SearsGroup: Response to numerous scattered replies on this topic.

Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the original post, but my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. I'm am going to reply to some of these "questions".......but as a new topic so hopefully, this can start a new, consolidated string....making it easier for those of you who want to "filter" this topic from your display. Question Topic: "Gaining sympathy of this newsgroup" This is not about "gaining sympathy"......I don't think any of the parties need anyone's sympathy....I know for sure we don't. What this is about.......is "property - rights of ownership" (a legal issue), and "integrity" (a moral issue). The legal issue is straight forward: Files, documents and data, etc. created by SearsGroup and/or its individuals........all of whom are required to sign the SG NDA......are the property of SearsGroup to the extent that they can not be used by or publicly distributed by the individuals involved with their creation without the permission of SearsGroup management. Every single company in the computer industry has the exact same provision for its employees. This is nothing unusual. Additionally, in this instance.....the "likeness" of Sears Point (as embodied in the collection of files contained in "Sears99") is the property of Sears Point Raceway, and its parent company - SMI. Tim's distribution of the Sears99 file creates two problems for him: 1) It violates his agreement not to do so via the SG NDA...which he was a party to creating and which he signed. And, 2) It violates the property ownership rights of the "likeness of Sears Point Raceway" which belongs to SPR and SMI......NOT to Tim McArthur. I don't know how to make this any clearer....so I hope it is understandable. No one is "hounding" Tim McArthur. It is his decision to post the Sears99 track......so he suffers the consequences of that action (if there are any consequences). If he removes the track from public download, returns or destroys the SG files.....then the matter is over. There is no "lawsuit" .......there never has been. Some people have questioned the rights of Sears Point Raceway to ownership of the "likeness and logos" of the track.....and I can't even begin to respond to those statements. (A).....That is completely outside of the issues here.....and (B)......The laws of this country give that right to SPR and SMI.....and any discussion of whether that is "right or not right" is plain old philosophical rhetoric....better staged in a classroom of some law school......not on r.a.s. That is my opinion, of course. "Integrity" is at stake. Tim's of course.....but also mine, SearsGroup's, collectively....as all the individuals who have worked on the Bulldozer project.....all of whom have, and are complying with the NDA (except Tim).....and all of whom are members of this sim racing community. They can not respond to all these posts and allegations. But I can and that is what I am doing. Question Topic: Making Money, Respect, Glory: This is just a bunch of hogwash. There's is nothing about what Tim has done that will affect the success of Bulldozer in the marketplace. If Bulldozer is a viable product, and it produces a service that customers want/desire to pay money for....then I and all the members of SearsGroup (present and future) will make some money. This is the free enterprise system at work. There are examples of it everywhere on the Internet. Everything done at SearsGroup up to this point has been "developmental - experimental." Period. Building the base track (called Sears99) was one small step of the overall process. Not a single dime of profit has been created from anything we've done.....nor does the "revenue model" we created predict any profits for two more years! Do you really think this issue with Tim....today.....is going to affect some other person's buying decision some two years from now? You can't be serious, if you do think that. "Respect" is earned by your actions, and the integrity of "your word." "Glory" is bestowed upon us by others, it serves the individual no useful purpose. This "community" has a stake in the success of Bulldozer as well as all the "owners" of SearsGroup. Those of you who have taken the time to find out what this is all about.....know that Bulldozer's services, depend in a large way, on the ability to "test race" any proposed changes. In order for the "modification or proposed changes" to be tested...the data needs to be compared to the current or original track. That means....it has to be test raced as well. When Bulldozer is hired......all Test Drivers will be paid for test racing the base track....and the proposed modified track(s). The current "fee" structure for Test Racing......is $50 per driver, per race. Because the data we collect is important.....and the Test Drivers are "paid" for their services, Bulldozer wants/needs the best possible sim drivers available. This description is over-simplified to keep it short. Tim doesn't "believe" Bulldozer will become a viable product, in fact....it appears he never did. That's fine....he is either correct or incorrect....and that is a "test of time" not a test of ego, glory, or greed. There are many people who think Bulldozer is a good "idea" (that's really all it still is........just an "idea")......and that it "can" become a viable product. Everybody's "vote count is equal to - one".....mine included. The "vote" that really counts however, is the one made by people with their checkbooks. In the case of Bulldozer, that is the architects, engineers and owners of the world's race tracks....present and future. The "process" to take Bulldozer from an "idea".....to a viable product is ongoing. We can use anyone's help in this sim racing community that thinks we might be right about this "idea." We certainly don't heed road blocks put up by those of you who don't......we have enough of those created for us by the "process"......thank you very much! If it does turn out that Bulldozer is successful, I think many of you would agree that it would be a huge step in bringing some legitimacy and respect to sim racing......from the real-world racing community. If that happens.....everyone in this community can/will benefit........including Tim McArthur. Some of you are acting like you view us as "opponents" of sim racing. Nothing could be further from the truth.....you are 180 degrees wrong! There are a few other questions/issues that need replies.......but I have unfortunately run out of time to get them in this post. I'll answer them tomorrow. One thing however, I write my own email and newsgroup posts.......they are not previewed or edited by anyone....and certainly not by our attorney at $275 per hour. We've already paid him enough to keep his race car running in tip-top shape for a couple seasons.......lol......we don't need to just "give away" money to him! Maybe that wasn't a serious question? But, this is a serious answer......just in case. And one last thing. The notion that Steve Page's letter is a forgery.....is so far out in space I'm not going to even respond beyond this single sentence. I'm sorry I even had to write it .........about such a ridiculous notion. Regards, Tom Pabst SearsGroup, Pabst-Racing

I'm curious as to what percentage of "Bulldozer" came from (or consists of) Papyrus' Nascar Racing 3. I've also wondered while reading these threads how much of "Sears 99" came from Papyrus' Sears Point in N3. Did you start with the original track as a foundation, or did you build the track from the ground up? Also, from my perspective here it is apparent that without Nascar Racing 3, "Bulldozer" would be nothing but a track (in the case of Sears Point) and the tools to hack it - yet you don't mention Papyrus, only "Sears Group". You can't do much with a track if you don't have the program to run cars around it. Seems to me that Papy deserves some (if not most) of the credit here... --David Cook In article <u8gu5.180299$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote... > Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the original post, but > my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. > > I'm am going to reply to some of these "questions".......but as a new topic > so hopefully, this can start a new, consolidated string....making it easier > for those of you who want to "filter" this topic from your display.

Tom, The only people who care about your stances on morality and integrity are the same people that are telling you what Tim has done is wrong. We don't want to hear it, don't care to know about it and if you had created anything, we might agree that you have a leg to stand on. I don't claim to know Tim and I've only ran the Sears99 track once, but seeing such an egotistical and pompous display reinforces my perception that most PR-centric individuals are shite. Those who can do, those who can't talk about it. Go away, please. In article <u8gu5.180299$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the originalpost, but > my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. > > I'm am going to reply to some of these "questions".......but as a newtopic > so hopefully, this can start a new, consolidated string....making iteasier > for those of you who want to "filter" this topic from your display. > > Question Topic: "Gaining sympathy of this newsgroup" > > This is not about "gaining sympathy"......I don't think any of the > parties need anyone's sympathy....I know for sure we don't. Whatthis is > about.......is "property - rights of ownership" (a legal issue), and > "integrity" (a moral issue). The legal issue is straight forward:Files, > documents and data, etc. created by SearsGroup and/or its > individuals........all of whom are required to sign the SGNDA......are the > property of SearsGroup to the extent that they can not be used by or > publicly distributed by the individuals involved with their creationwithout > the permission of SearsGroup management. Every single company in the > computer industry has the exact same provision for its employees.This is > nothing unusual. Additionally, in this instance.....the "likeness"of Sears > Point (as embodied in the collection of files containedin "Sears99") is > the property of Sears Point Raceway, and its parent company - SMI.Tim's > distribution of the Sears99 file creates two problems for him: 1) It > violates his agreement not to do so via the SG NDA...which he was aparty to > creating and which he signed. And, 2) It violates the propertyownership > rights of the "likeness of Sears Point Raceway" which belongs to SPRand > SMI......NOT to Tim McArthur. I don't know how to make this any > clearer....so I hope it is understandable. > > No one is "hounding" Tim McArthur. It is his decision to post the > Sears99 track......so he suffers the consequences of that action (ifthere > are any consequences). If he removes the track from public download, > returns or destroys the SG files.....then the matter is over. Thereis no > "lawsuit" .......there never has been. > > Some people have questioned the rights of Sears Point Raceway to > ownership of the "likeness and logos" of the track.....and I can'teven > begin to respond to those statements. (A).....That is completelyoutside of > the issues here.....and (B)......The laws of this country give thatright to > SPR and SMI.....and any discussion of whether that is "right or notright" > is plain old philosophical rhetoric....better staged in a classroomof some > law school......not on r.a.s. That is my opinion, of course. > > "Integrity" is at stake. Tim's of course.....but also mine,SearsGroup's, > collectively....as all the individuals who have worked on theBulldozer > project.....all of whom have, and are complying with the NDA (except > Tim).....and all of whom are members of this sim racing community.They can > not respond to all these posts and allegations. But I can and thatis what > I am doing. > > Question Topic: Making Money, Respect, Glory: > > This is just a bunch of hogwash. There's is nothing about what Timhas done > that will affect the success of Bulldozer in the marketplace. IfBulldozer > is a viable product, and it produces a service that customerswant/desire to > pay money for....then I and all the members of SearsGroup (present and > future) will make some money. This is the free enterprise system atwork. > There are examples of it everywhere on the Internet. Everything doneat > SearsGroup up to this point has been "developmental - experimental." > Period. Building the base track (called Sears99) was one small stepof the > overall process. Not a single dime of profit has been created fromanything > we've done.....nor does the "revenue model" we created predict anyprofits > for two more years! Do you really think this issue withTim....today.....is > going to affect some other person's buying decision some two yearsfrom now? > You can't be serious, if you do think that. > > "Respect" is earned by your actions, and the integrity of "your word." > "Glory" is bestowed upon us by others, it serves the individual nouseful > purpose. > > This "community" has a stake in the success of Bulldozer as well asall the > "owners" of SearsGroup. Those of you who have taken the time to findout > what this is all about.....know that Bulldozer's services, depend ina large > way, on the ability to "test race" any proposed changes. In orderfor the > "modification or proposed changes" to be tested...the data needs to be > compared to the current or original track. That means....it has tobe test > raced as well. When Bulldozer is hired......all Test Drivers will bepaid > for test racing the base track....and the proposed modified track(s). The > current "fee" structure for Test Racing......is $50 per driver, perrace. > Because the data we collect is important.....and the Test Driversare "paid" > for their services, Bulldozer wants/needs the best possible simdrivers > available. This description is over-simplified to keep it short. > > Tim doesn't "believe" Bulldozer will become a viable product, infact....it > appears he never did. That's fine....he is either correct or > incorrect....and that is a "test of time" not a test of ego, glory, or > greed. There are many people who think Bulldozer is a good "idea"(that's > really all it still is........just an "idea")......and that it "can"become > a viable product. Everybody's "vote count is equal to - one".....mine > included. The "vote" that really counts however, is the one made bypeople > with their checkbooks. In the case of Bulldozer, that is thearchitects, > engineers and owners of the world's race tracks....present andfuture. The > "process" to take Bulldozer from an "idea".....to a viable product is > ongoing. We can use anyone's help in this sim racing community thatthinks > we might be right about this "idea." We certainly don't heed roadblocks > put up by those of you who don't......we have enough of those createdfor us > by the "process"......thank you very much! > > If it does turn out that Bulldozer is successful, I think many of youwould > agree that it would be a huge step in bringing some legitimacy andrespect > to sim racing......from the real-world racing community. If that > happens.....everyone in this community can/willbenefit........including Tim > McArthur. Some of you are acting like you view us as "opponents" ofsim > racing. Nothing could be further from the truth.....you are 180degrees > wrong! > > There are a few other questions/issues that need replies.......but Ihave > unfortunately run out of time to get them in this post. I'll answerthem > tomorrow. > > One thing however, I write my own email and newsgroupposts.......they are > not previewed or edited by anyone....and certainly not by ourattorney at > $275 per hour. We've already paid him enough to keep his race carrunning > in tip-top shape for a couple seasons.......lol......we don't need tojust > "give away" money to him! Maybe that wasn't a serious question?But, this > is a serious answer......just in case. > > And one last thing. The notion that Steve Page's letter is aforgery.....is > so far out in space I'm not going to even respond beyond this single > sentence. I'm sorry I even had to write it .........about such aridiculous

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> notion. > > Regards, > > Tom Pabst > SearsGroup, Pabst-Racing > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:12:58 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: a lot. Don't you ever stop typing? Sheesh. ~daxe

I want to appologize to everyone. I didnt realize that my post a few days ago in an attempt to clear up Tom's error of calling me an "employee/partner of Sears Group" would start such a load of threads. Though I find it very difficult to NOT respond to Tom's posts, I will no longer be doing so. Im sorry you all have to deal with the problems between two individuals, both fighting for what they believe is right. Tom, I never stated that Steve Page's letter was a forgery, but still you and your lawyer refuse to give me a contact number to verify it's authenticity, Does make me think twice.

Well, since I am violating the NDA anyway (sarcasm) I may as well go all the way. Sears99, the racing surface itself, was created from scratch. The textures, objects, and just about every other file in the track was EDITED from the existing SearsPt track already in N3. If SearsGroup makes money off the Sears99 track, they are violating the license agreement included with N3 even if Sears99 contained no Papyrus files, it still uses the Papyrus code and product. Tom/SearsGroup would not be able to answer this question (due to lack of knowledge) so I did. On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:30:10 -0400, David L. Cook <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I'm curious as to what percentage of "Bulldozer" came from (or consists of) >Papyrus' Nascar Racing 3. I've also wondered while reading these threads how >much of "Sears 99" came from Papyrus' Sears Point in N3. > >Did you start with the original track as a foundation, or did you build the track >from the ground up? Also, from my perspective here it is apparent that without >Nascar Racing 3, "Bulldozer" would be nothing but a track (in the case of Sears >Point) and the tools to hack it - yet you don't mention Papyrus, only "Sears >Group". You can't do much with a track if you don't have the program to run cars >around it. Seems to me that Papy deserves some (if not most) of the credit >here... > >--David Cook > >In article <u8gu5.180299$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] >wrote... >> Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the original post, but >> my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. >> >> I'm am going to reply to some of these "questions".......but as a new topic >> so hopefully, this can start a new, consolidated string....making it easier >> for those of you who want to "filter" this topic from your display.

Geesh......how about he looks on the letter.....Steve's telephone number is on it......at the top. Along with his fax number.....the track's website address and street address. There's only one telephone number for SPR....there has always been only one telephone number for SPR.....and it's the same telephone number Tim has used for close to a year now to call the office of Bob Davis, the track architect. But, now he can't comply with Steve's request until we give him his telephone number? This is the kind of "mumbo-jumbo" that comes out of him all the time. And you guys think he is being forthright with all of this? You can't be serious..... "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > Tom, I never stated that Steve Page's letter was a forgery, but still > > you and your lawyer refuse to give me a contact number to verify it's > > authenticity, Does make me think twice. > > Why don't you just write to Steve and ask him? > > Cheers > > Gerry

Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as you know, it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to Mr Page, I cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 09:21:19 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Geesh......how about he looks on the letter.....Steve's telephone number is >on it......at the top. Along with his fax number.....the track's website >address and street address. There's only one telephone number for >SPR....there has always been only one telephone number for SPR.....and it's >the same telephone number Tim has used for close to a year now to call the >office of Bob Davis, the track architect. But, now he can't comply with >Steve's request until we give him his telephone number? > >This is the kind of "mumbo-jumbo" that comes out of him all the time. And >you guys think he is being forthright with all of this? You can't be >serious..... > > >"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> >> >> Tim McArthur wrote: >> >> > Tom, I never stated that Steve Page's letter was a forgery, but still >> > you and your lawyer refuse to give me a contact number to verify it's >> > authenticity, Does make me think twice. >> >> Why don't you just write to Steve and ask him? >> >> Cheers >> >> Gerry > >

In article <39b9e7a0.86968209@news>, [email hidden] wrote... > Sears99, the racing surface itself, was created from scratch. The > textures, objects, and just about every other file in the track was > EDITED from the existing SearsPt track already in N3. Heh. Very interesting. A "company" that has an NDA for hacks with someone elses product. Papyrus ought to put "Searsgroup" out of business and settle this once and for all... --David Cook

Gerry Aitken wrote:

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> > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > > Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as you know, > > it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to Mr Page, I > > cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? > > Why don't you just write to him then?

Maybe he has ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Hi, I must be a little thick i guess, though i have been following this thread, i cannot understand how a 3rd party company can copyright a product based on a edited release of a track papyrus made in the first place.. I'm not taking sides, or having a go at anyone, but i can't really understand why such a big fuss is being made over Tim releasing Sears99 to the sim racing community, especially since he did a fair proportion of the conversion work... I was under the impression we (RAS) were a community based on computer simulations and we all try to help each other out the best we can, wether it is with add-on tracks from the various designers, setups,graphic add-ons, utilities or any other sundry that might enter your/our heads...... We are all not track designer, setup engineers or graphic enhancement artists, but we all try to give a little bit back to our community... Why would someone produce a fine looking track, based on/from Papy's Sears Point, then suddenly decide that it is too good to share with the sim community and consequently try to stop us (the sim community) from downloading it, especially as it would be useless and non-existant without Papy in the first place. ? I may have that wrong, but to me. it seems like that is what is occuring at the moment, as it looks like the holy dollar is the ultimate goal in this venture.. Sears99 would be a great track to be able to convert to GPL, but it seems we as a group are going to be denied it, through petty bickering and self induced importance... Cheers, Ron Ayton Australia Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in article <[email hidden]>... > > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > This is the kind of "mumbo-jumbo" that comes out of him all thetime. And > > you guys think he is being forthright with all of this? You can'tbe > > serious..... > > > When you say,"..you guys..", do you include me? I've not taken side,and > I'm unlikely to. > > Cheers >

In article <u8gu5.180299$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the original post, but > my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. > Tom, stop using Outlook as your mail/news reader. It's done nothing but muddy this issue (whatever the issue really is).Use a dedicated email program like Eudora, and a dedicated newsreader (like Gravity or Agent). When you make this change, your email and news articles won't be Micorosft'd and you'll be less susceptible to viruses too. All of these coincidental mistakes are making you look like you're trying to hide something. Besides that, this isn't a matter for the courts. Just settle it like men. I recommend a compound box with a 50 pound pull and each of you stand 80 yards appart and shoot arrows at each other until someone dies (or chickens out). May the best man win. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

GO AWAY you phony!! It is people like you who give capitalism a bad name. You can't actually create anything yourself and now your pissed that the talent has hit the road, leaving you without a means to your ultimate end, leeching money from others. The only think I have ever seen with your name on it was a soundpack for GPL, one that pales in comparison to the GPLEA. Please go away and take your foolish legal ramblings with you. WE DON'T CARE!! In article <jinu5.180893$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Geesh......how about he looks on the letter.....Steve's telephonenumber is > on it......at the top. Along with his fax number.....the track'swebsite > address and street address. There's only one telephone number for > SPR....there has always been only one telephone number forSPR.....and it's > the same telephone number Tim has used for close to a year now tocall the > office of Bob Davis, the track architect. But, now he can't complywith > Steve's request until we give him his telephone number? > > This is the kind of "mumbo-jumbo" that comes out of him all thetime. And

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> you guys think he is being forthright with all of this? You can't be > serious..... > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > > > Tom, I never stated that Steve Page's letter was a forgery, but

still > > > you and your lawyer refuse to give me a contact number to verifyit's

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> > > authenticity, Does make me think twice. > > > > Why don't you just write to Steve and ask him? > > > > Cheers > > > > Gerry > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <01c01a61$e4939140$f23c36cb@ronayton>, [email hidden] says...

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> Hi, > I may have that wrong, but to me. it seems like that is what is > occuring at the moment, as it looks like the holy dollar is the > ultimate goal in this venture.. > Sears99 would be a great track to be able to convert to GPL, but it > seems we as a group are going to be denied it, through petty bickering > and self induced importance...

Bingo. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

I'm the IS Mgr for a paint manufacturer (http://www.flexbon.com) and in my mind I draw this comparison to what is being done with "Sears Group" and Papyrus Nascar Racing 3 / Sears Point: Lets say my company manufactures a gallon of paint. It is then purchased at the point of sale without colorant by a retail customer. That customer then add's his own colorant, proceeds to rename and claim the finished product then resells MY paint to someone else for a profit. I'm not a lawyer but I think that's illegal... --David Cook In article <01c01a61$e4939140$f23c36cb@ronayton>, [email hidden] wrote... > Hi, > I must be a little thick i guess, though i have been following this > thread, i cannot understand how a 3rd party company can copyright a > product based on a edited release of a track papyrus made in the first > place..

Tim McArthur wrote: > Tom, I never stated that Steve Page's letter was a forgery, but still > you and your lawyer refuse to give me a contact number to verify it's > authenticity, Does make me think twice. Why don't you just write to Steve and ask him? Cheers Gerry

Tom Pabst wrote: > This is the kind of "mumbo-jumbo" that comes out of him all the time. And > you guys think he is being forthright with all of this? You can't be > serious..... When you say,"..you guys..", do you include me? I've not taken side, and I'm unlikely to. Cheers

Tim McArthur wrote: > > Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as you know, > it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to Mr Page, I > cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? Why don't you just write to him then? Cheers Gerry

LOL, sounds fun On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 12:42:43 GMT, [email hidden] (John Simmons) wrote:

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>In article <u8gu5.180299$[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] says... >> Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the original post, but >> my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. >> > >Tom, stop using Outlook as your mail/news reader. It's done nothing but >muddy this issue (whatever the issue really is).Use a dedicated email >program like Eudora, and a dedicated newsreader (like Gravity or Agent). >When you make this change, your email and news articles won't be >Micorosft'd and you'll be less susceptible to viruses too. > >All of these coincidental mistakes are making you look like you're trying >to hide something. > >Besides that, this isn't a matter for the courts. Just settle it like >men. I recommend a compound box with a 50 pound pull and each of you >stand 80 yards appart and shoot arrows at each other until someone dies >(or chickens out). > >May the best man win. > >-- >========================================================= >Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > http://www.paddedwall.org/john >Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast >DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > >If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown >above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. >=========================================================

Well said Ron. This is all about the creative people vs the hustlers. I'll side with the creators every time. Marty Ron Ayton wrote:

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> Hi, > I must be a little thick i guess, though i have been following this > thread, i cannot understand how a 3rd party company can copyright a > product based on a edited release of a track papyrus made in the first > place.. > I'm not taking sides, or having a go at anyone, but i can't really > understand why such a big fuss is being made over Tim releasing Sears99 > to the sim racing community, especially since he did a fair proportion > of the conversion work... > I was under the impression we (RAS) were a community based on computer > simulations and we all try to help each other out the best we can, > wether it is with add-on tracks from the various designers, > setups,graphic add-ons, utilities or any other sundry that might enter > your/our heads...... > We are all not track designer, setup engineers or graphic enhancement > artists, but we all try to give a little bit back to our community... > Why would someone produce a fine looking track, based on/from Papy's > Sears Point, then suddenly decide that it is too good to share with the > sim community and consequently try to stop us (the sim community) from > downloading it, especially as it would be useless and non-existant > without Papy in the first place. ? > I may have that wrong, but to me. it seems like that is what is > occuring at the moment, as it looks like the holy dollar is the > ultimate goal in this venture.. > Sears99 would be a great track to be able to convert to GPL, but it > seems we as a group are going to be denied it, through petty bickering > and self induced importance... > > Cheers, > Ron Ayton > Australia > > Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in article > <[email hidden]>... > > > > > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > > This is the kind of "mumbo-jumbo" that comes out of him all the > time. And > > > you guys think he is being forthright with all of this? You can't > be > > > serious..... > > > > > > When you say,"..you guys..", do you include me? I've not taken side, > and > > I'm unlikely to. > > > > Cheers > >

David... These are good questions. As "percentages" of Bulldozer that came from Papy's N3...and the questions about how the Sears99 track was built.....I provided detailed info on that a couple days ago in response to a post below. I don't want to start "repeating" posts....so I hope you can take a moment to read that. One point to make about Bulldozer....is it's a "service" not a product. It's used by a race track architect, or designer, or engineer....much in the same way he would use a "CAD" drawing program....only the Bulldozer CAD-like model is raceable in a simulated fashion. Its really nothing more than that. That opens up a whole world of possibilities to these architects that they don't currently have available to them. I can tell you this, we have not explained Bulldozer to one single track owner, or architect....that thought it was a dumb idea. In fact, all but one of them said they would be "customers of Bulldozer....sight unseen!" We are encouraged by this....but we have to finish the developmental work so we can feel confident in delivering the service we promise...and contract for....with these tracks. We had to "rebuild" the Sears Point track in N3 because it was not modeled accurately enough by Papyrus to suit our needs via the Bulldozer process. This is not a "knock" on Papyrus....they had no reason to detail the modeling of Sears the way we needed it detailed. That's the only reason N3 was used, along with the fact that whatever we used....it needed to have a race car that was as close as possible to a NASCAR Winston Cup car....that was the track configuration we were allowed to test-case Bulldozer on! When we started that process (rebuilding Papyrus' Sears track)........we realized it would be faster to start from scratch to build what we needed for the Sears track...than to try to modify the geometry in the Papy version. Its kind of like trying to remodel an old house.....sometimes its faster and less costly to tear the old house down to the ground....and start with a fresh foundation.....than try to rebuild the existing structure. I hope that makes sense. We couldn't ask Papyrus to do this for us. Why would they? They are a "gaming developer" not an engineering and architectural company. Besides, Bulldozer was totally unproven at the early stage where we were building the original Sears track version. There was nothing to even show Papyrus that our "idea" had even a hint of being a good one. Several months later....when Bulldozer was beginning to take on a character of being a viable product....we contacted Papyrus and explained what we were doing and what help we could use from them when all of this "development work" was completed. The development work is ongoing.....and so is our discussions with Papyrus. However, we are not limited to only one "simulation"......and I doubt Bulldozer will ever be based on only one "simulation software" from just one company. There are three other companies we have involvement with......and this is looking like the way its going to be.....if/when Bulldozer is ready for marketing. That is expected to be at least another year. Remember, Bulldozer has nothing to do with the retail gaming industry. Its not a competitor to any company in that industry.....and it more often than not, could be a good marketing tool for a gaming developer to use.....if Bulldozer was based on sophisticated versions of NASCAR Heat.......do you think Hasbro would be using that in their marketing to sell retail game versions of NASCAR Heat? Of course they would. As far as the question about the Papyrus UA. Here's what we did before deciding which sim to use as a "test" of Bulldozer's viability. We had a respected Internet attorney look at the UA......it was pretty much a standard one. The clause in Papy's about "can't use our game to make money" was considered to be unenforceable. That....is an opinion.....not a fact. And, it would never be a "fact" unless the clause was adjudicated in a court of law (Civil Contracts Law). His simple way of putting it was: That would be like Microsoft saying you can't use Word for writing letters that make you money. Or Hoyle....having a little slip in their deck of playing cards saying, "You can use our cards to play poker...but you can't play for money." Now sure.....I agree that's a "simplistic" way of looking at this issue. But, if you add into the picture that if we used.....for example only.......if we used Papy's software for the Bulldozer track modeling....when Bulldozer became a viable product.....then we'd be paying them a substantial percentage of the $50 million dollars which is the Five-year Revenue Model for Bulldozer. It doesn't make reasonable sense that Papyrus or Sierra management would be interested in suing someone who wants to give them a junk of $50 million bucks. Does it? So, we took what we considered to be a good calculated risk and did not talk to Papyrus about what we were doing with N3 until we felt Bulldozer had at least gained some level of viability. This is also one of the prime reasons we needed the NDA. We didn't want information leaking out to anyone....let alone Papyrus....until we were ready to be able to explain exactly what we were doing, what we could offer....in terms of compensation for using their "game engine only"....we would be building the tracks. That time came a month or so before the Winston Cup race at Sears Point. I hope that answers your questions in the way you were thinking of them? Regards, Tom "David L. Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm curious as to what percentage of "Bulldozer" came from (or consistsof) > Papyrus' Nascar Racing 3. I've also wondered while reading these threadshow > much of "Sears 99" came from Papyrus' Sears Point in N3. > > Did you start with the original track as a foundation, or did you buildthe track > from the ground up? Also, from my perspective here it is apparent thatwithout > Nascar Racing 3, "Bulldozer" would be nothing but a track (in the case ofSears > Point) and the tools to hack it - yet you don't mention Papyrus, only"Sears > Group". You can't do much with a track if you don't have the program torun cars > around it. Seems to me that Papy deserves some (if not most) of thecredit > here... > > --David Cook > > In article <u8gu5.180299$[email hidden]>,[email hidden] > wrote... > > Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the original post,but > > my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. > > > > I'm am going to reply to some of these "questions".......but as a newtopic > > so hopefully, this can start a new, consolidated string....making iteasier > > for those of you who want to "filter" this topic from your display.

Thanks Goy.....I thought that would be obvious....but maybe I was wrong. The "number" for Sears goes to a call directing program.....like many companies use these days. It is not an answering machine and never has been. Tim has been using the same "process" to call the track for as long as he's been associated with SearsGroup. The message directs you to "dial zero" for the operator's direction to your party if you don't know their extension number (in which case you dial it yourself at anytime during the message/greeting). Is this high tech stuff or something.....lol I don't think so. "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > > > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > > > > Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as you know, > > > it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to Mr Page, I > > > cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? > > > > Why don't you just write to him then? > > Maybe he has ? :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

lol....too funny John..... I will take your advice however, on the email and news reader. This is just about the last time I'm going to put up with using Outlook as the email client.....and Outlook Express as the newsgroup client....just because Outlook can't be used for newsgroups! I don't know what MS had in their heads...but it was not "the user" I don't think? This is not the first time I've had problems with this issue....and that goes for several people I know that use MS Office 2000 software. But, I can't just uninstall that massive of a program...over night. So you guys will have to "understand" that these problems were not intentional. At least for a few more days until I can get time to remove this junk from my computer. Thanks for making me laugh too......that was cool. Tom "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <u8gu5.180299$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Well, it appears that there are several "replies" to the original post,but

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> > my "reader" shows them scattered under other replies or posts, etc. > > > > Tom, stop using Outlook as your mail/news reader. It's done nothing but > muddy this issue (whatever the issue really is).Use a dedicated email > program like Eudora, and a dedicated newsreader (like Gravity or Agent). > When you make this change, your email and news articles won't be > Micorosft'd and you'll be less susceptible to viruses too. > > All of these coincidental mistakes are making you look like you're trying > to hide something. > > Besides that, this isn't a matter for the courts. Just settle it like > men. I recommend a compound box with a 50 pound pull and each of you > stand 80 yards appart and shoot arrows at each other until someone dies > (or chickens out). > > May the best man win. > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

In article <C4yu5.181531$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote... > One point to make about Bulldozer....is it's a "service" not a product. Well, at first I was inclined to draw a comparison with what you are doing to my industry (paint). Lets say my company http://www.flexbon.com manufactures a gallon of paint. It is then purchased at the point of sale without colorant by a retail customer. That customer then add's his own colorant, proceeds to rename and claim the finished product then resells my paint to someone else for a profit. This would be wrong. BUT - I then thought about how your business is a service not a product to be sold. So I thought of how we sell our paint to painting contractors so that they can make a living applying our coatings to their customers buildings, houses etc. In this analogy I see a better comparison to Bulldozer. In that respect I can understand the justification for how you are going about this. It just seems like you're walking a fine line here with only limited communication with Papyrus regarding your work so far... --David Cook

David... You have got it exactly correct now. Your analogy is right on target. Regarding Papyrus......remember the time at which the Sears99 track was being constructed (which has taken up an inordinate amount of this discussion....and it's only one of 5 tracks that were built...and it occurred almost six months ago now).....that is the time we didn't want to talk to Papy......because we had nothing to tell them ....yet! All of that has changed....as we expected it would, or at least as we hoped it would. So......lets be clear: "Limited communication with Papyrus" was then......that is not the case now. Does that make this a little clearer in perspective? If not...send me an email and I'll go into more detail off the public record. Regards, Tom PS: David...another good way to look at "communicating with Papyrus" would be this. Let's use your paint as an example. Let's say I'm a paint contractor...and I "think" I've discovered a chemical that I know how to make (and by this example...you don't know how to make).........a chemical that when added to your paint....will triple the useful life when applied to a house. Would it be wise for me to bring this idea to you "before".....or "after" I have tested this at least a little bit....to make sure my "idea" is correct...and it does do what we thought it did to your paint's useful life. It seems to me that it would be prudent to test this out first....then when we come to your company...we're not taking a chance of being looked at like we are some kind of "retards" or something...you know? This is exactly why we didn't go to Papy from the start....there wasn't anything to tell them yet. I hope that helps. "David L. Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <C4yu5.181531$[email hidden]>,[email hidden] > wrote... > > One point to make about Bulldozer....is it's a "service" not a product. > > Well, at first I was inclined to draw a comparison with what you are doingto my > industry (paint). Lets say my company http://www.flexbon.com manufacturesa > gallon of paint. It is then purchased at the point of sale withoutcolorant by a > retail customer. That customer then add's his own colorant, proceeds torename > and claim the finished product then resells my paint to someone else for a > profit. This would be wrong. > > BUT - I then thought about how your business is a service not a product tobe > sold. So I thought of how we sell our paint to painting contractors sothat they > can make a living applying our coatings to their customers buildings,houses etc. > In this analogy I see a better comparison to Bulldozer. In that respect Ican > understand the justification for how you are going about this. It justseems > like you're walking a fine line here with only limited communication withPapyrus > regarding your work so far... > > --David Cook

The difference is you sold your product to the contractors who had the intent to use your product on their products and services. I also doubt your paint had a EULA <G> I don't think Papyrus developed N3 or the Sears Track with the intent for it to be modified and used for other commercial purposes. I'm not a lawyer though (Thank God!! <VBG>) -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ# 4395450 "David L. Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <C4yu5.181531$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > wrote... > > One point to make about Bulldozer....is it's a "service" not a product. > > Well, at first I was inclined to draw a comparison with what you are doing to my > industry (paint). Lets say my company http://www.flexbon.com manufactures a > gallon of paint. It is then purchased at the point of sale without colorant by a > retail customer. That customer then add's his own colorant, proceeds to rename > and claim the finished product then resells my paint to someone else for a > profit. This would be wrong. > > BUT - I then thought about how your business is a service not a product to be > sold. So I thought of how we sell our paint to painting contractors so that they > can make a living applying our coatings to their customers buildings, houses etc. > In this analogy I see a better comparison to Bulldozer. In that respect I can > understand the justification for how you are going about this. It just seems > like you're walking a fine line here with only limited communication with Papyrus > regarding your work so far... > > --David Cook

Ok Gerry.... But I gotta charge you if I come over and setup your video for you...what kind is it? You know, I'm a "money hungry" guy....gotta, charge, charge, charge....you know that don't you? Tim's original "statement" on the telephone number was directly insinuating that our "failure to provide it him".....was "a" reason he was suspicious of the authenticity of the letter. Go read it again. That is of course, meant for your guys ears........it is total BS...... of course he knows how to contact Steve Page. And, I can't imagine how Tim could possibly conceive that I would do something so blatantly illegal....under such a huge "microscope" as all of this is......when we have a couple hundred thousand in future "contracts" on the table at Sears Point..and at SMI for work when Bulldozer is ready! For what, so I could fake out Tim into taking the track off the web....which isn't even any of my business (or at least it is a big subordinate to SPR's business as the owners of the track)? He is clearly using it as a "stalling tactic".....but "why"...I have no clue! Tom "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > Thanks Goy.....I thought that would be obvious....but maybe I was wrong. > > I thought the meaning in my question to Tim was obvious....but maybe I > was wrong! > > > The "number" for Sears goes to a call directing program.....like many > > companies use these days. It is not an answering machine and never has > > been. Tim has been using the same "process" to call the track for as

long > > as he's been associated with SearsGroup. The message directs you to"dial > > zero" for the operator's direction to your party if you don't know their > > extension number (in which case you dial it yourself at anytime duringthe > > message/greeting). Is this high tech stuff or something.....lol Idon't

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> > think so. > > Gee thanks Tom, now thanks to you, we know how the phones at Sears work! > > Maybe you can come round and set my video up for me? > > It's pretty clear that Tim knows how to contact Steve - christ it was > even to me! I just want to hear him say he can't get through on the > phone or fax or by e or snail mail

On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:46:29 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Thanks Goy.....I thought that would be obvious....but maybe I was wrong. >The "number" for Sears goes to a call directing program.....like many >companies use these days. It is not an answering machine and never has >been. Tim has been using the same "process" to call the track for as long >as he's been associated with SearsGroup. The message directs you to "dial >zero" for the operator's direction to your party if you don't know their >extension number (in which case you dial it yourself at anytime during the >message/greeting). Is this high tech stuff or something.....lol I don't >think so.

Stop the presses! a post by Tom Pabst of less than 50 lines..it's a miracle ~daxe

Ok Tom, you stated in a previous post that you would have posted the new and improved version of Sears99 if Tim hadn't of posted the version he did, so post it then.. !! If you do this, then i will concede you may have the sim community at heart and not the dollar, but untill you do, i will stick to my original assessment.. Cheers, Ron Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in article <Wszu5.181673$[email hidden]>... > Ok Gerry.... > > But I gotta charge you if I come over and setup your video foryou...what > kind is it? You know, I'm a "money hungry" guy....gotta, charge,charge, > charge....you know that don't you? > > Tim's original "statement" on the telephone number was directlyinsinuating > that our "failure to provide it him".....was "a" reason he wassuspicious of > the authenticity of the letter. Go read it again. That is ofcourse, meant > for your guys ears........it is total BS...... of course he knows howto > contact Steve Page. > > And, I can't imagine how Tim could possibly conceive that I would do > something so blatantly illegal....under such a huge "microscope" asall of > this is......when we have a couple hundred thousand in future"contracts" on > the table at Sears Point..and at SMI for work when Bulldozer isready! For > what, so I could fake out Tim into taking the track off theweb....which > isn't even any of my business (or at least it is a big subordinate toSPR's > business as the owners of the track)? He is clearly using it as a"stalling > tactic".....but "why"...I have no clue! > > Tom >

Gerry Aitken wrote:

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> > Goy Larsen wrote: > > > > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > > > > > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as you know, > > > > it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to Mr Page, I > > > > cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? > > > > > > Why don't you just write to him then? > > > > Maybe he has ? :-) > > Or, much more likely, doesn't want to?

Since I have an advantage over you with Tim now being a part of "The Pits", my "educated guess" is that you're wrong :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting are the only true sports...all others are games." --Ernest Hemingway--

Tom Pabst wrote:

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> > Thanks Goy.....I thought that would be obvious....but maybe I was wrong. > The "number" for Sears goes to a call directing program.....like many > companies use these days. It is not an answering machine and never has > been. Tim has been using the same "process" to call the track for as long > as he's been associated with SearsGroup. The message directs you to "dial > zero" for the operator's direction to your party if you don't know their > extension number (in which case you dial it yourself at anytime during the > message/greeting). Is this high tech stuff or something.....lol I don't > think so.

We could talk about "high tech" stuff Tom, but I just want to say that in no way should you interpret my post as a support for yourself or your cause, I have my opinions on all of this but I think it's pretty evident from my sig where I hang my hat, and then it should be clear to you why I don't express those opinions Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting are the only true sports...all others are games." --Ernest Hemingway--

I know Tom I said I was not going to weigh in on this again, but I am in sales and deal with automated answering systems and Voice mail systems all the time. They suck people hide behind then and well usually with direct numbers I do not have that problem. I would say give him the last three digits and then the issue of the phone is now over. Please tho in 50 lines or less. this was posted on RAS since Tom's mail system updates emails posts to him. Dave Robinson > > > > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as youknow, > > > > > it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to MrPage, I > > > > > cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? > > > >

Hate to say it, but Tom does not have a "higher quality" Sears Point track. Tom does not know how to build tracks, that is what I was for. There are a couple hunderd differences between Sears99v3 (the track Tom helped me with) and Sears99v4 the one actually released on the internet. On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 23:55:40 GMT, "Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ok Tom, you stated in a previous post that you would have posted the >new and improved version of Sears99 if Tim hadn't of posted the version >he did, so post it then.. !! >If you do this, then i will concede you may have the sim community at >heart and not the dollar, but untill you do, i will stick to my >original assessment.. > >Cheers, >Ron > >Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in article ><Wszu5.181673$[email hidden]>... >> Ok Gerry.... >> >> But I gotta charge you if I come over and setup your video for >you...what >> kind is it? You know, I'm a "money hungry" guy....gotta, charge, >charge, >> charge....you know that don't you? >> >> Tim's original "statement" on the telephone number was directly >insinuating >> that our "failure to provide it him".....was "a" reason he was >suspicious of >> the authenticity of the letter. Go read it again. That is of >course, meant >> for your guys ears........it is total BS...... of course he knows how >to >> contact Steve Page. >> >> And, I can't imagine how Tim could possibly conceive that I would do >> something so blatantly illegal....under such a huge "microscope" as >all of >> this is......when we have a couple hundred thousand in future >"contracts" on >> the table at Sears Point..and at SMI for work when Bulldozer is >ready! For >> what, so I could fake out Tim into taking the track off the >web....which >> isn't even any of my business (or at least it is a big subordinate to >SPR's >> business as the owners of the track)? He is clearly using it as a >"stalling >> tactic".....but "why"...I have no clue! >> >> Tom >> >

Simply put, I have no reason to. The letter addressed to me from Steve page clearly asks me to "cease any unauthorized use of Sears Point Raceway images" and I have done just that. I have still not been asked to remove Sears99v4 or to stop the release of the soon-to-be released Sears97. I have always stated that if SPR or SMI wants me to remove Sears99 from the web, I will do so, but only upon a written document coming directly from the management, owners, or lawyers of SPR or SMI. I am still very prepared to do just this.

Tom Pabst wrote: > > Thanks Goy.....I thought that would be obvious....but maybe I was wrong. I thought the meaning in my question to Tim was obvious....but maybe I was wrong!

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> The "number" for Sears goes to a call directing program.....like many > companies use these days. It is not an answering machine and never has > been. Tim has been using the same "process" to call the track for as long > as he's been associated with SearsGroup. The message directs you to "dial > zero" for the operator's direction to your party if you don't know their > extension number (in which case you dial it yourself at anytime during the > message/greeting). Is this high tech stuff or something.....lol I don't > think so.

Gee thanks Tom, now thanks to you, we know how the phones at Sears work! Maybe you can come round and set my video up for me? It's pretty clear that Tim knows how to contact Steve - christ it was even to me! I just want to hear him say he can't get through on the phone or fax or by e or snail mail

Goy Larsen wrote:

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> > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > > > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > > > > Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as you know, > > > it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to Mr Page, I > > > cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? > > > > Why don't you just write to him then? > > Maybe he has ? :-)

Or, much more likely, doesn't want to?

Goy Larsen wrote:

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> > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > > > Goy Larsen wrote: > > > > > > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > > > > > > > Tim McArthur wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Tom, the number on the header of the memo is for SPR, but as you know, > > > > > it is a machine and unless i know the extension number to Mr Page, I > > > > > cant reach him. Can you help me out? Im only asking for 3 digits? > > > > > > > > Why don't you just write to him then? > > > > > > Maybe he has ? :-) > > > > Or, much more likely, doesn't want to? > > Since I have an advantage over you with Tim now being a part of "The > Pits", my "educated guess" is that you're wrong :-)

Goy For once, I'm glad to be wrong :) Cheers Gerry

Tim McArthur wrote:

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> > Simply put, I have no reason to. > > The letter addressed to me from Steve page clearly asks me to "cease > any unauthorized use of Sears Point Raceway images" and I have done > just that. I have still not been asked to remove Sears99v4 or to stop > the release of the soon-to-be released Sears97. > > I have always stated that if SPR or SMI wants me to remove Sears99 > from the web, I will do so, but only upon a written document coming > directly from the management, owners, or lawyers of SPR or SMI. I am > still very prepared to do just this.

Thanks Tim, and understood. Cheers Gerry