WOW...

this group is D E A D... 3 posts in about 3 days? woo.

Plowboy wrote: > this group is D E A D... 3 posts in about 3 days? woo. > > > thank assholes like mitch

Plowboy wrote: > this group is D E A D... 3 posts in about 3 days? woo. 'Holiday season' comes to mind. I know the concept of 'going out' is strange to some of us screen-bound humanoids, but... Regards, Rudy (GPLRank: -24)

It shows how far up Papy's backside most of the ppl here were. Papy die, so does this group. Sims like GTR and Richard Burns Rally don't interest most of the ppl here because a) they simulate proper motorsports with right turns, and b) don't have 'Papyrus' written on the box. Well, it's their loss. Someone said that the reason the group is dying is that everybody's holding out on rFactor, and not enough ppl have GTR. WTF??? GTR is one of the best sims released in the last few years and not enough ppl have it in rec.autos.simulators? Call yourselves sim fans?!?

Nick wrote: > It shows how far up Papy's backside most of the ppl here were. I have my head up Kaemmer's ass more than most people, and the only reason I haven't been posting is because I'm too busy driving GTP and RBR while I wait for iRacing.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> It shows how far up Papy's backside most of the ppl here were. Papy > die, so does this group. Sims like GTR and Richard Burns Rally don't > interest most of the ppl here because a) they simulate proper > motorsports with right turns, and b) don't have 'Papyrus' written on > the box. Well, it's their loss. > > Someone said that the reason the group is dying is that everybody's > holding out on rFactor, and not enough ppl have GTR. WTF??? GTR is > one of the best sims released in the last few years and not enough ppl > have it in rec.autos.simulators? Call yourselves sim fans?!? >

Regardless of how you feel about the style of racing that Papy chose to pursue, you'd be a moron to discount the effect they had on sim racing. Everything *not* released by Papy has been simply mediocre and really not worthy of your time unless you absolutely love the genre being represented by a given "sim" to forgive the game's flaws (obvious or otherwise). The real reason this group has trailed off is because there's no sim that's really worth talking about right now. - iRacing has basically killed themselves before their first product is even close to being released - GTR is plagued with bugs and online racing problems (from what I hear) - Richard Burns Rally probably doesn't appeal to very many people (me, for instance). - EA's stockcar game is typical of EA's past attempts at creating a stockcar sim. As far as I'm concerned, rFactor is pretty much all we have to look forward to at this point, and from what I've seen of the demo and the various mods already being created, it might just fit the bill as the best thing to hit sim racing since Grand Prix Legends. Even after having said that, I'll probably be racing with NR2K3 for a long time after rFactor's release since I really like the aero88 mod, and it may be some time before something similar comes along for rFactor. Now, if we can just get some of the folks here to stop assuming they know what's best for the rest of us, r.a.s. just might come back from the dead, but I'm not really expecting that to happen.

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > The real reason this group has trailed off is because there's no sim > that's really worth talking about right now. > That's all that needs saying! :)

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > It shows how far up Papy's backside most of the ppl here were. Papy > die, so does this group. Sims like GTR and Richard Burns Rally don't > interest most of the ppl here because a) they simulate proper > motorsports with right turns, and b) don't have 'Papyrus' written on > the box. Well, it's their loss. > Too funny. > Someone said that the reason the group is dying is that everybody's > holding out on rFactor, and not enough ppl have GTR. WTF??? GTR is > one of the best sims released in the last few years and not enough ppl > have it in rec.autos.simulators? Call yourselves sim fans?!? > GTR is one of the best sims released in the last few years - yes. And that's why SFA people are posting here. GTR stinks - just another money spinner that abused the genre. 7 years since GPL was released - the last road racing sim worthy of purchase. The mods for NR2003 being the only thing saving us all from total devastation! Before people jump on the fanatical anti FIRST (iRacing) bandwagon, they should remember this. There was no need for them to even give us pta and cts at all. Not that I think there is a need for the mod bashing they're doing atm though. Sad times really.

> Regardless of how you feel about the style of racing that Papy chose > to pursue, you'd be a moron to discount the effect they had on sim > racing. Oh for sure, and perhaps the most important thing Papy did was to show publishers that you could make money making simulators. Without that knowledge, would we have Richard Burns Rally, for example? > GTR is plagued with bugs and online racing problems (from what > I hear) You don't have it?! This is rec.autos.simulators, not rec.nascar.simulators!! Isn't it worth £20 to find out? Wouldn't there be more people in this newsgroup discussing simulators, if everybody here actually bothered to go out and buy them? If we (the sim community) don't buy sims, we are telling the publishers that the market isn't there, so that means less sims in the future. > Richard Burns Rally probably doesn't appeal to very many people > (me, for instance). I think this is the major problem. NASCAR the 'sport' to me is extremely boring. Driving round in circles takes a bit of a struggle for me to even understand why people would want to do it, let alone watch it. But Papy's NASCAR sims actually got me interested in watching NASCAR for a bit, last year when it was on Eurosport over here in the UK. Even that utterly stupid Chase thing in the last 10 races still kept me watching the highlight shows. But this season, NASCAR moved to NASN (a subscription service) and I don't miss it. In other words, Papy got me interested in NASCAR for a bit. The only reason I am kinda watching the IRL at the moment is because of Wheldon and Franchitti keeping the British end up ;-) Richard Burns Rally is a phenomenal sim. It requires some driving skills (like left-foot braking) that no other sim has been able to replicate. My argument is: this is a newsgroup for people who like sims, not people who like NASCAR. If you don't like rallying, you should still like RBR on a sim level. It may even provoke your interest in the best motorsport in the world (imo). Just like Papy got me watching a motor'sport' that I wouldn't have touched with a barge pole otherwise. To paraphrase your first comment, "Regardless of how you feel about the style of racing that RBR simulates, you'd be a moron not to at least try it for yourself."

John Simmons wrote: > The real reason this group has trailed off is because there's no sim > that's really worth talking about right now. You really should give RBR a go, but...what about GTP? Great multi, great physics, great graphics/sound...it demonstrates pretty well how far n2003 is ahead of every other engine while also showing what can happen when a skilled mod group works with software that isn't a POS to begin with.

John Simmons wrote:

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> (...) > Everything *not* released by Papy has been simply mediocre and really > not worthy of your time unless you absolutely love the genre being > represented by a given "sim" to forgive the game's flaws (obvious or > otherwise). > (...) > - GTR is plagued with bugs and online racing problems (from > what I hear)

While there is no arguing that Papy sims have redefined the benchmark in racesims, I think you really should try GTR with the Escort 1974 Mod, John. Regards, Mr. Sylvestre

John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote in news:MPG.1d64daf7d67abc2e989712@news- server.satx.rr.com:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... >> It shows how far up Papy's backside most of the ppl here were. Papy >> die, so does this group. Sims like GTR and Richard Burns Rally don't >> interest most of the ppl here because a) they simulate proper >> motorsports with right turns, and b) don't have 'Papyrus' written on >> the box. Well, it's their loss. >> >> Someone said that the reason the group is dying is that everybody's >> holding out on rFactor, and not enough ppl have GTR. WTF??? GTR is >> one of the best sims released in the last few years and not enough ppl >> have it in rec.autos.simulators? Call yourselves sim fans?!? >> > > Regardless of how you feel about the style of racing that Papy chose to > pursue, you'd be a moron to discount the effect they had on sim racing. > Everything *not* released by Papy has been simply mediocre and really > not worthy of your time unless you absolutely love the genre being > represented by a given "sim" to forgive the game's flaws (obvious or > otherwise).

Grand Prix 2? -- Transplants save lives! - Have you signed up to be a donor? http://www.uktransplant.org.uk Do something amazing today. Save a life, give blood. http://www.blood.co.uk/ My games collection and Live games: http://www.fooatari.plus.com/.

>"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote > Call yourselves sim fans?!? You surely ain't a usenet fan. I yawn in your general direction. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I think this is the major problem. NASCAR the 'sport' to me is extremely boring. Driving round in circles takes a bit of a struggle for me to even understand why people would want to do it, let alone watch it. If you ever want to relax, it's great. About 10-15 laps of watching and I am sound asleep on my couch. Very relaxing.

>> Call yourselves sim fans?!? > You surely ain't a usenet fan. > I yawn in your general direction. Just trying to drum up some interest in something around here...

YAH yah yah, and with that mentality you hate football, tennis etc etc, because the ball gets to one end of fields (or court), then the other, over and over again... LOL. My dad sounds like ya BTW "they go around and around, after about 4 or 5 laps you know exaclty where they are going, big deal..." with a smart ass grin... but I called his butt out, he was watching basketball, I was watching him 'intently' watching so and soo miss yet another free throw. I was like "wow, he dribbles the ball, throws it at the hoop, then this guy goes to the other end, shoots at the hoop, repeat over and over and over.. after about 4 times up and downt the court you figure out exactly where them guys are headed.... whew how exciting..." the point of the whole thing, he had to admit I was just as right as he is... I mean how difficult is it to throw a basketball at a hoop, they do it everywhere too, by now you'd think it was just another thing you do, unlike maybe circus acts that are rare nowday... But, I admit, that mentality only applies to shit you arent interested in the 'nuances of'. last case in point, ballet or figure skating. you'd think sheesh boring, so what right? But if you had any idea of how 'not easy' it was just to spin or jump with skates on and on ice and such, maybe you'd appreciate the skills in use? Maybe Im the only one who thinks about stuff 'fair' for what it is? JTS enlightened us with:

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> I think this is the major problem. NASCAR the 'sport' to me is > extremely boring. Driving round in circles takes a bit of a struggle > for me to even understand why people would want to do it, let alone > watch it. > > If you ever want to relax, it's great. About 10-15 laps of watching > and I am sound asleep on my couch. Very relaxing.

>"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote >> You surely ain't a usenet fan. >> I yawn in your general direction. > > Just trying to drum up some interest in something around here... So hmm you're just trolling? Nothing of interest here... move along, move along. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

You can tell this group is suffering when google groups lists me as the top poster this month (by number of posts, not posting style ;-) cheers, uwe (posting from gmail for a change)

JTS wrote:

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> > >I think this is the major problem. NASCAR the 'sport' to me is >extremely boring. Driving round in circles takes a bit of a struggle >for me to even understand why people would want to do it, let alone >watch it. > >If you ever want to relax, it's great. About 10-15 laps of watching and I >am sound asleep on my couch. Very relaxing. >

Exactly. That's why we invented drag racing. No left turns. No right turns. No turns at all. 1/4 mile... A few seconds... Wham, bham, thank you maam. Get in, get out. No braking nonsense, left foot, right foot or any foot... You look at the BS involved in most sports: time limits, real estate, regulations, penalties... You'd think they were invented by a team of bureaucrats from the stinking UN! How people can sit and watch this crap is a wonder... Heh,heh... got a little carried away there. Actually, I've been lurking this group looking for posts about RBR. It's the only sim I've tried. I don't really play games on my PC. I just got RBR to sharpen my aging reflexes a bit because I heard it was the hardest to master. I have to say it is amazing fun. I've barely managed to pull myself away from the Finnish stages... sliding around on snow packed roads. Can't believe how much fun it is (using a Logitech DFP wheel). And, yes, the reflexes have improved: just managed to get within a few seconds of the stage record at Sikakama when a couple of weeks ago I was struggling to to get within 30. Seriously, for anyone who hasn't tried RBR, you are missing some great fun. -- Drew

Mr. Sylvestre wrote: > While there is no arguing that Papy sims have redefined the benchmark in > racesims, I think you really should try GTR with the Escort 1974 Mod, John. I don't mean this as insulting, but I genuinely don't understand how racing Escorts can make anyone's nipples hard.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Mr. Sylvestre wrote: > >> While there is no arguing that Papy sims have redefined the >> benchmark in racesims, I think you really should try GTR with the >> Escort 1974 Mod, John. > > I don't mean this as insulting, but I genuinely don't understand how > racing Escorts can make anyone's nipples hard.

Because they don't do 300+ km/h? Just try the mod and you will know. Cheers, Hans

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:48:38 GMT, John Simmons wrote: > > As far as I'm concerned, rFactor is pretty much all we have to look > forward to at this point, and from what I've seen of the demo and the LFS S2 is also very nice (esp. the open wheelers, I cannot get to grips with the GT style cars) and has great online code. Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Mr. Sylvestre wrote: > >> While there is no arguing that Papy sims have redefined the benchmark in >> racesims, I think you really should try GTR with the Escort 1974 Mod, >> John. > > I don't mean this as insulting, but I genuinely don't understand how > racing Escorts can make anyone's nipples hard.

You're only insulting your own intelligence.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> John Simmons wrote: > > > The real reason this group has trailed off is because there's no sim > > that's really worth talking about right now. > > You really should give RBR a go, but...what about GTP? Great multi, > great physics, great graphics/sound...it demonstrates pretty well how > far n2003 is ahead of every other engine while also showing what can > happen when a skilled mod group works with software that isn't a POS to > begin with. > >

I'm not really interested in the GTP mod. I guess I'm just too damn lazy to install it. :)

In article <ddfo4r$vmu$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> John Simmons wrote: > > (...) > > Everything *not* released by Papy has been simply mediocre and really > > not worthy of your time unless you absolutely love the genre being > > represented by a given "sim" to forgive the game's flaws (obvious or > > otherwise). > > (...) > > - GTR is plagued with bugs and online racing problems (from > > what I hear) > > While there is no arguing that Papy sims have redefined the benchmark in > racesims, I think you really should try GTR with the Escort 1974 Mod, John. > > Regards, > Mr. Sylvestre >

Well, I'm a redneck at heart, and while I really like road racing, I'd honestly rather do it in a stockcar. However, if a mid-60's era LeMans sim/mod were to come out with all the right cars, I'd buy it. :) What is "Escort 1974"?

On 12.08.2005 20:36, jason moyer wrote:

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> Mr. Sylvestre wrote: > > >>While there is no arguing that Papy sims have redefined the benchmark in >>racesims, I think you really should try GTR with the Escort 1974 Mod, John. > > > I don't mean this as insulting, but I genuinely don't understand how > racing Escorts can make anyone's nipples hard. >

I'm in the proverbial corner tonight, and I say: "Any man, getting a sexual response from driving a car, should not do the same, because it would contaminate his driving and judgements (and pants)." ---A---

NASCAR is a "made-for-TV" sport Green flag wreck /or/ debris on track /or/ any other flimsy excuse to throw the yellow (the leader got too far ahead??) COMMERCIAL Green flag yellow COMMERCIAL etc..... All major American sports are also "made-for-TV" sports, baseball, football, basketball with the # of timeouts allowed. F1, soccer, and other world-wide sports don't have "built-in-commercial-breaks"

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> > I think this is the major problem. NASCAR the 'sport' to me is > extremely boring. Driving round in circles takes a bit of a struggle > for me to even understand why people would want to do it, let alone > watch it. > > If you ever want to relax, it's great. About 10-15 laps of watching and I > am sound asleep on my couch. Very relaxing. >

Uwe Schürkamp wrote: > LFS S2 is also very nice (esp. the open wheelers, I cannot get to grips > with the GT style cars) and has great online code. > > Cheers, uwe LFS is probably the best thing going in simracing right now, it's just most people don't realise it. :) Fantastic sim with great physics particularly when you consider there is just 3 people behind it. The Formula XR is great but I agree about the GTR cars being a little hard to handle however the 4WD model is really nice and tame once you get used to it and perhaps tweak the setup a little, you can get into some fun controllable slides.

Hans de Heer wrote: > Because they don't do 300+ km/h? That, and the fact I can drive one pretty much anytime I want. Racing Ford Escorts is about as exciting to me as the thought of racing a mid 80's Plymouth Reliant K-car. > Just try the mod and you will know. I would give it a try, but the GTR demo didn't impress me enough to buy the full game. :)

John Simmons wrote: > I'm not really interested in the GTP mod. I guess I'm just too damn > lazy to install it. :) If you like to road race, it's worth the trouble. I know you're more of a NASCAR fan so I couldn't blame you if you didn't bother. 2 years from now don't be surprised if I'm telling you the same thing about the stock cars in iRacing tho. :)

On 12 Aug 2005 18:31:22 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

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>Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: > >> LFS S2 is also very nice (esp. the open wheelers, I cannot get to grips >> with the GT style cars) and has great online code. >> >> Cheers, uwe > >LFS is probably the best thing going in simracing right now, it's just >most people don't realise it. :) > >Fantastic sim with great physics particularly when you consider there >is just 3 people behind it. > >The Formula XR is great but I agree about the GTR cars being a little >hard to handle however the 4WD model is really nice and tame once you >get used to it and perhaps tweak the setup a little, you can get into >some fun controllable slides.

What I didn't like about LFS S1 is the 'Unreal Tournement On Wheels' feeling I got when I raced online. Also the tracks were boring. Is this better with LFS S2? Cheers! Remco

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Remco Moedt) wrote: > 'Unreal Tournement On Wheels' LOL! In my limited S2 experience (paid not demo) it hasn't changed, that's why I gave up online again quickly. Nice sim shame about (some of) the drivers. That's probably very unfair, but I've always found the LFS "scene" to be rather immature. If there was a mod for adding expensive hi-fi systems and extra spoilers to the cars I'm sure it'd be *very* popular. :-) Andrew "miserable old git" McP

Yea, just like we didnt realize NSR wasnt the "Best sim of all time" either. Figures you like LFS so much. Your advice regarding simracing is useless nonsense so this thread isnt any differrent than any of your other moronic ramblings. Daddy wants his PC back so run along little girl. <[email hidden]> wrote in message LFS is probably the best thing going in simracing right now, it's just most people don't realise it. :) Fantastic sim with great physics particularly when you consider there is just 3 people behind it. The Formula XR is great but I agree about the GTR cars being a little hard to handle however the 4WD model is really nice and tame once you get used to it and perhaps tweak the setup a little, you can get into some fun controllable slides.

>"Tom Harrington" <[email hidden]> wrote > NASCAR is a "made-for-TV" sport Yeah 'cause all those years in the 60's, 70's, 80's and even 90's, it was all over the TV's. >F1, soccer, and other world-wide sports don't have >"built-in-commercial-breaks" So in a way you lose when commercial happens, it cuts you out of the action. You're at lost. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Mr. Sylvestre wrote: > >> While there is no arguing that Papy sims have redefined the benchmark in >> racesims, I think you really should try GTR with the Escort 1974 Mod, >> John. > > I don't mean this as insulting, but I genuinely don't understand how > racing Escorts can make anyone's nipples hard. >

Are you from America? The lame Escort that we had in North America is nothing like the old RWD Escort which was found in Europe in the 70s. That was the same Escort which won the world rally championship. ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ For a quality usenet news server, try DNEWS, easy to install, fast, efficient and reliable. For home servers or carrier class installations with millions of users it will allow you to grow! ---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dnews.htm ----

"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 12 Aug 2005 18:31:22 -0700, [email hidden] wrote: > > What I didn't like about LFS S1 is the 'Unreal Tournement On Wheels' > feeling I got when I raced online. Also the tracks were boring. Is > this better with LFS S2? > The newer tracks have some nice elevation changes, blind apexes, interesting combinations etc.

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > GTR is plagued with bugs and online racing problems (from what > I hear) You don't have it?! This is rec.autos.simulators, not rec.nascar.simulators!! Isn't it worth �20 to find out? Wouldn't there be more people in this newsgroup discussing simulators, if everybody here actually bothered to go out and buy them? If we (the sim community) don't buy sims, we are telling the publishers that the market isn't there, so that means less sims in the future. Are you saying someone should read in here about how rooted a sim is and then go and buy it so they can see for themselves how bad it is. And thus reward a shithole of a company in the process. This is exactly the reason to read here - to avoid that! Wake up bozo!

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> John Simmons wrote: > >> I'm not really interested in the GTP mod. I guess I'm just too damn >> lazy to install it. :) > > If you like to road race, it's worth the trouble. I know you're more > of a NASCAR fan so I couldn't blame you if you didn't bother. 2 years > from now don't be surprised if I'm telling you the same thing about the > stock cars in iRacing tho. :) >

The only thing about GTP is that it's a hack of a hack really. I think it's obvious that NR2003 has programming specific to cup cars so that something much lighter and with much lower centre of gravity just doesn't feel right to me. Still, it is worth the DL + install, but GTR shows how these types of cars should drive - pity SimBin are clueless when it comes to net code. TAs in NR2003 are very believable by comparison.

"Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:48:38 GMT, John Simmons wrote: >> >> As far as I'm concerned, rFactor is pretty much all we have to look >> forward to at this point, and from what I've seen of the demo and the > > LFS S2 is also very nice (esp. the open wheelers, I cannot get to grips > with the GT style cars) and has great online code. >

Is it true that LFS II does not score anyone who DNFs for any reason? ie disco, crash, run out of fuel, etc

John Simmons wrote: > Well, I'm a redneck at heart, and while I really like road racing, I'd > honestly rather do it in a stockcar. However, if a mid-60's era LeMans > sim/mod were to come out with all the right cars, I'd buy it. :) > > What is "Escort 1974"? Have a look at http://www.bhmotorsports.com/movie/511 then get the mod from http://www.core-team.org/ You can also download Watkins Glen (NASCAR layout) from http://www.gtrresource.com/ and compare the fun you get from humble Ford Escorts MK1 (European model, 1974) in GTR and the NASCAR tanks in N2K3. YMMV, but I sure do enjoy both. Regards, Mr. S.

Byron Forbes wrote: > feel right to me. Still, it is worth the DL + install, but GTR shows how > these types of cars should drive - pity SimBin are clueless when it comes to I dunno, the GTR demo didn't convince me of much. I've never seen a car bounce up and down violently everytime you touch the brake pedal.

jason moyer wrote: > That, and the fact I can drive one pretty much anytime I want. Racing > Ford Escorts is about as exciting to me as the thought of racing a mid > 80's Plymouth Reliant K-car. Hehe - must be a cultural thing. When you hear "Ford Escort", you are probably thinking about this sorry contraption: http://tinyurl.com/7l3kv while on the other side of the pond, we think about that one: www.historicrace.fi/Pict1253a.jpg The street version was some kind of European equivalent of a poor man's Pontiac Fiero (yuck!). While I would not be caught in bed with an Escort, I must confess enjoying these a lot in GTR (the 280BHP's do help). Then, there is the late Escort Cosworth... but I'll stop here before other BBC Top Gear brainwashed afficionados chime in. By the way, over here a Reliant is something even more exciting http://www.3wheelers.com/reliant.html Regards, Mr. S.

"Mr. Sylvestre" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ddstib$pj2$[email hidden]...

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> jason moyer wrote: >> That, and the fact I can drive one pretty much anytime I want. Racing >> Ford Escorts is about as exciting to me as the thought of racing a mid >> 80's Plymouth Reliant K-car. > > Hehe - must be a cultural thing. When you hear "Ford Escort", you are > probably thinking about this sorry contraption: > > http://tinyurl.com/7l3kv >

Even worse, he's probably thinking of this one: http://www.bambootrading.com/1800/1819.jpg Shared the bodyshell with the European Escort from 1981, and that was about it. You got the XR3, and we got vinyl seats, fake woodgrain and chrome wheel trim rings... Stephen

"Mr. Sylvestre" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:ddsrsh$p2c$1 @ikaria.belnet.be:

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> John Simmons wrote: >> Well, I'm a redneck at heart, and while I really like road racing, I'd >> honestly rather do it in a stockcar. However, if a mid-60's era LeMans >> sim/mod were to come out with all the right cars, I'd buy it. :) >> >> What is "Escort 1974"? > > Have a look at http://www.bhmotorsports.com/movie/511 then get the mod > from http://www.core-team.org/ > > You can also download Watkins Glen (NASCAR layout) from > http://www.gtrresource.com/ and compare the fun you get from humble Ford > Escorts MK1 (European model, 1974) in GTR and the NASCAR tanks in N2K3. > YMMV, but I sure do enjoy both. > > Regards, > Mr. S. >

Thread hijacking time. It looks like EA has FINALLY realized that Watkins Glen has a hump on the main straight. For years, the track released with the variou Thunder incarnations actually dipped down the straight. During the broadcast of the recent Nextel cup race at the Glen they showed an animated trip around the track. So I'm assuming it was NSR. And it finally had the proper elevation change. Can anyone confirm this? dave henrie

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1124201460.504852.275350 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > I dunno, the GTR demo didn't convince me of much. I've never seen a > car bounce up and down violently everytime you touch the brake pedal. Then you never watched a replay of any online Papy mod have you? :) One of the things that bothers me about GTR is not under braking but acceleration. The old Viper washboards when I exit a slow corner(which as most of you know, is just about EVERY corner) The front dips, then the back etc, it's like I'm on a playground ride called a teeter-totter(usa) dave henrie

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:11:28 GMT, kandr <[email hidden]> wrote: >Seriously, for anyone who hasn't tried RBR, you are missing some great >fun. You know, I don't think I've ever even SEEN that in the stores... I checked interactcd.com, and they have it for $29.95. Where have people seen it for $20? Eldred

Gogamer.com has the DVD version for $24.90 http://www.gogamer.com/cgi-bin/GoGamer.storefront/430265220095cd8c273fd0fedee206cc/Product/View/001RIC That's where I got my version from, but mine is the CD version. Bill "Eldred Pickett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:11:28 GMT, kandr <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Seriously, for anyone who hasn't tried RBR, you are missing some great >>fun. > > You know, I don't think I've ever even SEEN that in the stores... I > checked interactcd.com, and they have it for $29.95. Where have > people seen it for $20? > > Eldred

O my brothers, our droog Eldred Pickett govoreeted the following slovos: > >You know, I don't think I've ever even SEEN that in the stores... I >checked interactcd.com, and they have it for $29.95. Where have >people seen it for $20? > >Eldred There are several new RBR DVDs on ebay for under 10 GBP, incl shipping: the "genuine UK version". Photo looks the same as the one I got from gogamer. (According to Alan Greenspan 10 quid is less than 20 bucks .) -- Drew

kandr <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > (According to Alan Greenspan 10 quid is less than 20 bucks .) > I thought Squid had 8 arms? dave henrie

I don't understand the doom and gloom. I think there are any number of great sims now. WRT GTR complaints. Online - probably justified. Offline - the fact is that no sim has modeled bumps anywhere near this well, so it feels strange compared to the unrealistically smooth sims everyone's used to. Watch an incar of LeMans - looks _exactly_ like GTR. The cars are dancing around like crazy. Yeah, it's tough to drive. But my times keep improving as I do it better, the skills involved are realistic ones, and I always know what I'm doing wrong. I can't say the same about GPL, as good as it is. RBR. If this doesn't excite you, I'm surprised. I'm still trying to pass that last darn lesson. Just not good enough. When I get frustrated with that I go to Nevada and let it all hang out. Woo. NASCAR. People just say they don't get NASCAR. The difference is that NASCAR is a competition between drivers, not cars or tracks. You need to be able to drive a corner a tenth of a second faster than the other guy, adjust your line to deal with traffic or your setup/tires, and know when to make a move and when to hold back and wait for a better opportunity. Tire management is crucial in longer races. There's a _lot_ to it (mostly involving thinking), just different stuff than roadracing. To me, different is good. GPL holds up amazingly well, but I think GTR has pretty well surpassed it offline. GPL seems artificial by comparison, particularly in how the cars respond to setup changes. Screwy setups work in GPL, but not in GTR.

Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1124201460.504852.275350 > @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > >> I dunno, the GTR demo didn't convince me of much. I've never seen a >> car bounce up and down violently everytime you touch the brake pedal. > > Then you never watched a replay of any online Papy mod have you? > >:) > > One of the things that bothers me about GTR is not under braking > but > acceleration. The old Viper washboards when I exit a slow > corner(which as most of you know, is just about EVERY corner) The > front dips, then the back etc, it's like I'm on a playground ride > called a teeter-totter(usa) > > dave henrie

Go to Options, then Advanced, play with your G-Force Simulation and World Movement sliders to reduce the movement. Don

Don Scurlock <[email hidden]> wrote in > > Go to Options, then Advanced, play with your G-Force Simulation and > World Movement sliders to reduce the movement. Don > > Thanks...I'll look into that. I noticed that using the Fast default setup at Spa, I got very little of the porpiseing effect that I mentioned above. However, using one of Gregor Huttu's setups at Estoril, that is where the bouncing seemed the worst. Especially after the middle straight and the sharp left. There is a medium length straight before you turn right to go through the Esto<?> Chicane. On that straight, between turns 5 and 6 if you don't count the kink in the 2nd longest straight, I can't seem to put any power down due to the bouncing. dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote: > One of the things that bothers me about GTR is not under braking but > acceleration. The old Viper washboards when I exit a slow corner(which as > most of you know, is just about EVERY corner) The front dips, then the > back etc, it's like I'm on a playground ride called a teeter-totter(usa) I think GTR is a helluva an effort, but yeah, the constant porpoising is annoying. If you run the "generic setup that works as a baseline for every mod for F1C" i.e. fully soft springs and bump dampers and fully stiff bars and rebound dampers it gets rid of some of it, but it still feels like the car is about to leave terra firma. My other niggle with GTR is not getting any real feedback (visual or aural) from what the tires are doing, but I've felt that way about every ISI title.

Stephen F. wrote: > Even worse, he's probably thinking of this one: > > http://www.bambootrading.com/1800/1819.jpg Bingo.

Exactly Bob. Anyone that thinks the bumps are over-modeled in GTR obviously dont have a clue about reality. Did you watch the SJ cart race? I almost cracked a rib when some moron says GTP over models the bumps. Papy (or anyone) was never even close to reality in this regard. A few tracks are pretty smooth, but not many and not that smooth. GTR is right on regarding the bumps in conjunction with head movement feels very realistic. Id bet most here dont even turn on head "G"s. "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I don't understand the doom and gloom. > > I think there are any number of great sims now. > > WRT GTR complaints. Online - probably justified. Offline - the fact > is that no sim has modeled bumps anywhere near this well, so it feels > strange compared to the unrealistically smooth sims everyone's used to. > Watch an incar of LeMans - looks _exactly_ like GTR. The cars are > dancing around like crazy. Yeah, it's tough to drive. But my times > keep improving as I do it better, the skills involved are realistic > ones, and I always know what I'm doing wrong. I can't say the same > about GPL, as good as it is. > > RBR. If this doesn't excite you, I'm surprised. I'm still trying to > pass that last darn lesson. Just not good enough. When I get > frustrated with that I go to Nevada and let it all hang out. Woo. > > NASCAR. People just say they don't get NASCAR. The difference is that > NASCAR is a competition between drivers, not cars or tracks. You need > to be able to drive a corner a tenth of a second faster than the other > guy, adjust your line to deal with traffic or your setup/tires, and > know when to make a move and when to hold back and wait for a better > opportunity. Tire management is crucial in longer races. There's a > _lot_ to it (mostly involving thinking), just different stuff than > roadracing. To me, different is good. > > GPL holds up amazingly well, but I think GTR has pretty well surpassed > it offline. GPL seems artificial by comparison, particularly in how > the cars respond to setup changes. Screwy setups work in GPL, but not > in GTR. >

jason moyer wrote: > I think GTR is a helluva an effort, but yeah, the constant porpoising > is annoying. Interestingly enough, while I find the GTL demo underwhelming (my god these cars dumptruck like mad), it doesn't seem to feature the constant porpoising that GTR had.

O my brothers, our droog Dave Henrie govoreeted the following slovos...

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>kandr <[email hidden]> wrote in >news:[email hidden]: > >> (According to Alan Greenspan 10 quid is less than 20 bucks .) >> > >I thought Squid had 8 arms? >

Healthy squid do. For the RBR dvd they are asking six quid. Heh. -- Drew

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> Don Scurlock <[email hidden]> wrote in > > > > > Go to Options, then Advanced, play with your G-Force Simulation and > > World Movement sliders to reduce the movement. Don > > > > > > Thanks...I'll look into that. I noticed that using the Fast default > setup at Spa, I got very little of the porpiseing effect that I mentioned > above. However, using one of Gregor Huttu's setups at Estoril, that is > where the bouncing seemed the worst. Especially after the middle straight > and the sharp left. There is a medium length straight before you turn > right to go through the Esto<?> Chicane. On that straight, between turns 5 > and 6 if you don't count the kink in the 2nd longest straight, I can't seem > to put any power down due to the bouncing. > dave henrie

Someone complaining that GTR is too bumpy, said <using one of Gregor Huttu's setups at Estoril, that is where the bouncing seemed the worst. Especially after the middle straight and the sharp left. There is a medium length straight before you turn right to go through the Esto<?> Chicane. On that straight, between turns 5 and 6 if you don't count the kink in the 2nd longest straight, I can't seem to put any power down due to the bouncing. > Some stuff from some recent MotoGP websites: "Nicky had said the surface wasn't as bad as a lot of guys were saying, no worse than at Estoril as an example. " "Again the low grip levels are a factor, as are the repetitive bumps in the track surface on the exits of the turns, which can unsettle a fast bike on old tires easily." "The track lies 20 miles west of Lisbon and is close to the town of Sintra. The 4.182km circuit features a balance of turns with nine rights and four lefts. Built in 1972 the surface is now bumpy in parts and some riders are unsure over the asphalt's ability to provide dependable grip over a race weekend." "Estoril is also one of the most difficult circuits to find the right suspension settings. The front suspension is subject to heavy braking at the end of the start/finish straight and also in the straight leading onto the Parabolica Interior corner. It is therefore necessary to fit hard springs, although the circuit is quite bumpy and these hard springs do not absorb the bumps so well which often pushes the bike off the racing line. The same problem is apparent in the rear suspension too. On the one hand there is a section of esses and also a corner taken in fifth gear at more than 230 km/h which in normal circumstances would mean fitting hard springs to make the rear more rigid. However, on the other hand, the lack of grip on the track and the bumpy surface means we must choose a softer suspension to reach a compromise. " Welcome to reality. GTR rocks. Bob

Yea funny. I was watching the Busch truck race last weekend and all the drivers kept saying was how bumpy and slick Nashville is. In fact pretty much every driver is always looking for more grip at any track on any day. Each time I heard this I had to laugh at the people here who truly believe in their hearts that GTR's slick bumpiness is unrealistic. And these are fn Trucks on an Oval no less. . "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Someone complaining that GTR is too bumpy, said > > <using one of Gregor Huttu's setups at Estoril, that is > where the bouncing seemed the worst. Especially after the middle > straight and the sharp left. There is a medium length straight before > you turn right to go through the Esto<?> Chicane. On that straight, > between turns 5 and 6 if you don't count the kink in the 2nd longest > straight, I can't seem to put any power down due to the bouncing. > > > Some stuff from some recent MotoGP websites: > > "Nicky had said the surface wasn't as bad as a lot of guys were saying, > no worse than at Estoril as an example. " > > "Again the low grip levels are a factor, as are the repetitive bumps in > the track surface on the exits of the turns, which can unsettle a fast > bike on old tires easily." > > "The track lies 20 miles west of Lisbon and is close to the town of > Sintra. The 4.182km circuit features a balance of turns with nine > rights and four lefts. Built in 1972 the surface is now bumpy in parts > and some riders are unsure over the asphalt's ability to provide > dependable grip over a race weekend." > > "Estoril is also one of the most difficult circuits to find the right > suspension settings. The front suspension is subject to heavy braking > at the end of the start/finish straight and also in the straight > leading onto the Parabolica Interior corner. It is therefore necessary > to fit hard springs, although the circuit is quite bumpy and these hard > springs do not absorb the bumps so well which often pushes the bike off > the racing line. The same problem is apparent in the rear suspension > too. On the one hand there is a section of esses and also a corner > taken in fifth gear at more than 230 km/h which in normal circumstances > would mean fitting hard springs to make the rear more rigid. However, > on the other hand, the lack of grip on the track and the bumpy surface > means we must choose a softer suspension to reach a compromise. " > > Welcome to reality. GTR rocks. > > Bob >

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:30:55 +0200, "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote: >Even worse, he's probably thinking of this one: > >http://www.bambootrading.com/1800/1819.jpg Hey, I actually *owned* one of those. Two, really. :-) 1986 Pony, and a 1991 LX. Not a bad car, really. I got 171K miles out of the second before the tranny died... Eldred

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:30:55 +0200, "Stephen F." >Even worse, he's probably thinking of this one: >http://www.bambootrading.com/1800/1819.jpg Hey, I actually *owned* one of those. Two, really. :-) 1986 Pony, and a 1991 LX. Not a bad car, really. I got 171K miles out of the second before the *** died... Eldred

Bob wrote:

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> WRT GTR complaints. Online - probably justified. Offline - the fact > is that no sim has modeled bumps anywhere near this well, so it feels > strange compared to the unrealistically smooth sims everyone's used to. > Watch an incar of LeMans - looks _exactly_ like GTR. The cars are > dancing around like crazy. Yeah, it's tough to drive. But my times > keep improving as I do it better, the skills involved are realistic > ones, and I always know what I'm doing wrong. I can't say the same > about GPL, as good as it is.

I'm not a NASCAR fan, and my first proper foray into Papy's NASCAR sims was NR2002. One of my first TV races, I remember thinking just how bumpy the track was-the cars were all over the place, and I've experienced just how awful American suspension is (sorry guys, but it's true-I hired a Mercedes Vito 8-seater last weekend with air suspension, rocked and rolled all over the place as you'd expect, and it was still better than anything American I've driven on the suspension side of things :( ). Anyway, I remember Papy making a big deal of modelling bumps in NR2003, but no, it's still smooth-as. GTR is good. Also, porpoising is natural in racing cars, due to their extremely light weight and very stiff suspension settings. You just don't get that in overdamped cup cars, but you should still get the bumps in a sim like NR2003-plus the 2CV rebounds :) > RBR. If this doesn't excite you, I'm surprised. I'm still trying to > pass that last darn lesson. Just not good enough. When I get > frustrated with that I go to Nevada and let it all hang out. Woo. That one's nasty... the thing I like about RBR is you first get in and it understeers everywhere. And I mean *everywhere*. You have to learn how to left-foot brake to even get around most of the corners. In fact, it's pretty realistic in that regard. The first time I got a proper pendulum going, I couldn't get the grin off my face!

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> NASCAR. People just say they don't get NASCAR. The difference is that > NASCAR is a competition between drivers, not cars or tracks. You need > to be able to drive a corner a tenth of a second faster than the other > guy, adjust your line to deal with traffic or your setup/tires, and > know when to make a move and when to hold back and wait for a better > opportunity. Tire management is crucial in longer races. There's a > _lot_ to it (mostly involving thinking), just different stuff than > roadracing. To me, different is good.

That is a fantastic way to sum it up. I'm just not made for NASCAR, or it's not made for me, or whatever, but I respect the skills involved. Everything that racing means to me seems at odds to what is involved in NASCAR, but it obviously appeals to a lot of people and I respect that. > GPL holds up amazingly well, but I think GTR has pretty well surpassed > it offline. GPL seems artificial by comparison, particularly in how > the cars respond to setup changes. Screwy setups work in GPL, but not > in GTR. GPL is great, but the tyre model is damn awful. The thing that puts me off most is the GPL 'bounce'-when you're sliding and one end moves a bit, then with the increased AoA, the other end returns, and you end up yawing laterally a few degrees left and right through the turns. It reminds me of an F-16 deep stall, where it just settles and you have to follow the yaw moments with your controls until you can get it out of the other end. Everything else about that sim is great though, I'd love to see the source leaked so we could fix it up-it worked so well for Falcon 4.0...

> You really should give RBR a go, but...what about GTP? Great multi, > great physics, Ahem, great physics? RBR, yes but GTP? Well, I guess they're not contaminated with complexity...

Steve Simpson wrote: > Ahem, great physics? RBR, yes but GTP? Well, I guess they're not > contaminated with complexity... The Redline Developments GTP mod 1.1? N2003 is the only sim I know of besides RBR that doesn't rely on lookup tables for everything, and while I think RBR's physical modelling (i.e. of the engine components and so forth) is much better I can't think of anything with a better tire model than N2003/GTP. In terms of GTP vs N2003, each car has completely unique physics, down to parts of the sim that no one outside of RD ever dared to modify. It's not like the other mods that simply changed engine and weight values, and placed limits on things inside the garage menu. The tire characteristics, suspension geometry, and aerodynamics have all been highly modified, and IMHO the end result is fairly unique, even compared to N2003. It's also gotten really high praise from some popular sportscar drivers. :) Jason

"Saltheart_Foamfollower" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gIJMe.226$[email hidden]... > Exactly Bob. > > Anyone that thinks the bumps are over-modeled in GTR obviously dont have a > clue about reality. Did you watch the SJ cart race? > > I almost cracked a rib when some moron says GTP over models the bumps. Could've been me. Sorry if I caused you any injury! A snip from an RAS post of mine on looking at the bump-modeling via Motec: "if you crank the telemetry data sampling rate up all the way and take a good look at the suspension travel and damper velocities it appears there's something funky going on in there. I've seen instances of the suspension oscillating through a 12cm range (+/-6) in .05-second intervals in fairly low-speed sections of Spa, and that just looks off to me. Think about it; up and down 6cm, or 2& 1/4 inches, 20 times per second. That's a jackhammer on turbo-mode, not a shock absorber." Don't get me wrong - bump modeling is a good thing. But as I've said before, I've driven through that section of Spa (Fagnes) back when you could do it, and have ridden it on a bike with no suspension at all and 21mm tires at 120psi. It just ain't that bumpy. And BTW, SJ/Champcar is a lousy comparison; even stiffer cars, and on city streets to boot. Thank you for playing; please try again... ;-)

Steve Blankenship wrote: > Don't get me wrong - bump modeling is a good thing. Bump modelling is a good thing, but the way you feel variations in pitch and roll in a sim are similar to the way you feel lateral and longitudinal acceleration. Without the actual physical g-forces acting on your body, the car will always feel like it's moving more slowly than it is, that the cornering power is less than it actually is, and that variations in pitch and roll caused by bumps are less than what are actually being transferred to the car. Any track that feels "realistically" bumpy in a sim looks totally ridiculous if you actually look at the telemetry (and, 99% of the time, in a simple TV cam replay).

First off I respect your knowledge and experience Steve. Ive never driven spa and likely never will but I do have eyes and can see cars of every type bobbing up and down violently when encountering bumps at speed. All car types and all tracks are effected by bumps although some are smoother than others (the F1 race in the mid-east comes to mind). Perhaps the bumps arent modeled perfectly in GTR and the motec data looks funky but Id rather have a simulation of the bump even if its not perfect than an unrealistically flat track (which is what weve had to date). Hmmm. So the Cart race in SJ wasnt an automobile race? Or you just blow it off because it doesnt fit your questionable argument? Basically youre saying if they cant do it right dont even try? Where would we be in simracing had everyone had your idealogy. Nowhere. No Indy500, no Bill Elliots Nascar Challenge, no Indycar racing 1-2, no F1RC, no GPL, no NRseries, no GTR, no GTL, no rFactor, no nothing. I prefer the devs at least try. Why did GPL get a pass? It has a horrid tire model yet that didnt keep it from being perhaps the best racing simulation for many years. "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Don't get me wrong - bump modeling is a good thing. But as I've said > before, I've driven through that section of Spa (Fagnes) back when you > could > do it, and have ridden it on a bike with no suspension at all and 21mm > tires > at 120psi. It just ain't that bumpy. And BTW, SJ/Champcar is a lousy > comparison; even stiffer cars, and on city streets to boot. > > Thank you for playing; please try again... ;-) > >

"Saltheart_Foamfollower" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1a2Oe.17$[email hidden]... > First off I respect your knowledge and experience Steve. Well you didn't wait long to make your 1st mistake... ;-) > Ive never driven spa and likely never will but I do have eyes and can see > cars of every type bobbing up and down violently when encountering bumpsat > speed. All car types and all tracks are effected by bumps although some > are smoother than others (the F1 race in the mid-east comes to mind). > > Perhaps the bumps arent modeled perfectly in GTR and the motec data looks > funky but Id rather have a simulation of the bump even if its not perfect > than an unrealistically flat track (which is what weve had to date). Thus my comment commending bump modeling. I LIKE bumps; glass smooth surfaces are boring. But dedicated motor racing circuits are by and large much smoother than the streets we drive on, and the bumps they do have do not resemble motocross tracks. The damper velocities in Motec look OK, it's just the range of travel that makes it look off. > Hmmm. So the Cart race in SJ wasnt an automobile race? Or you just blowit > off because it doesnt fit your questionable argument? Not at all; it's just that the Champcars have stiffer suspensions with less travel, and city streets, even ones that get some TLC are nowhere near as smooth as dedicated race tracks, which the GTR tracks are. Those poor suckers at SJ were getting liquified! > Basically youre saying if they cant do it right dont even try? Wherewould > we be in simracing had everyone had your idealogy. Nowhere. No Indy500,no > Bill Elliots Nascar Challenge, no Indycar racing 1-2, no F1RC, no GPL, no > NRseries, no GTR, no GTL, no rFactor, no nothing. I prefer the devs at > least try. Said nothing of the sort. Only that I think they overshot it going for the "effect." Hell, I applaud SimBin for doing GTR; I love the idea of it, I just never could sort out the stuttering graphics or get past the level of chattering & porpoising. The former was inherited from ISI in gMotor1, but the latter was their own doing. It may be the bump amplitude in the surfaces, or some harmonic coming from the frequency of the bumps and the physics engine. Dunno. I expect the effect on grip, particularly at low speed, is why ISI is using a two-stage, tweakable cockpit shake effect in rFactor instead of doing it with the racing surface. Just a guess, though. Too bad GTR's not as open as native ISI work so you could muck around in there and see what's what. But I expect they'll have it sorted for the next iteration of GTR and look forward to that; in the meantime I think I'll be enjoying GTL. > Why did GPL get a pass? It has a horrid tire model yet that didnt keep it > from being perhaps the best racing simulation for many years. Jeez, man; that was 1998, after all. Papy themselves stealth-tweaked the tire model with the first patch, and even Kaemmer himself has said the tire model falls short. Times change. As for it's longevity, GPL was never perfect; it was just a huge leap over what had come before, and for some time after it was still the best relative to what else was out there in terms of the total package. In some ways it arguably still is; thus it's continued following. I doubt we'll see that big a leap again; what you're seeing now is convergence, where all sims are beginning to feel more alike. Which is what you'd expect; cars being cars, after all. But I hope I'm wrong - I would LOVE to see the sim that would have me uninstalling GPL...

"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> > Could've been me. Sorry if I caused you any injury! > > A snip from an RAS post of mine on looking at the bump-modeling via > Motec: > > "if you crank the telemetry data sampling rate up all the way and take > a good look at the suspension travel and damper velocities it appears > there's something funky going on in there. I've seen instances of the > suspension oscillating through a 12cm range (+/-6) in .05-second > intervals in fairly low-speed sections of Spa, and that just looks off > to me. Think about it; up and down 6cm, or 2& 1/4 inches, 20 times > per second. That's a jackhammer on turbo-mode, not a shock absorber." >

This has nothing to do with this thread,(suprise!) but it might be interesting none-the-less. Flipping channels last night I caught a bit of an old Nascar at Bristol on ESPN Classic. The time frame looked to be around the days of thunder time. #3 was there, and Rusty had a black car, M Waltrip was still in the yellow Kodak Pontiac. Mark Martin hit the wall. Some time later, they had a pit report and the showed a shock in two pieces. The bumps were so bad that Martin had pulled the shock shaft/seal from the shock body. It was not damaged, just pulled completely out of the shell of the shock absorber. (damper to Euro folk?) Timely? Yes. Relevant? no. But dang wierd. dave henrie

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> This has nothing to do with this thread,(suprise!) but it might be > interesting none-the-less. > > Flipping channels last night I caught a bit of an old Nascar at Bristol > on ESPN Classic. The time frame looked to be around the days of thunder > time. > #3 was there, and Rusty had a black car, M Waltrip was still in the

yellow > Kodak Pontiac. > > Mark Martin hit the wall. Some time later, they had a pit report andthe > showed a shock in two pieces. The bumps were so bad that Martin hadpulled > the shock shaft/seal from the shock body. It was not damaged, just pulled > completely out of the shell of the shock absorber. (damper to Euro folk?) > > Timely? Yes. Relevant? no. But dang wierd. Not so weird, Dave. Seen it happen before - the top probably just came unscrewed from vibration or hadn't been tightened properly. That's how you rebuild 'em. Typically not mid-race, though... ;-)