First Racing get surly

What's up with this? http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/ First Racing get surly Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons Related entries: Driving, PC A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least until today it did. First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> What's up with this? > > > http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/ > > First Racing get surly > > Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons > Related entries: Driving, PC > > A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are > probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys > great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR > Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least > until today it did. > > First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter > to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods > are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially > cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you > have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same > individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place?

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see the reaction to this. EA gets slammed for being a sole license holder, etc., so same should apply here it would seem. But it probably won't, if ya follow <wink> >

I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explains the difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last line of his post regarding GTP. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... : What's up with this? : : : http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/ : : First Racing get surly : : Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons : Related entries: Driving, PC : : A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are : probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys : great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR : Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least : until today it did. : : First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter : to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods : are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially : cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you : have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same : individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place? :

"Bob V" wrote: > I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the > post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explainsthe > difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last > line of his post regarding GTP. Any updates are viewed as "acceptable only if it doesn�t violate third party trademarks or other intellectual property rights (such as logos, car designs or tracks owned by other parties)." Which pretty much covers anything that is trying to replicate something real, be it a car, the sponsors logos or a real life track. I'm more than happy for Kaemmer and co to produce a stream of releases based on his new engine. Touring cars, rally cars, street cars, open wheel, dirt cars etc. so we can pick the ones we want. Maybe now released from the shackles of the publishers it will happen as was the apparent aim when the GPL engine was produced. However, the lack of a non Nascar title for over 6 years has meant the fans of the Kaemmer based engines have only been satisfied by the modding teams, so it seems a bit rich to be throwing some weight around before there is anything tangible for the non nascar sim community. The same community that kept his products alive and maintained a core set of fans. As for the car analogies, innovation doesn't last long before it is copied. All the manufacturers can do is to aim to be a step ahead. If Kaemmer belives cars are not reverse engineered to be copied then he is being very naive. The common rail diesel engine was invented by Fiat a year before GPL. Now most diesel powered cars use common rail technology and Fiat is on its second generation common rail design along with pretty much everyone else. Plus modding cars is a career rather than a hobby for many... The advantage Kaemmer has over the modders is he has the resources and dedicated time to be innovative, whilst the modders have to play catch up with limited resource (most have day jobs and limited access to tolls of the trade). All he has to do is to innovate and there is no problem. With the time it takes to tool up a factory copying an existing competitors cars will simply mean you are behind the next version by the time it comes out. Similarly producing software including modding takes a long time. A mod based on NR2003 should only be of interest if there is nothing of that genre available, otherwise the 2005 version of the game engine should be the one the choice. The modders end up modifying the physics due to no suitable retail product being available. Other games software companies are actively encouraging modding (such as "make something Unreal") presumably because they believe it will enhance interest in their products and gain future sales. embracing the community rather than trying to suppress it. So fairly unimpressed with First Racing's start so far... Tony

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> What's up with this? > > > http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/ > > First Racing get surly > > Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons > Related entries: Driving, PC > > A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are > probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys > great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR > Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least > until today it did. > > First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter > to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods > are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially > cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you > have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same > individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place? > >

They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is that so hard to understand? They'r merely clarifying their position.

John Simmons wrote: > They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), whyis > that so hard to understand It's antagonistic towards the community that buys and supports their products. The reason why I see it as such, is that I have yet to see a mod for a Papyrus or any other game/sim that has not required the purchase of the original product. This includes GPL65, GTR, the Trans Am mod for NR2003, etc. Now if a company or individual came along and was distributing Papyrus products, then I can see their point. But that's an entirely different set of circumstances and most of us here would be in complete agreement that it's wrong and needs to be curtailed. I think there are quite a few mods that wouldn't be available for GPL if this policy was enforced. This includes a well known track converter, GPL 65, and probably a dozen more enhancements of which I have no knowledge. I can see their point, but it's creating ill will before they've even shipped a product. Do you think they stopped to think that if they were providing good, solid content (mods) on their own that private individuals wouldn't feel the need to produce their own content? Thus negating the need to take an antagonistic stand right off the bat.

"John Simmons" wrote: > They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is > that so hard to understand? > > They'r merely clarifying their position. That is clear. Although it does gives us a (hopefully misleading) message that the modders can compete with what First Racing are planning to launch. I was hoping for more innovation than a tweaked NR2003. In my view First Racing need to establish themselves as the leaders in sim racing and then aim to stay there through quality product releases, rather than rely on stopping others use their old stuff.

<[email hidden]> wrote: > I can see their point, but it's creating ill will before they've even > shipped a product. Do you think they stopped to think that if they > were providing good, solid content (mods) on their own that private > individuals wouldn't feel the need to produce their own content? Thus > negating the need to take an antagonistic stand right off the bat. I quite agree. Take a close look at the article again: http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/ Would Grand Prix Legends still enjoy success today and the loss of Papy be mourned by non Nascar fans without the mods? Nothing graphically in that image is produced by Papy, yet the image looks as good as pretty much any other modern sim. In my view this allows First Racing to be taken seriously, otherwise Kaemmer would be remembered by those that played GPL in the late 90s and little known to the newcomers. It smacks of a lack of confidence in their new stuff and seems a PR gaff to me.

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:mO5Wd.28682$[email hidden]: > So fairly unimpressed with First Racing's start so far... > > Tony > Agreed, I have been a Papyrus/Kaemmer supporter for it seems like a decade. I am, however, totally deflated by this current stand. They are protecting outdated code. Surely they can't believe a mod will attract attention if it only LOOKS like a gtp car? Sure it drives like a Nascar Tank, but trust us...it LOOKS like a Porche 962. Several points jump out at me. ISI is making at least some cash selling the tools they use to create thier sims to modders. Not all groups and not all mods, but some folks have paid cash. Not to license the cars, logos, tracks, or whatever, but the tools to create new stuff that ISI doesn't have the time or resources to address themselves. Simbin and GTR would NOT exist today if the original FIA V3 2k1 mod "looked" like a Viper or a Ferrari 550 but drove like an F1 rocket. RSDG would not be creating new mods based on sportscars if they drove like F1 cars. RSR's brilliant ETCC touring car mod would be a COMPLETE FREEAKING DISASTER if it drove like an dang EFF One car. Yet that is the constraint First is demanding. Feel free to mess with the shapes, sounds, graphics...but don't you dare make the cars lighter, or heavier, or lower, or or or.... Finally the exe that FIRST is so jealously protecting has been hacked for a long time now. There isn't anything in there that SOMEBODY hasn't already pried apart and poked and prodded and massaged. This defense of secrets that are not secrets is obsured. and one more finally... To use the FIRST auto analogy. Suppose BMW makes an M3, but somebody finds a way to build a custom part that IMPROVES the M3. Does BMW scream bloody murder? Do they sic lawyers on a guy whose new pipe or chip increases the performance of the M3? No, they say thanks for creating something that increases sales of my product and improves the value of said product to those who have already purchased it. I was lucky enough to get the GTP v1.0 release. I am tempted to flood the binaries newsgroups....tempted... I have known folks in the company via the net for years. Sites like theuspits have worked hand in hand with that team, fine way to keep in touch Dave.. dave henrie

Mr Simmons spoke: They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is that so hard to understand? They're merely clarifying their position. ------------------- I agree. I think that whatever they are producing had better be freekin amazing, or quite a few sim racers will be looking the other way. At the moment though, I have a bad taste in my mouth about this. -- Richard "ZZ" Busch http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif Member: Screamers Racing League oAo AoA MARA GTR GT Rank +36.233 NGT Rank +41.093 GT Rank Monster +1214.979 GPL Rank + 14.768 MoGPL Rank + 308.654 N2003 Rank -18.8060 ---------------- Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward ----------------- ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

I was lucky enough to get the GTP v1.0 release. I am tempted to flood the binaries newsgroups....tempted... I have known folks in the company via the net for years. Sites like theuspits have worked hand in hand with that team, fine way to keep in touch Dave.. dave henrie ---------------------------- There's always BitTorrent for mods. No one will know where or who it came from. I think they'll just force modders underground. -- Richard "ZZ" Busch http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif Member: Screamers Racing League oAo AoA MARA GTR GT Rank +36.233 NGT Rank +41.093 GT Rank Monster +1214.979 GPL Rank + 14.768 MoGPL Rank + 308.654 N2003 Rank -18.8060 ---------------- Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward ----------------- ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > What's up with this? > > > > > > http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/ > > > > First Racing get surly > > > > Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons > > Related entries: Driving, PC > > > > A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are > > probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys > > great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR > > Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least > > until today it did. > > > > First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter > > to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods > > are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially > > cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you > > have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same > > individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place? > > > > > > They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is > that so hard to understand? > > They'r merely clarifying their position.

Hardly. Having read/heard about this, makes one wonder if the Papy moans about Sierra in the past now need to be taken with a grain of salt...............

FWIW, I think the key to this whole issue is in understanding what is being said and also implied by this part of the letter: "We at FIRST-Racing.net plan on creating terrific experiences for racers and racing enthusiasts, but to do this, we must operate a profitable company." I think we can all understand and appreciate this point. FIRST will be facing stiff competition over the next couple of years in a market that is relatively small to begin with. They need to keep a competitive edge where they are strong (multiplayer, physics) while playing catch-up where they are relatively weaker compared to the challengers (graphics, immersion). The last thing they can afford at this point is to end up competing with their own code base in the form of mods. The fantastic job that Redline did with GTP, and in particular the way it was packaged, moved this scenerio by some amount along a line from purely hypothetical to something just short of possible. I understand the negative reactions to the announcement, but I think we should see the very obvious exception at the bottom, a GTP remix, as a sign that they are trying to navigate this issue with some sensitivity and that Dave has not forgotten the contributions the community has made back to Papyrus, particularly in regards to GPL. -- Just my thoughts, YMMV

"Garth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bL9Wd.16868$[email hidden]...

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> FWIW, I think the key to this whole issue is in understanding what is > being said and also implied by this part of the letter: > > "We at FIRST-Racing.net plan on creating terrific experiences for racers > and racing enthusiasts, but to do this, we must operate a profitable > company." > > I think we can all understand and appreciate this point. FIRST will be > facing stiff competition over the next couple of years in a market that > is relatively small to begin with. They need to keep a competitive edge > where they are strong (multiplayer, physics) while playing catch-up > where they are relatively weaker compared to the challengers (graphics, > immersion). > > The last thing they can afford at this point is to end up competing with > their own code base in the form of mods. The fantastic job that Redline > did with GTP, and in particular the way it was packaged, moved this > scenerio by some amount along a line from purely hypothetical to > something just short of possible. > > I understand the negative reactions to the announcement, but I think we > should see the very obvious exception at the bottom, a GTP remix, as a > sign that they are trying to navigate this issue with some sensitivity > and that Dave has not forgotten the contributions the community has made > back to Papyrus, particularly in regards to GPL. > > -- Just my thoughts, YMMV

<shrug> Could be, but I seriously doubt he, or anyone else in an official capacity, cares one bit about gpl mods, in terms of "contribution back to Papyrus" line of thinking. How are they contributions, etc ?

Oh lord, I didn't expect to find that even here folks would put personal pride ahead of professional sense. When a post turns up that actually contains a valid point about First perhaps some valid answers will follow. Posts like this indicate to me that not very many people have any agenda exept thier own in mind.

Bravo.... Excellent post. Bill Bollinger www.gsxn.com "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:mO5Wd.28682$[email hidden]: > >> So fairly unimpressed with First Racing's start so far... >> >> Tony >> > > Agreed, I have been a Papyrus/Kaemmer supporter for it seems like a > decade. I am, however, totally deflated by this current stand. > > They are protecting outdated code. Surely they can't believe a mod will > attract attention if it only LOOKS like a gtp car? Sure it drives like a > Nascar Tank, but trust us...it LOOKS like a Porche 962. > > Several points jump out at me. ISI is making at least some cash selling > the tools they use to create thier sims to modders. Not all groups and > not > all mods, but some folks have paid cash. Not to license the cars, logos, > tracks, or whatever, but the tools to create new stuff that ISI doesn't > have the time or resources to address themselves. > > Simbin and GTR would NOT exist today if the original FIA V3 2k1 mod > "looked" like a Viper or a Ferrari 550 but drove like an F1 rocket. RSDG > would not be creating new mods based on sportscars if they drove like F1 > cars. RSR's brilliant ETCC touring car mod would be a COMPLETE FREEAKING > DISASTER if it drove like an dang EFF One car. > > Yet that is the constraint First is demanding. Feel free to mess with > the shapes, sounds, graphics...but don't you dare make the cars lighter, > or > heavier, or lower, or or or.... > > Finally the exe that FIRST is so jealously protecting has been hacked for > a long time now. There isn't anything in there that SOMEBODY hasn't > already pried apart and poked and prodded and massaged. This defense of > secrets that are not secrets is obsured. > > and one more finally... > > To use the FIRST auto analogy. Suppose BMW makes an M3, but somebody > finds a way to build a custom part that IMPROVES the M3. Does BMW scream > bloody murder? Do they sic lawyers on a guy whose new pipe or chip > increases the performance of the M3? No, they say thanks for creating > something that increases sales of my product and improves the value of > said > product to those who have already purchased it. > > > I was lucky enough to get the GTP v1.0 release. I am tempted to flood > the binaries newsgroups....tempted... I have known folks in the company > via the net for years. Sites like theuspits have worked hand in hand with > that team, fine way to keep in touch Dave.. > > dave henrie

Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and for this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them. It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse. -Larry "Bob V" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the > post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explains > the > difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last > line of his post regarding GTP.

Larry wrote: > Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and > for this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them. > > It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse. > > -Larry When Lawyers get involved its **NEVER** too late ;) -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

They are not talking about mod add-ons, they are talking about modifying the underlying code of the engine by changing the EXE. You can still make tracks, cars, etc. They just don't want the code which they own being modded and redistributed. No any different than modding say Windows so it doesn't need activation then posting it on the net. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:O0mWd.47716$7z6.8565@lakeread04...

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> Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and > for this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them. > > It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse. > > -Larry > > "Bob V" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the >> post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explains >> the >> difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last >> line of his post regarding GTP. > >

On 5 Mar 2005 05:32:54 -0800, "MrMox" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Oh lord, I didn't expect to find that even here folks would put >personal pride ahead of professional sense. > >When a post turns up that actually contains a valid point about First >perhaps some valid answers will follow. Posts like this indicate to me >that not very many people have any agenda exept thier own in mind. My take is, from FIRST's perspective, why worry about competition from people modding this older game? I mean there are a lot of constraints in NR2003's code which prevent such (hypothetical) features like dynamic weather & day/night, complete support for enduro racing, more than 4/5 models at once, etc. etc. I still think NR is the best sim out there at this moment, but it IS starting to get a bit long in the tooth. But from what I understand that is at best a secondary issue for them (if it is an issue at all): it's all about the legalities surrounding the copyright. One thing I am sure about tho: this is a major public relations fiasco for them (despite everything else that has been debated): they certainly could have handled it MUCH better. John DiFool

Larry wrote: >> Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and >> for this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them. >> >> It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse. >> >> -Larry When Lawyers get involved its **NEVER** too late ;) ---------------------------- Then we agree, lawyers shove shit. :-) -- Richard "ZZ" Busch http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif Member: Screamers Racing League oAo AoA MARA GTR GT Rank +36.233 NGT Rank +41.093 GT Rank Monster +1214.979 GPL Rank + 14.768 MoGPL Rank + 308.654 N2003 Rank -18.8060 ---------------- Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward ----------------- ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Schooner" wrote: > They are not talking about mod add-ons, they are talking about modifyingthe > underlying code of the engine by changing the EXE. You can still make > tracks, cars, etc. They just don't want the code which they own being > modded and redistributed. No any different than modding say Windows so it > doesn't need activation then posting it on the net. The difference is providing enhancements which require the original software rather than providing a means of piracy. I bought NR2003 specifically *not* to run stock cars. NR2003 wasn't bundled free with any mod.

"MrMox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Oh lord, I didn't expect to find that even here folks would put > personal pride ahead of professional sense. > > When a post turns up that actually contains a valid point about First > perhaps some valid answers will follow. Posts like this indicate to me > that not very many people have any agenda exept thier own in mind. <laughter> You go to usenet, and you're surprised by what you find ? >

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9M6Wd.28711$[email hidden]...

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> http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/ > > Would Grand Prix Legends still enjoy success today and the loss of Papy be > mourned by non Nascar fans without the mods? Nothing graphically in that > image is produced by Papy, yet the image looks as good as pretty much any > other modern sim. > > In my view this allows First Racing to be taken seriously, otherwise

Kaemmer > would be remembered by those that played GPL in the late 90s and little > known to the newcomers. It smacks of a lack of confidence in their newstuff > and seems a PR gaff to me. imo one of the reasons gpl lasted so long was (for the first four years or so) /because/ it was so hard to alter the physics, it made league & pick-up races much more enjoyable in the longer term because you knew the other guy in a Lotus or whatever really did have the same car as you so if they beat you it was because they were a better driver. I don't see that the modding situation has changed, 'Papy' sims can't be modded (used to be because people didn't know how, now it's a legal issue but the effect is the same) and are aimed at people who want guaranteed fair online racing. 'EA' sims can be modded & it is encouraged, and are aimed at people who want variety and are not so concerned about online racing or leagues. There's a hell of a grey area & my description lays it out in a very black-or-white way but as long as the original title simulates something that interests me I'd be all for making it as hard to alter the physics as possible. If the original title doesn't interest me but a mod for that title does, I'll buy it for the variety, but not for a long-term commitment. There is room in the community for both types of sim, I think Dave K & Co are just targeting a different, but overlapping audience to EA. Malc.

"Malc" wrote: > There's a hell of a grey area & my description lays it out in a very > black-or-white way but as long as the original title simulates something > that interests me I'd be all for making it as hard to alter the physics as > possible. If the original title doesn't interest me but a mod for thattitle > does, I'll buy it for the variety, but not for a long-term commitment. In my view the mods that are now changing the physics have only come about because of the lack of releases of the Papy engined sims. Once the products start coming I believe the problem will go away. The modders will be playing catch up and will there be the need/desire to mod anyway? Which is why I belive FIRST to be a bit heavy handed in their approach, but it is no bigger a deal than that.

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VsrWd.29290$[email hidden]... > In my view the mods that are now changing the physics have only come about > because of the lack of releases of the Papy engined sims. Once theproducts > start coming I believe the problem will go away. The modders will beplaying > catch up and will there be the need/desire to mod anyway? > > Which is why I belive FIRST to be a bit heavy handed in their approach,but > it is no bigger a deal than that. I agree completely, and I look forward to the return of that era.

"ZZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4228fbd6$[email hidden]...

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> I was lucky enough to get the GTP v1.0 release. I am tempted to flood > the binaries newsgroups....tempted... I have known folks in the company > via the net for years. Sites like theuspits have worked hand in hand with > that team, fine way to keep in touch Dave.. > > dave henrie > > ---------------------------- > There's always BitTorrent for mods. No one will know where or who it came > from. > > I think they'll just force modders underground. > > > -- > Richard "ZZ" Busch > > http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif > > Member: > Screamers Racing League > oAo > AoA > MARA GTR > GT Rank +36.233 > NGT Rank +41.093 > GT Rank Monster +1214.979 > GPL Rank + 14.768 > MoGPL Rank + 308.654 > N2003 Rank -18.8060 > ---------------- > Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward > ----------------- > > > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet > News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ > Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =----

I agree with zz...one for the bad taste and two it will imo force modders underground. DC

'EA' sims can be modded & it is encouraged, and are aimed at people who want variety and are not so concerned about online racing or leagues. -------------------------------------- The reason online racers don't care about EA racing sims online, is because they stink for racing online. -- Richard "ZZ" Busch http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif Member: Screamers Racing League oAo AoA MARA GTR GT Rank +36.233 NGT Rank +41.093 GT Rank Monster +1214.979 GPL Rank + 14.768 MoGPL Rank + 308.654 N2003 Rank -18.8060 ---------------- Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward -----------------

"ZZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:422a6aff$[email hidden]... > The reason online racers don't care about EA racing sims online, is > because they stink for racing online. It wouldn't make much difference if they were great online, if you can't be sure your opponents are using the same set of physics there just isn't as much interest in setting up leagues & a big long-term following. It takes stability to get a big community following, but not everyone wants that, many just want variety. EA caters for the people who want lots of different mods, First can cater for the more 'specialist interest' drivers, as long as they choose genres that are popular enough to generate money. How easy it is to mod a sim & how easy it is to cheat are the same thing, and preventing cheating is an important part of online racing, and online racing is important to the longevity of a sim's community. Malc.

"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:422a77cd$0$562$[email hidden]... > "ZZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:422a6aff$[email hidden]... > > > The reason online racers don't care about EA racing sims online, is > > because they stink for racing online. > > It wouldn't make much difference if they were great online, if you can'tbe > sure your opponents are using the same set of physics there just isn't as > much interest in setting up leagues & a big long-term following. It takes > stability to get a big community following, but not everyone wants that, > many just want variety. EA caters for the people who want lots ofdifferent > mods, First can cater for the more 'specialist interest' drivers, as longas

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> they choose genres that are popular enough to generate money. > > How easy it is to mod a sim & how easy it is to cheat are the same thing, > and preventing cheating is an important part of online racing, and online > racing is important to the longevity of a sim's community. > > Malc.

03 or NSR, doesn't really matter; there is no sure-fire way to be sure your opponents are using the same set of physics, etc. Cheating has taken place in 03 since it was released, with the latest *public* notice of it at OLR, a few months back. Some sims may be easier to do this with, but none are immune. > >

>Would Grand Prix Legends still enjoy success today and the loss ofPapy be >mourned by non Nascar fans without the mods? I guess it depends on how you measure success. Papy made $49.95 off of me when they released GPL, they would have made that with or without the subsiquent mods. The mods have been great and have kept me playing but they did not add $1 to Papy's bottom line or provide enough encouragement for them to produce a GPL 2. It's entirely possible that the mods *discouraged* them from producing an update as the mods could have stolen their thunder. At least half the people in my GPL leagues discovered the game after GPL dissappeared from the shelves, if they have an original copy of the CD it came from ebay or some discount net retailer for peanuts, again no success for the company. NR2003 was targetted primarily at the nascar crowd and as such the road racing mods were probably incidental to sales. Yes they made another $49.95 off of me and others but apparently not enough to keep them in the market when they lost the Nascar licence. Personally I bought NR as a thank you to them for all my GPL enjoyment. <$100 for 8 years of entertainment (times a few thousand sim racers) is great value for money but would not put your kids thru college. First is stuck between a rock and a hard place, in order to make their code worth what they paid for it (and put food on the table) they have to keep grips on it's use. But now they've got to produce something that is significantly better then what we can get for free, AND convince us to keep paying periodicaly. Bottom line it is their code, they can take what ever action they see fit. Personnally I think going after the modders is an idle threat, if the modder is in a different country and it's posted by a web site in a 3rd country the costs involved in finding the phyicial person who did the codding and convincing a judge that something's been violated would likely be pretty high.

Tony Rickard wrote:

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> "John Simmons" wrote: > > >>They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is >>that so hard to understand? >> >>They'r merely clarifying their position. > > > That is clear. Although it does gives us a (hopefully misleading) message > that the modders can compete with what First Racing are planning to launch. > I was hoping for more innovation than a tweaked NR2003. > > In my view First Racing need to establish themselves as the leaders in sim > racing and then aim to stay there through quality product releases, rather > than rely on stopping others use their old stuff. > >

Sigh, I sure hope it won't be Nascar Racing 2/Nascar 99/Nascar 3 all over again... It sounds more like an evolution than a revolution. P.S.

"John DiFool" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On 5 Mar 2005 05:32:54 -0800, "MrMox" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Oh lord, I didn't expect to find that even here folks would put >>personal pride ahead of professional sense. >> >>When a post turns up that actually contains a valid point about First >>perhaps some valid answers will follow. Posts like this indicate to me >>that not very many people have any agenda exept thier own in mind. > > My take is, from FIRST's perspective, why worry about competition > from people modding this older game? I mean there are a lot of > constraints in NR2003's code which prevent such (hypothetical) > features like dynamic weather & day/night, complete support for > enduro racing, more than 4/5 models at once, etc. etc. I still think > NR is the best sim out there at this moment, but it IS starting to get > a bit long in the tooth. >

My thoughts exactly. Are they saying that what they'll be offering up soon will be no big change from NR2003???? If so, then they do have a lot to be concerned about! Just implementing weather and pissing off the temperature discrepancy in the front tyres would kill any mods for NR2003 instantly. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Bob V" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the > post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explains > the > difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last > line of his post regarding GTP. > >

Yes, this is fair enough. I think what a lot of people missed with the release of the GTP mod was that no disc was required at all if you already had a copy of NR2003 and you could even use the public VROC lobby for pickup racing. I have no problem with a company insisting any mod to their original game require the end user to have a legit copy of said original game.

"mcewena" wrote:

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> >Would Grand Prix Legends still enjoy success today and the loss of > Papy be > >mourned by non Nascar fans without the mods? > > I guess it depends on how you measure success. Papy made $49.95 off > of me when they released GPL, they would have made that with or without > the subsiquent mods. The mods have been great and have kept me playing > but they did not add $1 to Papy's bottom line or provide enough > encouragement for them to produce a GPL 2. It's entirely possible > that the mods *discouraged* them from producing an update as the mods > could have stolen their thunder.

The quote was from the original article by Steve Parsons. My point was the mods arguably kept Papy products in the limelight for the non Nascar fans which may go some way to helping First Racing to be perceived as a credible rather than yesteryear outfit when they announce their intention to create "a sanctioning body to launch a truly global online sport" I am as unconvinced though it will really effect their bottom line with or without the modders then or now, which is why I think it has not been handled well. I am sure it is all a storm in a teacup and we are all probably fickle enough to buy into FIRST if they produce the goods regardless of the tantrums on both sides. Cheers Tony

I am suprized all the time. I walk with a permanently suprized look. In fact if suprize were to be available with the prescribed wool of applicable posts actually proffered I could easily retire already in a cosy Florida pad with a flourishing business in woolly eyeless balaclavas for the consciously inept. :P <g> JP wrote: > <laughter> > > You go to usenet, and you're surprised by what you find ?