Back To N2003

After hearing a few of the complaints here at ras and RSC, I've decided to dump rFactor and go back to N2003/N2002/N4. A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all anyone should need......year......after year.....after year...... -- David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> After hearing a few of the complaints here at ras and RSC, I've > decided to dump rFactor and go back to N2003/N2002/N4. > > A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all > anyone should need......year......after year.....after year...... > -- > David G Fisher

I'm with you DGF. But now we have to fight over which of the two tracks to drive at.(notice I avoided the term race due to your superiority ontrack) dh

"David G Fisher" wrote... > After hearing a few of the complaints here at ras and RSC, I've decided > to dump rFactor and go back to N2003/N2002/N4. Wise choice. > A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all > anyone should need......year......after year.....after year...... It helps if you run the ovals too. More diversity... But, all kidding aside, yes: I'll happily continue running GPL and NR2003 as long as there are likeminded drivers to compete against. Jan. =---

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > After hearing a few of the complaints here at ras and RSC, I've decided to > dump rFactor and go back to N2003/N2002/N4. > I have no complaints about rFactor. In fact, I like the game. People expect too much and whine too much. The very fact that some people preferred LFS S2's AI to rFactor only shows that many folks know little of what they are talking about. rFactor is not perfect, and if anyone expected it to be then they should be living in a dream world. That the game was rushed, I'd have to say, possibly. Once the mods start coming in and all then the game will improve. N2003 is a fine game, but racing stock cars is not my cup o' tea. I prefer open-wheeled. > A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all anyone > should need......year......after year.....after year...... > -- > David G Fisher > I seriously do not think the cars in N2003 are real, nor are the tracks, are they? :) Alanb

David G Fisher wrote: > A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all anyone > should need......year......after year.....after year...... There's really no need for trolling. Maybe there are people here who are being blatantly assanine about rfactor, but *I* sure as hell wouldn't redirect my dislike of a game onto the people who enjoy it. Also, N2003 has 8 separate physics models last time I checked. Granted, I only use 4 of them on a regular basis. :)

Yeah, I also missed the part about 2 tracks. Here's the way my copy of NASCAR 2003 is currently setup: I can race these cars: Sauber C9 Jaguar XJR-9 Toyota CV88 Mazda 787B On these tracks during daytime or night (of course there are 100's more, but these are my favorites for quality, accuracy, and personal interest - as well as for being active, modern circuits): Barber Motorsports Park Daytona Laguna Seca Lime Rock Park Lime Rock Park (Chicane) Magny Cours Mosport Phillip Island Portland Pukekohe Sears Point Sebring Shangai Silverstone Spa Suzuka Trois-Rivieres Road Atlanta Watkins Glen Watkins Glen (Short/Chicane) And I can do this against 42 other humans on a co-located server with a modest amount of bandwidth. Using physics that sportscar drivers who I personally admire have anonymously praised for their "feel". Unless the number of available tracks for F1C have changed in the last 3 months, there are far more tracks available for NASCAR 2003 and for the most part they are of vastly superior quality (not necessarily accuracy, I don't think many tracks in either sim are particularly accurate). Just my opinion, not a personal flame. Lots of people love F1C and RFactor and I respect that, I just have fairly clear, non fan-boy reasons for not liking them...and trust me, I've tried. I just reinstalled F1C, V8SC, SCC, PTC, WSGT, RH99/03/04, F1-95 for about the 8th time this year in order to try and enjoy them and they just don't do it for me (I do think V8SC is an incredible piece of work however). If I didn't get horrible stutter in the GTR demo (no idea why - it's not present in any other ISI title, the rfactor demo, or GTL) I'd probably buy it and try to give it a chance.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> David G Fisher wrote: > >> A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all anyone >> should need......year......after year.....after year...... > > There's really no need for trolling. Maybe there are people here who > are being blatantly assanine about rfactor, but *I* sure as hell > wouldn't redirect my dislike of a game onto the people who enjoy it. > > Also, N2003 has 8 separate physics models last time I checked. > Granted, I only use 4 of them on a regular basis. :)

The point I was making (thought it was obvious) is that some are complaining that the game shipped from the developer without real tracks and cars. For RC drivers, the Papy series had only one real car and just two (the same tracks) in at least three straight releases. So much variety..... Anyway, Z in rFactor is an Audi, the trainer is one of these http://www.skipbarber.com/default.aspx and the Howston is an Aston Martin. Whether it says so on the skin is irrelevant to me. -- David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote: > Whether it says so on the skin is irrelevant to me. I agree. :) I have no problems driving unlicensed cars, obviously, as I love GTP 1.1, aside from wishing the Toyota 88CV/Mazda 787B would be replaced by a Porsche 962/Nissan ZX-T combo, so we'd have the 4 dominant cars from 1988, and maybe my 4 favorites ever from that class. What I do care about is licensed tracks. I've posted it here before, but I think a really good compromise in regards to licensing would be professionally modelled and fully licensed tracks coupled with "fake" real cars. I have a suspicion that's the direction Kaemmer may go in, or at least (as a fan) that's what I hope. Fake Barber Dodges zooming around a Papy-quality Watkins Glen or PWF-quality Mosport would make me much happier than racing real ones around fictional tracks. I'm being snotty, but having real, accurate tracks is one of the things I absolutely require in a circuit-based sim, on par with physics that have a good "feel" and more important than any other factor, even AI/multiplayer/interface/etc. I'm more interested in feeling like I'm racing a car, whatever formula/make/model, around Road America than racing a Corvette around DigiRing v3.1.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1125976957.657322.19200 @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com: > I have no problems driving unlicensed cars, obviously, as I love GTP > 1.1, aside from wishing the Toyota 88CV/Mazda 787B would be replaced by > a Porsche 962/Nissan ZX-T combo, so we'd have the 4 dominant cars from > 1988, and maybe my 4 favorites ever from that class. Jason did you ever look into the Group C mod for F1c? That has Mazda, and Porches and Jags and AAR EAgles and Neesans and some I've never heard of. 3 service paks full of Group C / Imsa cars and more on the way with SP4. Each with it's own physics and characteristics. dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote: > Jason did you ever look into the Group C mod for F1c? Yeah. The tracks and cars are really well modelled, but I'm not impressed with the driving. :( It's a really awesome 3-d car museum tho.

David G Fisher wrote: > After hearing a few of the complaints here at ras and RSC, I've decided to > dump rFactor and go back to N2003/N2002/N4. > > A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all anyone > should need......year......after year.....after year...... Funny, I've just sold both of my N2003 copies (for $40 each, thank you Ebay!) rFactor offers one thing that all the papy games couldn't, believable suspension physics. All the N2003 mods have felt underdamped, yet jouncy. The most recent sportscar mod only accentuated the shortcomings in the Papy code. Real GTP cars don't bounce down the road like a kangaroo on speed. With N2003, you can have a car that handles precicely, or you can have traction over the bumps. You cannot have both. People drive around with 1/1 rear dampers and sacked suspension because anything harder simply causes the tires to act as huge undamped springs. Boing...boing...boing. No thanks. rFactor is much more raw/buggy than I anticipated, but I'm going to stick it out for a while. Racing the OW trainers is great fun, akin to F2/3 races in GPL. It really makes you think about lines, precise brake points, etc. Miss an apex by two feet, and the person behind you WILL pass you on the following straight. FWIW, I like that. -Greg

"Greg" wrote... >> <snip> > <snip> > The most recent sportscar mod only accentuated the shortcomings > in the Papy code. Read: the impossibility to change the hard-coded, stock car tyre model. > Real GTP cars don't bounce down the road like a kangaroo on > speed. With N2003, you can have a car that handles precicely, > or you can have traction over the bumps. You cannot have both. > People drive around with 1/1 rear dampers and sacked > suspension because anything harder simply causes the tires to act > as huge undamped springs. Boing...boing...boing. No thanks. Finally someone talks straight about the GTP mod: same basic problem as TA mod. Thank you for saving me time and effort. Jan. =---

On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 23:07:48 -0400, David G Fisher wrote: > http://www.skipbarber.com/default.aspx and the Howston is an Aston Martin. Damn, I had the feeling I'd seen that car before, but the color looked unfamiliar in red ;) Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Jan Verschueren wrote: > Read: the impossibility to change the hard-coded, stock car tyre model. Except that Team Redline did exactly that. Previous poster wrote: > > People drive around with 1/1 rear dampers and sacked > > suspension because anything harder simply causes the tires to act > > as huge undamped springs. Boing...boing...boing. No thanks. 1. you can't run 1/1 dampers in GTP. 2. in CUP/CTS/GNS/PTA none of the guys who are fast do that on road courses. 3. the ideal suspension setup in ISI sims is fully soft springs, fully soft bump dampers, and fully stiff rebound dampers. While this is the way to achieve TOP SPEED at a place like Le Mans in N2003, it's not ideal for the the handling of the car.

On 5 Sep 2005 20:58:35 -0700, "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Dave Henrie wrote: > >> Jason did you ever look into the Group C mod for F1c? > >Yeah. The tracks and cars are really well modelled, but I'm not >impressed with the driving. :( It's a really awesome 3-d car museum >tho.

Yeah, the handling is world's different in GTP (i.e. much more controllable, esp. at low speeds, tho GTP 1.0 also had low speed handling issues).

"jason moyer" wrote... > > Except that Team Redline did exactly that. I was led to believe the properties of the tyres (grip, slipangle curve, etc. ...) can indeed be changed, but not the way it is modelled, i.e. how it interacts with the chassis and the road. I.o.w. I was told one could feed in data for any tyre, but it would still act like a stock car tyre in the game. If that's not correct, I'll put the mod back on my "to do list". Jan. =---

> After hearing a few of the complaints here at ras and RSC, I've decided to dump rFactor and go back to N2003/N2002/N4. > A sim with the same real car on the same two real RC tracks is all anyone should need......year......after > year.....after year...... And online its the same two track, Daytona and Talladega (unless you count Daytona Night as a separate track). These tracks are the most popular online, because it takes the least skill (no low line rule, pitting and getting into a draft right after pitting determines who wins, pole sitter rarely wins), or team play.

Jan Verschueren wrote: > I was led to believe the properties of the tyres (grip, slipangle curve, > etc. ...) can indeed be changed, but not the way it is modelled, i.e. how it > interacts with the chassis and the road. Don't the properties of the tires define the way it interacts with the chassis and the road?

"jason moyer" wrote... > Don't the properties of the tires define the way it interacts > with the chassis and the road? It would if the model in the game was generic, which I'm not sure it is. Jan. =---

Jan Verschueren wrote: > It would if the model in the game was generic, which I'm not sure it is. I'm not sure how you'd come to that conclusion, as GTP is the only thing available for N2003 that doesn't use the stock car tire model.

"jason moyer" wrote... >> <snip> > I'm not sure how you'd come to that conclusion, as GTP is the > only thing available for N2003 that doesn't use the stock car tire > model. The simulators used in racing are tyre/series-specific and those aren't even real time.... Jan. =---

Jan Verschueren wrote: > The simulators used in racing are tyre/series-specific and those aren't even > real time.... Unless you've heard it from Dave Kaemmer the person who did the physics for the 1.1 version of the GTP mod, anything you've heard about the tire model in N2003 is fiction. Saying N2003 is hard-coded for stock car tires is like saying F1C is hard coded for F1 tires and RBR is hard coded for Rally Car tires and none of that is true.

jason moyer wrote: > Unless you've heard it from Dave Kaemmer the person who did the physics Woops, missing an "or" there. :D

jason moyer wrote:

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> Jan Verschueren wrote: > > > The simulators used in racing are tyre/series-specific and those aren't even > > real time.... > > Unless you've heard it from Dave Kaemmer the person who did the physics > for the 1.1 version of the GTP mod, anything you've heard about the > tire model in N2003 is fiction. > > Saying N2003 is hard-coded for stock car tires is like saying F1C is > hard coded for F1 tires and RBR is hard coded for Rally Car tires and > none of that is true.

I'd just like to say that I'd be surprised if they *weren't* hardcoded, at least to some extent. You just don't have the processor power on a desktop machine to do a proper tyre simulation, in which you could just change some variables to get a stock car tyre, an F1 tyre, a gravel rally tyre, an studded rally tyre, a dragster tyre... It's a lot more than just altering a few slip curves in an ini file... but that's all you can do on a desktop PC.

Rehashed NetKar :P Uwe Sch�rkamp enlightened us with:

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> On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 23:07:48 -0400, David G Fisher wrote: >> http://www.skipbarber.com/default.aspx and the Howston is an Aston >> Martin. > > Damn, I had the feeling I'd seen that car before, but the color looked > unfamiliar in red ;) > > Cheers, uwe > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

I never liked the GTP mod either. Something is VERY wrong with the grip model. It's grip, grip, grip, grip, chirp, she's gone! -Larry "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2ueTe.187310$[email hidden]...

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> "Greg" wrote... > Finally someone talks straight about the GTP mod: same basic problem as TA > mod. Thank you for saving me time and effort. > > Jan. > =--- > >