Re: FSAA = Disappointment

Pretty much, I thought FSAA would be the Holy Grail, especially for the converted ICR2 tracks. I really bought into all the FSAA hype and thought the screenshots looked fabulous. "Tim Yuhasz" <[email hidden]> wrote > Kinda hard to be disappointed running gpl at 1600x1200 > at full frame rates. What did you think the V5 was, > the Second coming.

I made it all up, I thought it would be fun to just pretend I had the card. WTF? Egghead said they screwed up, and shipped sooner than they should have. I'm confused also because now they claim there is no recall: Dear Tracey Miller, Here is an update to your customer service request: "Dear Valued Customer, Thank you for your order of the 3dfx Voodoo5. This E-mail is being sent to provide you a status update and to correct some misinformation that was communicated to you in our earlier E-mail message. 3dfx did not conduct a worldwide recall of the Voodoo5 product. They discovered a potential problem that may exist in a very small number of boards and only in a particular configuration. 3dfx made the decision to delay the release of the product before it reached consumers so that they could conduct additional testing to see if a problem actually does exist. Due to an error by a third-party organization, some orders for Egghead.com Customers were inadvertently shipped prematurely. If you have not received your order, or if you have refused delivery, your order will be filled when the product is released to the public in the next ten days. If you have already received your product, you may install and use your new Voodoo5. It is highly unlikely that any problem exists with your product. You are covered by the Lifetime warranty that 3dfx offers on all of their products. You may call 3dfx's toll-free technical support line at 800-234-4334 if you have any questions or concerns about the use of your Voodoo5. Thank you - Egghead" To respond to this message or update your request, go to: https://www.egghead.com/custserv/csr_lu.htm Sincerely, Superstore Coordinator Customer Service Representative "Eric Cote" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tracey, can you explain me something ?? > > I'm in the pre-order program, the card was due May 25th, which istoday, but > 3DFX delayed the sell due to small technical problem, and tehydelayed the sell > 2 days ago... how did you got a card yesterday when it's was due forthose who

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> pre-ordered today, but unfortunatly delayed ??? > > > I'm just curious... > > > Eric > > http://www.simracingmag.com > > > Tracey Miller wrote: > > > After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got

my board > > yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > > > > While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you aredriving it is > > more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, andViper > > Racing, and this is what I saw: > > > > In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edgeAA in Glide > > mode on my V3 3000. > > > > In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAAin racing > > sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a goodthing. What > > you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past,the shape of > > bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them. > > > > I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more > > distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also whereI > > discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locksup > > completely, at random but frequent intervals. > > > > In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildingsand trees > > are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame,because the > > lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > > > > Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would havesent it back > > anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probablyset too > > high. > > > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawnto the > > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in thedistance, but > > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAAseems to be > > more of a problem than a solution. >

It's really weird whatever it is, in Viper Racing it's pretty clear that the shapes are changing, buildings seem to expand and implode as you drive by. In N3 you don't really notice anything, it just looks like the edge AA. In GPL the trees and bushes seem to straighten up just a bit as you approach, and the curved white lines on the track on the track seem to be bending right at the point where the FSAA is taking place. Overall it just seems like something is going on everywhere on the screen as you drive. I bought this thing because I expected it to clean every thing up and reduce eyestrain, but the FSAA seems to add eye strain, at least in those 2 games. Strangely, I just tried NASCAR 2000 and SCGT, and both of these games benefit immensely from FSAA and the V5. N2000 was so jaggy before it looked like a playstation game, but now it really looks nice. "Thud" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1dEX4.1199$[email hidden]... > I think this should be looked at. > One thing I'm curious about is, are the shapes really being changed,or is > it an optical illusion. > I remember some arguments a while back, mainly in first-personshooters when > 60+ fps became common, that many people complained the cards weredrawing > "double" or ghost images, when in fact is was an illusion createdwith > fast-moving objects at a high framerate (the eye would see twoconsecutive > frames "simultaneously" and thus be tricked into seeing double). > Obviously this is a different effect, but I wonder if it's anillusion as > well, having to do with the perception of where the edge is, andmaybe a > little bit of Field of View distortion thrown in there (racing gamesusually > have a higher FOV angle). Since edges by definition are alreadystraight, I > don't see how they can actually become "straightened." > > Naturally I haven't seen the effect for myself so I probably don'tknow what > I'm talking about. I'm just speculating. > > > Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:pvzX4.1503$[email hidden]... > > After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally gotmy > board > > yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > > > > While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you aredriving it > is > > more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, andViper > > Racing, and this is what I saw: > > > > In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edgeAA in > Glide > > mode on my V3 3000. > > > > In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAAin racing > > sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a goodthing. What > > you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past,the shape > of > > bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them. > > > > I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more > > distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also whereI > > discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locksup > > completely, at random but frequent intervals. > > > > In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildingsand trees > > are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame,because the > > lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > > > > Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would havesent it > back > > anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probablyset too > > high. > > > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawnto the > > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in thedistance, but > > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAAseems to be

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> > more of a problem than a solution. > > > > > > > > > >

> > Overall it just seems like something is going on everywhere on the > screen as you drive. I bought this thing because I expected it to > clean every thing up and reduce eyestrain, but the FSAA seems to add > eye strain, at least in those 2 games. And if you disable FSAA in these 2 games all looks normal?

Very interesting info - thanks. Glad I didn't rush out and buy the card. That's really interesting about the FSAA - I find little things like that *really* distracting (I couldn't stand the stuttering in the mirrors from the old GPL 1.0/V3 hack). One question - did the fill-rate get cranked to where you could just run GPL at a very high resolution? Thanks, Kendt On a similar vein - can a GeForce-2 and V3 PCI peacefully co-exist in the same system (with a switchbox for the monitor, of course)? In article <pvzX4.1503$[email hidden]>, "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got myboard > yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > > While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are drivingit is > more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and Viper > Racing, and this is what I saw: > > In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA inGlide > mode on my V3 3000. > > In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA inracing > sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good thing.What > you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past, theshape of

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> bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them. > > I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more > distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I > discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up > completely, at random but frequent intervals. > > In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and

trees > are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, becausethe > lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > > Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent itback > anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably settoo > high. > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn tothe > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance,but > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seemsto be > more of a problem than a solution. > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got my board yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are driving it is more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and Viper Racing, and this is what I saw: In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA in Glide mode on my V3 3000. In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in racing sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good thing. What you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past, the shape of bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them. I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up completely, at random but frequent intervals. In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and trees are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, because the lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent it back anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably set too high. FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn to the screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance, but for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seems to be more of a problem than a solution.

On the GeForce, I know that 32bit even at 800 x 600 is not playable on Rally Champ 2000. In fact, not all games need FSAA. Rally Champ 2000 seems fine without it. Also, most ingame menus do not work well when FSAA is enabled, even with MCM2. "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pvzX4.1503$[email hidden]...

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> After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got my board > yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > > While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are driving it is > more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and Viper > Racing, and this is what I saw: > > In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA in Glide > mode on my V3 3000. > > In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in racing > sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good thing. What > you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past, the shape of > bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them. > > I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more > distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I > discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up > completely, at random but frequent intervals. > > In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and trees > are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, because the > lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > > Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent it back > anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably set too > high. > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn to the > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance, but > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seems to be > more of a problem than a solution. > > > >

I didn't even try it without FSAA yet, or above 1024x768. FPS didn't seem to be an issue though, it was maxed out even with 4x FSAA and that's on my lowly PIII 500. For now I'm just going to put the $299 toward a new CPU, and shop for a video card after 3Dfx gets the bugs worked out and we get some info on the new ATI card. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8gmkav$lm5 > One question - did the fill-rate get cranked to where you could just run > GPL at a very high resolution?

Thanks Tracey. I was VERY curious to know if this was going to be what I'd hoped for, apparently not. [email hidden] (Tracey Miller) wrote in <pvzX4.1503$[email hidden]>:

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>After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got >my board yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > >While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are >driving it is more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, >GPL, and Viper Racing, and this is what I saw: > >In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA >in Glide mode on my V3 3000. > >In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in >racing sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good >thing. What you get is edges being straightened while you are >driving past, the shape of bridges and overpasses slightly change as >you approach them. > >I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more >distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I >discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up >completely, at random but frequent intervals. > >In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and >trees are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, >because the lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > >Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent >it back anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were >probably set too high. > >FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn >to the screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the >distance, but for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real >-time" FSAA seems to be more of a problem than a solution. > > > >

-- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

Kinda hard to be disappointed running gpl at 1600x1200 at full frame rates. What did you think the V5 was, the Second coming. "Don Scurlock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8F408EB72dscurlock@news...

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> Thanks Tracey. I was VERY curious to know if this was going to be > what I'd hoped for, apparently not. > > > > [email hidden] (Tracey Miller) wrote in > <pvzX4.1503$[email hidden]>: > > >After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got > >my board yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > > > >While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are > >driving it is more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, > >GPL, and Viper Racing, and this is what I saw: > > > >In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA > >in Glide mode on my V3 3000. > > > >In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in > >racing sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good > >thing. What you get is edges being straightened while you are > >driving past, the shape of bridges and overpasses slightly change as > >you approach them. > > > >I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more > >distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I > >discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up > >completely, at random but frequent intervals. > > > >In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and > >trees are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, > >because the lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > > > >Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent > >it back anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were > >probably set too high. > > > >FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn > >to the screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the > >distance, but for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real > >-time" FSAA seems to be more of a problem than a solution. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C.

Tracey, can you explain me something ?? I'm in the pre-order program, the card was due May 25th, which is today, but 3DFX delayed the sell due to small technical problem, and tehy delayed the sell 2 days ago... how did you got a card yesterday when it's was due for those who pre-ordered today, but unfortunatly delayed ??? I'm just curious... Eric http://www.simracingmag.com Tracey Miller wrote:

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> After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got my board > yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > > While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are driving it is > more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and Viper > Racing, and this is what I saw: > > In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA in Glide > mode on my V3 3000. > > In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in racing > sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good thing. What > you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past, the shape of > bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them. > > I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more > distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I > discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up > completely, at random but frequent intervals. > > In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and trees > are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, because the > lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > > Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent it back > anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably set too > high. > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn to the > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance, but > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seems to be > more of a problem than a solution.

I think this should be looked at. One thing I'm curious about is, are the shapes really being changed, or is it an optical illusion. I remember some arguments a while back, mainly in first-person shooters when 60+ fps became common, that many people complained the cards were drawing "double" or ghost images, when in fact is was an illusion created with fast-moving objects at a high framerate (the eye would see two consecutive frames "simultaneously" and thus be tricked into seeing double). Obviously this is a different effect, but I wonder if it's an illusion as well, having to do with the perception of where the edge is, and maybe a little bit of Field of View distortion thrown in there (racing games usually have a higher FOV angle). Since edges by definition are already straight, I don't see how they can actually become "straightened." Naturally I haven't seen the effect for myself so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just speculating. Tracey Miller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pvzX4.1503$[email hidden]... > After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got myboard > yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed. > > While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are driving itis > more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and Viper > Racing, and this is what I saw: > > In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA inGlide > mode on my V3 3000. > > In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in racing > sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good thing. What > you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past, the shapeof

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> bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them. > > I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more > distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I > discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up > completely, at random but frequent intervals. > > In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and trees > are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, because the > lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice. > > Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent it

back

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> anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably set too > high. > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn to the > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance, but > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seems to be > more of a problem than a solution. > > > >

Looks like I spoke too soon again, just had a lockup in GPL when I went to check fps so I could answer your question. Not sure what the deal is, but it only occurs in the one game I like best - GPL. Figures. On to your question; at 800x600 with 2x AA, the fps counter never drops below 36 on an empty track. I haven't tried with AI, I never race the AI other than to see their lap times. With 4x AA, the fps dips down to 30 early on, but averages around 34, pegged at 36 on the straight. At 1024x768 with 2x AA, it looks pretty much the same as 800x600 4x, but my monitor only runs 90hz refresh rate at that resolution so I prefer 800x600 120hz. The Fps counter remains at 36 all the way around the Glenn at that resolution also. At 4x at that resolution it's about the same as 800x600, averaging around 34 fps. 4X FSAA appears to be a much bigger hit than stepping up the resolution. I'm running a PIII 500 @560Mhz, 192Mb ram, Logitech FF wheel, with everything turned on, details all the way up and only the mirror setting turned down - to cars and track rather than full - and driving from the in-car view. I did check arcade view, and there, even at 4X FSAA, the framerate remained pegged at 36. "Daniel Lichtenberger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 27 May 2000 16:01:28 -0500, "Tracey A Miller" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >First I tried it without FSAA, just to see if it would lock up. No > >lockups but I was surprised at how bad it looked. I don't rememberGPL > >looking this "aliased" or jaggy. So I turned on 4X FSAA and I went > >almost a full hour without a lockup! > > Hi, > can you tell us something about the performance of 4x FSAA? On > www.simhq.com they said only 24 fps in 800x600 (apparently on anempty

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> track at Watkins Glen, with the GPL demo). With GPL, 24 fps on an > empty track will result in a rather choppy driving experience... > How does 2x FSAA look in comparison? > > tia > Daniel > > -- > ICQ UIN: 30333508 > http://www.topofgames.de || http://danielshome.cjb.net

"Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Phew, your last report is more in line with all the reviews I read. > I was worried for a moment. But problems with "some" games are to be > expected with "every" new 3D card. Hopefully 3dfx will be hard atwork > (as with the V3) updating the drivers to work with most of thegames. Yeah, it's just my luck though that the problems are with the 2 sims I care about most. They probably don't even know about the GPL lockups yet, since no one outside of this newsgroup plays it.

I think I expected the V5 to make GPL look like GPL2, but its more like going from GPL on a Playstation to GPL on a Dreamcast - same game, same graphics, just better, clearer. I guess you could say I'm still disappointed that FSAA wasn't everything I hoped it would be, nirvana, but now that I have the pausing problems solved there is no way I'm going to give up this card and go back to non-FSAA. Until they get this lockup problem with FSAA in GPL fixed though, I'll just have to play NFS PU to pass the time. "Andy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >I still don't like the effect FSAA has on Viper racing, but in GPLI > >don't think I can go back to driving without it. The "movement" Iwas > >seeing on the screen in GPL is there without FSAA, just much worse, > >FSAA is correcting it rather than causing it. > > So now you are saying FSAA is a good thing? Make up your mind would > ya! :-) I was just about ready to commit to a Geforce2 card, andnow > you had to go and post this. <G> (I do appreciate the feedback you > have been posting!) > What system are you running the V5 on? ( I must have missed it onthe > 1st post) > Thanks, > Andy > > Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

Ok, now I really feel like a moron. I went back and ran Viper Racing to get some before and after FSAA shots to show a friend what I was talking about. Guess what? The buildings at the Dundas track do the same thing with or without FSAA. Can someone that has Viper run a lap at Dundas and pay attention to the buildings on the right side of the track prior to the start finish line? The windows seem to grow right before my eyes as I'm driving past, but I never noticed this before the V5, and it does this with FSAA on or off. Assuming the V5 isn't causing this phenomenon, Viper Racing seems to be the game where FSAA actually has the least effect on. There just isn't much aliasing to fix, so switching between no FSAA, 2X FSAA, and 4X FSAA has little effect other than loss in framerate. "Tracey A Miller" wrote > I still don't like the effect FSAA has on Viper racing, but in GPL I > don't think I can go back to driving without it. The "movement" Iwas > seeing on the screen in GPL is there without FSAA, just much worse, > FSAA is correcting it rather than causing it.

That was something about a V2 tweak to make the colors appear correctly. The colors are fine for me in GPL, so I'm not sure what that would be. In desperation, I tried running the beta OpenGL rasterizer in GPL, but that didn't go anywhere. I finally got up the courage to go back and try GPL in Glide, for the first time since reloading Win 98 and making some configuration tweaks. First I tried it without FSAA, just to see if it would lock up. No lockups but I was surprised at how bad it looked. I don't remember GPL looking this "aliased" or jaggy. So I turned on 4X FSAA and I went almost a full hour without a lockup! I think the first evening I was looking around at the scenery expecting perfection and I didn't see it. Normally I really don't notice the scenery I guess. Going back to no FSAA was shocking though, I can't believe I played that way for 2 years without going blind! <G> What seems to have been the hang-up on my system was my SCSI card, it's bios was loading between the memory ranges which the V5 uses. Apparently the V5 is using ranges that it isn't reporting to Windows, so since I don't boot off the SCSI card, I disabled the bios and the pauses in Windows and lockups in GPL have stopped - so far at least. I still don't like the effect FSAA has on Viper racing, but in GPL I don't think I can go back to driving without it. The "movement" I was seeing on the screen in GPL is there without FSAA, just much worse, FSAA is correcting it rather than causing it. "Ed Solheim" <ed_solheim[SPAM-GUARD]@c2i.net> wrote in message news:R0UX4.1252$[email hidden]... > Tracey A Miller wrote: > > > For those that only play GPL and think anything else is a game,the V5 > > isn't for you. Even without FSAA and the great framerates it givesat > > high resolution, it crashes (locks up) every 20 minutes or so. > > Hopefully the next set of drivers will fix this. > > I just notice a post somewhere about someone who needed the "V2-fix"for GPL

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> to make work properly with the V5500.... > > See: http://www.sportplanet.com/gpl for more info. > > Perhaps you should try that? > > > -- > All the best, > Ed Solheim > ** Proud member of the GPLEA ** > (Remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply) > >

Why is it you are the only one to ever see or mention this problem 'anomaly' in games? There is probably something wrong with your system. > > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn to the > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance, but > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seems to be > more of a problem than a solution.

Heck if I know, but I doubt it's my system. I just doubt that many reviewers tried GPL or Viper Racing, and had I skipped these two and went straight to SCGT, Rally Championship, NFSHS & PU, DTR, etc. my initial impression would have been completely the opposite. Every non-Papy or MGI sim I've tried since that original post seems to benefit greatly from FSAA. NASCAR 2000 is like switching from a Playstation to a Dreamcast, very noticeable improvement. Having played F1 2000 on another system, I'm certain it would benefit also from FSAA just as SCGT does. The only conclusion I can make is that Papy and MGI do such a good job making a clean looking graphics engine that further "tweaking" of it on the fly produces the opposite results. If you have a non 3Dfx card and play N3, but are unable to use the anti-aliasing option, you will be impressed by the results of FSAA in N3. But it isn't *substantially* better than the edge only option on a V2/V3. For those that only play GPL and think anything else is a game, the V5 isn't for you. Even without FSAA and the great framerates it gives at high resolution, it crashes (locks up) every 20 minutes or so. Hopefully the next set of drivers will fix this. On everything else but Viper and GPL that I've tried now, FSAA is a welcome feature. If I played any of these other games often, it would be hard to go back to non-FSAA. It would just seem to be my luck that my two favorite games, where I was hoping to see the biggest improvements from FSAA, are actually degraded by FSAA - in GPL it causes lockups and in Viper it causes dynamic changes to trackside objects. "Destroy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:392ff176$0$[email hidden]... > Why is it you are the only one to ever see or mention this problem'anomaly' in > games? There is probably something wrong with your system. > > > > > > > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawnto the > > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in thedistance, but > > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAAseems to be > > more of a problem than a solution. >

The Geforce GTS2 and V3 3000 PCI work fine together with a switch box as that is what I am running. GPL also works fine with the GTS 2 as well. I prefer running GPL with it actually. I get 27 FPS for the first 2 seconds of a race with 19 AI and then it maxes out at 36 FPS for the rest of the race. The only game I use the V3 for these days is MGPRS2. F1 2000 and FSAA at 640x480 looks really good. The frame rate hit is not too bad and I would say it's around the same as 1024x768 with no FSAA. The screen does become a tad blurry with FSAA on but it looks more like what a TV can produce than anything else for those of you that want a comparison. You get use to it and it is quite hard to go back to non FSAA games. I think people have to realise that with these first generation FSAA cards that if you want good FPS then you have got to stick to 640x480 screen resolutions. It isn't as bad as it sounds as it looks like 1280x960. Bear in mind I'm also running this on a PC with a PIII 650E OC'ed to 866 so your mileage may vary. Darren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8gmkav$lm5$[email hidden]...

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> Thanks, > Kendt > > On a similar vein - can a Geforce-2 and V3 PCI peacefully co-exist in > the same system (with a switchbox for the monitor, of course)? > >

"Dave Henrie" wrote > I'm curious Tracey, > are you running SCGT and N2k in D3D mode or 3dfx? > I would think SCGT would benefit from AA especially > compared to N3. Probably F12k would also clean up > nicely. I'm running them in Glide mode. I tried N3 in D3D mode just to compare, and it was dreadful. Even though the framerate showed 30 fps, the screen jerked badly. I haven't tried F12k (don't have it), but yes, the N2K and SCGT are much better with FSAA vs. without. I did test NFSPU and DTR just now, and I'm beginning to take a shine to this card. NFS was especially nice because the cockpit is also AA'd, in the other games the cockpit is just a 2D overlay so it isn't AA'd. It's just my luck though that the 2 games I most wanted to see improvement in, Viper and GPL, I instead get a reduction in video quality. DOH!

I don't know, but I think they said the "issue" cards don't even work. There are definitely problems with it, but these appear to be driver related. I've ran the card for 8 hours straight tonight with no lockups, it just seems to be GPL that causes the lock ups. Since installing it though, my PC seems sluggish in Windows - pausing every once in a while as though there is some type of conflict. I've reinstalled Windows 98, my next step will be to try a complete format and re-install. "Curl" <curl99@ *SPAM_SUX* bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:pOGX4.13513$[email hidden]... > say, you think you have a card with the "issues" that caused theshipping > delay? > >

"Destroy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:392f4a3a$0 > And if you disable FSAA in these 2 games all looks normal? Sure, yeah, just like the V3 - except that it locks up in GPL and the V3 didn't.

say, you think you have a card with the "issues" that caused the shipping delay?

I would urge everyone here not to make to quick of a judgment based on one view. Not saying this view is invalid but you guys know how computers are.... -snip-

I'm curious Tracey, are you running SCGT and N2k in D3D mode or 3dfx? I would think SCGT would benefit from AA especially compared to N3. Probably F12k would also clean up nicely. dave henrie Tracey A Miller wrote: > > Strangely, I just tried NASCAR 2000 and SCGT, and both of these games > benefit immensely from FSAA and the V5. N2000 was so jaggy before it > looked like a playstation game, but now it really looks nice. >

On Fri, 26 May 2000 15:39:09 -0500, "Tracey Miller" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >For now I'm just going to put the $299 toward a new CPU, That's the option I took after mulling over the V5. Just ordered a P3 800E slot1 cpu instead, which means no slotket adapter needed on my BX mb and hopefully I should get it running at 900+mhz easily. -- Nos

On Fri, 26 May 2000 19:00:37 -0400, Eric Cote <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>Tracey, can you explain me something ?? > >I'm in the pre-order program, the card was due May 25th, which is today, but >3DFX delayed the sell due to small technical problem, and tehy delayed the sell >2 days ago... how did you got a card yesterday when it's was due for those who >pre-ordered today, but unfortunatly delayed ??? > > >I'm just curious...

I'm betting she got it from Egghead. They shipped the V5 before they were supposed to. Then told cistomers that they would not get a valid warranty from 3DFX. 3DFX have said that not is the case and said it was a misunderstanding between Egghead and them. -- Nos

On Sat, 27 May 2000 00:10:22 -0500, "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I don't know, but I think they said the "issue" cards don't even work. >There are definitely problems with it, but these appear to be driver >related. Alf from 3DFX said if you have the problem that has caused returns you wouldn't even be able run the install for the dirvers. So I don't think that is the cause of your problems. Crappy drivers? Now that wouldn't surprise me at all. -- Nos

On Sat, 27 May 2000 04:21:33 GMT, [email hidden] (Nos) wrote:

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>On Fri, 26 May 2000 15:39:09 -0500, "Tracey Miller" ><[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >>For now I'm just going to put the $299 toward a new CPU, > >That's the option I took after mulling over the V5. Just ordered a P3 >800E slot1 cpu instead, which means no slotket adapter needed on my BX >mb and hopefully I should get it running at 900+mhz easily.

Nos, What BX MB do you have? I'm wondering if I can go above a P3-600 on my Asus P3B-F? I think the 600 is as high as it can go though. :-( I hate the idea of buying a new MB and ram. :-( Thanks, Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

No. <G> The P3B-F can go as high as......well, no limit. As long as the fastest CPU from Intel is a coppermine and Asus has a new Bios update for it, you are ready. Considering overclocking. I had a fc-pga 500 on a P3B-F and overclocked to 750 using 150 MHz FSB. Now, a PIII550E overclocked to 825 on a Soyo 6VCA. Not sure if your PIII600 is or is not a coppermine. If not, I guess you can get it to 650 just by increasing the FSB. If a coppermine, 800 is possible just by increasing the FSB to 133 MHz. "Andy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sat, 27 May 2000 04:21:33 GMT, [email hidden] (Nos) wrote: > > >On Fri, 26 May 2000 15:39:09 -0500, "Tracey Miller" > ><[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > > > > >>For now I'm just going to put the $299 toward a new CPU, > > > >That's the option I took after mulling over the V5. Just ordered a P3 > >800E slot1 cpu instead, which means no slotket adapter needed on my BX > >mb and hopefully I should get it running at 900+mhz easily. > > Nos, > What BX MB do you have? I'm wondering if I can go above a P3-600 on > my Asus P3B-F? I think the 600 is as high as it can go though. > I hate the idea of buying a new MB and ram. :-( > Thanks, > Andy > > Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

It will definitely be interesting to see if others share your sentiment... BTW what are your system specs? "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:393009ea$0$[email hidden]... -snip- > For those that only play GPL and think anything else is a game, the V5 > isn't for you. Even without FSAA and the great framerates it gives at > high resolution, it crashes (locks up) every 20 minutes or so. > Hopefully the next set of drivers will fix this. >-snip-

Tracey A Miller wrote: > For those that only play GPL and think anything else is a game, the V5 > isn't for you. Even without FSAA and the great framerates it gives at > high resolution, it crashes (locks up) every 20 minutes or so. > Hopefully the next set of drivers will fix this. I just notice a post somewhere about someone who needed the "V2-fix" for GPL to make work properly with the V5500.... See: http://www.sportplanet.com/gpl for more info. Perhaps you should try that? -- All the best, Ed Solheim ** Proud member of the GPLEA ** (Remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply)

On Sat, 27 May 2000 17:14:02 GMT, "Victor Chan" <[email hidden]> wrote: >No. <G> The P3B-F can go as high as......well, no limit. As long as the fastest CPU from >Intel is a coppermine and Asus has a new Bios update for it, you are ready. Considering >overclocking. I had a fc-pga 500 on a P3B-F and overclocked to 750 using 150 MHz FSB. >Now, a PIII550E overclocked to 825 on a Soyo 6VCA. Not sure if your PIII600 is or is not >a coppermine. If not, I guess you can get it to 650 just by increasing the FSB. If a >coppermine, 800 is possible just by increasing the FSB to 133 MHz. Ok, I'm lost. (which is my usual state) :-) I thought the "new" coppermine chips required a different core voltage, or something. I have an older P3 that isn't a coppermine. (doesn't the coppermine use .18 micron?) Mine is .25 I believe. So you are saying I can go buy any CPU as long as it is a coppermine and just plug it in to my MB? (as long as Asus releases a bios update) I also thought the coppermine chips ran on a 133 FSB? I know I can push my FSB that high, but I thought that would mess up other things. Thanks for the info! Off to check the Asus site for a bios upgrade. :-) Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

On Sat, 27 May 2000 16:01:28 -0500, "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I still don't like the effect FSAA has on Viper racing, but in GPL I >don't think I can go back to driving without it. The "movement" I was >seeing on the screen in GPL is there without FSAA, just much worse, >FSAA is correcting it rather than causing it. So now you are saying FSAA is a good thing? Make up your mind would ya! :-) I was just about ready to commit to a Geforce2 card, and now you had to go and post this. <G> (I do appreciate the feedback you have been posting!) What system are you running the V5 on? ( I must have missed it on the 1st post) Thanks, Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

On Sat, 27 May 2000 16:01:28 -0500, "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >First I tried it without FSAA, just to see if it would lock up. No >lockups but I was surprised at how bad it looked. I don't remember GPL >looking this "aliased" or jaggy. So I turned on 4X FSAA and I went >almost a full hour without a lockup! Hi, can you tell us something about the performance of 4x FSAA? On www.simhq.com they said only 24 fps in 800x600 (apparently on an empty track at Watkins Glen, with the GPL demo). With GPL, 24 fps on an empty track will result in a rather choppy driving experience... How does 2x FSAA look in comparison? tia Daniel -- ICQ UIN: 30333508 http://www.topofgames.de || http://danielshome.cjb.net

"Mats Lofkvist" wrote

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> Tracey, if you have the time could you please run the following > test so we can get a set of performance figures that are a bit > easier to compare to our current systems? > > - Max out _all_ graphics and sound options (in-car view, > detail bias slider at max, all textures, all objects, > full mirrors, max no of sound etc). > > - Start a race at Monaco with 19 AI by skipping the > training so you end up at the end of the grid. > > - Stay put at the start and write down > > 1/ The minimum framerate (when the AI starts the race) > 2/ The framerate when the last AI disappears behind the > the first right-hander. > 3/ The maximum framerate before you are thrown out. > > > I'm most interrested in the results for 1280x1024 and 1600x1200 > without, with 2x and with 4x FSAA, but whatever you can manage > is better than nothing. > > > > Here are some figures for reference: > > > Pentium Pro 233, Voodoo 2, Soundblaster ? > > 800x600 1024x768 > 1 4 3 > 2 7 6 > 3 11 11 > > > Athlon 700, Voodoo 3/3000, Soundblaster Live > > 800x600 1024x768 1280x1024 1600x1200 > 1 25 21 18 17 > 2 36 36 32 26 > 3 36 36 36 31

I can't run any FSAA tests right now with AI, it locks up just loading up the cars onto pitroad. There is definitely a compatibility problem with GPL's glide rasterizer, and running with AI makes whatever it is worse. The Non-FSAA are basically CPU limited, as follows: 800x600 1024x768 1280x1024 1600x1200 1 20 19 18 17 2 29 28 26 24 3 36 36 36 36 The AI is really meaningless for the graphics card, if my processor could handle 36fps on the grid, so could the video card. I would have disabled the lock vsync to refresh rate prior to running the tests, 120hz vsync vs. 60hz makes a big difference, but there isn't an option available. One interesting thing in this test is that the V5 can do 36fps at 1600x1200 once the AI was gone, where the V3 could only do 31 even with a faster processor. Also, looking at 1600x1200 for the first time I can tell you that 800x600 with 4X FSAA as well as 1024X768 with 2X FSAA look better, especially since my refresh rate is only 60Hz at that resolution, but for the moment FSAA in GPL isn't a reliable option on the V5.

Well it may have been a bit of an exaggeration, which obviously hurt your wittle feewings, but lets face reality; 3Dfx didn't delay shipping because of compatibility problems with a two year old game that didn't sell very well when it was brand new. You may want to let those 2 or 3 guys on Vroc that don't know what RAS is know that FSAA has compatibility problems in GPL on the V5. "Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <39306171$0$[email hidden]>, "Tracey A Miller" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > . > > > >Yeah, it's just my luck though that the problems are with the 2 > sims I > >care about most. They probably don't even know about the GPL > lockups > >yet, since no one outside of this newsgroup plays it. > > > > > > I think thats a very ignorant comment. How do you know that no > other people apart those in this NG play GPL? When I go to > WinVroc or the Hotlap pages most of the names I see there I > don't see in this group. > > There's a big world out there! > > Chris > > > > > > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion

Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet -Free! >

Tracey A Miller wrote:

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> > "Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > Phew, your last report is more in line with all the reviews I read. > > I was worried for a moment. But problems with "some" games are to be > > expected with "every" new 3D card. Hopefully 3dfx will be hard at > work > > (as with the V3) updating the drivers to work with most of the > games. > > Yeah, it's just my luck though that the problems are with the 2 sims I > care about most. They probably don't even know about the GPL lockups > yet, since no one outside of this newsgroup plays it.

You do know Murphy, don't you? ;^) -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Andy wrote: > snip > > I too am having high hopes for the FSAA feature. I dunno, I guess I > was expecting major leaps in terms of graphics with this feature > alone. At least I know what to expect now, so hopefully I won't be All the previews I read up to now consider it a major leap, at least the tester ALL agreed on not being able to go back to no FSAA... > real disappointed. I'm going to hold off a bit and see how the > drivers come along, and how far CPU prices drop. The two racing sims > I play the most are GPL, and N3, and lately some NSF PU. > I also enjoy flight sims as well, so I'll wait for some reviews from > the flight sim groups to see how it fairs with them. I read a FSAA test using Falcon4 and the tester just loved the result, no texture swimming, enemy planes not being jumpy collections of pixels anymore, etc. They loved it, I just hope they don't need glasses. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Tracey A Miller wrote: > snip > > I think the first evening I was looking around at the scenery > expecting perfection and I didn't see it. Normally I really don't > notice the scenery I guess. Going back to no FSAA was shocking though, > I can't believe I played that way for 2 years without going blind! <G> Phew, your last report is more in line with all the reviews I read. I was worried for a moment. But problems with "some" games are to be expected with "every" new 3D card. Hopefully 3dfx will be hard at work (as with the V3) updating the drivers to work with most of the games. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Sat, 27 May 2000 16:26:15 GMT, [email hidden] (Andy) thus spoke:

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>Nos, >What BX MB do you have? I'm wondering if I can go above a P3-600 on >my Asus P3B-F? I think the 600 is as high as it can go though. :-( >I hate the idea of buying a new MB and ram. :-( >Thanks, >Andy >

I have an MSI 6163pro. Highest clock cycle on that my mb is 8x. Look in your bios and see what the highest clock cycle you can set it to is. Should be higher than 6x, butyou may need to update the bios to get them. I heard that you can put in a higher clock cycle than the bios says anyway, but I also heard it can cause problems. -- Nos

On Sat, 27 May 2000 22:33:58 GMT, [email hidden] (Andy) thus spoke:

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>Ok, I'm lost. (which is my usual state) :-) I thought the "new" >coppermine chips required a different core voltage, or something. >I have an older P3 that isn't a coppermine. (doesn't the coppermine >use .18 micron?) Mine is .25 I believe. >So you are saying I can go buy any CPU as long as it is a coppermine >and just plug it in to my MB? (as long as Asus releases a bios update) >I also thought the coppermine chips ran on a 133 FSB? >I know I can push my FSB that high, but I thought that would mess up >other things. >Thanks for the info! Off to check the Asus site for a bios upgrade. >:-) >Andy >

The voltage is adjustable in the bios. If your cpu has an E designation with 256k L2 cache it is coppermine running on a 100mhz FSB. If it is 512K then it is the older .25 die. B designatess it as 133mhz FSB,you can buy both 133mhz FSB and 100mhz. 100mhz is much better for overclocking. Pushing the FSB too high can cause problems for the video card and/or the hard drive. I'm surprised he can run the FSB at 150mhz. > >Please use [email hidden] for all email replies -- Nos

Tracey A Miller wrote: > > Heck if I know, but I doubt it's my system. I just doubt that many > reviewers tried GPL or Viper Racing, and had I skipped these two and > went straight to SCGT, Rally Championship, NFSHS & PU, DTR, etc. my > initial impression would have been completely the opposite. > I know the experience that Tracey is talking about. when the tracks from ICR2 were converted to N2 and 3dfx, then all the textures would get drawn just as you arrived. It was very disconcerting, especially when whole textures had been replaced,(billboards etc.) Extremely tough to keep you eye on the road when everything around it was looking like it was being unrolled on both sides of you. dave henrie

On Sun, 28 May 2000 00:23:02 GMT, [email hidden] (Nos) wrote:

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> >The voltage is adjustable in the bios. If your cpu has an E >designation with 256k L2 cache it is coppermine running on a 100mhz >FSB. If it is 512K then it is the older .25 die. B designatess it as >133mhz FSB,you can buy both 133mhz FSB and 100mhz. 100mhz is much >better for overclocking. Pushing the FSB too high can cause problems >for the video card and/or the hard drive. I'm surprised he can run the >FSB at 150mhz.

Nos, Thanks for the info. I was looking at some CPU's and notice they have them rated for either 100 or 133 FSB, so I guess I can put any CPU in that runs on the 100 FSB. (assuming my bios will support the proper voltage and clock rate) I'll check and see what clock cycle my current bios supports next time I reboot, but I think it goes up at 8 as well. Also, checked the Asus site, and saw there are a few new revisions out. Flashing my MB bios scares me a bit though. :-) Thanks again for the info much appreciated! Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

On Sat, 27 May 2000 19:18:40 -0500, "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I think I expected the V5 to make GPL look like GPL2, but its more >like going from GPL on a Playstation to GPL on a Dreamcast - same >game, same graphics, just better, clearer. > >I guess you could say I'm still disappointed that FSAA wasn't >everything I hoped it would be, nirvana, but now that I have the >pausing problems solved there is no way I'm going to give up this card >and go back to non-FSAA.

I too am having high hopes for the FSAA feature. I dunno, I guess I was expecting major leaps in terms of graphics with this feature alone. At least I know what to expect now, so hopefully I won't be real disappointed. I'm going to hold off a bit and see how the drivers come along, and how far CPU prices drop. The two racing sims I play the most are GPL, and N3, and lately some NSF PU. I also enjoy flight sims as well, so I'll wait for some reviews from the flight sim groups to see how it fairs with them. Thanks for the info! Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

Yes, the P3B is coppermine ready. When you have a coppermine installed, the voltage is automatically detected. About the FSB issue, you can use 133 MHz FSB but the AGP bus speed would be at 89 MHz which my cause problems to your AGP card. Boards supporting "officially" 133 MHz FSB would have a 1/2 AGP clock divider which results in 66 MHz. The BX chipset only supports either 1/1 or 2/3 AGP clock divider. "Andy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 27 May 2000 17:14:02 GMT, "Victor Chan" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >No. <G> The P3B-F can go as high as......well, no limit. As long as the fastest CPUfrom > >Intel is a coppermine and Asus has a new Bios update for it, you are ready.Considering > >overclocking. I had a fc-pga 500 on a P3B-F and overclocked to 750 using 150 MHz FSB. > >Now, a PIII550E overclocked to 825 on a Soyo 6VCA. Not sure if your PIII600 is or isnot

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> >a coppermine. If not, I guess you can get it to 650 just by increasing the FSB. If a > >coppermine, 800 is possible just by increasing the FSB to 133 MHz. > > Ok, I'm lost. (which is my usual state) :-) I thought the "new" > coppermine chips required a different core voltage, or something. > I have an older P3 that isn't a coppermine. (doesn't the coppermine > use .18 micron?) Mine is .25 I believe. > So you are saying I can go buy any CPU as long as it is a coppermine > and just plug it in to my MB? (as long as Asus releases a bios update) > I also thought the coppermine chips ran on a 133 FSB? > I know I can push my FSB that high, but I thought that would mess up > other things. > Thanks for the info! Off to check the Asus site for a bios upgrade. > :-) > Andy > > > Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

"Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Assuming the V5 isn't causing this phenomenon No phenomenon, it is called 'level of detail' and it is done for the very valid purpose of keeping the triangle count within a certain budget. If you want to see the worst implementation of LOD run Interstate 76. - George

On Sun, 28 May 2000 04:12:40 GMT, "Victor Chan" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Yes, the P3B is coppermine ready. When you have a coppermine installed, the voltage is >automatically detected. About the FSB issue, you can use 133 MHz FSB but the AGP bus >speed would be at 89 MHz which my cause problems to your AGP card. Boards supporting >"officially" 133 MHz FSB would have a 1/2 AGP clock divider which results in 66 MHz. The >BX chipset only supports either 1/1 or 2/3 AGP clock divider. Victor, Wow, I didn't know the P3B was coppermine ready, for once I get lucky. :-) I noticed that they are making CPU's that are rated for either a 133 FSB or a 100 FSB, so I'll just get the one rated for a 100 FSB, a new bios and I should be good to go. :-) You guys have saved me a lot of time and some money! Many thanks! Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

On Sun, 28 May 2000 15:08:27 +0200, Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> wrote: > >All the previews I read up to now consider it a major leap, at least >the tester ALL agreed on not being able to go back to no FSAA... That is exactly what I have been reading as well. (Until Tracey posted anyway) :-)

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>> real disappointed. I'm going to hold off a bit and see how the >> drivers come along, and how far CPU prices drop. The two racing sims >> I play the most are GPL, and N3, and lately some NSF PU. >> I also enjoy flight sims as well, so I'll wait for some reviews from >> the flight sim groups to see how it fairs with them. > >I read a FSAA test using Falcon4 and the tester just loved the result, >no texture swimming, enemy planes not being jumpy collections of pixels >anymore, etc. They loved it, I just hope they don't need glasses.

I'm probably going to give one a try in a few months and see for myself. Then save up for a new CPU for N4, and hopefully I'll be all set. The only thing that has be wondering is N4 is suppose to have T&L support. (Also I think B17-2 is suppose to support T&L) While I like eye candy as much as the next guy, I'd rather give some up for a faster frame rate. I'm just not sure which card will offer the better frame rate. (I guess no one knows) :-) Andy Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

Tracey, if you have the time could you please run the following test so we can get a set of performance figures that are a bit easier to compare to our current systems? - Max out _all_ graphics and sound options (in-car view, detail bias slider at max, all textures, all objects, full mirrors, max no of sound etc). - Start a race at Monaco with 19 AI by skipping the training so you end up at the end of the grid. - Stay put at the start and write down 1/ The minimum framerate (when the AI starts the race) 2/ The framerate when the last AI disappears behind the the first right-hander. 3/ The maximum framerate before you are thrown out. I'm most interrested in the results for 1280x1024 and 1600x1200 without, with 2x and with 4x FSAA, but whatever you can manage is better than nothing. Here are some figures for reference: Pentium Pro 233, Voodoo 2, Soundblaster ? 800x600 1024x768 1 4 3 2 7 6 3 11 11 Athlon 700, Voodoo 3/3000, Soundblaster Live 800x600 1024x768 1280x1024 1600x1200 1 25 21 18 17 2 36 36 32 26 3 36 36 36 31 _ Mats Lofkvist [email hidden]

Andy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sun, 28 May 2000 04:12:40 GMT, "Victor Chan" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > Victor, > Wow, I didn't know the P3B was coppermine ready, for once I get lucky. > :-) > I noticed that they are making CPU's that are rated for either a 133 > FSB or a 100 FSB, so I'll just get the one rated for a 100 FSB, a new > bios and I should be good to go. :-) You guys have saved me a lot of > time and some money! Many thanks! > Andy

And the really neat thing with getting the "e" - 100 mhz bus, is they are relatively easy to overclock by upping your bus speed if your motherboard permits. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566

"Mats Lofkvist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... -snip- > I'm most interrested in the results for 1280x1024 and 1600x1200 > without, with 2x and with 4x FSAA, but whatever you can manage > is better than nothing.-snip- You really do not need to run these high resolutions using 4x FSAA. If you sat down with two computers, one running 800x600 FSAA and the other 1280x1024 (and you did not know which was which) I can almost guarantee you would prefer the 800x600 4x FSAA.

On Sun, 28 May 2000 09:45:30 -0500, "George M. Smiley" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> Assuming the V5 isn't causing this phenomenon > >No phenomenon, it is called 'level of detail' and it is >done for the very valid purpose of keeping the triangle >count within a certain budget. > >If you want to see the worst implementation of LOD >run Interstate 76.

Oh yeah...hehe...that was truly awful. <g> Daniel -- ICQ UIN: 30333508 http://www.topofgames.de || http://danielshome.cjb.net

In article <39306171$0$[email hidden]>, "Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >. > >Yeah, it's just my luck though that the problems are with the 2sims I >care about most. They probably don't even know about the GPLlockups >yet, since no one outside of this newsgroup plays it. > > I think thats a very ignorant comment. How do you know that no other people apart those in this NG play GPL? When I go to WinVroc or the Hotlap pages most of the names I see there I don't see in this group. There's a big world out there! Chris > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

It's an option within NASCAR 3, under graphics. "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tracey A Miller wrote: > > > > If you have a non 3Dfx card and play N3, but are unable to use the > > anti-aliasing option, you will be impressed by the results of FSAAin > > N3. But it isn't *substantially* better than the edge only optionon a > > V2/V3. > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but how do you enable edge AA on a Voodoo 3card? > > -Gregor

"Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> I can't run any FSAA tests right now with AI, it locks up just loading > up the cars onto pitroad. There is definitely a compatibility problem > with GPL's glide rasterizer, and running with AI makes whatever it is > worse. > > The Non-FSAA are basically CPU limited, as follows: > 800x600 1024x768 1280x1024 1600x1200 > 1 20 19 18 17 > 2 29 28 26 24 > 3 36 36 36 36 > > The AI is really meaningless for the graphics card, if my processor > could handle 36fps on the grid, so could the video card. I would have > disabled the lock vsync to refresh rate prior to running the > tests, 120hz vsync vs. 60hz makes a big difference, but there isn't an > option available.

The AI adds graphics load, but of course it is more a system test than a graphics test since they also add a lot of CPU load.

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> One interesting thing in this test is that the V5 can do 36fps at > 1600x1200 once the AI was gone, where the V3 could only do 31 even > with a faster processor. > > Also, looking at 1600x1200 for the first time I can tell you that > 800x600 with 4X FSAA as well as 1024X768 with 2X FSAA look better, > especially since my refresh rate is only 60Hz at that resolution, but > for the moment FSAA in GPL isn't a reliable option on the V5.

I agree that FSAA is best used at lower resolutions, but it is easier to compare numbers if both with and without FSAA is tested at the same resolutions. The real killer app for FSAA imo is to use it with a projector; that would finally make it possible to get a large enough screen to make the field of view correct without the blockiness you would usually get from the relatively low resolution. Thanks for running the tests! _ Mats Lofkvist [email hidden]

Tracey A Miller wrote: > > If you have a non 3Dfx card and play N3, but are unable to use the > anti-aliasing option, you will be impressed by the results of FSAA in > N3. But it isn't *substantially* better than the edge only option on a > V2/V3. > Excuse my ignorance, but how do you enable edge AA on a Voodoo 3 card? -Gregor

get the 133 Mhz coppermine, the board will automatically detect the proper fsb, and with some 133Mhz memory you'll be able to do some overclocking!!! Sudesh Andy wrote:

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> > On Sun, 28 May 2000 04:12:40 GMT, "Victor Chan" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Yes, the P3B is coppermine ready. When you have a coppermine installed, the voltage is > >automatically detected. About the FSB issue, you can use 133 MHz FSB but the AGP bus > >speed would be at 89 MHz which my cause problems to your AGP card. Boards supporting > >"officially" 133 MHz FSB would have a 1/2 AGP clock divider which results in 66 MHz. The > >BX chipset only supports either 1/1 or 2/3 AGP clock divider. > > Victor, > Wow, I didn't know the P3B was coppermine ready, for once I get lucky. > :-) > I noticed that they are making CPU's that are rated for either a 133 > FSB or a 100 FSB, so I'll just get the one rated for a 100 FSB, a new > bios and I should be good to go. :-) You guys have saved me a lot of > time and some money! Many thanks! > Andy > > Please use [email hidden] for all email replies

amos-opus wrote: > > get the 133 Mhz coppermine, the board will automatically detect the > proper fsb, and with some 133Mhz memory you'll be able to do some > overclocking!!! Sorry, but the ASUS P3B won't autodetect the 133Mhz FSB, you will have to set it manually in the BIOS options, furthermore, the 133Mhz FSB CPU's are not ideal for overclocking on a BX based board like the P3B, the 100Mhz FSB are a much better option for overclocking Having said that, I'm currently running a 600/133 on a P3B and have had it running at 675/150, but not stable enough to be usable..... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

sorry, i meant the proccesor will revert to 100Mhz........but it leaves something in hand for later... Sudesh Goy Larsen wrote:

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> > amos-opus wrote: > > > > get the 133 Mhz coppermine, the board will automatically detect the > > proper fsb, and with some 133Mhz memory you'll be able to do some > > overclocking!!! > > Sorry, but the ASUS P3B won't autodetect the 133Mhz FSB, you will have > to set it manually in the BIOS options, furthermore, the 133Mhz FSB > CPU's are not ideal for overclocking on a BX based board like the P3B, > the 100Mhz FSB are a much better option for overclocking > > Having said that, I'm currently running a 600/133 on a P3B and have had > it running at 675/150, but not stable enough to be usable..... > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com