N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona and have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I have actually won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine. HOWEVER - installed the patch. 1. just gone green - 3 cars on the inside turn directly onto the grass run across it and rejoin causing an accident. 2. another occasion after green flag a group of cars just remain at pace car lap speed. eventually after a few laps the lead cars crash into them. 3. again on a further race - the yellow came out. All cars decided to go below the white dash line to run at pace car speed. When the race went green they all remained there. In fact I have not been able to run a single race without these problems. (note I have not installed 3rd party thingies like nocd patch) As I had no problem with the original install I've decided to return to it - 'cause it just pisses you off when you want to do some serious racing and these stupid things happen! I have the US version of the game One other point - I thought the generally lower frame rates would be caused (unlike Nascar Heat) because the AI cars would be riding their springs (as GPL) but this is not the case, is it? The AI cars travel around the track without so much as a jiggle almost like they are on rails. Disappointing when I remember in the original Nascar game the cars in front used to wobble their rear ends under braking. This seams to me to be a retrograde product in that respect. Alan

From what others have posted here that is one of the next issues they are going to tackle.(the Daytona cars running onto the grass.) You should cross post this on the Sierra board for N4 and hopefully Eric B or another Papy employee will pass it along. dave henrie "Alan Coates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6QYJ6.10736$[email hidden]... > I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona and > have been doing pretty well.

How could they not know about that (gigantically obvious) issue by now? We need to cross post the other 150 issues that seem to have escaped the testers again. Marc. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sr%J6.129593$[email hidden]... > From what others have posted here that is one of the next issues theyare > going to tackle.(the Daytona cars running onto the grass.) > You should cross post this on the Sierra board for N4 and hopefully EricB > or another Papy employee will pass it along. > dave henrie > "Alan Coates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:6QYJ6.10736$[email hidden]... > > I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytonaand > > have been doing pretty well. > >

Daytona is wrecked, but the AI at some of the other tracks is better. If you had tried other tracks, you would have been cursing the original. Marc. "Alan Coates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6QYJ6.10736$[email hidden]... > I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona and > have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I haveactually

Quoted text (7 lines)

> won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine. > > HOWEVER - installed the patch. > > 1. just gone green - 3 cars on the inside turn directly onto the grass run > across it and rejoin causing an accident. > 2. another occasion after green flag a group of cars just remain at pace

car > lap speed. eventually after a few laps the lead cars crash into them. > 3. again on a further race - the yellow came out. All cars decided to go > below the white dash line to run at pace car speed. When the race wentgreen > they all remained there. > > In fact I have not been able to run a single race without these problems. > (note I have not installed 3rd party thingies like nocd patch) > > As I had no problem with the original install I've decided to return toit - > 'cause it just pisses you off when you want to do some serious racing and > these stupid things happen! > > I have the US version of the game > > One other point - I thought the generally lower frame rates would becaused > (unlike Nascar Heat) because the AI cars would be riding their springs (as > GPL) but this is not the case, is it? The AI cars travel around the track > without so much as a jiggle almost like they are on rails. Disappointing > when I remember in the original Nascar game the cars in front used towobble > their rear ends under braking. This seams to me to be a retrograde product > in that respect. > > Alan > >

On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:40:31 +0100, "Alan Coates" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona and >have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I have actually >won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine.<sniperdesnip> The AI at Daytona still has it's problems, and indeed, one of those problems is that they drive on the grass as you said. But the patch improves the AI at all the other tracks.. some people think they back off too easily now, I agree somewhat, but I've had excellent races now with the AI (full 43 car field), even at a nightmare track like Bristol. Before the patch I hated driving against the AI, it was like racing with 42 Stevie Wonders on the track. The list of things that the patch fixes is huge, you can't expect them to fix every single problem in the first patch of such a complicated sim (or we had to wait for another couple of months for the patch to arrive..) I have full confidence that the remaining problems will also be fixed (we're talking about Papy here, right DGF?) so in the meantime enjoy the AI at the other tracks and race Daytona online. Andre

It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch. If a game is released as a product you BUY you should EXPECT the product to function correctly.in this case its supposed to be a race car simulator which the guy has purchased,and it is not functioning as it should. I think he's entitled to be annoyed. why should he be an un-paid tester? why should he pay to test ?? . its not a case of a few isolated types of computer configuration not agreeing with the game,its a basic flaw in game AI. across the board,no exceptions. Stop making excuses for the companies who are taking us for suckers. I dont know of any other product that you could buy where people would be willing to put up with crap that does not function in the manner it should. I'm sick of bloody patches to the extent that I don't even think about buying a game on release any more.I wait until all the post xmas patches stop coming then wait some more just to make sure.(it don't always work, are u listening ROWAN and you chunk of shite Battle of Britain which could have been so good but you screwed it and did't even bother to fix it). So your lawnmower has no blade . tough shit we are having a bit of difficulty fitting blades to that type of mower,but you keep it until we can be botherd to put it right for you, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:40:31 +0100, "Alan Coates" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytonaand > >have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I haveactually

Quoted text (21 lines)

> >won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine. > <sniperdesnip> > > The AI at Daytona still has it's problems, and indeed, one of those > problems is that they drive on the grass as you said. > But the patch improves the AI at all the other tracks.. some people > think they back off too easily now, I agree somewhat, but I've had > excellent races now with the AI (full 43 car field), even at a > nightmare track like Bristol. Before the patch I hated driving against > the AI, it was like racing with 42 Stevie Wonders on the track. > > The list of things that the patch fixes is huge, you can't expect them > to fix every single problem in the first patch of such a complicated > sim (or we had to wait for another couple of months for the patch to > arrive..) > > I have full confidence that the remaining problems will also be fixed > (we're talking about Papy here, right DGF?) so in the meantime enjoy > the AI at the other tracks and race Daytona online. > > Andre

>"dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote > It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge > patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch. > If a game is released as a product you BUY you should EXPECT the productto > function correctly.in this case its supposed to be a race car simulator > which the guy has purchased,and it is not functioning as it should. Ithink > he's entitled to be annoyed. The thing is, you can't ship a product and expect 100% of the customers to be satisfied. That is the basic of gaming development, one of the fundamental rule developers agree with. Should it have been held back from it's release? No way. Not from a business point-of-view. Not even from a gaming (to please the hardcore crowd) point-of-view. We had waited enough, buggy or not it was time they released it. The people having problems are quite minimal. Out-of-the-box, N4 is a pure marvel. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I agree, Its a awesome sim.

> Out-of-the-box, N4 is a pure marvel. Not compared to GPL or what it should be. Since the standards are so low (NASCAR Heat perhaps?), people expect multiple patches over months after the game is released. I agree with the poster above that issues like fundamental flaws in AI should prevent release. It's not the same as minor issues with certain hardware, or whatever. Releasing titles without split axis support is another no-no--except that proves the tile is a total piece of shit because it couldn't have been tested with split axis before release!! Therefore it either has an inferior physics engine or was never intended to be anything but arcade candy. Marc.

Marc, Do you know what is involved in getting things done in a patch? Any possiblity there could have been more pressing things to fix at first? Giving Papy's history, unlike some other developers, I feel very confident they will continue to do nothing but improve N4 for everyone. Of course, no developer will ever please 100% of the people 100% of the time. There are some that probably simply should move on to something else. -- Don Burnette D Burnette in N4 Some people do nothing wrong. The problem is, they do nothing. And THAT is wrong. "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WZ2K6.3186$h%[email hidden]... > How could they not know about that (gigantically obvious) issue by now? We > need to cross post the other 150 issues that seem to have escaped the > testers again. > > Marc. > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:sr%J6.129593$[email hidden]... > > From what others have posted here that is one of the next issues they > are > > going to tackle.(the Daytona cars running onto the grass.) > > You should cross post this on the Sierra board for N4 and hopefully Eric > B > > or another Papy employee will pass it along. > > dave henrie > > "Alan Coates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:6QYJ6.10736$[email hidden]... > > > I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona > and > > > have been doing pretty well. > > > > > >

Sadly go online. The patch seems worse there!! Poor Rating Pts now. Getting ICs when hit in the rear by an over zealous racer & even on a pace lap too..phew.. Then now the Latency & Quality are a 100-fold worse then before the patch & much more... I never encountered any patch that degraded a sim' before but this seems to be the case in N4. What next?....Thom_j. "dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jWjK6.2315$[email hidden]... <snipped>

Love em or hate em, patches are always going to be needed for us pc gamers. That's the way of the world now. Thank goodness we have the technology to allow us to get these updates relatively easily. By comparison, if you look at some other games, the N4 patch was really fairly small. It was what, less than 5 mb? Hell, I've seen 15-20 mb patches just to fix major problems with other releases. Games are complicated gang, especially newer ones using newer technology and complicated physics engines. Anyone seen a game come out that didn't need a patch? Perfect out of the box? How long does it take to download and install a patch? I'm not tired of it at all, I would much rather have an update to a current game than to have no updates at all. Developers are really in a no win situation. They get hounded to get their product released. The publisher, usually different than the developer, presses them to get their game released. The public hounds them for release dates and crucifies them when they miss it. Then when it's not perfect in their eye, the get crucified once more. Frankly, I am grateful we have developers such as Papy. I don't know why more developers don't simply move over to the console market for the quick and easy buck. That's where the volume lies. Hardcore simming is a dying breed. Look at what's happened to the flight sim market. I just hope the same doesn't happen to our racing environment. Imagine being stuck with games like Nascar Revolution. So I say yes, keep on patching. I will gladly continue to install any patches put forth. -- Don Burnette D Burnette in N4 Some people do nothing wrong. The problem is, they do nothing. And THAT is wrong. "dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jWjK6.2315$[email hidden]... > It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge > patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch. > If a game is released as a product you BUY you should EXPECT the product to > function correctly.in this case its supposed to be a race car simulator > which the guy has purchased,and it is not functioning as it should. I think > he's entitled to be annoyed. why should he be an un-paid tester? why should > he pay to test ?? . its not a case of a few isolated types of computer > configuration not agreeing with the game,its a basic flaw in game AI. across > the board,no exceptions. > Stop making excuses for the companies who are taking us for suckers. I dont > know of any other product that you could buy where people would be willing > to put up with crap that does not function in the manner it should. > I'm sick of bloody patches to the extent that I don't even think about > buying a game on release any more.I wait until all the post xmas patches > stop coming then wait some more just to make sure.(it don't always work, are > u listening ROWAN and you chunk of shite Battle of Britain which could have > been so good but you screwed it and did't even bother to fix it). > > So your lawnmower has no blade . tough shit we are having a bit of > difficulty fitting blades to that type of mower,but you keep it until we can > be botherd to put it right for you, > > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:40:31 +0100, "Alan Coates" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona > and > > >have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I have > actually > > >won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine. > > <sniperdesnip> > > > > The AI at Daytona still has it's problems, and indeed, one of those > > problems is that they drive on the grass as you said. > > But the patch improves the AI at all the other tracks.. some people > > think they back off too easily now, I agree somewhat, but I've had > > excellent races now with the AI (full 43 car field), even at a > > nightmare track like Bristol. Before the patch I hated driving against > > the AI, it was like racing with 42 Stevie Wonders on the track. > > > > The list of things that the patch fixes is huge, you can't expect them > > to fix every single problem in the first patch of such a complicated > > sim (or we had to wait for another couple of months for the patch to > > arrive..) > > > > I have full confidence that the remaining problems will also be fixed > > (we're talking about Papy here, right DGF?) so in the meantime enjoy > > the AI at the other tracks and race Daytona online. > > > > Andre > >

On Thu, 10 May 2001 03:19:56 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote: >Sadly go online. The patch seems worse there!! Poor Rating Pts now. >Getting ICs when hit in the rear by an over zealous racer & even on a >pace lap too..phew.. Then now the Latency & Quality are a 100-fold >worse then before the patch & much more... I never encountered any >patch that degraded a sim' before but this seems to be the case in N4. >What next?....Thom_j. Thom, I never heard of these after-patch problems from anyone else, I'm surprised.. L&Q a 100-fold worse? I certainly don't have that problem after the patch.. are you sure it's because of the patch? Maybe you have general connection problems now? Andre > >"dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:jWjK6.2315$[email hidden]... ><snipped> > >

On Wed, 9 May 2001 23:55:48 +0100, "dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge >patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch.<snip> Yesterday I bought the game 'The longest Journey'. As allways, the first thing I do after I installed a game is go to it's website to download the patch(es) To my surprise there was no patch available! This is really unusual. Allmost -every- game thats being released gets a patch. Granted, an adventure is MUCH easier to program bug-free than an advanced racing sim with complicated physics, AI and multiplayer. If this was a perfect world every game should be released without a patch, but people make mistakes, even programmers do. Releasing a sim like N4 or F1RC bug-free is allmost impossible. But I agree with you that some games are being released way too soon, with problems so obvious that you can only wonder how the beta-team missed those errors. The only reason I can think of is the publisher pushing the developers to release the game. N4 should have been postponed untill the AI problems had been fixed, like the patch did (mostly). F1RC should have absolutely been postponed untill the AI and multiplayer were fixed.. no, fixed is not the right word here.. untill the AI and multiplayer actually WORKED. But it's your choice to buy a game immediately after it's release.. Read the reviews after a game is being released, and decide if you want to wait for a patch or not. Andre

"ymenard" wrote: > The thing is, you can't ship a product and expect 100% of the customers to > be satisfied. That is the basic of gaming development, one of the > fundamental rule developers agree with. I'm not sure the developers agree on this, but I do know that the "suits" (read: publishers) *live* by these rules.. and they will continue doing so as long as we - the suckers - accept it. Heck, it will probably get even worse in the future. The big problem with all software tho.. is that we - the customers - gladly accept whatever is thrown at us - without really having any knowledge about what's going on. We put our trust and lives in products that has been developed without ANY warranties, gurantees or set standards. *Anyone* can setup a company and start coding programs is he/she feel like it.... without *ANY* requirements with regards to skill, [goverment] standards, or "policing". Can you *really* trust the guy that code your anti-virus software? - Or even worse.. how about the company that made your accounting systems? Or what about the CAD-system - your life and bread - you use at work... is that made to any standards? Aslong as we accept this and the publishers/developers are making money - I find it hard to believe that the industry will change. -- ed_ -- Note! Return address is *not* my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail mass-distribution company that have bothered me one time to many! Eat this - suckers!

Going back to the original thread. I installed a patch for the Solitude track. Several of the cars were pitted on the Hay Bales at the back end of pit lane) But now when a race starts, the car on the right lane of the first row takes off onto the grass to the right. Because there is a guard rail just past where he swerves away..he gets trapped just up beyond the first turn after crawling along up to a house. dave henrie same kind of problem from the sound of it. "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cYtK6.6161$[email hidden]... > "ymenard" wrote: > > > The thing is, you can't ship a product and expect 100% of the customersto > > be satisfied. That is the basic of gaming development, one of the > > fundamental rule developers agree with. > > I'm not sure the developers agree on this, but I do know that the "suits" > (read: publishers) *live* by these rules.. and they will continue doingso > as long as we - the suckers - accept it. Heck, it will probably get even > worse in the future. > > The big problem with all software tho.. is that we - the customers -gladly > accept whatever is thrown at us - without really having any knowledgeabout

Quoted text (8 lines)

> what's going on. We put our trust and lives in products that has been > developed without ANY warranties, gurantees or set standards. > > *Anyone* can setup a company and start coding programs is he/she feel like > it.... without *ANY* requirements with regards to skill, [goverment] > standards, or "policing". > > Can you *really* trust the guy that code your anti-virus software? - Or

even > worse.. how about the company that made your accounting systems? Or what > about the CAD-system - your life and bread - you use at work... is that > made to any standards? > > Aslong as we accept this and the publishers/developers are making money -I

Quoted text (12 lines)

> find it hard to believe that the industry will change. > > > -- > ed_ > -- > Note! > Return address is *not* my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail > mass-distribution company that have bothered me one time to many! > Eat this - suckers! > >

On Thu, 10 May 2001 12:21:55 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip> >Note! >Return address is *not* my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail >mass-distribution company that have bothered me one time to many! >Eat this - suckers! What and EXCELLENT idea :) Too bad that 'is your computer safe' spammer is using a fake email :( Andre

>"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote > By comparison, if you look at some other games, the N4 patch was really > fairly small. It was what, less than 5 mb? Hell, I've seen 15-20 mbpatches > just to fix major problems with other releases. Hell, I've seen 75+mb patches for some games!!!! :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

On Thu, 10 May 2001 14:26:49 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote >> By comparison, if you look at some other games, the N4 patch was really >> fairly small. It was what, less than 5 mb? Hell, I've seen 15-20 mb >patches >> just to fix major problems with other releases. > >Hell, I've seen 75+mb patches for some games!!!! :)

Yeah, the update for GP2 was even about 400mb!! Andre

Yes I do, as a matter of fact. Papy has fallen well down the ladder in the thoroughness of their testing of late. It's painfully obvious. They used to be number 1 by a wide margin. Now they are just like the rest. Marc. "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EGnK6.2310$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Marc, > > Do you know what is involved in getting things done in a patch? Any > possiblity there could have been more pressing things to fix at first? > Giving Papy's history, unlike some other developers, I feel very confident > they will continue to do nothing but improve N4 for everyone. > Of course, no developer will ever please 100% of the people 100% of the > time. There are some that probably simply should move on to something

else.

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > > -- > Don Burnette > D Burnette in N4 > > Some people do nothing wrong. > The problem is, they do nothing. > And THAT is wrong. > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WZ2K6.3186$h%[email hidden]... > > How could they not know about that (gigantically obvious) issue by now? > We > > need to cross post the other 150 issues that seem to have escaped the > > testers again. > > > > Marc. > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:sr%J6.129593$[email hidden]... > > > From what others have posted here that is one of the next issues

they

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > are > > > going to tackle.(the Daytona cars running onto the grass.) > > > You should cross post this on the Sierra board for N4 and hopefully > Eric > > B > > > or another Papy employee will pass it along. > > > dave henrie > > > "Alan Coates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:6QYJ6.10736$[email hidden]... > > > > I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at

Daytona

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > and > > > > have been doing pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > >

And despite me agreeing with you, I am a big jackass for contributing to the problem. I picked up F1RC two weeks ago based on Ubi's promise of a patch. I knew of the problems, but bought it anyway...what a sucker!! Marc. "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cYtK6.6161$[email hidden]... > "ymenard" wrote: > > > The thing is, you can't ship a product and expect 100% of the customersto > > be satisfied. That is the basic of gaming development, one of the > > fundamental rule developers agree with. > > I'm not sure the developers agree on this, but I do know that the "suits" > (read: publishers) *live* by these rules.. and they will continue doingso > as long as we - the suckers - accept it. Heck, it will probably get even > worse in the future. > > The big problem with all software tho.. is that we - the customers -gladly > accept whatever is thrown at us - without really having any knowledgeabout

Quoted text (8 lines)

> what's going on. We put our trust and lives in products that has been > developed without ANY warranties, gurantees or set standards. > > *Anyone* can setup a company and start coding programs is he/she feel like > it.... without *ANY* requirements with regards to skill, [goverment] > standards, or "policing". > > Can you *really* trust the guy that code your anti-virus software? - Or

even > worse.. how about the company that made your accounting systems? Or what > about the CAD-system - your life and bread - you use at work... is that > made to any standards? > > Aslong as we accept this and the publishers/developers are making money -I

Quoted text (12 lines)

> find it hard to believe that the industry will change. > > > -- > ed_ > -- > Note! > Return address is *not* my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail > mass-distribution company that have bothered me one time to many! > Eat this - suckers! > >

I just hope Sierra aka Papyrus addresses their "degrade" instead of "upgrade" via online.. The connects, spikes, latency quality etc.. are becoming worse daily. The new Point Rating System is worse too.. {as stated in prior post} Thom_j. "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... | Yeah, the update for GP2 was even about 400mb!! | | Andre

I was just about to ask the same thing My connections online have not changed at all since the patch "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (24 lines)

> On Thu, 10 May 2001 03:19:56 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Sadly go online. The patch seems worse there!! Poor Rating Pts now. > >Getting ICs when hit in the rear by an over zealous racer & even on a > >pace lap too..phew.. Then now the Latency & Quality are a 100-fold > >worse then before the patch & much more... I never encountered any > >patch that degraded a sim' before but this seems to be the case in N4. > >What next?....Thom_j. > > Thom, I never heard of these after-patch problems from anyone else, > I'm surprised.. L&Q a 100-fold worse? I certainly don't have that > problem after the patch.. are you sure it's because of the patch? > Maybe you have general connection problems now? > > Andre > > > > >"dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:jWjK6.2315$[email hidden]... > ><snipped> > > > > >

As mentioned above Thom, you are the only person I have heard talk about problems online after the patch. My connections have not changed "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:49AK6.395$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> I just hope Sierra aka Papyrus addresses their "degrade" instead of > "upgrade" via online.. The connects, spikes, latency quality etc.. are > becoming worse daily. The new Point Rating System is worse too.. > {as stated in prior post} Thom_j. > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > | Yeah, the update for GP2 was even about 400mb!! > | > | Andre > >

In my reply post to Andre: Cliff I do hope its me but it seems for some strange reason the "East Coast Mid-Atlantic" Region are encountering this problem frequently now... I can only guess but it maybe within our bandwidth allocation or a problem with our areas cable? I am trying some new 'configurations' via a site Ron A referred me to and hopefully this will clear my problem up but many in NY Lobby 1 {in my/our area} have complained too.. "O" well it will be fixed even if I have to drag my cable company's techs out to fix it!! Grrrrr...lol Cheers Thom_j. "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:y7BK6.148$hq.107@interramp... | As mentioned above Thom, you are the only person I have heard talk about | problems online after the patch. | | My connections have not changed<snipped>

If it is location specific, then it is definately something ISP related. I can tell you though that I personally have not seen any problems. I hope you get it figured out.. I just went though a phase where I could not race online cause of my ISP problems and it sucks trying to get everything fixed. "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cABK6.526$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> In my reply post to Andre: Cliff I do hope its me but it seems for some > strange reason the "East Coast Mid-Atlantic" Region are encountering > this problem frequently now... I can only guess but it maybe within our > bandwidth allocation or a problem with our areas cable? > I am trying some new 'configurations' via a site Ron A referred me to > and hopefully this will clear my problem up but many in NY Lobby 1 > {in my/our area} have complained too.. "O" well it will be fixed even > if I have to drag my cable company's techs out to fix it!! Grrrrr...lol > Cheers Thom_j. > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:y7BK6.148$hq.107@interramp... > | As mentioned above Thom, you are the only person I have heard talk

about > | problems online after the patch. > | > | My connections have not changed > <snipped> > >

This maybe a fact Cliff? I'm waiting for one of my 'huge backup tapes' to be re-formatted and I will go thru every scenario and try to find out if it's me, my ISP or Nascar's online setup. It appears now with all the replies, sadly, it is very plausible it is on my end!! Thank you for you input.. Also thank you one & all who have replied to my odd'ball N4 online problem too! Cheers Thom_j. "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j5CK6.149$hq.51@interramp... | If it is location specific, then it is definately something ISP related. | | I can tell you though that I personally have not seen any problems. Ihope | you get it figured out.. I just went though a phase where I could not race | online cause of my ISP problems and it sucks trying to get everythingfixed. <snipped>

>"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> > >Hell, I've seen 75+mb patches for some games!!!! :) > > Yeah, the update for GP2 was even about 400mb!! /me is laughing out loud for real ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

No That wasn't a patch. it was GP3 Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> On Thu, 10 May 2001 14:26:49 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >>"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> By comparison, if you look at some other games, the N4 patch was really > >> fairly small. It was what, less than 5 mb? Hell, I've seen 15-20 mb > >patches > >> just to fix major problems with other releases. > > > >Hell, I've seen 75+mb patches for some games!!!! :) > > Yeah, the update for GP2 was even about 400mb!! > > Andre

Don Burnette <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PRnK6.2391$[email hidden]... > Love em or hate em, patches are always going to be needed for us pcgamers. > That's the way of the world now. Thank goodness we have the technology to > allow us to get these updates relatively easily. > By comparison, if you look at some other games, the N4 patch was really > fairly small. It was what, less than 5 mb? Hell, I've seen 15-20 mbpatches > just to fix major problems with other releases. > Games are complicated gang, especially newer ones using newer technologyand > complicated physics engines. Anyone seen a game come out that didn't needa > patch? Perfect out of the box? > How long does it take to download and install a patch? I'm not tired of it > at all, I would much rather have an update to a current game than to haveno > updates at all. > Developers are really in a no win situation. They get hounded to get their > product released. The publisher, usually different than the developer, > presses them to get their game released. The public hounds them forrelease

Quoted text (21 lines)

> dates and crucifies them when they miss it. Then when it's not perfect in > their eye, the get crucified once more. > Frankly, I am grateful we have developers such as Papy. I don't know why > more developers don't simply move over to the console market for the quick > and easy buck. That's where the volume lies. Hardcore simming is a dying > breed. Look at what's happened to the flight sim market. I just hope the > same doesn't happen to our racing environment. Imagine being stuck with > games like Nascar Revolution. > So I say yes, keep on patching. I will gladly continue to install any > patches put forth. > > -- > Don Burnette > D Burnette in N4 > > Some people do nothing wrong. > The problem is, they do nothing. > And THAT is wrong. > > > > > >Don , my point is that if after a 'patch' or series of patches you end up

with a good game,why couldn't it just have been worked on a bit longer so its good out of the box,as promised in the advertising and on the box.no other companies are allowed to get away with this sort of behavior. I understand how people feel, you want to play the game now not in six months and we are an extremly impatient bunch,half the 'fun' of playing computer games is that there is always somthing new around the corner,unfortunatly this tendancy is bieng exploited by games publishers.we just seem to go along with it and accept it. If your favorite band released a CD with a few tracks containing no Bass or drums or whatever with the promise that in 6 months or whenever they would release the patched version with all the tracks completed would you buy the CD now or in 6 months???..you'd think they were taking the piss, well I would anyway,but I'm me and can't really speak for you. I love GPL but I cant wait for WORLD SPORTS CARS to come out. I dont care how long it takes them as long as its good (for me) and it works with no hassle. waiting 6 -12 months for a game to attain a playable status kind of takes the shine off it a lot, especialy if you have been looking forward to playing it for 18+ months . > >

In article <49AK6.395$[email hidden]>, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> writes: >I just hope Sierra aka Papyrus addresses their "degrade" instead of >"upgrade" via online.. The connects, spikes, latency quality etc.. are >becoming worse daily. The new Point Rating System is worse too.. >{as stated in prior post} Thom_j. If you don't run the patch, can you still get online? Or, does it force you into it(a la Diablo 2 BattleNet)? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> On Wed, 9 May 2001 23:55:48 +0100, "dirk simpson" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge > >patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch. > <snip> > > Yesterday I bought the game 'The longest Journey'. > As allways, the first thing I do after I installed a game is go to > it's website to download the patch(es) > To my surprise there was no patch available! > (cut) I'm copying u.

(I wish i could get back into deja com i cant get used to using outlook express for news groups.) Andre, Wow, that is unusual.I assume the adventure game works OK. I find them quite difficult to play over the top of a steering wheel. I very much doubt the actual game coder or beta testers get any say at all on when a game is relesed, if its prior to XMAS its definatly going out the door by december 15th with few exceptions. The up side of doing it my way is 3 fold 1. you usualy get it cheaper. 2. you can usually get the patch(es) 3.Your masivly expensive computer and grafix card gets a slightly longer lifespan (usable life like high frame rates) because older games always go good on new machines. I know I will need faster machine to play WORLD SPORTS CARS as I am sure my PII450/voodoo 3000 steam driven machine will not be fast enough.(plus some of the newer demos like OP flashpoint and even Z steel soldiers are making my 450 behave like a 3 bead abacus)

On Fri, 11 May 2001 02:12:10 +0100, "dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >(I wish i could get back into deja com i cant get used to using outlook >express for news groups.) Imho deja sucks, and I find Outlook Express totally impossible to read newsgroups. I can recommend Free Agent (http://www.forteinc.com), it's FREE and it's good :) >Andre, > Wow, that is unusual.I assume the adventure game works OK. I >find them quite difficult to play over the top of a steering wheel. Lol :) Andre

thanx for the tip Andre. Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> On Fri, 11 May 2001 02:12:10 +0100, "dirk simpson" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >(I wish i could get back into deja com i cant get used to using outlook > >express for news groups.) > > Imho deja sucks, and I find Outlook Express totally impossible to read > newsgroups. I can recommend Free Agent (http://www.forteinc.com), it's > FREE and it's good :) > > >Andre, > > Wow, that is unusual.I assume the adventure game works OK.

I > >find them quite difficult to play over the top of a steering wheel. > > Lol :) > > Andre Thanx for the tip Andre.

While I hear your frustrations I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Creating a music CD is about 1000 times easier than creating a software program as complicated as N4 that is suppose to run a 1000 different computer setups that are changing as fast as Papy can code new updates for them. Imagine if the CD manufacture had to deal with 1000 different combinations of CD players with no standards. I guarantee you they would have major problems. In order to create the perfect or near perfect software you are talking about it would take a massive testing and programming department and three or more years of development time. You would either need to sell a gazillion copies to make up for that or charge $1000 a copy. I don't see either of those things happening, so we get the best they can make with what they have for $40. To be honest I didn't think N4 was that bad anyway. Perfect no, but fun and worth money...definitely. Tom "dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mIGK6.5353$[email hidden]... > > > > > > >Don , my point is that if after a 'patch' or series of patches you endup

Quoted text (8 lines)

> with a good game,why couldn't it just have been worked on a bit longer so > its good out of the box,as promised in the advertising and on the box.no > other companies are allowed to get away with this sort of behavior. > > I understand how people feel, you want to play the game now not in six > months and we are an extremly impatient bunch,half the 'fun' of playing > computer games is that there is always somthing new around the > corner,unfortunatly this tendancy is bieng exploited by games

publishers.we > just seem to go along with it and accept it. > > If your favorite band released a CD with a few tracks containing no Bassor > drums or whatever with the promise that in 6 months or whenever they would > release the patched version with all the tracks completed would you buythe > CD now or in 6 months???..you'd think they were taking the piss, well I > would anyway,but I'm me and can't really speak for you. > > I love GPL but I cant wait for WORLD SPORTS CARS to come out. I dont care > how long it takes them as long as its good (for me) and it works with no > hassle. waiting 6 -12 months for a game to attain a playable status kindof > takes the shine off it a lot, especialy if you have been looking forwardto > playing it for 18+ months . > > > > > >

."dirk simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mIGK6.5353$[email hidden]... > > >Don , my point is that if after a 'patch' or series of patches you endup

Quoted text (8 lines)

> with a good game,why couldn't it just have been worked on a bit longer so > its good out of the box,as promised in the advertising and on the box.no > other companies are allowed to get away with this sort of behavior. > > I understand how people feel, you want to play the game now not in six > months and we are an extremly impatient bunch,half the 'fun' of playing > computer games is that there is always somthing new around the > corner,unfortunatly this tendancy is bieng exploited by games

publishers.we > just seem to go along with it and accept it. > > If your favorite band released a CD with a few tracks containing no Bassor > drums or whatever with the promise that in 6 months or whenever they would > release the patched version with all the tracks completed would you buythe > CD now or in 6 months???..you'd think they were taking the piss, well I > would anyway,but I'm me and can't really speak for you. > > I love GPL but I cant wait for WORLD SPORTS CARS to come out. I dont care > how long it takes them as long as its good (for me) and it works with no > hassle. waiting 6 -12 months for a game to attain a playable status kindof > takes the shine off it a lot, especialy if you have been looking forwardto > playing it for 18+ months . Well, I will lay you dollars to doughnuts, if and when WSC is ever released, it will have bugs/issues that need to be addressed in a patch. I just don't think you'll ever see pc games come out of the box "perfect" anymore. Too many variables and complications. Doesn't make it right or wrong. Don Burnette

>Don , my point is that if after a 'patch' or series of patches you end >up with a good game,why couldn't it just have been worked on a bit longer so >> its good out of the box,aspromised in the advertising and on the box.noother companies are allowed to get away with this sort of behavior. >> Your point is well taken, but unfortunately it appears that the reality iswe are all BETA testers to a certain extent. I guess the realities of software development are that bugs and problems will always be present. The best we can hope for is a timely response to our issues and a significant improvement in future patches. In fact, from the developer's point-of-view it makes some sense. How can they know before release what elelments will guanrantee a "perfect" simulation? Feedback from players will determine what is good. IMO PAPYRUS is pretty good. Look at the opposite - F1RC from UBISOFT. There are some really good elements to it except for what appears to be by consensus a horrible AI. Does UBISOFT correct this? Well, not yet. Has this hurt this game? I think so, I personally won't buy it simply because of the lack of timely support. I guess if this is a significant issue we as buyers can always vote with our dollars - or lack there of.

>Marc, > >Do you know what is involved in getting things done in a patch? Any >possiblity there could have been more pressing things to fix at first? >Giving Papy's history, unlike some other developers, I feel very confident >they will continue to do nothing but improve N4 for everyone. I agree. And, isn't N4 one of the top 10 best selling games right now? I thought I saw that somewhere. -pw >Of course, no developer will ever please 100% of the people 100% of the >time. There are some that probably simply should move on to something else.