Re: N4-DEMO: My view...

On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 04:49:01 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> scribbled:

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>On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:58:54 +0100, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> and thats with a >>Celly 700 / 32mb V4500 /SB-live -setup. > >Ed...do yourself a huge favor and get some more RAM, at least another >32MB, if not more. > >~daxe

The '32mb' in that quoted line is the amount of video memory on his V4 4500 video card. :) -Slash -- -- -- -- "The people on the internet know more about what I am doing than I do. Like, they will say that I am going to be in this mall on this day and sure enough I am there." - Tori Amos, Dew Drop Inn Tour, 17-June-1996

In article <UpwV5.495$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> writes: >I also love the fact that the host can force drivers to only drive from >in-car _aswell_ as prohibithing them from turning smoke off - making sure >everyone drive under equal conditions. Wouldn't forcing everyone to have smoke place a graphics drain on some people's systems? That would drag down the quality of the whole race... Also, I've been in online N3 races where latency caused the other cars to 'appear' to keep crashing into the walls. Not exactly easy(or comforting) to see through all that smoke... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +45.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> GPL.. TPTCC2001 or Trans-Am anyone? :-) > I can't wait for N4 to be released so that some clever people can convert the GPL tracks and re design the cars so we can have an authentic TPTCC1967!!!!! All those Jags, Astons etc....!!!!!! Our very own Goodwood Revival!!

Challenging thought.... but since we haven't managed to change the car model for GPL yet (no need to convert tracks), I doubt somehow we'd be able to for N4. Using the "GPL" engine in a Nascar game doesn't make it any more editable than it is now (in GPL). Jan. =--- raja wrote...

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> > > GPL.. TPTCC2001 or Trans-Am anyone? :-) > > > I can't wait for N4 to be released so that some clever > people can convert the GPL tracks and re design the cars so > we can have an authentic TPTCC1967!!!!! All those Jags, > Astons etc....!!!!!! Our very own Goodwood Revival!

People have managed to re-design the F1 cars in GPL. Thats all that needs to be done in N$. OK, the handling won't be super-realistic, but it would still give a cool kind of atmosphere to have some of the old cars to race in. All that needs to be done is get GPL tracks working ( I am praying this can be done) and get some of the really talented people to turn their attention away from creating new Nascar models and creating old touring cars. I admit I know nothing about programming, but it seems that its all been done before except changing the driving model, whixh isn't really necessary. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I still think it would be really cool. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Challenging thought.... but since we haven't managed to change the carmodel > for GPL yet (no need to convert tracks), I doubt somehow we'd be able tofor

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> N4. Using the "GPL" engine in a Nascar game doesn't make it any more > editable than it is now (in GPL). > > Jan. > =--- > raja wrote... > > > > > GPL.. TPTCC2001 or Trans-Am anyone? :-) > > > > > I can't wait for N4 to be released so that some clever > > people can convert the GPL tracks and re design the cars so > > we can have an authentic TPTCC1967!!!!! All those Jags, > > Astons etc....!!!!!! Our very own Goodwood Revival! > > >

Well it's here!!! First of all.. hats of - yet again - to Papyrus.. What a gem this is going to be! N4 looks to be just what I expected from Papy; it's "clean", well made and with out a whole bunch of unessicary "junk". I love the way the car handles and cant wait to try this baby on a less banked track. You can really feel the car - both thru the wheel aswell as all the visual clues you get inside the cockpit. The GUI is clean and neat - just as one would expect. No annoying "pop-up" asking me if i really wanna do this or that like certain other "sims" we've seen this year. :-) All menues and info boxes are well made and I absolutly love the layout of it all.... right down to the "letterbox" format for the replays. You can really see that this is a "son of GPL". Force-feedback is excellent And the way it's implemented is really great. Btw, a little tip fo those of you who think the FFB-effects are "small"; try and reduce the steering ratio! Once you get it down to 14-15:1 you'll soon start to work up a sweat :-) Multiplayer look good.. but I'm willing to bet it will be alot better in the final product. I also love the fact that the host can force drivers to only drive from in-car _aswell_ as prohibithing them from turning smoke off - making sure everyone drive under equal conditions. Looks like they've also "finally" listen to reason and put the auto-chat keys to single keystorkes - no more CTRL-1 etc. But one this still remain... please remove that bit where you have to press enter after triggering an auto-chat - it only makes things more cumbersome and disturbing for the driver. A single keystoke shold do IMO. Same goes for the "black-boxes" btw... changing some of the setting before a pit-stop can be mighty frustrating at 150mph - when you have to fiddle thru a bunch of keystokes to get it right. Apart from this there's only a few things I think need to be improved over what we see in the demo, and I'm sure some of them have allready found their way into the beta's etc. I will however, mention them here.. just to be sure; 1. Framerate; the big "hog" in the demo... I dont know how the rest of you are doing.. but I for one get drops below 25FPS at places.. and thats with a Celly 700 / 32mb V4500 /SB-live -setup. I hope the frame-rate will be better in the final version as the code is improved.. but I must say that I'm "sacred" by the thought of how this title will run with 41 AIs... 2. To help the framerate, I'de like more options to tweak it...i.e the ability to turn more stuff off.. Things like horizon, skies, etc.are stuff one can do without if you got a "poor" system- (I really assume this will be in the final version) Another thing that worries me is the fact that I for one dont seem to see much difference between various resolutions.. 640x480 or 800x600 dont seem to matter much to me... I still get FPS drops. 3. Spotter-calls during multiplayer races: Its way to slow... the spotter need to react faster. The way things are now - he tells me about a car or accident way too late - sometimes 2-3 seconds after I've passed the incident or car. 4. An ability to choose/preset both qualifying and race-setups like in GPL. Self-explaining I guess. 5. More visible flag-signals. Called me old-fashioned... but I liked the way Nascar 2 (and 1?) dealth with this problem... A waving flag on the top of the screen was a good solution im my book... simple and very easy to spot. All in all... this gonna be one damn good sim.. and I'm sure as soon as "we" make more tracks for it - it will become a big "hit" on r.a.s - just like GPL.. TPTCC2001 or Trans-Am anyone? :-) Keep up the good works Papy.. and may we soon have a CART-sim of this caliber please? :) -- All the best, Ed Solheim The GPLEA

I have to agree on the graphics tweaking. Why didn't papy go with the same thing as GPL? GPL is very scaleable in the graphics department but then again maybe this is in the final and not in this demo but I doupt it. Everything else seems pretty good and the popup help is great. The garage menu looks strikingly familiar to GPL, good job, tons to mess around with. Vintook "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UpwV5.495$[email hidden]... > Well it's here!!! > > First of all.. hats of - yet again - to Papyrus.. What a gem this isgoing > to be! > > N4 looks to be just what I expected from Papy; it's "clean", well madeand

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> with out a whole bunch of unessicary "junk". > > I love the way the car handles and cant wait to try this baby on a less > banked track. > You can really feel the car - both thru the wheel aswell as all the visual > clues you get inside the cockpit. > > The GUI is clean and neat - just as one would expect. No annoying "pop-up" > asking me if i really wanna do this or that like certain other "sims"

we've

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> seen this year. :-) > > All menues and info boxes are well made and I absolutly love the layout of > it all.... right down to the "letterbox" format for the replays. You can > really see that this is a "son of GPL". > > Force-feedback is excellent And the way it's implemented is really great. > Btw, a little tip fo those of you who think the FFB-effects are "small";

try > and reduce the steering ratio! Once you get it down to 14-15:1 you'll soon > start to work up a sweat :-) > > Multiplayer look good.. but I'm willing to bet it will be alot better inthe > final product. > I also love the fact that the host can force drivers to only drive from > in-car _aswell_ as prohibithing them from turning smoke off - makingsure

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> everyone drive under equal conditions. > > Looks like they've also "finally" listen to reason and put the auto-chat > keys to single keystorkes - no more CTRL-1 etc. But one this still > remain... please remove that bit where you have to press enter after > triggering an auto-chat - it only makes things more cumbersome and > disturbing for the driver. A single keystoke shold do IMO. > > Same goes for the "black-boxes" btw... changing some of the setting

before > a pit-stop can be mighty frustrating at 150mph - when you have to fiddle > thru a bunch of keystokes to get it right. > > Apart from this there's only a few things I think need to be improved over > what we see in the demo, and I'm sure some of them have allready foundtheir > way into the beta's etc. I will however, mention them here.. just to be > sure; > > 1. Framerate; the big "hog" in the demo... I dont know how the rest of you > are doing.. but I for one get drops below 25FPS at places.. and thats witha > Celly 700 / 32mb V4500 /SB-live -setup. I hope the frame-rate will be > better in the final version as the code is improved.. but I must say that > I'm "sacred" by the thought of how this title will run with 41 AIs... > > 2. To help the framerate, I'de like more options to tweak it...i.e the > ability to turn more stuff off.. Things like horizon, skies, etc.arestuff > one can do without if you got a "poor" system- (I really assume this willbe

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> in the final version) Another thing that worries me is the fact that I for > one dont seem to see much difference between various resolutions.. 640x480 > or 800x600 dont seem to matter much to me... I still get FPS drops. > > 3. Spotter-calls during multiplayer races: Its way to slow... the spotter > need to react faster. The way things are now - he tells me about a car or > accident way too late - sometimes 2-3 seconds after I've passed the

incident > or car. > > 4. An ability to choose/preset both qualifying and race-setups like inGPL.

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> Self-explaining I guess. > > 5. More visible flag-signals. Called me old-fashioned... but I liked the > way Nascar 2 (and 1?) dealth with this problem... A waving flag on the top > of the screen was a good solution im my book... simple and very easy to > spot. > > All in all... this gonna be one damn good sim.. and I'm sure as soon as

"we" > make more tracks for it - it will become a big "hit" on r.a.s - justlike

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> GPL.. TPTCC2001 or Trans-Am anyone? :-) > > Keep up the good works Papy.. and may we soon have a CART-sim of this > caliber please? :) > > -- > All the best, > Ed Solheim > The GPLEA > >

True, but they haven't radically altered the basic shape of the car yet... It must have occurred to you that a DBR3 looks nothing like a modern stock car? Painting a Chevy Monte Carlo British Racing green and putting it on a converted Nordschleife is not going to look convincing, IMO. Jan. =--- raja wrote... > People have managed to re-design the F1 cars in GPL.<snip>

In article <svPV5.1245$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" writes: >> >> So then, why wouldn't everyone run WITHOUT the smoke? In most pickup >races, >> people don't care about a wreck - they just plow into it. So, using the >smoke >> as a 'warning' is negated...<g> > >Why do we cry out for better physics? > >Why do we wish for more realism? > >Why do we "demand" 6 degrees of freedom? > >Why do we still think anything thats not close to the "GPL-level" is >rubbish?

I'm not saying that the realism isn't wanted. Some people need to turn down graphics options to get an acceptable frame rate(at least online). *Forcing* someone to endure a graphics selection that slows down their system drags down the enjoyment factor. While they may LOVE to run full graphics in standalone mode, some will have to turn it down online... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +45.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <9091hi$d0s$[email hidden]>, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> writes: >Racing N3 Online sometimes I will turn off the smoke if the warp is really >bad. Reason being, I could be running behind a car that is warping and it >will constantly cause smoke to come out like if it was skidding. It really >isn't and driving behind a car with smoke popping up all the time makes it >very hard to hit braking and turning points. >Exactly! I mentioned that in another post. Plus - makes for nervous races cause you're never sure if there really IS an accident in front, or just a warping car... >I do not mind the forced smoke option, and I will run with smoke on 99.5% of >the time, but that is another reason why some people may turn it off. I'd run it offline all the time, assuming my system could handle it... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +45.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Which isn't surprising, as those two also came from Rowan. Stephen Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3a278c4c$[email hidden]...

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> BoB uses them, as did Mig Alley. > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > David Erb <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:oILV5.2981$[email hidden]... > > > > "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3a275e48$[email hidden]... > > > The biggest drain in the N4 demo is the mirror. It sucks my frame

rate > > into > > > the basement. Call me a heretic, but I wouldn't mind an alternativeto > a > > > mirror in a racing sim, something like the little dots in Flying Corps > > which > > > showed you the relative position of those nasty little Fokkers(oops... > > > pardon my language). They didn't intrude in the overall image, butwere

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> > > easy to monitor, and did nothing to the framerate. They would also > > > eliminate blind spots. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > These "little dots" are something I've been wishing for in GPL (or any > > online racer) for quite some time. They'd go a long way to compensating > for > > the restricted field of view and lack of peripheral vision that lead to > so > > many crashes. As you say there is little CPU demand created by the dots > and > > they are a tremendous aid to situational awareness. > > David > > > > > > > >

In article <0fLV5.1029$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> writes: >When you get involved on a multicar accident in a race... and you run with >smoke off - you do indeed have a huge advantage over those who have it >turned on. You can see everything crisp and clear while all the others see >a lot of smoke. That, imho, is far from "fair play". > So then, why wouldn't everyone run WITHOUT the smoke? In most pickup races, people don't care about a wreck - they just plow into it. So, using the smoke as a 'warning' is negated...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +45.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jaAV5.6243$[email hidden]... > I have to agree on the graphics tweaking. Why didn't papy go with the same > thing as GPL? GPL is very scaleable in the graphics department but then > again maybe this is in the final and not in this demo but I doupt it. > Everything else seems pretty good and the popup help is great. The garage > menu looks strikingly familiar to GPL, good job, tons to mess around with. > I found that the difference in framerate in GPL between running with all textures and running with almost no textures was remarkably small if one had a decent video card. The biggest drain in the N4 demo is the mirror. It sucks my frame rate into the basement. Call me a heretic, but I wouldn't mind an alternative to a mirror in a racing sim, something like the little dots in Flying Corps which showed you the relative position of those nasty little Fokkers (oops... pardon my language). They didn't intrude in the overall image, but were easy to monitor, and did nothing to the framerate. They would also eliminate blind spots. Stephen

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > Wouldn't forcing everyone to have smoke place a graphics drain on some > people's systems? Good point, but I think the smoke's pretty well done, it certainly doesn't eat processor/vid card power here, unlike in GPL. I think the point about forcing it is that everyone's at an equal disadvantage in gameplay terms. If you can turn it off then you'll avoid some accidents more easily than those with it on. So it's about leveling the playing field, not making people do something they don't want. I think :-) Andrew McP

On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:58:54 +0100, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote: > and thats with a >Celly 700 / 32mb V4500 /SB-live -setup. Ed...do yourself a huge favor and get some more RAM, at least another 32MB, if not more. ~daxe

[email hidden] (Ed Solheim) wrote in <UpwV5.495$[email hidden]>: >I also love the fact that the host can force drivers to only drive from >in-car _aswell_ as prohibithing them from turning smoke off - making sure >everyone drive under equal conditions. I agree with forcing in car view, but not forcing smoke on. I found I got very good fps(P3 550/TNT2) until I created a lot of smoke, then it dropped as low as 5fps! The smoke is a frame rate killer. Forcing everyone to run with it on would be like forcing everyone in gpl to run with their graphics options all cranked to 100% regardless of hardware. A big smoke cloud will make the car undrivable on a lot of systems. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -5.09 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

> 5. More visible flag-signals. Called me old-fashioned... but I liked the > way Nascar 2 (and 1?) dealth with this problem... A waving flag on the top > of the screen was a good solution im my book... simple and very easy to > spot. > There is something like it in N4. Where you see your speed and gear ('S' key) there is also a spot where it shows, green, yellow,ect.. If you turn it off though you are sol. -- Solo1 C-Modified (CASC-OR/BARC) http://www.barc-oc.com http://www.casc.on.ca

Ed, put a $ at the end of your autochat and you won't need to hit enter. Kyle Ed Solheim <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UpwV5.495$[email hidden]... Well it's here!!! Looks like they've also "finally" listen to reason and put the auto-chat keys to single keystorkes - no more CTRL-1 etc. But one this still remain... please remove that bit where you have to press enter after triggering an auto-chat - it only makes things more cumbersome and disturbing for the driver. A single keystoke shold do IMO.

"Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3a275e48$[email hidden]... > The biggest drain in the N4 demo is the mirror. It sucks my frame rateinto > the basement. Call me a heretic, but I wouldn't mind an alternative to a > mirror in a racing sim, something like the little dots in Flying Corpswhich

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> showed you the relative position of those nasty little Fokkers (oops... > pardon my language). They didn't intrude in the overall image, but were > easy to monitor, and did nothing to the framerate. They would also > eliminate blind spots. > > Stephen >

These "little dots" are something I've been wishing for in GPL (or any online racer) for quite some time. They'd go a long way to compensating for the restricted field of view and lack of peripheral vision that lead to so many crashes. As you say there is little CPU demand created by the dots and they are a tremendous aid to situational awareness. David

Jan Verschueren wrote: > > Challenging thought.... but since we haven't managed to change the car model > for GPL yet (no need to convert tracks), I doubt somehow we'd be able to for > N4. Using the "GPL" engine in a Nascar game doesn't make it any more > editable than it is now (in GPL). Oh I'd say a contemporary Nascar "stocker" has about the same handling characteristics as 60's Jaguar E-type or something similar :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Great tip!! Thanks Kyle! Ed_ "Kyle Thibodeaux"

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> Ed, put a $ at the end of your autochat and you won't need to hit enter. > > Kyle > > > Ed Solheim <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:UpwV5.495$[email hidden]... > Well it's here!!! > > > Looks like they've also "finally" listen to reason and put the auto-chat > keys to single keystorkes - no more CTRL-1 etc. But one this still > remain... please remove that bit where you have to press enter after > triggering an auto-chat - it only makes things more cumbersome and > disturbing for the driver. A single keystoke shold do IMO. > > > >

Don, When you get involved on a multicar accident in a race... and you run with smoke off - you do indeed have a huge advantage over those who have it turned on. You can see everything crisp and clear while all the others see a lot of smoke. That, imho, is far from "fair play". N4 seems to handle smoke alot better then GPL so I dont think this will be a big problem for ppl.with slower machines.. Besides... you can always join another server with "looser" restrictions :-) Ed_ "Don Scurlock" wrote: > >I also love the fact that the host can force drivers to only drive from > >in-car _aswell_ as prohibithing them from turning smoke off - makingsure > >everyone drive under equal conditions. > > I agree with forcing in car view, but not forcing smoke on. I found I gotvery > good fps(P3 550/TNT2) until I created a lot of smoke, then it dropped aslow as > 5fps! The smoke is a frame rate killer. Forcing everyone to run with it on > would be like forcing everyone in gpl to run with their graphics optionsall > cranked to 100% regardless of hardware. A big smoke cloud will make thecar > undrivable on a lot of systems.

Thats is correct.. Ed! :-) I got 128mb PC100 ram + 32mb Video memory. The other... Ed_ "rrevved" wrote:

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> > >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:58:54 +0100, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >> and thats with a > >>Celly 700 / 32mb V4500 /SB-live -setup. > > > >Ed...do yourself a huge favor and get some more RAM, at least another > >32MB, if not more. > > > >~daxe > > I believe the 32MB is the size of his video ram > on his Voodoo 4-4500. > >

On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:44:23 +0100, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Thats is correct.. Ed! :-) > >I got 128mb PC100 ram + 32mb Video memory. > > >The other... >Ed_

DOH! Well..get another 128mb, then. :o) ~daxe

"EldredP" writes: > > So then, why wouldn't everyone run WITHOUT the smoke? In most pickupraces, > people don't care about a wreck - they just plow into it. So, using thesmoke > as a 'warning' is negated...<g> Why do we cry out for better physics? Why do we wish for more realism? Why do we "demand" 6 degrees of freedom? Why do we still think anything thats not close to the "GPL-level" is rubbish? How do Bill Gates earn any money *at all*? - opps.... wrong discussion! :-) Ed_

Racing N3 Online sometimes I will turn off the smoke if the warp is really bad. Reason being, I could be running behind a car that is warping and it will constantly cause smoke to come out like if it was skidding. It really isn't and driving behind a car with smoke popping up all the time makes it very hard to hit braking and turning points. I do not mind the forced smoke option, and I will run with smoke on 99.5% of the time, but that is another reason why some people may turn it off. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <svPV5.1245$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >"EldredP" writes: > >> > >> So then, why wouldn't everyone run WITHOUT the smoke? In most pickup > >races, > >> people don't care about a wreck - they just plow into it. So, using

the

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> >smoke > >> as a 'warning' is negated...<g> > > > >Why do we cry out for better physics? > > > >Why do we wish for more realism? > > > >Why do we "demand" 6 degrees of freedom? > > > >Why do we still think anything thats not close to the "GPL-level" is > >rubbish? > > I'm not saying that the realism isn't wanted. Some people need to turn

down > graphics options to get an acceptable frame rate(at least online).*Forcing* > someone to endure a graphics selection that slows down their system dragsdown > the enjoyment factor. While they may LOVE to run full graphics instandalone

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> mode, some will have to turn it down online... > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +45.45 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Aaah, yeah. That was my point; such a good idea that it's been carried through from game to game. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3a279a71$[email hidden]... > Which isn't surprising, as those two also came from Rowan. > > Stephen > > Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3a278c4c$[email hidden]... > > BoB uses them, as did Mig Alley. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > David Erb <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:oILV5.2981$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:3a275e48$[email hidden]... > > > > The biggest drain in the N4 demo is the mirror. It sucks my frame > rate > > > into > > > > the basement. Call me a heretic, but I wouldn't mind an alternative > to > > a > > > > mirror in a racing sim, something like the little dots in Flying Corps > > > which > > > > showed you the relative position of those nasty little Fokkers > (oops... > > > > pardon my language). They didn't intrude in the overall image, but > were > > > > easy to monitor, and did nothing to the framerate. They would also > > > > eliminate blind spots. > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > These "little dots" are something I've been wishing for in GPL (or any > > > online racer) for quite some time. They'd go a long way to compensating > > for > > > the restricted field of view and lack of peripheral vision that lead to > > so > > > many crashes. As you say there is little CPU demand created by the dots > > and > > > they are a tremendous aid to situational awareness. > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm not saying that the realism isn't wanted. Some people need to turndown > graphics options to get an acceptable frame rate(at least online).*Forcing* > someone to endure a graphics selection that slows down their system dragsdown > the enjoyment factor. While they may LOVE to run full graphics instandalone > mode, some will have to turn it down online... Well, you can turn down all the other graphics and leave the smoke on. If you're in a race where cars are constantly wrecking than you may not want to be there to begin with <g>. Our league runs forced smoke and coincidentally, smoke took me out of a race last week. GRRRR. Had a great car too If it hits your framerate a bit, I can understand your frustration but with a good group of drivers that should be the exception rather than the norm and therefore have very little if any effect on your performance. Dave

> "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:UpwV5.495$[email hidden]... > > Looks like they've also "finally" listen to reason and put the auto-chat > > keys to single keystorkes - no more CTRL-1 etc. But one this still > > remain... please remove that bit where you have to press enter after > > triggering an auto-chat Go to the player info screen, and put a $ at the end of the chat messages you sent without needing to press enter. Randy

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) writes:

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>[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >> If it drains your system resources, it puts you at a disadvantage. > >But, as I think I said, the whole point is that unlike in GPL (where a lot >of smoke cripples my framerate) in N4 I don't find any appreciable >slowdown. I've "only" got 682Mhz and a V3 under the hood, and these days >you can't buy a PC that slow in the shops. Ok lots of people bought PC's >before yesterday, but... you get the idea :-) >

Considering how much of an FPS hit I took just selecting the F1 menu, I'm scared to see what the smoke would do... >And, of course, it is only an option. If a server forces it you don't have >to drive on that server. I'm guessing the only people who *won't* force it are the 'crash-fest' servers. It sounds like most league servers will... :( Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +44.17 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <L6aW5.301$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>So... what you're saying is that becuase some have a poor system they should >be allowed to "cheat"? > >That like allowing Minardi & Co. to use traction-control 'because theiy got >a poor engine.. :-) > >Anyway, I think this feature will most likely only be used for league races >anyway.. >But, nonetheless I really am glad to see it.

Cheat? Why, because you want an acceptable frame rate? I don't think so... I resent that. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +44.17 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <259W5.25701$[email hidden]>, "David Boothe" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> I've seen smoke that was created even with NO accidents(N3). Cars that >warp >> are seen by the system to be banging against the walls constantly. This >> creates smoke, even if the cars never really touch anything... > >I've seen that smoke many times, although its nothing like the smoke created >by an accident and even with my ancient computer, neither ever affects the >framerate. I enjoy the realism and added danger factor of the smoke. Forcing >it puts EVERYONE on a level, realistic race track. As I mentioned in my last >post, I just clipped a car in a wreck last week because I was blinded by the >smoke. For those that want to race with as much realism as possible, smoke >is the only way to go. If you don't like the realism, then you won't run in >a league that races with forced smoke. Our league runs with every realistic >option except for "player breakdowns" because we already have those... >they're called warp <G>. > >Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But for those that like >to be true to the word "simulator", I think the forced smoke and forced >cockpit are AWESOME and hope they continue to stay in future releases.

If I had an 800+MHz system, and a cable modem, I'd be all for using the smoke. However, with a 400MHZ system and a 56K modem, the smoke will likely screw up my online experience. Forcing something like that will keep some people from participating...which would suck. You'd have the 'option' of not running in leagues that use forced smoke, and be stuck with pick up races. That's not much of an option... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +44.17 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote... > <snip> > Considering how much of an FPS hit I took just selecting > the F1 menu, I'm scared to see what the smoke would do... F1 menu doesn't give me a hit at all (and if I remember correctly our systems are not that dissimilar) and I've just done some testing at Michigan with regard to the smoke... on average I lost about 7fps out of a framerate of about 34fps (800x600x16, game defaults for detail). But that's just me creating my own smoke to drive through, not a multicar pile-up, obviously. I have no explanation to offer as to why your system reacts differently unfortunately. > I'm guessing the only people who *won't* force it are the > 'crash-fest' servers. It sounds like most league servers > will... :( Look at it this way Eldred... you've got 'till February to sort it out one way or another. Cheers, Jan. =---

BoB uses them, as did Mig Alley. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- David Erb <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oILV5.2981$[email hidden]... > > "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3a275e48$[email hidden]... > > The biggest drain in the N4 demo is the mirror. It sucks my frame rate > into > > the basement. Call me a heretic, but I wouldn't mind an alternative to a > > mirror in a racing sim, something like the little dots in Flying Corps > which > > showed you the relative position of those nasty little Fokkers (oops... > > pardon my language). They didn't intrude in the overall image, but were > > easy to monitor, and did nothing to the framerate. They would also > > eliminate blind spots. > > > > Stephen > > > These "little dots" are something I've been wishing for in GPL (or any > online racer) for quite some time. They'd go a long way to compensating for > the restricted field of view and lack of peripheral vision that lead to so > many crashes. As you say there is little CPU demand created by the dots and > they are a tremendous aid to situational awareness. > David > > >

In article <t7WV5.23632$[email hidden]>, "David Boothe" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> I'm not saying that the realism isn't wanted. Some people need to turn >down >> graphics options to get an acceptable frame rate(at least online). >*Forcing* >> someone to endure a graphics selection that slows down their system drags >down >> the enjoyment factor. While they may LOVE to run full graphics in >standalone >> mode, some will have to turn it down online... > > >Well, you can turn down all the other graphics and leave the smoke on. If >you're in a race where cars are constantly wrecking than you may not want to >be there to begin with <g>. Our league runs forced smoke and coincidentally, >smoke took me out of a race last week. GRRRR. Had a great car too > > >If it hits your framerate a bit, I can understand your frustration but with >a good group of drivers that should be the exception rather than the norm >and therefore have very little if any effect on your performance. > >Dave

I've seen smoke that was created even with NO accidents(N3). Cars that warp are seen by the system to be banging against the walls constantly. This creates smoke, even if the cars never really touch anything... And turning down other graphics might remove your track reference markers. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +44.17 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) writes:

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>[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >> Wouldn't forcing everyone to have smoke place a graphics drain on some >> people's systems? > >Good point, but I think the smoke's pretty well done, it certainly doesn't >eat processor/vid card power here, unlike in GPL. I think the point about >forcing it is that everyone's at an equal disadvantage in gameplay terms. >If you can turn it off then you'll avoid some accidents more easily than >those with it on. So it's about leveling the playing field, not making >people do something they don't want. > >I think :-)

If it drains your system resources, it puts you at a disadvantage. In a multiplayer, it would have to either slow down everyone else's system(to keep everyone synchronized), or skip frames on your system(to keep up). If it skips frames on your system, your control inputs won't do what you expect. Think of warps in GPL. I've had more than one 'warp-induced' spin there... :( Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +44.17 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > If it drains your system resources, it puts you at a disadvantage. But, as I think I said, the whole point is that unlike in GPL (where a lot of smoke cripples my framerate) in N4 I don't find any appreciable slowdown. I've "only" got 682Mhz and a V3 under the hood, and these days you can't buy a PC that slow in the shops. Ok lots of people bought PC's before yesterday, but... you get the idea :-) And, of course, it is only an option. If a server forces it you don't have to drive on that server. Andrew McP

> >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > > I've seen smoke that was created even with NO accidents(N3). Cars thatwarp > are seen by the system to be banging against the walls constantly. This > creates smoke, even if the cars never really touch anything... I've seen that smoke many times, although its nothing like the smoke created by an accident and even with my ancient computer, neither ever affects the framerate. I enjoy the realism and added danger factor of the smoke. Forcing it puts EVERYONE on a level, realistic race track. As I mentioned in my last post, I just clipped a car in a wreck last week because I was blinded by the smoke. For those that want to race with as much realism as possible, smoke is the only way to go. If you don't like the realism, then you won't run in a league that races with forced smoke. Our league runs with every realistic option except for "player breakdowns" because we already have those... they're called warp <G>. Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But for those that like to be true to the word "simulator", I think the forced smoke and forced cockpit are AWESOME and hope they continue to stay in future releases. -- Take care, Dave Boothe ***************************************************** Edward Jones Investments #37 Ford Taurus Proud member of Ground Zero Motorsports The Pro Series http://www.theproseries.com

PS. I think they should block the "s" key to force others to race with no speedometer. I always use the tach in a race. I've sped on pit road on more than one occasion because of it <lol> but I like it to be as close as possible to the real thing. Dave

So... what you're saying is that becuase some have a poor system they should be allowed to "cheat"? That like allowing Minardi & Co. to use traction-control 'because theiy got a poor engine.. :-) Anyway, I think this feature will most likely only be used for league races anyway.. But, nonetheless I really am glad to see it. Ed_ EldredP wrote: > > > >> Wouldn't forcing everyone to have smoke place a graphics drain on some > >> people's systems? > > > >Good point, but I think the smoke's pretty well done, it certainlydoesn't

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> >eat processor/vid card power here, unlike in GPL. I think the point about > >forcing it is that everyone's at an equal disadvantage in gameplay terms. > >If you can turn it off then you'll avoid some accidents more easily than > >those with it on. So it's about leveling the playing field, not making > >people do something they don't want. > > > >I think :-) > > If it drains your system resources, it puts you at a disadvantage. In a > multiplayer, it would have to either slow down everyone else's system(to

keep > everyone synchronized), or skip frames on your system(to keep up). If itskips > frames on your system, your control inputs won't do what you expect.Think of

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> warps in GPL. I've had more than one 'warp-induced' spin there... :( > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +44.17 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes:

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>On 03 Dec 2000 05:30:57 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>Hehe...as soon as I win the Lotto... :) >> >>Eldred >>p.s. Actually, if I win the Lotto, I'm going racing for REAL...<g> > > >Ehh... don't :)

Hey, I didn't say I could *win*... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +44.17 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (Ed Solheim) wrote in <L6aW5.301$[email hidden]>: >So... what you're saying is that becuase some have a poor system >they should be allowed to "cheat"? You have a strange way of thinking Ed. > >That like allowing Minardi & Co. to use traction-control 'because >theiy got a poor engine.. :-) Now there's an idea! It would probably make a more interesting racing. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -5.09 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>EldredP wrote... >> <snip> >> Considering how much of an FPS hit I took just selecting >> the F1 menu, I'm scared to see what the smoke would do... > >F1 menu doesn't give me a hit at all (and if I remember correctly our >systems are not that dissimilar) and I've just done some testing at Michigan >with regard to the smoke... on average I lost about 7fps out of a framerate >of about 34fps (800x600x16, game defaults for detail). But that's just me >creating my own smoke to drive through, not a multicar pile-up, obviously. I >have no explanation to offer as to why your system reacts differently >unfortunately. >

Doesn't hit your system at all? WTF...? But then again, you have a faster system than me. Maybe there's a 'cut-off' point where it no longer makes a difference...

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>> I'm guessing the only people who *won't* force it are the >> 'crash-fest' servers. It sounds like most league servers >> will... :( > >Look at it this way Eldred... you've got 'till February to sort it out one >way or another. >

Hehe...as soon as I win the Lotto... :) Eldred p.s. Actually, if I win the Lotto, I'm going racing for REAL...<g> -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +44.17 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 03 Dec 2000 05:30:57 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >Hehe...as soon as I win the Lotto... :) > >Eldred >p.s. Actually, if I win the Lotto, I'm going racing for REAL...<g> Ehh... don't :) Andre