Heat: Why All the Bad Press?

I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the best Nascar simulator yet on the market. Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing the bashing. All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like are-- 1. Unnatural flipping 2. Issue dealing with pull 3. Damage model Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming from. Alanb

Alan Bernardo wrote: > ...Everyone who praised NH is now playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing > the bashing. Arguments that use terms like "everyone" or "always"/"never" are usually without merit. I think this "Papy loyalists" thing is silly ... unless your talking about Sierra stockholders (hmmm... is Sierra a publicly-traded stock? Dunno.)

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> All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. > The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like > are-- > > 1. Unnatural flipping > 2. Issue dealing with pull > 3. Damage model > > Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming > from. > > Alanb

Well, from where I'm coming from, you left out the MAIN main "feature" that generated complaints: the spurious and idiosyncratic cautions. I haven't played the game, but from what I've read, you have to commit mass vehicular homicide to get a yellow thrown, while -- as we all know very well from the TeeWee -- most any NASCAR official will throw a yellow, especially with maybe 20 to go, if a frog farts on the far side of the track. Call me cwazy, but the caution thing, combined with the goofy flipping which may result in "severe" damage which has no discernible effect on your car's performance just somehow doesn't seem outstandingly realistic to me. Am I wrong? Bart Brown

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>These are fair critics and have to be solved in a patch. I just read >some posts with 'it sucks because it has no tobacco adverts', or 'it >sucks because the wheel pulls to the right on a straight', without >stating how fantastic NH is in many other areas (the physics model is >fantastic). I just expected lots of positive reactions now that such a >beauty has been released. It has it's flaws, but which game didn't >need any patches? RC2000 has it's 6th patch now, GP3 has a patch >coming up (and needs hundreds of user-created patches), the patch for >N3 improved it quite a lot, etc, etc. >We now have a game with a fantastic basic engine, which should lead to >the best Nascar sim out there with some patches. > >Andre

I have made notes of the names of the people who criticize virtually every game that debuted over the last year, from RC2000,SCGT,GP3,Nascar Heat, among others, and it seems that with a few exceptions, it is the same group of 10 or so people that don't like anything new. They rarely mention the good points of a game along with the negatives, and they seem predisposed to disliking any new games. They sometimes characterize a new game as "crap" when a games shortcomings may make it "mediocre", but certainly not an awful game just because it is not excellent. Most games are not either "crap" or "great". I look for the names of posters who ,for example,may love Nascar heat and feel uninspired by GP3 or some other game, as people with objective opinions, which I may not agree with, but at least their opinions are not always so predictible and prejudiced by their loyalty to a certain game or publisher. That helps me in making good buying decisions, to read those objective posters evaluations of games.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes: >You forget one thing. Hasbro is the publisher and they have a history >of not supporting their products after market. Hopefully they will >prove me wrong. >-- >Nos Do most publishers have that same methodology(lack of support)? Just curious. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <PgIp5.15163$[email hidden]>, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Yatzee! > >Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Indeed. >> >> rrevved wrote: >> > Bingo!

Uno! -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]>, "RKirby" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > >Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been something >special if the development process had only gone in a slightly different >direction. > >BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you need to >know!!

So? Tony Rickard's 10 year-old loves GPL... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>>3. Damage model > >>Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming >>from. > >Yep, main thing that should be fixed in the patch. > >Like you I'm still amazed, the best car sim since GPL came out and >many people trash it for nothing. Oh well. > >Andre

I agree. I hope and expect that the damage model will be improved in a patch, but I cannot remember ever seeing a very realistic damage model in any sim , ever. Viper racing has a decent one, but even it falls far short of reality. Most Software producers seem very reluctant to create huge deformations , much less flaming explosions and scattered pieces in their sims. Sometimes I have heard that the licensing agreements prohibit such realistic damage modeling.

Nope....hit it dead on!! Key word here is "game". As a game, it's not too bad. But as a serious NASCAR racing sim they really missed the mark. Too bad......Papyrus really needs some serious competion. "Barton Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, from where I'm coming from, you left out the MAIN main "feature" > that generated complaints: the spurious and idiosyncratic cautions. I > haven't played the game, but from what I've read, you have to commit > mass vehicular homicide to get a yellow thrown, while -- as we all know > very well from the TeeWee -- most any NASCAR official will throw a > yellow, especially with maybe 20 to go, if a frog farts on the far side > of the track. Call me cwazy, but the caution thing, combined with the > goofy flipping which may result in "severe" damage which has no > discernible effect on your car's performance just somehow doesn't seem > outstandingly realistic to me. > > Am I wrong? > > Bart Brown

It seems they carefully left out of the demo the options that caused problems. -- Kevin Anderson [email hidden] --------------------------------------------------- "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the > best Nascar simulator yet on the market. > > Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. > > Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now > playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing > the bashing. > > All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. > The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like > are-- > > 1. Unnatural flipping > 2. Issue dealing with pull > 3. Damage model > > Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming > from. > > Alanb

BINGO!!! Sal V. "Kevin Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NwEp5.28$[email hidden]...

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> It seems they carefully left out of the demo the options that caused > problems. > > -- > Kevin Anderson > [email hidden] > --------------------------------------------------- > > > "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the > > best Nascar simulator yet on the market. > > > > Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. > > > > Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now > > playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing > > the bashing. > > > > All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. > > The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like > > are-- > > > > 1. Unnatural flipping > > 2. Issue dealing with pull > > 3. Damage model > > > > Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming > > from. > > > > Alanb > >

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:01:20 GMT, Alan Bernardo <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the >best Nascar simulator yet on the market. It surprises me too, I am very enthousiastic with the demo, I didn't expect it to be this good. The physics feel fantastic, graphics are great, and all the little extras like Beat the Heat and the animated pitcrew make this an outstanding game imo. >Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. >Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now >playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing >the bashing. Most of the bad reviews have stupid arguments, no arguments at all or make a big deal of some minor details. No tobacco adverts on the cars? Who cares! >All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. >The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like >are-- > >1. Unnatural flippingThis is true. Today I spinned and watched the replay, the back of the car was lifted into the air while spinning. It looked completely unnatural. But to me this is not important. The driving itself is fantastic, and if the car behaves a little bit unnaturally after a spin or crash, I don't give a damn. Ofcourse it would be nicer if the car would behave perfectly natural, but is it a reason to trash NH? No. >2. Issue dealing with pullPosts with texts like 'NH sucks because the wheel pulls to the right' can be skipped immediately. Let them have fun with N3 where you can drive with the hands off the wheel. >3. Damage model >Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming >from. Yep, main thing that should be fixed in the patch. Like you I'm still amazed, the best car sim since GPL came out and many people trash it for nothing. Oh well. Andre >Alanb

> Key word here is "game". As a game, it's not too bad. But as a serious > NASCAR racing sim they really missed the mark. > > Too bad......Papyrus really needs some serious competion. This is the best Nascar Racing Sim to date N3 can't even touch it . Its only equal is GPL. Its all about the driving model. N3 will soon be deleted from my HD.

The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are prob the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in GPL Flame away On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:19:07 -0600, "JJ Thomas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> Key word here is "game". As a game, it's not too bad. But as a serious >> NASCAR racing sim they really missed the mark. >> >> Too bad......Papyrus really needs some serious competion. > > >This is the best Nascar Racing Sim to date N3 can't even touch it . Its only >equal >is GPL. Its all about the driving model. N3 will soon be deleted from my >HD. > >

"Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are prob > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in GPL > > Flame away > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been something special if the development process had only gone in a slightly different direction. BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you need to know!!

well there IS a difference between how realistic the flips are when you start them, and how realistic the circumstances are that cause flips. There has only been one complaint about NH not correctly rolling when it flips, but there have been many about excessive flips. Marc Davey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are prob > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in GPL > > Flame away > > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:19:07 -0600, "JJ Thomas" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >> Key word here is "game". As a game, it's not too bad. But as a serious > >> NASCAR racing sim they really missed the mark. > >> > >> Too bad......Papyrus really needs some serious competion. > > > > > >This is the best Nascar Racing Sim to date N3 can't even touch it . Its

only > >equal > >is GPL. Its all about the driving model. N3 will soon be deleted frommy > >HD. > > > > >

that's not quite fair Andre There has been like 1 thread each for the stupid minor problems (at least in your and my opinion, which doesn't do much for the people who think they aren't stupid.) most of the bad press has been about non-existent damage modeling, many caution bugs, detachment from simulation due to auto pilot modes in certain situations. Also the multiplayer has been slightly criticized in a reasonable way. Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:01:20 GMT, Alan Bernardo > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the > >best Nascar simulator yet on the market. > > It surprises me too, I am very enthousiastic with the demo, I didn't > expect it to be this good. The physics feel fantastic, graphics are > great, and all the little extras like Beat the Heat and the animated > pitcrew make this an outstanding game imo. > > >Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. > >Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now > >playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing > >the bashing. > > Most of the bad reviews have stupid arguments, no arguments at all or > make a big deal of some minor details. No tobacco adverts on the cars? > Who cares! > > >All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. > >The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like > >are-- > > > >1. Unnatural flipping > This is true. Today I spinned and watched the replay, the back of the > car was lifted into the air while spinning. It looked completely > unnatural. But to me this is not important. The driving itself is > fantastic, and if the car behaves a little bit unnaturally after a > spin or crash, I don't give a damn. Ofcourse it would be nicer if the > car would behave perfectly natural, but is it a reason to trash NH? > No. > > >2. Issue dealing with pull > Posts with texts like 'NH sucks because the wheel pulls to the right' > can be skipped immediately. Let them have fun with N3 where you can > drive with the hands off the wheel. > > >3. Damage model > > >Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming > >from. > > Yep, main thing that should be fixed in the patch. > > Like you I'm still amazed, the best car sim since GPL came out and > many people trash it for nothing. Oh well. > > Andre > > >Alanb >

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:55:17 GMT, Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Alan Bernardo wrote: >> ...Everyone who praised NH is now playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing >> the bashing. > >Arguments that use terms like "everyone" or "always"/"never" are usually >without merit. I think this "Papy loyalists" thing is silly ... unless >your talking about Sierra stockholders (hmmm... is Sierra a >publicly-traded stock? Dunno.) >

Okay, mostly everyone. That fixes that. By Papy loyalists I mean those who are just very loyal to the Papyrus series and will accept nothing else. Still, they have a right to say what they want. In part, if you're a true hardcore sim racer, I can see where they're coming from. I was just a little surprised why it didn't come out during the demo, unless some were waiting to see if some things were improved.

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> >Well, from where I'm coming from, you left out the MAIN main "feature" >that generated complaints: the spurious and idiosyncratic cautions. I >haven't played the game, but from what I've read, you have to commit >mass vehicular homicide to get a yellow thrown, while -- as we all know >very well from the TeeWee -- most any NASCAR official will throw a >yellow, especially with maybe 20 to go, if a frog farts on the far side >of the track. Call me cwazy, but the caution thing, combined with the >goofy flipping which may result in "severe" damage which has no >discernible effect on your car's performance just somehow doesn't seem >outstandingly realistic to me. > >Am I wrong? > >Bart Brown

I would agree. The problem with the yellow certainly needs to be fixed, and possibly the flipping is a bit too excessive. I think Ed and company are aware of things that need to be done with the release of the patch. But it was just this sudden surge of what seemed like utter disappointment with Heat that surprised me, when the demo was so gloriously praised. It's as if someone needed to protect something, and in doing so lashed out at the game. Mostly everyone's got to agree that with some tweaking (workable in a patch, I think) Heat could be much better than it is. Alanb

A wise man knows his limitations... rrevved wrote: > > No, just wordy.

Indeed. rrevved wrote: > Bingo!

Yatzee! Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Indeed. > > rrevved wrote: > > Bingo!

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:19:07 -0600, "JJ Thomas" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >This is the best Nascar Racing Sim to date N3 can't even touch it . Its only >equal >is GPL. Its all about the driving model. N3 will soon be deleted from my >HD. > > It's not *all* about the driving model. The only area that NH beats N3 is in the physics enine. I want a racing sim not just a driving sim. -- Nos

Bingo! -- Todd S. "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:55:17 GMT, Barton Brown <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Alan Bernardo wrote: > >> ...Everyone who praised NH is now playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing > >> the bashing. > > > >Arguments that use terms like "everyone" or "always"/"never" are usually > >without merit. I think this "Papy loyalists" thing is silly ... unless > >your talking about Sierra stockholders (hmmm... is Sierra a > >publicly-traded stock? Dunno.) > > > Okay, mostly everyone. That fixes that. By Papy loyalists I mean > those who are just very loyal to the Papyrus series and will accept > nothing else. Still, they have a right to say what they want. In > part, if you're a true hardcore sim racer, I can see where they're > coming from. I was just a little surprised why it didn't come out > during the demo, unless some were waiting to see if some things were > improved. > > > > >Well, from where I'm coming from, you left out the MAIN main "feature" > >that generated complaints: the spurious and idiosyncratic cautions. I > >haven't played the game, but from what I've read, you have to commit > >mass vehicular homicide to get a yellow thrown, while -- as we all know > >very well from the TeeWee -- most any NASCAR official will throw a > >yellow, especially with maybe 20 to go, if a frog farts on the far side > >of the track. Call me cwazy, but the caution thing, combined with the > >goofy flipping which may result in "severe" damage which has no > >discernible effect on your car's performance just somehow doesn't seem > >outstandingly realistic to me. > > > >Am I wrong? > > > >Bart Brown > > I would agree. The problem with the yellow certainly needs to be > fixed, and possibly the flipping is a bit too excessive. I think Ed > and company are aware of things that need to be done with the release > of the patch. > > But it was just this sudden surge of what seemed like utter > disappointment with Heat that surprised me, when the demo was so > gloriously praised. It's as if someone needed to protect something, > and in doing so lashed out at the game. > > Mostly everyone's got to agree that with some tweaking (workable in a > patch, I think) Heat could be much better than it is. > > Alanb

What bad press? I think your overstating some minor complaints over the best Nascar Sim to date . All I've heard is mostly positive comments its a great sim .It is without a doubt the best their is for Nascar now, When N4 comes out six months to a year from now. Hopefully this will be a wakeup call for Papyrus, that they cannot sit around and milk the Nascar thing without moving forward in development. But do not thing for a moment that MGI will play dead for Papy to get their Sh*t together they are more then likely gathering data now for bug fixes,future improvements etc.The bottom line is the consumer is the winner here. Competition is good for development.

You've said the same thing twice and both times failed to support your position with any useful facts. My 3 1/2 year old likes it too, that doesn't make it an arcade game. Hell he also likes GPL, based on your logic I guess GPL is arcade too ;-). If you think it's not a sim then tell me why. Unsupported conclusory statements are as useless as tits on a bull. (Hey, I finally used that corny line). I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with the well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I spin the tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the brakes. The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these forces (hey 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can feel the state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The car setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of the race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? -- Joe Marques Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]... > > "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are prob > > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in GPL > > > > Flame away > > > > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > > Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been something > special if the development process had only gone in a slightly different > direction. > > BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you need to > know!! > >

How about to other key areas: AI and graphics. Unless you are impressed with N3's inability to drive around a friggin' crash/spin? I know I just love it when the entire field stops and is unable to use the other 80% of the track that is unobstructed due to some cosmic magnetic field ;-). Oh and how about intense racing? I've never spent so many laps racing door-to-door or in the pack. This AI races harder and is more realistic than N3 (better blocking and picking up the aggression later in the race). I think it's a better racing experience overall. AS for graphics, they are easily better in NH so no need to be long winded here ;-). NH has it's faults but it's still a significant improvement over N3. -- Joe Marques Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:19:07 -0600, "JJ Thomas" <[email hidden]> thus > spoke: > > > >This is the best Nascar Racing Sim to date N3 can't even touch it . Its only > >equal > >is GPL. Its all about the driving model. N3 will soon be deleted from my > >HD. > > > > > > It's not *all* about the driving model. The only area that NH beats N3 > is in the physics enine. I want a racing sim not just a driving sim. > -- > Nos

Triple Yatzee! -- Joe Marques Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PgIp5.15163$[email hidden]... > Yatzee! > > Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Indeed. > > > > rrevved wrote: > > > Bingo! > >

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 00:01:43 -0600, "JJ Thomas" <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>What bad press? I think your overstating some minor complaints over the >best Nascar Sim to date . All I've heard is mostly positive comments its a >great sim .It is without a doubt the best their is for Nascar now, When >N4 comes out six months to a year from now. Hopefully this >will be a wakeup call for Papyrus, that they cannot sit around and milk >the Nascar thing without moving forward in development. But do not >thing for a moment that MGI will play dead for Papy to get their Sh*t >together they are more then likely gathering data now for bug fixes,future >improvements etc.The bottom line is the consumer is the winner here. >Competition is good for development.

You forget one thing. Hasbro is the publisher and they have a history of not supporting their products after market. Hopefully they will prove me wrong. -- Nos

Maybe some guys at MGI will make unsupported pathes on their own time. Kind of like the patches for GPL. ;) > You forget one thing. Hasbro is the publisher and they have a history > of not supporting their products after market. Hopefully they will > prove me wrong. > -- > Nos

[email hidden] wrote:

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> > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:19:07 -0600, "JJ Thomas" ?[email hidden]? thus > spoke: > > ?This is the best Nascar Racing Sim to date N3 can't even touch it . Its only > ?equal > ?is GPL. Its all about the driving model. N3 will soon be deleted from my > ?HD. > ? > ? > > It's not *all* about the driving model. The only area that NH beats N3 > is in the physics enine. I want a racing sim not just a driving sim.

Funny, with me it's just the opposite, I'd love for someone to make a driving sim, take the GPL or NH engine and let me take a Super7 for a spin around some lovely twisting sections of road, or a 911 RSL, or a Ferrari 288 GTO, or....... Sometimes I just want to drive, much like NFS PU, but with more realism This os course has nothing to do with NHeat really....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

rrevved wrote:

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> > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:55:17 GMT, Barton Brown ?[email hidden]? wrote: > > ? > ?Well, from where I'm coming from, you left out the MAIN main "feature" > ?that generated complaints: the spurious and idiosyncratic cautions. I > ?haven't played the game, but from what I've read, you have to commit > ?mass vehicular homicide to get a yellow thrown, while -- as we all know > ?very well from the TeeWee -- most any NASCAR official will throw a > ?yellow, especially with maybe 20 to go, if a frog farts on the far side > ?of the track. Call me cwazy, but the caution thing, combined with the > ?goofy flipping which may result in "severe" damage which has no > ?discernible effect on your car's performance just somehow doesn't seem > ?outstandingly realistic to me. > ? > ?Am I wrong? > > No, just wordy.

Or worthy even :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 06:42:42 GMT, "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> thus spoke: >NH has it's faults but it's still a significant improvement over N3. OK, I concede should have mentioned the AI. But, the graphics are a subjective issue. Still, it's not *all* about the driving model, which is what you initially said. N3 has a better damge model and far more realistic flags. I'm not saying N3 is perfect in the least, but niether is NH. -- Nos

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:42:46 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>> It's not *all* about the driving model. The only area that NH beats N3 >> is in the physics enine. I want a racing sim not just a driving sim. > >Funny, with me it's just the opposite, I'd love for someone to make a >driving sim, take the GPL or NH engine and let me take a Super7 for a >spin around some lovely twisting sections of road, or a 911 RSL, or a >Ferrari 288 GTO, or....... > >Sometimes I just want to drive, much like NFS PU, but with more realism > >This os course has nothing to do with NHeat really....:-)

Horses for courses... :-) -- Nos

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 07:33:51 GMT, Alan Orton <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Maybe some guys at MGI will make unsupported pathes on their own time. >Kind of like the patches for GPL. ;) Very possible. If it sells well then Habro might support it too. -- Nos

I agree with your post listing very "sim-like" features. One aspect that seemed a little strange was that I was racing at Darlington (not that the track probably matters) and B LaBonte was passing me on the inside of turn 1. I thought, "the hell he is!" so I came down on him. I kept steering left and what happened was that we both did an entire lap touching door to door until I finally lifted an he went on by. Is this really possible? I tried as hard as I could to run him off the road, but we simply went around the track like one 7500 pound, 1400 hp., 8 wheel mega-machine. -- Todd S. "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > You've said the same thing twice and both times failed to support your > position with any useful facts. My 3 1/2 year old likes it too, that > doesn't make it an arcade game. Hell he also likes GPL, based on your logic > I guess GPL is arcade too ;-). > > If you think it's not a sim then tell me why. Unsupported conclusory > statements are as useless as tits on a bull. (Hey, I finally used that > corny line). > > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with the > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I spin the > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the brakes. > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these forces (hey > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can feel the > state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The car > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of the > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > -- > Joe Marques > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]... > > > > "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are prob > > > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in GPL > > > > > > Flame away > > > > > > > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > > > > Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been something > > special if the development process had only gone in a slightly different > > direction. > > > > BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you need to > > know!! > > > > > >

"Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with the > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I spinthe > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the brakes. > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these forces(hey > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can feelthe

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> state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The car > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of the > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > -- > Joe Marques

Joe, These are all very valid observations. You've noted most of the things that MGI got right with NH. The physics are great! Beats N3 by a mile. The graphics could be great if I invested $300.00 in a new video card. Right now they hurt my eyes with my Voodoo 3, which works great with all of the other games that I have installed on my computer. NH is not worth investing another 300 bucks IMHO. But...there's still way too many things that they got wrong or missed on entirely (ex: multiplayer and damage modeling) for this "game" to be of any use to the hardcore sim racer in terms of online or league racing. Most, if not all have been covered in other posts so let's not repeat them here. Everything that in my opinion is wrong with NASCAR Heat can be fixed (actually, they should have been fixed before they took my money). Let's hope that MGI and Hasbro don't drop the ball now that their money is in the bank. Papyrus needs the competition. If racing the AI cars off-line is your thing , you'll probably like NH for the most part. If on-line racing against real living and thinking human drivers is important to you then you best keep your $40.00 in your pocket...you'll likely be very disappointed.

Go fish! Kai Fuller wrote: > > Yatzee!

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:33:03 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>that's not quite fair Andre There has been like 1 thread each for the stupid >minor problems (at least in your and my opinion, which doesn't do much for >the people who think they aren't stupid.) >most of the bad press has been about non-existent damage modeling, many >caution bugs, detachment from simulation due to auto pilot modes in certain >situations. Also the multiplayer has been slightly criticized in a >reasonable way.

These are fair critics and have to be solved in a patch. I just read some posts with 'it sucks because it has no tobacco adverts', or 'it sucks because the wheel pulls to the right on a straight', without stating how fantastic NH is in many other areas (the physics model is fantastic). I just expected lots of positive reactions now that such a beauty has been released. It has it's flaws, but which game didn't need any patches? RC2000 has it's 6th patch now, GP3 has a patch coming up (and needs hundreds of user-created patches), the patch for N3 improved it quite a lot, etc, etc. We now have a game with a fantastic basic engine, which should lead to the best Nascar sim out there with some patches. Andre

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> > >Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:01:20 GMT, Alan Bernardo >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the >> >best Nascar simulator yet on the market. >> >> It surprises me too, I am very enthousiastic with the demo, I didn't >> expect it to be this good. The physics feel fantastic, graphics are >> great, and all the little extras like Beat the Heat and the animated >> pitcrew make this an outstanding game imo. >> >> >Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. >> >Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now >> >playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing >> >the bashing. >> >> Most of the bad reviews have stupid arguments, no arguments at all or >> make a big deal of some minor details. No tobacco adverts on the cars? >> Who cares! >> >> >All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. >> >The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like >> >are-- >> > >> >1. Unnatural flipping >> This is true. Today I spinned and watched the replay, the back of the >> car was lifted into the air while spinning. It looked completely >> unnatural. But to me this is not important. The driving itself is >> fantastic, and if the car behaves a little bit unnaturally after a >> spin or crash, I don't give a damn. Ofcourse it would be nicer if the >> car would behave perfectly natural, but is it a reason to trash NH? >> No. >> >> >2. Issue dealing with pull >> Posts with texts like 'NH sucks because the wheel pulls to the right' >> can be skipped immediately. Let them have fun with N3 where you can >> drive with the hands off the wheel. >> >> >3. Damage model >> >> >Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming >> >from. >> >> Yep, main thing that should be fixed in the patch. >> >> Like you I'm still amazed, the best car sim since GPL came out and >> many people trash it for nothing. Oh well. >> >> Andre >> >> >Alanb >> >

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 06:43:14 GMT, "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote: >Triple Yatzee! Stop it, this is stupid :)) Andre

Barton Brown wrote: > > Go fish! > > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > Yatzee! Read 'em and weep. -- Chuck Kandler Windows--computing for the Unwashed Masses Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

I agree that the ability to rid side-by-side and touching is too forgiving. I think it's a fair compromise which allows unparalleled in the pack racing at the expense of some realism. I'd rather have this than wild spins at the slightest touch. I wonder if they could tweak it a bit in a patch. A little more danger when colliding would be nice. The cars are too much on rails in this instance. -- Joe Marques Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1AOp5.70910$[email hidden]... > I agree with your post listing very "sim-like" features. One aspect that > seemed a little strange was that I was racing at Darlington (not that the > track probably matters) and B LaBonte was passing me on the inside of turn > 1. I thought, "the hell he is!" so I came down on him. I kept steering left > and what happened was that we both did an entire lap touching door to door > until I finally lifted an he went on by. Is this really possible? I tried as > hard as I could to run him off the road, but we simply went around the track > like one 7500 pound, 1400 hp., 8 wheel mega-machine. > > -- > Todd S. > > > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > > You've said the same thing twice and both times failed to support your > > position with any useful facts. My 3 1/2 year old likes it too, that > > doesn't make it an arcade game. Hell he also likes GPL, based on your > logic > > I guess GPL is arcade too ;-). > > > > If you think it's not a sim then tell me why. Unsupported conclusory > > statements are as useless as tits on a bull. (Hey, I finally used that > > corny line). > > > > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with the > > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I spin > the > > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the brakes. > > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these forces > (hey > > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can feel > the > > state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The car > > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of the > > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > > > -- > > Joe Marques > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are prob > > > > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in GPL > > > > > > > > Flame away > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > > > > > > Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been something > > > special if the development process had only gone in a slightly different > > > direction. > > > > > > BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you need to > > > know!! > > > > > > > > > > > >

Fair enough. I agree that they missed in quite a few areas. My ultimate conclusion is that this is a great first effort. At some point they had to stop developing the game and actually deliver it. I'm sure with another 4 years it would be perfect ;-). The issue is when do you say enough and ship the damn thing. You certainly don't due a Falcon 4 and ship it with bugs. Shipping it with some weaknesses, however, is fine when overall the game is excellent. I'll take it as-is and play the hell out of it. For off-line racing it's the best I've ever played (the AI matches GPL and is actually BETTER at crunch time). My expectations are that over time via patches or next years version it will get better and better and be a solid addition to the Nascar franchise giving N4 a run for it's money. Although with Papy's experience in this area N4 could really be something special. I'm saving for the PIV 1.5 Ghz we'll need just to run it ;^). -- Joe Marques Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bpPp5.90454$[email hidden]... > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with the > > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I spin > the > > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the brakes. > > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these forces > (hey > > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can feel > the > > state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The car > > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of the > > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > > > -- > > Joe Marques > > > Joe, > > These are all very valid observations. You've noted most of the things that > MGI got right with NH. The physics are great! Beats N3 by a mile. > The graphics could be great if I invested $300.00 in a new video card. Right > now they hurt my eyes with my Voodoo 3, which works great with all of the > other games that I have installed on my computer. NH is not worth investing > another 300 bucks IMHO. > > But...there's still way too many things that they got wrong or missed on > entirely (ex: multiplayer and damage modeling) for this "game" to be of any > use to the hardcore sim racer in terms of online or league racing. Most, if > not all have been covered in other posts so let's not repeat them here. > > Everything that in my opinion is wrong with NASCAR Heat can be fixed > (actually, they should have been fixed before they took my money). Let's > hope that MGI and Hasbro don't drop the ball now that their money is in the > bank. Papyrus needs the competition. > > If racing the AI cars off-line is your thing , you'll probably like NH for > the most part. If on-line racing against real living and thinking human > drivers is important to you then you best keep your $40.00 in your > pocket...you'll likely be very disappointed. > >

Hey Nos, I'm just keeping you honest, NH is better in more than one area ;-). You're right NH isn't perfect. To me it's fun as hell to race and feels great. That's enough for now, although I'd be disappointed if it wasn't patched to fix the pathetic damage model. Aside from the actual damage effecting performance, what about the quick recovery of AI cars. I've seen AI cars spin, slide and slam the wall only to IMMEDIATELY straighten out and continue the race. They need to delay the recovery of AI cars. Include a concussion patch so the AI is too dizzy to continue quickly ;-). -- Joe Marques Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 06:42:42 GMT, "Joe Marques" > <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > > >NH has it's faults but it's still a significant improvement over N3. > > OK, I concede should have mentioned the AI. But, the graphics are a > subjective issue. Still, it's not *all* about the driving model, which > is what you initially said. N3 has a better damge model and far more > realistic flags. I'm not saying N3 is perfect in the least, but > niether is NH. > -- > Nos

Just curious, was this in hardcore mode? -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566 "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WWQp5.26589$[email hidden]... > I agree that the ability to rid side-by-side and touching is too forgiving. > I think it's a fair compromise which allows unparalleled in the pack racing > at the expense of some realism. I'd rather have this than wild spins at the > slightest touch. I wonder if they could tweak it a bit in a patch. A > little more danger when colliding would be nice. The cars are too much on > rails in this instance. > > -- > Joe Marques > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:1AOp5.70910$[email hidden]... > > I agree with your post listing very "sim-like" features. One aspect that > > seemed a little strange was that I was racing at Darlington (not that the > > track probably matters) and B LaBonte was passing me on the inside of turn > > 1. I thought, "the hell he is!" so I came down on him. I kept steering > left > > and what happened was that we both did an entire lap touching door to door > > until I finally lifted an he went on by. Is this really possible? I tried > as > > hard as I could to run him off the road, but we simply went around the > track > > like one 7500 pound, 1400 hp., 8 wheel mega-machine. > > > > -- > > Todd S. > > > > > > > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > > > You've said the same thing twice and both times failed to support your > > > position with any useful facts. My 3 1/2 year old likes it too, that > > > doesn't make it an arcade game. Hell he also likes GPL, based on your > > logic > > > I guess GPL is arcade too ;-). > > > > > > If you think it's not a sim then tell me why. Unsupported conclusory > > > statements are as useless as tits on a bull. (Hey, I finally used that > > > corny line). > > > > > > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with > the > > > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I spin > > the > > > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the > brakes. > > > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these forces > > (hey > > > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can feel > > the > > > state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The car > > > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > > > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of the > > > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > > > > > -- > > > Joe Marques > > > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > > "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are > prob > > > > > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in > GPL > > > > > > > > > > Flame away > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > > > > > > > > Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been something > > > > special if the development process had only gone in a slightly > different > > > > direction. > > > > > > > > BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you need > to > > > > know!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

You know Don, when I posted this I was sure I was in hardcore mode. However, my son was messing around with NH, so it is possible it was in Expert mode. Darn, I wish I knew for certain. -- Todd S "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MfRp5.5795$[email hidden]... > Just curious, was this in hardcore mode? > > -- > Don Burnette > Dburn in N3 and Legends > ICQ# 74084566 > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WWQp5.26589$[email hidden]... > > I agree that the ability to rid side-by-side and touching is too > forgiving. > > I think it's a fair compromise which allows unparalleled in the pack > racing > > at the expense of some realism. I'd rather have this than wild spins at > the > > slightest touch. I wonder if they could tweak it a bit in a patch. A > > little more danger when colliding would be nice. The cars are too much on > > rails in this instance. > > > > -- > > Joe Marques > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:1AOp5.70910$[email hidden]... > > > I agree with your post listing very "sim-like" features. One aspect that > > > seemed a little strange was that I was racing at Darlington (not that > the > > > track probably matters) and B LaBonte was passing me on the inside of > turn > > > 1. I thought, "the hell he is!" so I came down on him. I kept steering > > left > > > and what happened was that we both did an entire lap touching door to > door > > > until I finally lifted an he went on by. Is this really possible? I > tried > > as > > > hard as I could to run him off the road, but we simply went around the > > track > > > like one 7500 pound, 1400 hp., 8 wheel mega-machine. > > > > > > -- > > > Todd S. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > > > > You've said the same thing twice and both times failed to support your > > > > position with any useful facts. My 3 1/2 year old likes it too, that > > > > doesn't make it an arcade game. Hell he also likes GPL, based on your > > > logic > > > > I guess GPL is arcade too ;-). > > > > > > > > If you think it's not a sim then tell me why. Unsupported conclusory > > > > statements are as useless as tits on a bull. (Hey, I finally used > that > > > > corny line). > > > > > > > > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with > > the > > > > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I > spin > > > the > > > > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the > > brakes. > > > > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these > forces > > > (hey > > > > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can > feel > > > the > > > > state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The > car > > > > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > > > > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of > the > > > > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Joe Marques > > > > > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > > > "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are > > prob > > > > > > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in > > GPL > > > > > > > > > > > > Flame away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > > > > > > > > > > Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been > something > > > > > special if the development process had only gone in a slightly > > different > > > > > direction. > > > > > > > > > > BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you > need > > to > > > > > know!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Loosay2 wrote:

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> > I agree. I hope and expect that the damage model will be improved in a patch, > but I cannot remember ever seeing a very realistic damage model in any sim , > ever. > Viper racing has a decent one, but even it falls far short of reality. > Most Software producers seem very reluctant to create huge deformations , much > less flaming explosions and scattered pieces in their sims. Sometimes I have > heard that the licensing agreements prohibit such realistic damage modeling.

Some licensing agrreements prohibit ANY damage modelling whatsoever. Freeburn

Joe Marques wrote: > ... so the AI is too dizzy to continue quickly Speaking of which, did anyone see the Autoweek article on Terry Labonte's dizzy-spells problem, which caused him to sit out 2 races (after having had an unbroken start string from like 1978!)? Turned out he had some bizarre inner-ear problem with calcium deposits, and the cure (60-80% success rate) was to sit him in a chair and spin him around violently until the calcium fell out (so the story says...)! He felt immediately better, but to make sure he was all right before he got back in the car, he and his pilot flew to Richmond where they got all-day passes to King's Dominion and rode the most violent coasters in the joint repeatedly (the pilot finally gave up, but Labonte kept going). After a day of that with no more nausea, Labonte figured he was OK to drive... Life is a trip! BB

WSC looks like it will include "missing parts" in it's implimentation of damage, but it remains to be seen. Actually I don't play sims to "create" damage, but rather to avoid it. A sim that impliments real damage would probably attract a lot of people who play them just to create explosions etc.however these same people will be moving on to another game in a short time anyway. I am more concerned about the proximity detection during "on-line" racing. Tore "Loosay2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >>3. Damage model > > > >>Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming > >>from. > > > >Yep, main thing that should be fixed in the patch. > > > >Like you I'm still amazed, the best car sim since GPL came out and > >many people trash it for nothing. Oh well. > > > >Andre > > I agree. I hope and expect that the damage model will be improved in a

patch, > but I cannot remember ever seeing a very realistic damage model in any sim, > ever. > Viper racing has a decent one, but even it falls far short of reality. > Most Software producers seem very reluctant to create huge deformations ,much > less flaming explosions and scattered pieces in their sims. Sometimes Ihave > heard that the licensing agreements prohibit such realistic damagemodeling.

Loosay2 wrote: > I have made notes of the names of the people who criticize virtually every > game that debuted over the last year Damn! And I thought *I* didn't get out much! ;) > I look for the names of posters who ,for example,may love Nascar heat and feel > uninspired by GP3 or some other game, as people with objective opinions, which > I may not agree with, but at least their opinions are not always so predictible > and prejudiced by their loyalty to a certain game or publisher. That helps me > in making good buying decisions, to read those objective posters evaluations of > games. Which is the whole point of a forum like this, IMHO -- an informed consumer... And you're right: there are certain names I just skip or killfile, and others I read no matter what the topic, because they usually have something useful and intelligent to say. Hmmmm .... I wonder how many killfiles *my* name is in? Bart Brown

A good reason these mode choices should have been put in as menu choices. I guess their reasoning in not doing so was that the target "general" audience, the arcade gamer, would automatically select the hardest modes, and be unhappy with the difficulty of the sim. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566 "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sZRp5.71120$[email hidden]... > You know Don, when I posted this I was sure I was in hardcore mode. However, > my son was messing around with NH, so it is possible it was in Expert mode. > Darn, I wish I knew for certain. > > -- > Todd S > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MfRp5.5795$[email hidden]... > > Just curious, was this in hardcore mode? > > > > -- > > Don Burnette > > Dburn in N3 and Legends > > ICQ# 74084566 > > > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:WWQp5.26589$[email hidden]... > > > I agree that the ability to rid side-by-side and touching is too > > forgiving. > > > I think it's a fair compromise which allows unparalleled in the pack > > racing > > > at the expense of some realism. I'd rather have this than wild spins at > > the > > > slightest touch. I wonder if they could tweak it a bit in a patch. A > > > little more danger when colliding would be nice. The cars are too much > on > > > rails in this instance. > > > > > > -- > > > Joe Marques > > > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:1AOp5.70910$[email hidden]... > > > > I agree with your post listing very "sim-like" features. One aspect > that > > > > seemed a little strange was that I was racing at Darlington (not that > > the > > > > track probably matters) and B LaBonte was passing me on the inside of > > turn > > > > 1. I thought, "the hell he is!" so I came down on him. I kept steering > > > left > > > > and what happened was that we both did an entire lap touching door to > > door > > > > until I finally lifted an he went on by. Is this really possible? I > > tried > > > as > > > > hard as I could to run him off the road, but we simply went around the > > > track > > > > like one 7500 pound, 1400 hp., 8 wheel mega-machine. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Todd S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > > > > > You've said the same thing twice and both times failed to support > your > > > > > position with any useful facts. My 3 1/2 year old likes it too, > that > > > > > doesn't make it an arcade game. Hell he also likes GPL, based on > your > > > > logic > > > > > I guess GPL is arcade too ;-). > > > > > > > > > > If you think it's not a sim then tell me why. Unsupported > conclusory > > > > > statements are as useless as tits on a bull. (Hey, I finally used > > that > > > > > corny line). > > > > > > > > > > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting > with > > > the > > > > > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I > > spin > > > > the > > > > > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the > > > brakes. > > > > > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these > > forces > > > > (hey > > > > > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can > > feel > > > > the > > > > > state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The > > car > > > > > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > > > > > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of > > the > > > > > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Joe Marques > > > > > > > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > > > > "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining > are > > > prob > > > > > > > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips > in > > > GPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flame away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been > > something > > > > > > special if the development process had only gone in a slightly > > > different > > > > > > direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you > > need > > > to > > > > > > know!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Barton Brown" wrote: > Which is the whole point of a forum like this, IMHO -- an informed > consumer... And you're right: there are certain names I just skip or > killfile, and others I read no matter what the topic, because they > usually have something useful and intelligent to say. Hmmmm .... I > wonder how many killfiles *my* name is in? One more than before! You take that objective and rational thinking elsewhere in a hurry, mister! :-)

On 26 Aug 2000 15:04:55 GMT Loosay2 <[email hidden]> wrote: % I agree. I hope and expect that the damage model will be improved in a patch, % but I cannot remember ever seeing a very realistic damage model in any sim , % ever. % Viper racing has a decent one, but even it falls far short of reality. % Most Software producers seem very reluctant to create huge deformations , much % less flaming explosions and scattered pieces in their sims. Sometimes I have % heard that the licensing agreements prohibit such realistic damage modeling. Other than "body" damage, GPL does have a rather good damage model. Read some of the race recap reports of the GPLWS Season #4 and you will see how minor contact or clipping a curb can cause damage to suspension or tires (same goes for engine abuse). Trust me, when running in Pro damage, the affects are translated to performance (just can't see a bent suspension or damaged tire). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Alan Bernardo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the > best Nascar simulator yet on the market. > > Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. > > Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now > playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing > the bashing. > > All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. > The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like > are-- > > 1. Unnatural flipping > 2. Issue dealing with pull > 3. Damage model > > Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming > from.

I think NH is a ver very good simulation of the NASCAR series. A lot of the complaints are ridiculous as the lack of a save game feature to some makes this an arcade game. BS! It'd be nice to have but then again if we had it, people would complaint that people could easily save each lap and cheat in offline competitions so theres no winning there. The pulling factor is just that some people are too caught up in what they think they know to realise that this is what a NASCAR car does. Damage model is a little weak but there isn't any sim out at the moment that represents actual visible damage too well. GPL is pathetic in this area. GP3 is the best so far IMO, but there is still no sim which will actually have a dent where to hit the wall or break off only what is damaged... it doesn't exist. My beef with it, I feel is valid, in that the excuse of "large textures" preventing me from using my Banshee card at high res. seems a little unreasonable but this by far doesn't make NH an arcade game, its a great sim IMO.

On 26 Aug 2000 15:54:33 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) thus spoke: >Do most publishers have that same methodology(lack of support)? Just curious. Well, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on Hasbro because they *never* fixed F4 to a playable state. They left that up to the flight-sim community. Then they released Gunship in a completely dumbed down and broken state and said there would be no patch. They did eventually release a small patch. But, they cancelled the Tank Platoon add-on to Gunship too. Just found out MP has been cut from B17-2, but hey, so long as I get SP I'm ok. Others are pissed though. The only other developer that has been worse is iMagic and they are no longer in the business. Most developers/publishers have a better track record. -- Nos

Gault wrote: > One more than before! You take that objective and rational thinking > elsewhere in a hurry, mister! :-) Sorry, sorry! I know it goes against the grain in here, but gosh darn it, it just had to be said! Please crucify me NOW! %^{ BB

"Barton Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Gault wrote: > > One more than before! You take that objective and rational thinking > > elsewhere in a hurry, mister! :-) > > Sorry, sorry! I know it goes against the grain in here, but gosh darn > it, it just had to be said! Please crucify me NOW! :-)

Isn't that what happens after every 15 car pileup at Dega? :-) No I agree that the aero damage has little affect, but I ain't damaged often so I don't care -- Tim, [email hidden]|[email hidden] http://legends.sports-gaming.com/forums.shtml FREE forums for your league... http://legends.sports-gaming.com Sim racing website loosely based on gpl... Alan Bernardo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_ncq5.487$[email hidden]... > > 3: damage model > > > > I think this is one of the most advanced damage models I've ever seen, > > enable vertex damage and it's stunning. > > > > -- > It's not the visual damage that is of concern here. Myself, I don't really > care how it looks. I'm looking at how it feels. It is not realistic for a > car to be involved in a pretty serious bang up and then be able to still > race around the track. > > Alanb > >

1: unnatural flipping, (my answer) you buy games to crash? Every time I have crashed it has been by accident and his has been realistic, try driving the right way round the track? ;-) <g> 2: pulling realistic... you want realistic, when you get it you complain... to be honest I hardly feel it, it's just a part of the challenge. 3: damage model I think this is one of the most advanced damage models I've ever seen, enable vertex damage and it's stunning. -- Tim, [email hidden]|[email hidden] http://legends.sports-gaming.com/forums.shtml FREE forums for your league... http://legends.sports-gaming.com Sim racing website loosely based on gpl... Alan Bernardo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm just a little curious. When the demo came Heat was praised as the > best Nascar simulator yet on the market. > > Now that the retail has been released the game is now being trashed. > > Why the difference. It could be this. Everyone who praised NH is now > playing the game and those who are Papy loyalists are the ones doing > the bashing. > > All this negativity centers around NH's so-called arcadish features. > The main features that have caused some to label NH as arcade like > are-- > > 1. Unnatural flipping > 2. Issue dealing with pull > 3. Damage model > > Fix number 3 and I can't see where some people's arguments are coming > from. > > Alanb

Yes, even in hardcore I can run "connected" to the car next to me (our doors touching the entire lap). -- Joe Marques Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MfRp5.5795$[email hidden]... > Just curious, was this in hardcore mode? > > -- > Don Burnette > Dburn in N3 and Legends > ICQ# 74084566 > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WWQp5.26589$[email hidden]... > > I agree that the ability to rid side-by-side and touching is too > forgiving. > > I think it's a fair compromise which allows unparalleled in the pack > racing > > at the expense of some realism. I'd rather have this than wild spins at > the > > slightest touch. I wonder if they could tweak it a bit in a patch. A > > little more danger when colliding would be nice. The cars are too much on > > rails in this instance. > > > > -- > > Joe Marques > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:1AOp5.70910$[email hidden]... > > > I agree with your post listing very "sim-like" features. One aspect that > > > seemed a little strange was that I was racing at Darlington (not that > the > > > track probably matters) and B LaBonte was passing me on the inside of > turn > > > 1. I thought, "the hell he is!" so I came down on him. I kept steering > > left > > > and what happened was that we both did an entire lap touching door to > door > > > until I finally lifted an he went on by. Is this really possible? I > tried > > as > > > hard as I could to run him off the road, but we simply went around the > > track > > > like one 7500 pound, 1400 hp., 8 wheel mega-machine. > > > > > > -- > > > Todd S. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Joe Marques" <Joe"NO_SPAM"[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:XwJp5.26449$[email hidden]... > > > > You've said the same thing twice and both times failed to support your > > > > position with any useful facts. My 3 1/2 year old likes it too, that > > > > doesn't make it an arcade game. Hell he also likes GPL, based on your > > > logic > > > > I guess GPL is arcade too ;-). > > > > > > > > If you think it's not a sim then tell me why. Unsupported conclusory > > > > statements are as useless as tits on a bull. (Hey, I finally used > that > > > > corny line). > > > > > > > > I'll start and tell you why it IS a sim. Solid physics starting with > > the > > > > well modeled engine power, braking dynamics and weight shifting. I > spin > > > the > > > > tires when flooring the gas. I lock the wheels when slamming the > > brakes. > > > > The car rocks in all pertinent directions when effected by these > forces > > > (hey > > > > 6DOF, pretty realistic considering many "sims" are 4DOF). You can > feel > > > the > > > > state of friction in the tires as when they heat/cool or wear. The > car > > > > setup changes have a meaningful impact on performance. They modeled > > > > drafting well where if you're out of the draft on a SS you're out of > the > > > > race. I could go on but that's enough. Now why is this not a sim? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Joe Marques > > > > > > > > Please remove "NO SPAM" to e-mail me. > > > > "RKirby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:59Gp5.90200$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > The goofy flipping is a non issue for me. The ppl complaining are > > prob > > > > > > the same ones who would laugh after they had just done 15 flips in > > GPL > > > > > > > > > > > > Flame away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, it's a game...not a true sim. > > > > > > > > > > Too bad. There's a lot of potential here. It could have been > something > > > > > special if the development process had only gone in a slightly > > different > > > > > direction. > > > > > > > > > > BTW...my 10 year old son loves it...that should tell you all you > need > > to > > > > > know!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:24:22 +0100, "9Wright7" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Damage model is a little weak but there isn't any sim out at the moment that >represents actual visible damage too well. GPL is pathetic in this area. GP3 >is the best so far IMO, but there is still no sim which will actually have a >dent where to hit the wall or break off only what is damaged... it doesn't >exist. I think the complaint is more about how hard it is to actually cause damage than visually representing damage. -- Nos

> 3: damage model > > I think this is one of the most advanced damage models I've ever seen, > enable vertex damage and it's stunning. > > --It's not the visual damage that is of concern here. Myself, I don't really care how it looks. I'm looking at how it feels. It is not realistic for a car to be involved in a pretty serious bang up and then be able to still race around the track. Alanb

I don't care at all about the damage model from a graphics standpoint. When we say NH needs an improved damage model, most of us are refering to the effect bumping/crashing has on our ability to drive the car...fast. NH needs improvement here. And when crashes do occur, NH needs the yellow flag to come out. And when the yellow flag comes out, NH needs to keep the AI cars from mindlessly running into the back of the simmers car. These are major problems with NH. Fix them, and I will love this game/sim! Fix them, and I will be able to lose myself for a couple of hours at a time in this sim, racing and employing pit strategy as the Winston Cup boys do every weekend. Don't fix them, and I'll play this game every once in awhile for a quick (arcade like) driving fix... And hope for a more realistic Nascar racing experience if/when N4 is released. There are many little annoying problems (sound f/x, spotter/crew chief, internet play, info windows that cannot be toggled on/off, etc...) but I can live with all of them. But for me to really love NH, I need the damage model/yellow flag issues fixed! Hope you are listening, Ed!!! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

[email hidden] wrote:

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> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:19:07 -0600, "JJ Thomas" <[email hidden]> thus > spoke: > > >This is the best Nascar Racing Sim to date N3 can't even touch it . Its only > >equal > >is GPL. Its all about the driving model. N3 will soon be deleted from my > >HD. > > > > > > It's not *all* about the driving model. The only area that NH beats N3 > is in the physics enine. I want a racing sim not just a driving sim. > -- > Nos

IMO, Heat also beats N3 in graphics, AI, car setup options, FF, track layouts (not to mention Daytona!), plus it has the Beat the Heat and Race the Pro modes. Heat is the best Nascar game/sim currently on the market. I just can't get into N3 anymore as it has no feel to it after running Heat. I'm looking forward to N4, Heat2, etc.... the competition between Papyrus and MGI/Hasbro will only make things better for us... :-) Dave Ericson "MomoBoy" JDB Racing

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:24:22 +0100, "9Wright7" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > > >Damage model is a little weak but there isn't any sim out at the momentthat > >represents actual visible damage too well. GPL is pathetic in this area.GP3 > >is the best so far IMO, but there is still no sim which will actuallyhave a > >dent where to hit the wall or break off only what is damaged... itdoesn't > >exist. > > I think the complaint is more about how hard it is to actually cause > damage than visually representing damage. > -- > Nos Is it? LOL, How come I'm getting damage warnings on screen and smoke shooting from the engine then when al I do is a 10 lap race? :-)

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <PgIp5.15163$[email hidden]>, "Kai Fuller" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Yatzee! > > > >Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Indeed. > >> > >> rrevved wrote: > >> > Bingo! > > Uno!

You sank my battleship!