I guess Papy forgot to test Martinsville?

The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful and absurd it's not even worth listing them here. My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCAR title with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. I was wrong. And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have only tried a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has release-quality AI. Marc. -- **************************************************************************** Marc Collins [email hidden] Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? ****************************************************************************

It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful and > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCARtitle > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. I was > wrong. > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have onlytried > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has release-qualityAI. > > Marc. > > -- >**************************************************************************** > Marc Collins > [email hidden] > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > to take effect. Reboot now? >**************************************************************************** > > >

How many negative posts about N4 does this make Mark? Are you on a mission? Notify Papy about the problems or don't bother with the sim and go back to playing Heat. Your constant ranting and whinning is non-productive.Its a great sim and I enjoy it alot, it has its shortcomings as all new releases do, but not as many as that other release ! (Even after the Patch) Don't like it ? Don't play it ! That simple.

Do you have anything to say about what I said...or are you just concerned that I am asking a question or voicing an opinion? If it is the former, please tell us what you think of the Martinsville AI...or the other glaring AI problems in N4. I did not believe I would see the day that something this rough would come from Papy. If it is the latter, don't waste your breath (or typing). People who reply to messages about a specific topic with retorts that the person shouldn't comment or should stop complaining or should go write their own game software or should go play some other game are pedantic, undemocratic, bandwidth-wasting annoyances. If you don't have something specific to say--and--if you just don't like the original message, then ignore it. It's quite a simple process. Try it more often. Marc. "Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:964o7e$16r$[email hidden]... > How many negative posts about N4 does this make Mark? Are you on amission? > Notify Papy about the problems or don't bother with the sim and go back to > playing Heat. Your constant ranting and whinning is non-productive.Its a > great > sim and I enjoy it alot, it has its shortcomings as all new releases do,but > not as > many as that other release ! (Even after the Patch) Don't like it ? Don't > play it ! > That simple. > >

Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through the testing cracks? Marc. "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:964nro$1aac$[email hidden]... > It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > > The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentifuland > > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCAR > title > > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. Iwas

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > wrong. > > > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have only > tried > > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has release-quality > AI. > > > > Marc. > > > > -- > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Marc Collins > > [email hidden] > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > >

**************************************************************************** > > > > > > > >

Just time constraints.. Although Papy would know more about the details than I would Trust me, the patch will take care of alot of issues. I truely believe this sim when they are done will be the Best around. "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_9mh6.220582$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (25 lines)

> Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through the > testing cracks? > > Marc. > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:964nro$1aac$[email hidden]... > > It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > > > The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful > and > > > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCAR > > title > > > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. I > was > > > wrong. > > > > > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have only > > tried > > > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has

release-quality

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > AI. > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > -- > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > Marc Collins > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I doubt it slipped through the cracks... I think the real issue is that developers are having a hard time developing AI for a detailed 3D simulation. GPL was good, but couldn't even drive ovals. SCGT certainly had it's problems, and NH did as well. I think there are some AI issues that need to be worked out, and we will continue to see this since it is proving difficult for the programmers. You guys act as if this is all really easy stuff, but AI can be very complicated, so it's not a BUG I don't think, it's incomplete, because it had to ship someday. Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_9mh6.220582$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (25 lines)

> Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through the > testing cracks? > > Marc. > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:964nro$1aac$[email hidden]... > > It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > > > The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful > and > > > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCAR > > title > > > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. I > was > > > wrong. > > > > > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have only > > tried > > > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has

release-quality

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > AI. > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > -- > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > Marc Collins > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

It certainly has that potential. The basic platform is great....I am just a bit shocked that Papy would release something this "early" in the development process. I blabbered-off to the NH people about how it would never happen with N4. Everyone knew N4 would need patching and that it wouldn't be perfect, but this is a bit extreme in my judgement. Marc. "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:964ran$1k62$[email hidden]... > Just time constraints.. Although Papy would know more about the detailsthan > I would > > Trust me, the patch will take care of alot of issues. I truely believethis

Quoted text (18 lines)

> sim when they are done will be the Best around. > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_9mh6.220582$[email hidden]... > > Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through the > > testing cracks? > > > > Marc. > > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:964nro$1aac$[email hidden]... > > > It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > > > > The problems running a full field race at this track are so

plentiful > > and > > > > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release aNASCAR > > > title > > > > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI.I > > was > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I haveonly

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > tried > > > > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has > release-quality > > > AI. > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > > Marc Collins > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > > > > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Interesting suggestion... It would certainly go a long way to explain why the NH patch is taking so long. But it is worrisome if this is best AI all those great and experienced brains at Papy and MGI can come up with. I fiddled with the AI a bit in NL (to improve the Daytona port). I know it is very complicated. Marc. "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pimh6.337903$[email hidden]... > I doubt it slipped through the cracks... > > I think the real issue is that developers are having a hard timedeveloping

Quoted text (7 lines)

> AI for a detailed 3D simulation. GPL was good, but couldn't even drive > ovals. > > SCGT certainly had it's problems, and NH did as well. > > I think there are some AI issues that need to be worked out, and we will > continue to see this since it is proving difficult for the programmers.

You

Quoted text (19 lines)

> guys act as if this is all really easy stuff, but AI can be very > complicated, so it's not a BUG I don't think, it's incomplete, because it > had to ship someday. > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_9mh6.220582$[email hidden]... > > Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through the > > testing cracks? > > > > Marc. > > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:964nro$1aac$[email hidden]... > > > It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > > > > The problems running a full field race at this track are so

plentiful > > and > > > > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release aNASCAR > > > title > > > > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI.I > > was > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I haveonly

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > tried > > > > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has > release-quality > > > AI. > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > > Marc Collins > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > > > > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I just looked...and your point is not clear. I still believe that it is unreasonable to ask Papy to include a feature in a game that is essentially impossible--multiple processor support on an O/S that doesn't support multiple processors. Instead of calling the person a moron or telling them to shut up, I thought I would use a bit of sarcasm. What I said was: "Do we know of any program that takes advantage of multiple processors that doesn't run on a multiple-processor-enabled O/S?" Do you have an answer? Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? Why ask for something that is impossible and unheard of? I don't call that a straightforward question. There are enough problems with N4 that we don't need Papy going off on some quadruple PhD research project to figure out whether they can get multiple processor support into Win9x. Eric Busch gave the same answer to the question...albeit in a more straightforward manner. As for your request that I shut up: let me know when you are in a position to tell anyone, let alone me, to shut up. Before you answer, remember I am not your dog or your lackie. This is an international public forum. Marc. "OB1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Marc, you're an idiot. Take a look back at the thread titled "N4 - > Important Question". Re-read your response to some straightforward > questions the poster asked. > > Take some of your own medicine and shut up. > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:46:01 GMT, "Marc Collins" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Do you have anything to say about what I said...or are you just concerned > >that I am asking a question or voicing an opinion? If it is the former, > >please tell us what you think of the Martinsville AI...or the other

glaring > >AI problems in N4. I did not believe I would see the day that something > >this rough would come from Papy. > > > >If it is the latter, don't waste your breath (or typing). People whoreply > >to messages about a specific topic with retorts that the person shouldn't > >comment or should stop complaining or should go write their own game > >software or should go play some other game are pedantic, undemocratic, > >bandwidth-wasting annoyances. If you don't have something specific to > >say--and--if you just don't like the original message, then ignore it.It's

Quoted text (10 lines)

> >quite a simple process. Try it more often. > > > >Marc. > > > > > >"Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:964o7e$16r$[email hidden]... > >> How many negative posts about N4 does this make Mark? Are you on a > >mission? > >> Notify Papy about the problems or don't bother with the sim and go back

to > >> playing Heat. Your constant ranting and whinning is non-productive.Itsa > >> great > >> sim and I enjoy it alot, it has its shortcomings as all new releasesdo, > >but > >> not as > >> many as that other release ! (Even after the Patch) Don't like it ?Don't > >> play it ! > >> That simple. > >> > >> > > >

>I am fairly sure the game won't even run once it eventually installs. >What brain dead morons at Sierra released this game with this system? >Well, it's up to 56% now... >Marc. Hmmmmmmmmm...........Nuff said .

Ouch!! "Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:964tuk$30m$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > >I am fairly sure the game won't even run once it eventually installs. > > >What brain dead morons at Sierra released this game with this system? > >Well, it's up to 56% now... > > >Marc. > > > Hmmmmmmmmm...........Nuff said . > > >

>"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through the > testing cracks? There isn't any major AI problems at other tracks, just at Martinsville. As I would say, "shit happens". The fact that the AI is the most advanced in any racing sim _ever_ is enough to compensate the AI problem at Martinsville. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

>"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > I am just a bit shocked that Papy would release something this "early" inthe > development process. Where do you see such "early" things in Nascar Racing 4? It's probably the MOST completed software I have ever seen. The amount of gameplay and features is amazingly high. But hey, any software will have it's small problems and N4 isn't an exception. I don't know why you are shocked, Papyrus isn't God-like and everybody accepts some problems with shipping software. Like any other developer in the industry. Just remember GPL, N1, Icr2,N2,N3 out of the box. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > I did not believe I would see the day that something > this rough would come from Papy. Well you have a short memory. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Lest we forget that the programmers developing this stuff are not necessarily the most 'l33t' code bandits on the planet. There's bound to be bugs, unless someone decides to write the entire thing in assembler with innumerable debug runs throughout the process. ::) In article <Olmh6.220602$[email hidden]>, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Interesting suggestion... > > It would certainly go a long way to explain why the NH patch istaking so > long. But it is worrisome if this is best AI all those great and > experienced brains at Papy and MGI can come up with. > > I fiddled with the AI a bit in NL (to improve the Daytona port). Iknow it

Quoted text (11 lines)

> is very complicated. > > Marc. > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:pimh6.337903$[email hidden]... > > I doubt it slipped through the cracks... > > > > I think the real issue is that developers are having a hard time > developing > > AI for a detailed 3D simulation. GPL was good, but couldn't even

drive > > ovals. > > > > SCGT certainly had it's problems, and NH did as well. > > > > I think there are some AI issues that need to be worked out, and wewill > > continue to see this since it is proving difficult for theprogrammers. > You > > guys act as if this is all really easy stuff, but AI can be very > > complicated, so it's not a BUG I don't think, it's incomplete,because it > > had to ship someday. > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_9mh6.220582$[email hidden]... > > > Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slippedthrough the

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > > testing cracks? > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:964nro$1aac$[email hidden]... > > > > It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > > > > > The problems running a full field race at this track are so > plentiful > > > and > > > > > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > > > > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release

a > NASCAR > > > > title > > > > > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready torelease AI. > I > > > was > > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as Ihave

Quoted text (14 lines)

> only > > > > tried > > > > > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has > > release-quality > > > > AI. > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

************************************************************************ ****

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > > > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

************************************************************************ ****

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:55:02 -0600, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Just time constraints.. Although Papy would know more about the details than >I would > >Trust me, the patch will take care of alot of issues. I truely believe this >sim when they are done will be the Best around. Well, if MGI would get the Heat patch out it might just be the best around. I ran N4 and Heat back to back and I like the look and feel of Heat better. Just my opinion. -- Jagg

"Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:964o7e$16r$[email hidden]... > How many negative posts about N4 does this make Mark? Are you on amission? > Notify Papy about the problems or don't bother with the sim and go back to > playing Heat. Let me get this straight.....This newsgroup should be just for praising N4? Ok then , all complaints about poor AI, restriced Drivers view , slow frame rates and copy protection that makes it hard to run on more than just a few systems should be directed at Papy.If that is the case, you should rename this group "rec.praiseonly.N4" I don't see where Mark is constantly bashing N4 , in fact all of his previous posts have talked about flaws of NH. I think he has hit it square on the nose. Both of these titles have problems. It just seems some people find it impossible to believe that Papy could ever not be top dog in simulators. Seems that MGI and Papy both have good simulators. Getting anyone to agree with that is the problem. Brad Coon

Exactly--I don't remember any such problems with GPL out of the box. That was the most impressive piece of testing and "finishdness" I can remember. Lots has been added and improved since, but it did what said it would do on the outside of the box back in '98. Marc. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vmoh6.9796$[email hidden]... > >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I am just a bit shocked that Papy would release something this "early"in > the > > development process. > > > Where do you see such "early" things in Nascar Racing 4? It's probablythe > MOST completed software I have ever seen. The amount of gameplay and > features is amazingly high. But hey, any software will have it's small > problems and N4 isn't an exception. I don't know why you are shocked, > Papyrus isn't God-like and everybody accepts some problems with shipping > software. Like any other developer in the industry. Just remember GPL,N1,

Quoted text (14 lines)

> Icr2,N2,N3 out of the box. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

The AI act like no one else is on the track during practise at EVERY track on my copy of N4. As soon as a cautionary incident occurs, however minor, you end up with a catastrophe of the entire field in a huge pile (OK, that's a little exaggerated, but it's close to that). Yours doesn't do this? Marc. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zkoh6.9795$[email hidden]... > >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through the > > testing cracks? > > There isn't any major AI problems at other tracks, just at Martinsville.As

Quoted text (19 lines)

> I would say, "shit happens". The fact that the AI is the most advanced in > any racing sim _ever_ is enough to compensate the AI problem at > Martinsville. > > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Why? Marc. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GKoh6.9804$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (18 lines)

> "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I did not believe I would see the day that something > > this rough would come from Papy. > > Well you have a short memory. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Thanks for having a brain, Brad. I like both HN and N4 generally. My biggest problem with NH was that it was obviously released far before its time. The basic guts of it are pretty impressive. Unfortunately, remembering GPL, I blabbered my head off about how Papy would never release N4 in a state that you couldn't have a simple race at a track without being treated like a pinball. Hopefully it is just Martinsville and some switch they forgot to put on during practise mode, but even still--how did that get past basic testing? Marc. "Brad Coon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mbwh6.887$[email hidden]... > > "Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:964o7e$16r$[email hidden]... > > How many negative posts about N4 does this make Mark? Are you on a > mission? > > Notify Papy about the problems or don't bother with the sim and go backto > > playing Heat. > > Let me get this straight.....This newsgroup should be just forpraising > N4? Ok then , all complaints about poor AI, restriced Drivers view , slow > frame rates and copy protection that makes it hard to run on more thanjust

Quoted text (13 lines)

> a few systems should be directed at Papy.If that is the case, you should > rename this group "rec.praiseonly.N4" > I don't see where Mark is constantly bashing N4 , in fact all of his > previous posts have talked about flaws of NH. I think he has hit it square > on the nose. Both of these titles have problems. It just seems some people > find it impossible to believe that Papy could ever not be top dog in > simulators. Seems that MGI and Papy both have good simulators. Getting > anyone to agree with that is the problem. > > Brad Coon > > >

Driver Restricted View? The cockpit View is realistic, if you do not want to use it, they added in other views that you can use. How can you complain about a view when the game company added it in because it is realistic? I can see your game review now.. "Even though there are many views in N4, I am going to mark them down because they also added in a realistic view. I know that I do not have to use it, but just it being there is worth a mark down in points." "Brad Coon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mbwh6.887$[email hidden]... > > "Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:964o7e$16r$[email hidden]... > > How many negative posts about N4 does this make Mark? Are you on a > mission? > > Notify Papy about the problems or don't bother with the sim and go backto > > playing Heat. > > Let me get this straight.....This newsgroup should be just forpraising > N4? Ok then , all complaints about poor AI, restriced Drivers view , slow

The point that several of us are making isn't that complicated, Cliff. Even though the view on your screen in cockpit view may be exactly what you would see sitting in a WC car parked at the track, it doesn't translate to the best view to use in a computer simulation. Try steering around cars in the pits on a curved pit lane...I don't want to drive like an asshole ploughing into other cars on pit lane because I can't tilt my head a few degrees to look around the A pillar. Having an option to turn my head almost 90 degrees--and only that amount--is a bit helpful, but is very disorienting if you are turning at the same time. That is not realistic. No WC driver has that situation in the real car in the real race. Interestingly, we don't have to either. By the way, you won't find a bigger proponent of in-car cockpit view sim. racing than me. I have never used anything but. It doesn't mean what we have in N4 is safe (for clean racing), useful, or optimal. Marc. "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:966i6l$sa6$[email hidden]... > Driver Restricted View? The cockpit View is realistic, if you do not want > to use it, they added in other views that you can use. > > How can you complain about a view when the game company added it inbecause

Quoted text (18 lines)

> it is realistic? > > I can see your game review now.. > "Even though there are many views in N4, I am going to mark them down > because they also added in a realistic view. I know that I do not have to > use it, but just it being there is worth a mark down in points." > > > > > "Brad Coon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Mbwh6.887$[email hidden]... > > > > "Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:964o7e$16r$[email hidden]... > > > How many negative posts about N4 does this make Mark? Are you on a > > mission? > > > Notify Papy about the problems or don't bother with the sim and go

back > to > > > playing Heat. > > > > Let me get this straight.....This newsgroup should be just for > praising > > N4? Ok then , all complaints about poor AI, restriced Drivers view ,slow > > >

I guess that may be a problem for some people, I but haven't raced the AI since the NROS was launched and I don't have any plans to race the AI in the future. I'm strictly into the multiplayer racing. No matter how much time and testing they put into the AI, they will never be able to make them act and react like a human driver. On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:46:42 GMT, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful and >absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > >My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCAR title >with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. I was >wrong. > >And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have only tried >a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has release-quality AI. > >Marc.

Kyle Langston __________________ [email hidden]

>"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > Exactly--I don't remember any such problems with GPL out of the box. LMAO it needed two patches, beta unsupported fixes and tons of third-party stuff to make it how it is presently. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Frank, I agree 100% Yes, there are a few issues. I'm currently being bit by the hosting/dual-NIC bug and I can't run a dedicated server, but N4 is by far the most polished simulator I've seen out of the box yet. And I've got about 20 of them sitting on the shelf... -Larry "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vmoh6.9796$[email hidden]... > >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I am just a bit shocked that Papy would release something this "early"in > the > > development process. > > > Where do you see such "early" things in Nascar Racing 4? It's probablythe > MOST completed software I have ever seen. The amount of gameplay and > features is amazingly high. But hey, any software will have it's small > problems and N4 isn't an exception. I don't know why you are shocked, > Papyrus isn't God-like and everybody accepts some problems with shipping > software. Like any other developer in the industry. Just remember GPL,N1,

Quoted text (14 lines)

> Icr2,N2,N3 out of the box. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Are we even SURE that there IS a second NH patch coming? Viper Racing got exactly one patch. There never were any add-on packs. And this was a top-notch simulator! Same development team is doing Nascar Heat. I think it's more the publisher they use, not the development team, though... -Larry "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Olmh6.220602$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Interesting suggestion... > > It would certainly go a long way to explain why the NH patch is taking so > long. But it is worrisome if this is best AI all those great and > experienced brains at Papy and MGI can come up with. > > I fiddled with the AI a bit in NL (to improve the Daytona port). I know

it

Quoted text (20 lines)

> is very complicated. > > Marc. > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:pimh6.337903$[email hidden]... > > I doubt it slipped through the cracks... > > > > I think the real issue is that developers are having a hard time > developing > > AI for a detailed 3D simulation. GPL was good, but couldn't even drive > > ovals. > > > > SCGT certainly had it's problems, and NH did as well. > > > > I think there are some AI issues that need to be worked out, and we will > > continue to see this since it is proving difficult for the programmers. > You > > guys act as if this is all really easy stuff, but AI can be very > > complicated, so it's not a BUG I don't think, it's incomplete, because

it > > had to ship someday. > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_9mh6.220582$[email hidden]... > > > Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped throughthe

Quoted text (20 lines)

> > > testing cracks? > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:964nro$1aac$[email hidden]... > > > > It is a problem that is definately known about by Papy. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Shlh6.222040$[email hidden]... > > > > > The problems running a full field race at this track are so > plentiful > > > and > > > > > absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > > > > > My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a > NASCAR > > > > title > > > > > with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release

AI.

Quoted text (19 lines)

> I > > > was > > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have > only > > > > tried > > > > > a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has > > release-quality > > > > AI. > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > > > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

****************************************************************************

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I would have to agree with Marc about GPL (not N4 cause he whines too much about it). When GPL was released I would say it was pretty much bug free. Granted there's been allot of add-ons for it and a patch but just running the game originally was great. I believe the only thing the patch really did was add FF, otherwise it didn't really do too much. GPL was the most perfect racing simulation right out of the box. Vintook "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BmDh6.10218$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (21 lines)

> >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Exactly--I don't remember any such problems with GPL out of the box. > > > LMAO it needed two patches, beta unsupported fixes and tons of third-party > stuff to make it how it is presently. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Mine sure does. It's pretty funny actually, watching these cars pile into the heap, one after another, after another....... "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0Nxh6.220851$[email hidden]... > The AI act like no one else is on the track during practise at EVERY track > on my copy of N4. As soon as a cautionary incident occurs, however minor, > you end up with a catastrophe of the entire field in a huge pile (OK,that's

Quoted text (8 lines)

> a little exaggerated, but it's close to that). Yours doesn't do this? > > Marc. > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:zkoh6.9795$[email hidden]... > > >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > Any ideas how it (and problems at many other tracks) slipped through

the > > > testing cracks? > > > > There isn't any major AI problems at other tracks, just at Martinsville. > As > > I would say, "shit happens". The fact that the AI is the most advancedin

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > any racing sim _ever_ is enough to compensate the AI problem at > > Martinsville. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise

how > > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > > >

We're not talking about how it is now, with FFB, D3D, OpenGL, upgraded graphics, sounds, etc. We were talking about whether it delivered what was advertised on the outside of the box. It did. You got fun racing against the AI at every track in every car...with no significant problems whatsoever. If I am forgetting something, please remind me. Marc. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BmDh6.10218$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (21 lines)

> >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Exactly--I don't remember any such problems with GPL out of the box. > > > LMAO it needed two patches, beta unsupported fixes and tons of third-party > stuff to make it how it is presently. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Only difference I can think of, is GPL of course had far fewer cars, and the nature of that type of racing the cars got pretty spread out. In simulating Nascar racing, there are of course more cars,and they run closer together for a longer period of time. I imagine programming the ai in those circumstances, with all the physics involved including the 6dof, pitting requirements, etc, is quite a task. I feel confident though they will only get better through patches- Papy has never been one to turn it's head on issues they can address, and I don't think they will now. -- Don Burnette "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NKJh6.227383$[email hidden]... > We're not talking about how it is now, with FFB, D3D, OpenGL, upgraded > graphics, sounds, etc. We were talking about whether it delivered what was > advertised on the outside of the box. It did. You got fun racing against > the AI at every track in every car...with no significant problems > whatsoever. If I am forgetting something, please remind me. > > Marc. > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BmDh6.10218$[email hidden]... > > >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > Exactly--I don't remember any such problems with GPL out of the box. > > > > > > LMAO it needed two patches, beta unsupported fixes and tons of third-party > > stuff to make it how it is presently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > > >

When there is a decent percentage of online participants who can drive around a track, let alone race at one, I will join your cause. So long as that percentage, from my N3 experiences, hovers around 2 or 3%, I will have to put up the AI for at least some of my sim racing. Marc. "Kyle Langston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> I guess that may be a problem for some people, I but haven't raced the > > AI since the NROS was launched and I don't have any plans to race the > AI in the future. I'm strictly into the multiplayer racing. No > matter how much time and testing they put into the AI, they will never > be able to make them act and react like a human driver. > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:46:42 GMT, "Marc Collins" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful and > >absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > >My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCAR

title > >with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. Iwas > >wrong. > > > >And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have onlytried > >a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has release-qualityAI.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > >Marc. > > > Kyle Langston > __________________ > [email hidden]

I think pick up races in general will most always be this way, at least a good part of them. League play is where online sim racing really shines, running with the same group week in and week out, getting used to each others driving style. It can be very rewarding. -- Don Burnette "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jo%h6.229730$[email hidden]... > When there is a decent percentage of online participants who can drive > around a track, let alone race at one, I will join your cause. So long as > that percentage, from my N3 experiences, hovers around 2 or 3%, I will have > to put up the AI for at least some of my sim racing. > > Marc. > > "Kyle Langston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I guess that may be a problem for some people, I but haven't raced the > > > > AI since the NROS was launched and I don't have any plans to race the > > AI in the future. I'm strictly into the multiplayer racing. No > > matter how much time and testing they put into the AI, they will never > > be able to make them act and react like a human driver. > > > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:46:42 GMT, "Marc Collins" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful and > > >absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > >My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a NASCAR > title > > >with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. I > was > > >wrong. > > > > > >And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have only > tried > > >a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has release-quality > AI. > > > > > >Marc. > > > > > > Kyle Langston > > __________________ > > [email hidden] > >

I agree 100%. I wish the "rest of my life" left me the regular time to commit to a league. Marc. "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:av%h6.273098$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> I think pick up races in general will most always be this way, at least a > good part of them. League play is where online sim racing really shines, > running with the same group week in and week out, getting used to each > others driving style. It can be very rewarding. > > -- > Don Burnette > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jo%h6.229730$[email hidden]... > > When there is a decent percentage of online participants who can drive > > around a track, let alone race at one, I will join your cause. So long

as

Quoted text (23 lines)

> > that percentage, from my N3 experiences, hovers around 2 or 3%, I will > have > > to put up the AI for at least some of my sim racing. > > > > Marc. > > > > "Kyle Langston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > I guess that may be a problem for some people, I but haven't raced the > > > > > > AI since the NROS was launched and I don't have any plans to race the > > > AI in the future. I'm strictly into the multiplayer racing. No > > > matter how much time and testing they put into the AI, they will never > > > be able to make them act and react like a human driver. > > > > > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:46:42 GMT, "Marc Collins" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful > and > > > >absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > > >My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a

NASCAR > > title > > > >with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI.I > > was > > > >wrong. > > > > > > > >And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I haveonly

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > tried > > > >a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has > release-quality > > AI. > > > > > > > >Marc. > > > > > > > > > Kyle Langston > > > __________________ > > > [email hidden] > > > > > >

Lol, yeah that is a drawback. I don't run in as many leagues as I used to, time just seems to keep getting shorter on supply. -- Don Burnette "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_i2i6.109396$[email hidden]... > I agree 100%. I wish the "rest of my life" left me the regular time to > commit to a league. > > Marc. > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:av%h6.273098$[email hidden]... > > I think pick up races in general will most always be this way, at least a > > good part of them. League play is where online sim racing really shines, > > running with the same group week in and week out, getting used to each > > others driving style. It can be very rewarding. > > > > -- > > Don Burnette > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:jo%h6.229730$[email hidden]... > > > When there is a decent percentage of online participants who can drive > > > around a track, let alone race at one, I will join your cause. So long > as > > > that percentage, from my N3 experiences, hovers around 2 or 3%, I will > > have > > > to put up the AI for at least some of my sim racing. > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "Kyle Langston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > I guess that may be a problem for some people, I but haven't raced the > > > > > > > > AI since the NROS was launched and I don't have any plans to race the > > > > AI in the future. I'm strictly into the multiplayer racing. No > > > > matter how much time and testing they put into the AI, they will never > > > > be able to make them act and react like a human driver. > > > > > > > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:46:42 GMT, "Marc Collins" > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > >The problems running a full field race at this track are so plentiful > > and > > > > >absurd it's not even worth listing them here. > > > > > > > > > >My apologies to the NH crew. I said Papy would never release a > NASCAR > > > title > > > > >with ludicrous, obviously untested or far from ready to release AI. > I > > > was > > > > >wrong. > > > > > > > > > >And Martinsville may be the worst example (I don't know as I have > only > > > tried > > > > >a few tracks), but I haven't seen any track yet that has > > release-quality > > > AI. > > > > > > > > > >Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kyle Langston > > > > __________________ > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > > >