear minor. > Jan. > =---Steve Blankenship wrote:
Will be interesting to see - I'll wait to see what you guys are saying about
it. Right now, it would take a lot to get me back into a Nascar sim.
--
Don Burnette
"When you decide something is impossible to do, try to stay out of the
way of the man that's doing it."
Quoted text (49 lines)
> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:yOgFd.875$[email hidden]... >> >> "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:hteFd.28928$g%[email hidden]... >>> "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote... >>>> yeah :) >>> >>> Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed >>> for and works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN >>> multiplayer). >>> >>> Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only >>> slightly improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you >>> turn on more cars in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player >>> calculate collisions locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, >>> as the time needed to exchance info between the players leads to >>> ever more erroneous values being put into the simulation. This >>> creates the infamous and always unexpected online "explosion", even >>> though a contact may, at first, appear minor. >>> >>> Jan. >>> =--- >> >> >> >> Blaming it on ping is incorrect. I've seen it exist in any net >> numbers you can think of, high or low. As I've asked before; how >> come Heat's code didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ? > > Heat definitely did do it at times; I raced Heat a lot back in the > day and seeing cars somersaulting through the air from warp-driven > collisions was far from unheard of. That said, when you had a good > connections you could lean on each other and rub doors till your > mirrors fell off. Great fun emulating the BTCC door bashers with the > DTM mod. One thing Heat did (and so does rFactor) is turn off > collisions when latency passes a certain > point - Heat evened turned them into ghost cars. I've gone right > through guys in rFactor who had lousy connections without ever > leaving a mark. Papy apparently didn't like the idea of heavy > prediction code so much and preferred to stick closer to the raw data > they were getting, resulting in the infamous jittering opponents. > You don't want to get anywhere near them for fear of The Bomb... ;-) > > But all this speculation about the new EA product is pretty pointless. > Doesn't look so hot from that video, but no matter; we'll all know if > it sucks or not in a week or so. > > SB> Just received this in email
>
> http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp
Looks like we'll get to try it out pretty soon. From BHM:
"They will be releasing a demo of the game during the week of the 17th. The
cars in the demo will represent the 2004 Season artwork, but when the game
releases, we will have a download available in the install that will update
with all of the 2005 car art. Game modes will be restricted to Testing and
Race Now. Other modes will be displayed on the MAIN MENU but selecting them
will induce a popup as below.
VEHICLE
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #97 - K.Busch - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #48 - J. Johnson - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #24 - J. Gordon - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #6 - M. Martin - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #8 - D. Earnhardt Jr. - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #20 - T. Stewart - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #12 - R. Newman - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #17 - M. Kenseth - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #38 - E. Sadler - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #19 - J. Mayfield - Primary
Kurt Busch to be selected as the default driver.
TRACKS:
- Indianapolis
- Phoenix"
Alan
"Alan Le" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:PfoFd.10012$[email hidden]...
The
> cars in the demo will represent the 2004 Season artwork, but when the game
> releases, we will have a download available in the install that willupdate
> with all of the 2005 car art. Game modes will be restricted to Testing and
> Race Now. Other modes will be displayed on the MAIN MENU but selectingthem
First thing to change, is the default driver <g>
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Just received this in email > > > > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp > > Looks like we'll get to try it out pretty soon. From BHM: > > "They will be releasing a demo of the game during the week of the 17th.Quoted text (23 lines)
> will induce a popup as below. > > VEHICLE > > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #97 - K.Busch - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #48 - J. Johnson - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #24 - J. Gordon - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #6 - M. Martin - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #8 - D. Earnhardt Jr. - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #20 - T. Stewart - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #12 - R. Newman - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #17 - M. Kenseth - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #38 - E. Sadler - Primary > - NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #19 - J. Mayfield - Primary > > Kurt Busch to be selected as the default driver. > > TRACKS: > > - Indianapolis > - Phoenix" > > AlanCharlie Heath
"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (33 lines)
> Jan Verschueren wrote: >> "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote... >>> yeah :) >> >> Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for >> and works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN >> multiplayer). >> Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only >> slightly improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you >> turn on more cars in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player >> calculate collisions locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, >> as the time needed to exchance info between the players leads to ever >> more erroneous values being put into the simulation. This creates the >> infamous and always unexpected online "explosion", even though a >> contact may, at first, appear minor. >> Jan. >> =--- > > > The online collision code was one of my main gripes - it especially got > worse after the new physics model was implemented, and deteriorated from > that point on. There was one fella, the guru of this, can't remember his > name off hand - once he left, it went downhill. > > > > -- > Don Burnette > > "When you decide something is impossible to do, try to stay out of the > way of the man that's doing it." > >"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> And here's a few more .... '...former Papyrus employees working on the
> game....."
>
>
Ummm... could those be the employees that (I'll try not to say his name ala
Beetlejuice) TP refers too in the "Blast From The Past" thread from several
years ago?
quote:
"****all three of these individuals were mysteriously no longer working at
Papyrus!***"
he he, set the way-back machine Sherman!
