Papy wonder physics wasted on N4

Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. -- Rob Swindells // http://www.robswindells.com http://www.f1core.com // "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." ~Frank // Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:908rs4$vl2$[email hidden]... > I never got this, physics models can't be copied across formulae... > There's no way they used GPL as a base for physics and if they did, tellme > now as I don't ant to waste 5 hours downloading the damn thing. Depends what kind of physics model you have. If you have a psuodo-model, kinda like F12000 or the GP3 series (ohh hell, that will get the GP3 and F12000 fans going), then yeah, I guess it will be kinda hard to transfer across formulae. However, as far as I know, GPL physics are a subset of real life Newtonian physics, so if enough of the attributes of the cars components have been included in the physics calculations, then all you need to do is change the cars attributes from 67 GP spec to 2000 NASCAR spec. This is what the West Brothers are trying to achieve with WSC, if I remember correctly. They are hoping to allow people to create their own cars by entering the specifications of the components in. I hope everyone gets what I'm trying to get at. Gavin Thomas

I'm not a big NASCAR fan, but it could be argued that the physics were actually wasted on GPL since just about everyone that bought it is in this newsgroup, and it now sells for $3 at Staples. Who knows what would have happened if they used the game engine for a more mainstream title first? Tim On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:59:16 +0000, Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of >GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it >would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR >racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated >model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > >As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called.

Money. CART can't even get people to go the races let alone buy a sim. "Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > >

Sorry, I missed the other post before I posted mine. "Tom Oliver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:...

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> Money. CART can't even get people to go the races let alone buy a sim. > > "Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > > > -- > > Rob Swindells > > // > > http://www.robswindells.com > > http://www.f1core.com > > // > > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > > ~Frank > > // > > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > > > > > > >

Don't forget the trucks George.... and the BGN. Jan. ;-) =--- George M. Smiley wrote...

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> <snip> > If history holds to form, a 'Nascar Racing 4 Expansion > Pack' is next. > > - George > > >

Who says a CART sim isn't next? Michael K. Grandy Sr Proud Member of Precision Racing Professional Internet Race Team Member of Nass 2000 Pro Online Series Competitor in LikeReal LAN Tournaments Pro Division "Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. -- Rob Swindells // http://www.robswindells.com http://www.f1core.com // "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." ~Frank // Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?

It all comes down to one thing Rob... $$$$ There is more money to be made off a Nascar sim then any of the others mentioned. GPL2... I just dont see it ever happening, just look at the sales from GPL. Why would they want to make another financial flop (though I do agree it is the best sim on the market)? CART hasnt grown in popularity for years (even CART admits that publicly). IRL... well they just have NO popularity at all and again only go around in circles. At least Nacar visits 2 roadcourses a year eh?. I hope to see a modern day Trans-Am sim using physics of this calibur. Trans-Am is a great mix of stock-car and CART style racing. But again, the popularity just inst like NASCAR is it? "Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > >

It would be great if Papy would take a leaf out of the FPS book and release SDK's for the engine. So the mod makers would have an easier time of things. Although i can see that there may be licensing problems with auto racing that wouldnt apply to FPS'. I believe Chris and Tony West are looking at the feasibility of it and if it can be done would really extend these games. fingers crossed Shane Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > >

We live in hope. Well, I bloody well hope so anyway! Hopefully. Mike Grandy wrote:

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> Who says a CART sim isn't next? > > Michael K. Grandy Sr > > Proud Member of Precision Racing Professional Internet Race Team > > Member of Nass 2000 Pro Online Series > > Competitor in LikeReal LAN Tournaments Pro Division > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in > message news:[email hidden]...Well we all > knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? > Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's > GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a > sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ > sim. > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games > ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near > criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber > pants our size? > > >

-- Rob Swindells // http://www.robswindells.com http://www.f1core.com // "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." ~Frank // Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?

On Thu 30 Nov 2000 11:59:16p, Rob Swindells wrote: >Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of >GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim?<snip> 'Cause NASCAR (in America) and F1 (everywhere else) are the only things that really sell. How many companies recently have consistently made imaginative games? Looking Glass? Look what happened to them. Bloody sad state of affairs, but it's a fact. :-( -- David. (GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

>"Shane Lowry" <[email hidden]> wrote > It would be great if Papy would take a leaf out of the FPS book andrelease > SDK's for the engine. So the mod makers would have an easier time ofthings. They need to eat remember <g> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

yeah i know that frank ... but it works for all the FPS games. The biggest problem would probably be the difference in circulation and the licensing concerns. That bring to mind the encrypted dat files in N4 ... it could be quite likely that papy have had to do this so that we can't import GPL tracks. Hopefully not but we'll see. ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:62EV5.7025$i%[email hidden]...

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> >"Shane Lowry" <[email hidden]> wrote > > It would be great if Papy would take a leaf out of the FPS book and > release > > SDK's for the engine. So the mod makers would have an easier time of > things. > > They need to eat remember <g> > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

"Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Who says a CART sim isn't next? If history holds to form, a 'Nascar Racing 4 Expansion Pack' is next. - George

>"Shane Lowry" <[email hidden]> wrote > yeah i know that frank ... but it works for all the FPS games. FPS is fantasy, thus there is millions of possible game and game settings which leads to people actually buying them. But in the case of the GPL game engine, there isn't an infinite number of racing series in the world. > That bring to mind the encrypted dat files in N4 If they encrypt the .dat files in the final release of N4 it's the first step into digging their grave. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 00:27:15 GMT, "Tim McArthur" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >IRL... well they just have NO >popularity at all and again only go around in circles. At least Nacar visits >2 roadcourses a year eh?. CART isn't just ovals. Toronto and Vancouver are two Indycar road courses here in Canada.

I realize that and it wasnt what I was saying. Just that CART has not grown in popularity over the past few years. I personally love CART, just wish more people would as well. "Amp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 00:27:15 GMT, "Tim McArthur" > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >IRL... well they just have NO > >popularity at all and again only go around in circles. At least Nacarvisits > >2 roadcourses a year eh?. > > CART isn't just ovals. Toronto and Vancouver are two Indycar road > courses here in Canada.

> FPS is fantasy, thus there is millions of possible game and game settings > which leads to people actually buying them. But in the case of the GPLgame > engine, there isn't an infinite number of racing series in the world. yup exactly my point, luckily for us the West bros arent doing WSC for the money and as such are willing to make it extensible. So its feasible that the engine could simulate anything and we can look forward to running CART, V8 supercars and the other great series that havent had sufficient coverage lately Shane.

LOL and thus the reason he said IRL only goes in circles...NOT cart. JB "Amp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 00:27:15 GMT, "Tim McArthur" > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >IRL... well they just have NO > >popularity at all and again only go around in circles. At least Nacarvisits > >2 roadcourses a year eh?. > > CART isn't just ovals. Toronto and Vancouver are two Indycar road > courses here in Canada.

Only one? --- Joeri J. Cox European Racing League http://drive.to/erl "George M. Smiley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2cEV5.571$[email hidden]... > If history holds to form, a 'Nascar Racing 4 Expansion > Pack' is next.

On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 05:25:46 GMT, "Wosco" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >LOL and thus the reason he said IRL only goes in circles...NOT cart. > >JB Yea, yea, yea...that's why I cancelled the post. Unfortunately you saw it before it got cancelled.

Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> writes: > Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. I agree with you on most parts, but after testing the N4 demo for a while yesterday, I realized that the advanced physics put a real challenge into NASCAR. Driving through the turns and using the FF to put the wheel right, and feeling the understeer if I turn in too much, lovely. But I have to start practice Solitude for a GPL league race next sunday :) -- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

excellent point Rob, after about 10 laps at Michigan I thought.... what a waste. oh well. On the other hand F1CS2K will be out soon. Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > >

I never got this, physics models can't be copied across formulae... There's no way they used GPL as a base for physics and if they did, tell me now as I don't ant to waste 5 hours downloading the damn thing. Maybe they used the gpl engines, as in, basic game structure, graphics, modelling, but physics? Can't see how. Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > >

Hey GraDee, This is a common misconception. They did NOT use GPL physics. What they DID use was the physics engine that allowed GPL to produce such a revolutionary result of car handling. The basic GPL engine is a framework that holds in place a ton of numbers.(ANYONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M OFF BASE ON THIS!!!) The GPL engine then mixes those numbers to produce a realistic result. Now the numbers put in for GPL, and these are NOT arbitrary numbers, resulted in a car that has little downforce, high horsepower to weight, etc etc. Nascar 4 uses a modified version of GPL's engine to combine a TOTALLY different set of numbers. The tire grip, the Aero considerations, the car weights, driver placement, specific oval setup options not found in 1967 cars, on and on result in a car that exhibits completely different handling characteristics. However, you will find that technicques that work in GPL will likely be at least partially transferable to N4. I have found I have to unthink my FWD influenced spin recovery(too much of the STCC 2 demo lately) to recover the back end when it starts to slip away. If you have tried at least the Nascar Heat demo, you will have at least some partial basis to think of how N4 will handle. Certainly when compared to N2/99/3 the advances are tremendous. I do believe there will be quite a few fast N3 drivers who will be totally put off by N4's handling and driving characteristics. Others, will thrive with the added feedback of more physics modeling. dave henrie So you are NOT getting a 1967 F1 car with a roof. What you are getting is the 2nd generation of the most sophisticated consumer level racing sim software that has been developed to date. I will say there are several sim packages that probably model as many parameters as GPL/N4 but few have been able to rise to the 'completeness' of GPL's original formula. Now any moment David G Fisher will weigh in and tell me I'm all wrong so take this and any other comments with a health dose of skeptisism(spelling???) dave henrie "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:908rs4$vl2$[email hidden]... > I never got this, physics models can't be copied across formulae... > There's no way they used GPL as a base for physics and if they did, tellme

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> now as I don't ant to waste 5 hours downloading the damn thing. > > Maybe they used the gpl engines, as in, basic game structure, graphics, > modelling, but physics? Can't see how. > > > > > Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > > > -- > > Rob Swindells > > // > > http://www.robswindells.com > > http://www.f1core.com > > // > > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > > ~Frank > > // > > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > > > > > > >

On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:48:29 -0000, "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I never got this, physics models can't be copied across formulae... >There's no way they used GPL as a base for physics and if they did, tell me >now as I don't ant to waste 5 hours downloading the damn thing. The formulae stay the same, the detail level of formulas don't though, but that's beside the point. I happen to be creating a sim, and have working physics formulae; I've plugged in some of my 'well, how about a couple of hundred, ehm' digits in the start and the car was very very hard to handle. Then I got SCGT and plugged in some of their numbers and it suddenly handled a lot more like I saw in SCGT. Finally some dampers that worked! ;-) It's not the physics formulae, it's the numbers (damper values, intertiae, etc) that make the car drive good or bad, difficult or easy. Where simplifications come in, there things get ugly. The GPL physics are fine, just use Alison Hine's setups and things are already way simpler than the initial default setups. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 MarketGraph : http://www.marketgraph.nl Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Car simulation: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Hey Rob, I couldn't agree more. Same applies to the great Viper Racing physics model, a new an improved version of which was wasted on Nascar Heat. Sigh .... On a positive note, there are now some CART carsets and tracks for GP3. Unfortunately, they have not yet corrected the super-short GP3 braking distances, but hopefully that will come soon. Who knows, maybe we can get the old ICRA gang back together :). Chris Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well we all knew N4 was on the way with the brilliant physics model of > GPL, but why is it being wasted on yet another NASCAR sim? Surely it > would be put to better use in CART Racing 2, or a 1970's GPL2. NASCAR > racing will forever be about going around in circles; a sophisticated > model like this deserves to be implemented in a /racing/ sim. > > As usual, I blame the IRNLS... or whatever it's called. > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > >

"Shane Lowry" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Although i can see that there may be licensing problems with auto racing >that wouldnt apply to FPS'. Nope. You can put out whatever tools you want. What people create with it is their own business. I totally agree with your point though. The first sim-maker smart enought to license out their tools will make a killing, IMO. Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

On Sat, 2 Dec 2000, Joe62 wrote: ..... > I totally agree with your point though. The first sim-maker smart > enought to license out their tools will make a killing, IMO. > > Joe McGinn > _____________________ > Radical Entertainment The "physics model" (along with other necessary tools) that is used in NASCAR Silicon Motor Speedway <http://www.smsonline.com> was written by a small company, and is licensed...it can be licensed for other games. <shameless plug> If you haven't visited SMS recently, a new version of the software was installed a few weeks ago. A big improvement (imo)... -- Doug Douglas Milliken <[email hidden]> Milliken Research Associates Inc.