N4 cockpit view is too obstructed.

I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better to me too). In N4 the left vertical windshield frame obstructs the view of upcoming corners too much. I have a Mercury Sable (pretty much the same as a Ford Taurus) and the view is a lot bigger than the one in N4 (also in N4 it feels like I'm sitting too far back). Just hope MGI gets a good patch out for Heat soon to make it the great sim it deserves to be. -- Jagg

I had a strong dislike for the cockpit view when I first got the game, and said so here. However, now I'm used to it and it does not bother me, in fact I kinda like it because I know it is realistic. -Tony- Tim O wrote:

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> You do sit further back in a Winston Cup car than you do in your > street version, so the dash perspective is correct. I agree with you > that the view doesn't work well, though. > I think cockpit transparency in the style of Red Baron 3D or X-Plane > would be a great solution to keeping an accurate perspective, but > allowing the situational awareness that is present in a real car. > > Tim > > On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:26:11 GMT, [email hidden] (Jagg) wrote: > > >I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running > >N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my > >conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better > >to me too). In N4 the left vertical windshield frame obstructs the > >view of upcoming corners too much. I have a Mercury Sable (pretty much > >the same as a Ford Taurus) and the view is a lot bigger than the one > >in N4 (also in N4 it feels like I'm sitting too far back). Just hope > >MGI gets a good patch out for Heat soon to make it the great sim it > >deserves to be.

I would agree... matter of fact... I have been racing the roof cam to try to get use to it :( Another thing that I hate is that the track seems to be very narrow i.e. flat part of the track coming out of the pits... but go what the replay of your car leaving the pits... it looks like you have tons of room! maybe it is just my eyes... I believe that it was daytona that I notice this on. "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running > N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my > conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better > to me too). In N4 the left vertical windshield frame obstructs the > view of upcoming corners too much. I have a Mercury Sable (pretty much > the same as a Ford Taurus) and the view is a lot bigger than the one > in N4 (also in N4 it feels like I'm sitting too far back). Just hope > MGI gets a good patch out for Heat soon to make it the great sim it > deserves to be. > -- > Jagg

>"Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote > I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running > N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my > conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better > to me too). Your real-life car can't compare to those cars. It's 0% Stock, totally modified from scratch. The drivers sit at a totally different place, and the car itself is absolutely different from your car. I don't care what sim gives me the biggest view, I want the sim that gives me the most realistic view. And be sure that you don't see much when you sit in a NASCAR stockcar. Nascar Racing 4 is dead-on when it comes to the cockpit. If you don't like it, don't race a stock-car in real-life as you won't see much either :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

I agree with the NH vs. N4 view issue, but remember that a NASCAR racing car has about as much in common with your Taurus/Sable as .... I am not sure...but they have nothing in common. The current NASCAR racing machines are not "stock" cars. Marc. "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running > N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my > conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better > to me too). In N4 the left vertical windshield frame obstructs the > view of upcoming corners too much. I have a Mercury Sable (pretty much > the same as a Ford Taurus) and the view is a lot bigger than the one > in N4 (also in N4 it feels like I'm sitting too far back). Just hope > MGI gets a good patch out for Heat soon to make it the great sim it > deserves to be. > -- > Jagg

Looking at the incar wrecks of the Tony Stewart melee.... you'll probably see the incar view of N4 is very close to right. dave henrie "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running > N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my > conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (

You do sit further back in a Winston Cup car than you do in your street version, so the dash perspective is correct. I agree with you that the view doesn't work well, though. I think cockpit transparency in the style of Red Baron 3D or X-Plane would be a great solution to keeping an accurate perspective, but allowing the situational awareness that is present in a real car. Tim On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:26:11 GMT, [email hidden] (Jagg) wrote:

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>I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running >N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my >conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better >to me too). In N4 the left vertical windshield frame obstructs the >view of upcoming corners too much. I have a Mercury Sable (pretty much >the same as a Ford Taurus) and the view is a lot bigger than the one >in N4 (also in N4 it feels like I'm sitting too far back). Just hope >MGI gets a good patch out for Heat soon to make it the great sim it >deserves to be.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:26:02 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Your real-life car can't compare to those cars. It's 0% Stock, totally >modified from scratch. The drivers sit at a totally different place, and the >car itself is absolutely different from your car. I don't care what sim >gives me the biggest view, I want the sim that gives me the most realistic >view. And be sure that you don't see much when you sit in a NASCAR >stockcar. The frame is basically the same, no? So N3 and Heat have it wrong but N4 doesn't? I'll believe you if you show me some photos taken from the drivers position with a wide angle lense. Until then, I don't. -- Jagg

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:33:24 GMT, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I agree with the NH vs. N4 view issue, but remember that a NASCAR racing car >has about as much in common with your Taurus/Sable as .... I am not >sure...but they have nothing in common. The current NASCAR racing machines >are not "stock" cars. But the body is the same shape. Therefore; the view would be the same. -- Jagg

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:14:57 -0800, Tony Jester <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I had a strong dislike for the cockpit view when I first got the game, and >said so here. However, now I'm used to it and it does not bother me, in >fact I kinda like it because I know it is realistic. Well, I'm sure I will get used to it too. :-) I just like the Nascar Heat view much better. -- Jagg

You forget that human eyes have periferal vision and does limit us to the game and tv camera views. I think the game should have had a bit more room for vision. However I too am used to the view and i barely even notice it. Jack Smash p.s. our league(www.nnascar-racing.com) has retired the #3 and have Dale Earnhardt listed as the driver in that spot. I think we should retire the #3 community wide. I wasnt an Earnhardt fan but I did respect him. I'll bet if you asked Dale Jr. right now where he finished, he probably couldnt tell you. My wishes and prayers go out to the Earnhardt family and the entire motorsports community. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_S1k6.442550$[email hidden]...

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> Looking at the incar wrecks of the Tony Stewart melee.... > you'll probably see the incar view of N4 is very close to right. > dave henrie > "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running > > N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my > > conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view ( >

>"Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote > But the body is the same shape. Therefore; the view would be the same. The body is anything but a stock Taurus. I never seen a 2-door Taurus first of all, secondly it's very, very different in terms of the seat position, hood lenght, windshield position, pillar position, etc... ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

>"Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote > The frame is basically the same, no? So N3 and Heat have it wrong but > N4 doesn't? I'll believe you if you show me some photos taken from the > drivers position with a wide angle lense. Until then, I don't. Everybody here knows that the N4 cockpit is dead-on like reality. It's normal to assume that it's not correct in N3, as it used a 2d-layered cockpit which is very restrictive in terms of what Papyrus could do in realism. Nascar Heat meanwhile has a slightly different cockpit from reality but is still not totally unrealistic. They also chosen (pure development choice) to put the camera a little closer to the dashboard (and not so where the driver's eye is) and flatten a little their view angle. It's not quite as wide as in N4. That's not really a good or bad thing, just less realistic but perhaps a better view. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

I agree with all you said. (I honestly thought the same thing the first time I loaded N4 without anyone mentioning it). "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better to me too). In N4 the left vertical windshield frame obstructs the view of upcoming corners too much. I have a Mercury Sable (pretty much the same as a Ford Taurus) and the view is a lot bigger than the one in N4 (also in N4 it feels like I'm sitting too far back). Just hope MGI gets a good patch out for Heat soon to make it the great sim it deserves to be. -- Jagg

This issue gets debated on the flight sim groups all the time - no matter how 'realistic' the view is, you are still forced to look at it through a 17" square or however big your monitor is, without the advantage of peripheral vision. To compensate for this, the other 'non-realistic' views are deemed acceptable. As for chase view, while I think it detracts from the true driving experience and I personally would never use it, I have no problem driving against people who use it. -Phasor "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:14:57 -0800, Tony Jester <[email hidden]> > thus spoke: > > >I had a strong dislike for the cockpit view when I first got the game,and

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> >said so here. However, now I'm used to it and it does not bother me, in > >fact I kinda like it because I know it is realistic. > > Well, I'm sure I will get used to it too. :-) > I just like the Nascar Heat view much better. > -- > Jagg

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:56:19 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >The body is anything but a stock Taurus. I never seen a 2-door Taurus first >of all, secondly it's very, very different in terms of the seat position, >hood lenght, windshield position, pillar position, etc... ;-) Well, I look at my '94 Sable and it looks just like the Taurus Nascar - with four doors though. Height from hood to roof should be the same. Someone give me the dimensions of the Nascar Taurus and I will go measure mine. :-) -- Jagg

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:40:03 GMT, "Phasor" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >This issue gets debated on the flight sim groups all the time - no matter >how 'realistic' the view is, you are still forced to look at it through a >17" square or however big your monitor is, without the advantage of >peripheral vision. To compensate for this, the other 'non-realistic' views >are deemed acceptable. I agree. People always say that or this is realistic but don't take into account the lack of situational awareness and how we on computers need deviations from reality to compensate for it. One nice option would be something like in WWIIF where you can adjust the seat position. The driver in N4 must be about 5'2". I'm 6'3" and the view for me would be completely different. For one thing, I can see the hood of my car in RL, I can't in N4. >As for chase view, while I think it detracts from the true driving >experience and I personally would never use it, I have no problem driving >against people who use it. Well, I don't like driving against people who use views that give them an unfair advantage so am glad there is a forced cockpit option. -- Jagg

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:59:53 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Nascar Heat meanwhile has a slightly different cockpit from reality but is >still not totally unrealistic. They also chosen (pure development choice) >to put the camera a little closer to the dashboard (and not so where the >driver's eye is) and flatten a little their view angle. It's not quite as >wide as in N4. That's not really a good or bad thing, just less realistic >but perhaps a better view. The drivers view would depend on the height of the person driving. I drive with my seat all the way back and as low as it will go, but I can still see well over the hoood of my car. As I mentioned in an above post I think a really good future option in racing sims would be the ability to move your position up/down and forwards/backwards within realistic constraints. Take a look at Jane's World War II Fighters to see what I mean. -- Jagg

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** This is the same argument I use regarding the pull to the right, but I get trashed whenever I mention that not everything transfers to a Sim well :) -Larry "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:40:03 GMT, "Phasor" <[email hidden]> > thus spoke: > > >This issue gets debated on the flight sim groups all the time - no matter > >how 'realistic' the view is, you are still forced to look at it through a > >17" square or however big your monitor is, without the advantage of > >peripheral vision. To compensate for this, the other 'non-realistic'

views

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> >are deemed acceptable. > > I agree. People always say that or this is realistic but don't take > into account the lack of situational awareness and how we on computers > need deviations from reality to compensate for it. One nice option > would be something like in WWIIF where you can adjust the seat > position. The driver in N4 must be about 5'2". I'm 6'3" and the view > for me would be completely different. For one thing, I can see the > hood of my car in RL, I can't in N4. > > >As for chase view, while I think it detracts from the true driving > >experience and I personally would never use it, I have no problem driving > >against people who use it. > > Well, I don't like driving against people who use views that give them > an unfair advantage so am glad there is a forced cockpit option. > -- > Jagg

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On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:40:59 -0500, "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > >This is the same argument I use regarding the pull to the right, but I get >trashed whenever I mention that not everything transfers to a Sim well :) Nascar Heat has the pull to the left too, but it's no where near as strong as in N4. -- Jagg

Once again don't get caught comparing a real world car with a Winston Cup Stock car. Most of the drivers chins barely clear the driver's side window opening on the cars whereas your head will most likely be 12 or more inches above that. The winston cup seat is right on the floorpan...no risers, no 12 inch padded cushions, they look up to see out. Remember last year in the pits when several drivers hit tires from the car in front of them while leaving thier pit boxes. They sit so low in the cars, they just can't see even 15 feet in front of them. (unless the world is turned 30 degrees sideways like it is on the high banks) dave henrie "Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:59:53 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> > thus spoke: > > > >Nascar Heat meanwhile has a slightly different cockpit from reality butis > >still not totally unrealistic. They also chosen (pure developmentchoice) > >to put the camera a little closer to the dashboard (and not so where the > >driver's eye is) and flatten a little their view angle. It's not quiteas > >wide as in N4. That's not really a good or bad thing, just lessrealistic

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> >but perhaps a better view. > > The drivers view would depend on the height of the person driving. I > drive with my seat all the way back and as low as it will go, but I > can still see well over the hoood of my car. As I mentioned in an > above post I think a really good future option in racing sims would be > the ability to move your position up/down and forwards/backwards > within realistic constraints. Take a look at Jane's World War II > Fighters to see what I mean. > -- > Jagg

>"Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote > The drivers view would depend on the height of the person driving. The height of the camera position doesn't affect either NH or N4. Both have a camera set at the same height. I'm 6 feet tall and from having sat in a WC car, I couldn't see the hood. You should check out the dejanews archive of this NG, it's been confirmed by many, even by Papyrus employees. N4 has the cockpit absolutely 100% dead on. NH has not, but you perhaps feel more at ease with it's camera position (like I said, for numerous factors). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

but the heat view isnt a realistic view, unless you put loads of pillows on your race seat and move it forward alot. pez Jagg <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:14:57 -0800, Tony Jester <[email hidden]> > thus spoke: > > >I had a strong dislike for the cockpit view when I first got the game,and

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> >said so here. However, now I'm used to it and it does not bother me, in > >fact I kinda like it because I know it is realistic. > > Well, I'm sure I will get used to it too. :-) > I just like the Nascar Heat view much better. > -- > Jagg

i gota say i really dont like the fisheye in nheat. pez ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tD2k6.13392$[email hidden]...

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> >"Jagg" <[email hidden]> wrote > > The frame is basically the same, no? So N3 and Heat have it wrong but > > N4 doesn't? I'll believe you if you show me some photos taken from the > > drivers position with a wide angle lense. Until then, I don't. > > Everybody here knows that the N4 cockpit is dead-on like reality. It's > normal to assume that it's not correct in N3, as it used a 2d-layered > cockpit which is very restrictive in terms of what Papyrus could do in > realism. > > Nascar Heat meanwhile has a slightly different cockpit from reality but is > still not totally unrealistic. They also chosen (pure development choice) > to put the camera a little closer to the dashboard (and not so where the > driver's eye is) and flatten a little their view angle. It's not quite as > wide as in N4. That's not really a good or bad thing, just less realistic > but perhaps a better view. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

i sat in a british ASCAR (nascar equivalent) at the autosport show just to see if the N4 view was anything like the real thing. it was. pez Jagg <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I know this has been said before, but this afternoon I've been running > N3, N4 and Nascar heat back to back at Sears Point and it's my > conclusion that Nascar Heat gives the best driving view (feels better > to me too). In N4 the left vertical windshield frame obstructs the > view of upcoming corners too much. I have a Mercury Sable (pretty much > the same as a Ford Taurus) and the view is a lot bigger than the one > in N4 (also in N4 it feels like I'm sitting too far back). Just hope > MGI gets a good patch out for Heat soon to make it the great sim it > deserves to be. > -- > Jagg

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:08:22 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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> Once again don't get caught comparing a real world car with >a Winston Cup Stock car. Most of the drivers chins barely >clear the driver's side window opening on the cars whereas your >head will most likely be 12 or more inches above that. The winston >cup seat is right on the floorpan...no risers, no 12 inch padded cushions, >they look up to see out. Remember last year in the pits when several >drivers >hit tires from the car in front of them while leaving thier pit boxes. >They sit so low in the cars, they just can't see even 15 feet in front of >them. >(unless the world is turned 30 degrees sideways like it is on the high >banks) >dave henrie

Ok, I'll take your word on that. But, I sure would like to see a good photo that shows me exactly how it is from the drivers position. -- Jagg

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:11:23 -0000, "Alexpez" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >i sat in a british ASCAR (nascar equivalent) at the autosport show just to >see if the N4 view was anything like the real thing. > >it was. Ok, I guess it is correct then. Makes for bloody difficult driving though. -- Jagg

So your saying N4 is possibly the greatest low-level wing walking simulation currently available? dave(my butt stays where it belongs)henrie "Someotherdude" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:> > Regardless of accuracy, there's a lost of sense of speed in the interiorview. > I tried to get used to the inside view today at Sears point, taking acurve and > checking my speed... couldn't believe it was 86mph. It looked and > felt much slower than that. Switched to the roof top view and sense ofspeed > was much better. That inside view remind me of a tank combat game I had. > > > >

"Someotherdude" <[email hidden]> wrote > Regardless of accuracy, there's a lost of sense of speed in the interiorview. There is no "loss" of the sense of speed in N4. In fact, it's more that every other title you tried have an unrealistic sense of speed. In N4 (and in GPL) it's realistic. So basically what you prefer is an unrealistic sense of speed. I can't, it's imho much more difficult to drive and much more annoying to the eyes. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:39:08 -0800, Someotherdude<[email hidden]> wrote: >I'm comparing it to GPL, I don't have any other "unrealistic" sims or even >driving games on my harddrive. I have GPL since day one, and in GPL, going fast >feels like going fast. N4 from the inside, it feels at least 50mph slower than >the indicated speed from GPL. Exactly. I start to like N4 more and more, but especially on the road tracks, sense of speed is missing. It really doesn't feel you're driving that fast. And I'm not sure, but I can imagine that if I would be sitting next to Gordon while racing on Sears, I'd throw up all over the place. Because of the speed I mean :) I think the viewpoint is very important here. Actually, I haven't tried racing from another viewpoint than the cockpit in N4, but in allmost all games speed feels much faster from the hoodview than from the cockpit view. In GPL speed does feel superb from the cockpit view, but I guess that's because it's an open car. Yesterday I installed NFS:PU and got them working with my 3D glasses. Now THERE'S a sense of speed! YIIIIHAAAAAA!!! Andre