Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS

From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 Message-ID: <[email hidden]> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the only thing worth a crap to play. Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to what they call "wrecking". here's their rules: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we will no longer accept reports from that individual. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to race their game online was not good business practice and bad morally). So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay from which they banned me from. As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! here's what they call me a wrecker from: As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the same area trying to get out of the way of each other. So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his car!!! Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was out to wreck him intentionally. With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to get... but they don't see it that way I guess. Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing online, for good. I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They responded again rudely against that. I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar game just to race online. If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? email papy's manager at [email hidden] thanks for your time! BH Dodgefan!

"B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play.

Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept. I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of the view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rules that punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects the way you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your favourite game online for that, would it ? *This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arses of themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special needs" could be created for them !

Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there is no mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product which you payed for? "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (145 lines)

> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you being out there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement in incidents during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came right across the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is alittle closer to the truth. -- Darrin Stevens www.Stevens-Racing.com www.TeamECR.com www.SimRaceCar.com www.Thomas-SuperWheel.com "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you being out > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement in incidents > during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the > backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came right across > the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is alittle > closer to the truth. >

Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. Without seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the other. I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this. Many times, a person may just be having a bad racing day. I have personally never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I couldn't drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the back-strech wall at dega. On those days, I have sometimes been accused of intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving because I know better. The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those league races if the server is reguistered on WON. IMHO (and within the context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game. I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because all it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver). I wonder how many other people feel the same way. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Unfortunate, but the main rule is "hold your line" whether it be high or low. Papy can only go by what they have in the way of a replay. "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 Message-ID: <[email hidden]> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the only thing worth a crap to play. Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to what they call "wrecking". here's their rules: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we will no longer accept reports from that individual. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to race their game online was not good business practice and bad morally). So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay from which they banned me from. As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! here's what they call me a wrecker from: As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the same area trying to get out of the way of each other. So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his car!!! Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was out to wreck him intentionally. With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to get... but they don't see it that way I guess. Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing online, for good. I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They responded again rudely against that. I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar game just to race online. If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? email papy's manager at [email hidden] thanks for your time! BH Dodgefan!

If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 and the leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across the track in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to you? I'm not saying it is right, but they only have a replay to review and someones complaint. It's unfortunate but if they are going to clean up their service thats what needs to be done. "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9m82ii$rt36$[email hidden]... "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play.

Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept. I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of the view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rules that punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects the way you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your favourite game online for that, would it ? *This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arses of themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special needs" could be created for them !

As always John there is no perfect way to police something like this. There should be some way to arbitrate a decision like this where the suspended racer can appeal to a board(of fellow peers) that would review the circumstances and listen to recommendations from other members of the league the individual is in. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you being out > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement inincidents > during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the > backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came rightacross > the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is alittle > closer to the truth. > Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. Without seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the other. I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this. Many times, a person may just be having a bad racing day. I have personally never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I couldn't drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the back-strech wall at dega. On those days, I have sometimes been accused of intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving because I know better. The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those league races if the server is reguistered on WON. IMHO (and within the context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game. I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because all it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver). I wonder how many other people feel the same way. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

NO! Papy is of the view that if you intentionally wreck others, you don't get to play. If you are just a crappy driver you will not get banned. Vintook "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9m82ii$rt36$[email hidden]...

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> > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept. > I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being > able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of

the > view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky > enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rulesthat > punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes > there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects theway > you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us > at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your > favourite game online for that, would it ? > > *This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arsesof > themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special > needs" could be created for them ! > >

HAHAHAH. GOOD. One less wrecker to have to deal with. Vintook "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (145 lines)

> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

The problem with parking it when damaged is the stupid ranking system. Not sure of what the poster did or didn't do, but if it was a genuine mistake rather than intentional wrecking he shouldn't (IMHO) be banned from racing on Sierra.com. -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers> "Darrin Stevens" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you being out > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement in incidents > during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the > backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came right across > the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is alittle > closer to the truth. > > -- > > Darrin Stevens > www.Stevens-Racing.com > www.TeamECR.com > www.SimRaceCar.com > www.Thomas-SuperWheel.com > >

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:35:19 +0100, "Carol Bekker" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there is no >mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then >surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product >which you payed for? I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

On the other hand, I am not sure whether the free matching service Sierra provides is considered as a part of the deal. -Gregor Type74 wrote: > > I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no > legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

They have just disallowed racing NR4 on WON correct? IIRC there is nothing stopping him from running races thru direct IP connections.. This may not be covered in NR4 license, but I'm sure they have something in the WON service usage that states anything unbecoming to the WON service or users will result in an immediate ban from the service.. which, IMHO they have every right do to.. But then again, there is a line between intential wrecking and just a bad day or bad race.. -Jacob PS.. Of course, IMHO, using any vuglar language should result in a ban... But thats just me... "Type74" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:35:19 +0100, "Carol Bekker" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there isno > >mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then > >surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product > >which you payed for? > > I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no > legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

[email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote:

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> The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking".

<clipped>

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :(

Personally, I'm glad to see papy doing something, although I believe they may have gone to far. Maybe they should have simply banned that individual from their servers rather than banning them from the entire service... That's a judgment call. When you were given notice that you were banned,were you also given notice concerning the appeals process? I've checked their site, briefly, and don't find any link to an appeals process, the 'reporting' process is quite clear. The only things I see wrong with this process, is that they ban you from more than just their servers, might not be a clear appeals process and the same person can be acting as judge, jury and exectutioner. -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

Righto, thought it must be something like that. "Jacob Butner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9m8i3q$ah43$[email hidden]... > They have just disallowed racing NR4 on WON correct? IIRC there isnothing > stopping him from running races thru direct IP connections.. This may not > be covered in NR4 license, but I'm sure they have something in the WON > service usage that states anything unbecoming to the WON service or users > will result in an immediate ban from the service.. which, IMHO they have > every right do to.. But then again, there is a line between intential > wrecking and just a bad day or bad race..

Hogwash. Under common law all businesses have the legal right to protect their assets and the rest of their customers from the actions of customers that are behaveing in a manner that is designed to damage those assets and decrease the pleasure of the remainder of the customers. For instance: a green fee permit for a golf course does not give the right to damage the greens or interfer with the enjoyment of the course by other golfers even if those prohibitions are not explicitly printed on the green fee ticket. Your argument regarding the legalities of the situation would be laughed out of court. Dav-Erb "Type74" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:35:19 +0100, "Carol Bekker" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there isno > >mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then > >surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product > >which you payed for? > > I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no > legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

Why don't I stop racing when I have a severely damaged car? Because I'm a real racer... and with the rating system Papy designed, we all want every point we can get. If I wanted to wreck the field... I would have not let 30 cars pass my cleanly. I do admit it was my fault...it was due to a delayed reaction time on my part AND the leader going much faster than me. All in all... he did not wreck and he kept on going as fast as he did before. There seriously could be major legal issues here if one wanted to get that involved...because what if for instance I had paid for a server to start up my own league and then become banned? Could you sue for this? What about the fact that they CANNOT prove that I was "intentionally wrecking" the guy like the rule is stated. How about the fact there was never a wreck? Prob some interesting stuff there... oh well But anyways, I appreciate everyone's opinions on this... i knew there would be some not believe me... of course those are the racers that are still racing online and think... 'well i'll never get banned so i don't have to worry about it'... well i thought that too. If anyone wants the replay I got it.... They have even banned me from the Nascar 4 Forum on the www.papy.com webpage If it's not too much trouble... email papy at [email hidden] and tell them what you think. Whether it be about banning me under their assumption I'm am a a wrecker, or banning in general. Anything you can do to help me (and all the others that are, or will be banned when they do not wreck intentionally) PLEASE do! thanks so much! God Bless :) Brandon Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<H5Ph7.188773$[email hidden]>...

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> HAHAHAH. GOOD. One less wrecker to have to deal with. > > Vintook > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > > what they call "wrecking". > > > > here's their rules: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > > morally). > > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > > from which they banned me from. > > > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > > car!!! > > > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > > out to wreck him intentionally. > > > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > > online, for good. > > > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > > responded again rudely against that. > > > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > > game just to race online. > > > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > > > > thanks for your time! > > > > BH > > Dodgefan!

The only problem I have with that judgement was it was based on one race. I mean, come on, one race? He was involved in 2 incidents? A wrecker is someone who goes out and repeatedly does that every race. I would hope that they would not base banning someone for life on the basis of one race! Hell, Tywee would have been banned before, errrr, hey! Nevermind! J/K. Anyways, it should not be based on 1 replay IMO. With warping, you all know replays can be different. What if the dude had a bad connect and what he saw was a tick off from what everyone else saw in that one race? 1 race? Seems harsh "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (145 lines)

> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

In article <I4Ph7.188756$[email hidden]>, "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote: > NO! Papy is of the view that if you intentionally wreck others, you don't > get to play. If you are just a crappy driver you will not get banned. I dunno. I suck pretty bad. (That's why I rarely play onine ...) But when I wreck (usually totally by accident because I overdrove the car) it certainly LOOKS intentional. (And the other computer users can't see the "OOPS" or "OH DAMN" look on my face!)

Papy said they were going to trry and clean it up. What I would be concerned about is the guy who complained to get you banned. You're getting pissed at totally the wrong people about this. -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

No, but they should see the apology from your kb........... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash mustang <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <I4Ph7.188756$[email hidden]>, > "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > NO! Papy is of the view that if you intentionally wreck others, you don't > > get to play. If you are just a crappy driver you will not get banned. > > > I dunno. I suck pretty bad. (That's why I rarely play onine ...) But > when I wreck (usually totally by accident because I overdrove the car) > it certainly LOOKS intentional. (And the other computer users can't see > the "OOPS" or "OH DAMN" look on my face!)

What leagues don't have their own way of handling incidents? I can see being banned from apickup race scenario, but not league play, EVERY LEAGUE I've ever seen has it's own rules and protest/incident handling. If it was a league race as it seems it was, the LEAGUE should have handled it.... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Mike Grandy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z0Ph7.355783$[email hidden]... > As always John there is no perfect way to police something like this. There > should be some way to arbitrate a decision like this where the suspended > racer can appeal to a board(of fellow peers) that would review the > circumstances and listen to recommendations from other members of the league > the individual is in. > > Mike Grandy > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you being out > > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one > > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement in > incidents > > during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the > > backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came right > across > > the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is alittle > > closer to the truth. > > > > Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as > intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low > line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, > that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. Without > seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the > other. > > I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this. Many > times, a person may just be having a bad racing day. I have personally > never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I couldn't > drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the back-strech > wall at dega. On those days, I have sometimes been accused of > intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving > because I know better. > > The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those > league races if the server is reguistered on WON. IMHO (and within the > context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game. > > I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because all > it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not > someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver). I wonder how many > other people feel the same way. > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > ========================================================= > >

Not sure what that has to do with what I said but you are correct in the fact that most leagues have their own arbitration procedures. The problem is, how do you distinguish between a pickup race or a leagure race on Sierra.com. I sympathise with him but you have to realize that Papy has more to lose by not doing something about the wrecking than the few customers it will lose due to people that just buy it to intentionally wreck others. I applaud Papy for trying to give us all a better experience and to be honest, I gave up pickup racing for that matter. But my 150+ LPI wouldn't be if I raced pickup races, it would be more like a 15 LPI. My idea of an arbitration board would solve the problem of people being banned for unfortunate incidents. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:g5Sh7.25935$[email hidden]... What leagues don't have their own way of handling incidents? I can see being banned from apickup race scenario, but not league play, EVERY LEAGUE I've ever seen has it's own rules and protest/incident handling. If it was a league race as it seems it was, the LEAGUE should have handled it.... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Mike Grandy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z0Ph7.355783$[email hidden]... > As always John there is no perfect way to police something like this. There > should be some way to arbitrate a decision like this where the suspended > racer can appeal to a board(of fellow peers) that would review the > circumstances and listen to recommendations from other members of the league

Quoted text (15 lines)

> the individual is in. > > Mike Grandy > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you being

out > > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one

Quoted text (52 lines)

> > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement in > incidents > > during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the > > backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came right > across > > the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is alittle > > closer to the truth. > > > > Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as > intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low > line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, > that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. Without > seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the > other. > > I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this. Many > times, a person may just be having a bad racing day. I have personally > never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I couldn't > drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the back-strech > wall at dega. On those days, I have sometimes been accused of > intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving > because I know better. > > The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those > league races if the server is reguistered on WON. IMHO (and within the > context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game. > > I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because all > it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not > someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver). I wonder how many > other people feel the same way. > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > ========================================================= > >

[email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> There seriously could be major legal issues here if one wanted to get > that involved...because what if for instance I had paid for a server > to start up my own league and then become banned? Could you sue for > this? What about the fact that they CANNOT prove that I was > "intentionally wrecking" the guy like the rule is stated. How about > the fact there was never a wreck? Prob some interesting stuff > there... oh well

I doubt you have a case. You are racing on their servers and using their service. They have the right to serve who they wish so long as they don't descrimate based on religion, race, sex or sexual orientation. Mind you, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

I read this entire thread and this was the only post I could find regarding "holding the line". Two points, all IMO of course. ;) The leaders thought the right thing to do was go low. "B. Hilton" (I suspect in all innocence) thought he was doing the proper thing in going low. Are there establish, posted rules as to which is correct in NASCAR online racing? Somebody made a mistake. The "pool rules" should have that situation established before the race starts. That would go a long way in avoiding turmoil. Only one comment on the legal, ethical, political, or any other "..al" area. Seems in an earnest attempt to clean-up the area they went too far the other direction without some form of a "three-strike's" rule or some appeal process. The "wonderful world of warping" with online sims can be the problem in itself. If my first point and the expectations of drivers was clearly established, I suspect it would minimize the need for the second. "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fVOh7.355778$[email hidden]...

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| Unfortunate, but the main rule is "hold your line" whether it be high or | low. Papy can only go by what they have in the way of a replay. | | "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:[email hidden]... | From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) | Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar | Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! | NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 | Message-ID: <[email hidden]> | | The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from | racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they | will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. | The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the | only thing worth a crap to play. | | Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 | Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to | what they call "wrecking". | | here's their rules: | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 | Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* | | *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider | reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. | | In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue | to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if | all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will | need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT | the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled | drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". | | Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing | these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not | incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue | this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is | legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we | will no longer accept reports from that individual. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | | Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to | race their game online was not good business practice and bad | morally). | So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY | LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. | Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... | where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and | LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which | that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. | | Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the | emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay | from which they banned me from. | | As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS | TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons | #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps | and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the | field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every | car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. | #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! | | here's what they call me a wrecker from: | As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin | in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me | (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the | racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove | to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass | me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the | leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them | pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the | same area trying to get out of the way of each other. | So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left | rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him | you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his | car!!! | | Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage | (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a | few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had | to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and | continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over | again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on | turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when | coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the | wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the | frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with | another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. | Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as | before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was | out to wreck him intentionally. | | With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to | go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to | get... but they don't see it that way I guess. | | Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a | new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking | is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the | best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away | from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought | it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once | in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing | online, for good. | | I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to | the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were | still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They | responded again rudely against that. | | I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of | you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem | showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, | although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. | | I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns | me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy | may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. | | Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in | this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive | about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a | pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new | computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb | ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel | and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a | new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... | but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( | | I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, | purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up | through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar | game just to race online. | | If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the | never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email | me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) | | Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? | email papy's manager at [email hidden] | | | thanks for your time! | | BH | Dodgefan! | |

Just go buy another copy its only 50 bucks. Just joking. I would call a lawyer and sue thier ass off, you have been wronged and should be compensated.

I don't believe they are strict, But even if you are wrecking un-intentionally, Maybe you should learn offline before ruining races online. -- Kevin Anderson [email hidden] "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9m82ii$rt36$[email hidden]... > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept. > I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being > able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of the > view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky > enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rules that > punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes > there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects the way > you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us > at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your > favourite game online for that, would it ? > > *This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arses of > themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special > needs" could be created for them ! > >

Hey, Well, i always thought it was generally accepted that the lapper should hold his line, let the overtaking car decide where to go. If the leader can drive worth a crap, he should already be planning on where/how to pass the lapper long before he makes the attempt. Lappers...just hold your line, don't make any dumb last second moves. -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com "guod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5YSh7.3057$[email hidden]... > The leaders thought the right thing to do was go low. "B. Hilton" (I suspect in all innocence) > thought he was doing the proper thing in going low. Are there establish, posted rules as to > which is correct in NASCAR online racing? Somebody made a mistake. The "pool rules" should have > that situation established before the race starts. That would go a long way in avoiding turmoil.

I was under the impression that Papy's "Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking" were strictly for enforcing wreckers on their servers, not the entire Won service. Their webpage says "THIS IS FOR PAPYRUS-OPERATED SERVERS ONLY", so why have they gone so far as to ban him from Won entirely? Doesn't seem right. ---------------- Skotty Flynn http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

>"rrevved_" <[email hidden]> wrote > ROFLMAO!! Hey btw the Derek Smart crusade is going pretty high these days eh? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Yes but by not stopping wreckers the online play is basically broken on Papy servers which means that you are not getting what you *paid* for. I am happy that they are cleaning up the races online. I think after reading the original post they will unban his CDkey. Please don't start suing Papy over this. Dammed if they do Dammed if they don't "Type74" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:35:19 +0100, "Carol Bekker" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there isno > >mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then > >surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product > >which you payed for? > > I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no > legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

Hey I feel for Ya ! Fred feels for Ya too.... http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fredgassit1/classic31.gif -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

If you have consistently bad judgment and take out half the field every time you race, even if it is unintentional, you should be banned IMHO. Some people learn to race online at the expense of others when they could be taking out the AI. Not very nice if you ask me :) "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you beingout > > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more thanone > > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement inincidents > > during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on the > > backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came rightacross

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> > the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is alittle > > closer to the truth. > > > > Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as > intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low > line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, > that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. Without > seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the > other. > > I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this. Many > times, a person may just be having a bad racing day. I have personally > never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I couldn't > drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the back-strech > wall at dega. On those days, I have sometimes been accused of > intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving > because I know better. > > The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those > league races if the server is reguistered on WON. IMHO (and within the > context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game. > > I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because all > it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not > someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver). I wonder how many > other people feel the same way. > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

I believe you are correct here Gregor.. I didnt see the replay but I don't think there is anything on any part of text in Nascar4 that guarantees or associates Sierra.com with the N4 product. But I could be wrong & it won't be the first time either :) "Gregor Veble" wrote:

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| On the other hand, I am not sure whether the free matching service | Sierra provides is considered as a part of the deal. | | -Gregor | | Type74 wrote: | > | > I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no | > legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

You're not Eddie? Damn & I wanted to use your services :) "Eddie Pettit" wrote: | Mind you, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:55:44 +0200, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote: >On the other hand, I am not sure whether the free matching service >Sierra provides is considered as a part of the deal. > >-Gregor > If it says it on the box or manual it is.

Common rule is: "all lappers" Try to always stay high & hold your line. It is basic and typed in chat in every race I go in.. It isnt that unknown! I don't know this situation but the above is what all should do or try to do in a online Nascar 4 race... "Will DeRivera" wrote: | Hey, | | Well, i always thought it was generally accepted that the lapper shouldhold | his line, let the overtaking car decide where to go. If the leader candrive | worth a crap, he should already be planning on where/how to pass thelapper | long before he makes the attempt. Lappers...just hold your line, don'tmake | any dumb last second moves. | -- | In memory of DE, | - Will --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Good points Phil. I think they should in NO way ban someone for one race or even two. -- Sean Higgins Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com Redline BGN Division http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VnRh7.112584$[email hidden]... > The only problem I have with that judgement was it was based on one race. I > mean, come on, one race? He was involved in 2 incidents? A wrecker is > someone who goes out and repeatedly does that every race. I would hope that > they would not base banning someone for life on the basis of one race! Hell, > Tywee would have been banned before, errrr, hey! Nevermind! J/K. Anyways, it > should not be based on 1 replay IMO. With warping, you all know replays can > be different. What if the dude had a bad connect and what he saw was a tick > off from what everyone else saw in that one race? 1 race? Seems harsh > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > > what they call "wrecking". > > > > here's their rules: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > > morally). > > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > > from which they banned me from. > > > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > > car!!! > > > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > > out to wreck him intentionally. > > > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > > online, for good. > > > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > > responded again rudely against that. > > > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > > game just to race online. > > > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > > > > thanks for your time! > > > > BH > > Dodgefan! > >

Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is that important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and Learn! -- Sean Higgins Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com Redline BGN Division http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ "DJR420" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:q9Th7.504315$[email hidden]... > Just go buy another copy its only 50 bucks. Just joking. I would call a > lawyer and sue thier ass off, you have been wronged and should be > compensated. > >

Thats the first rule I learned in online racing, or real racing for that matter. "HOLD YOUR LINE" Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "guod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5YSh7.3057$[email hidden]... I read this entire thread and this was the only post I could find regarding "holding the line". Two points, all IMO of course. ;) The leaders thought the right thing to do was go low. "B. Hilton" (I suspect in all innocence) thought he was doing the proper thing in going low. Are there establish, posted rules as to which is correct in NASCAR online racing? Somebody made a mistake. The "pool rules" should have that situation established before the race starts. That would go a long way in avoiding turmoil. Only one comment on the legal, ethical, political, or any other "..al" area. Seems in an earnest attempt to clean-up the area they went too far the other direction without some form of a "three-strike's" rule or some appeal process. The "wonderful world of warping" with online sims can be the problem in itself. If my first point and the expectations of drivers was clearly established, I suspect it would minimize the need for the second. "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fVOh7.355778$[email hidden]...

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| Unfortunate, but the main rule is "hold your line" whether it be high or | low. Papy can only go by what they have in the way of a replay. | | "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:[email hidden]... | From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) | Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar | Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! | NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 | Message-ID: <[email hidden]> | | The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from | racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they | will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. | The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the | only thing worth a crap to play. | | Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 | Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to | what they call "wrecking". | | here's their rules: | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR® Racing 4 | Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* | | *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider | reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. | | In an effort to give the NASCAR® Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue | to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if | all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will | need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT | the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled | drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". | | Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing | these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not | incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue | this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is | legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we | will no longer accept reports from that individual. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | | Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to | race their game online was not good business practice and bad | morally). | So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY | LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. | Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... | where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and | LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which | that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. | | Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the | emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay | from which they banned me from. | | As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS | TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons | #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps | and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the | field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every | car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. | #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! | | here's what they call me a wrecker from: | As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin | in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me | (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the | racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove | to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass | me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the | leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them | pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the | same area trying to get out of the way of each other. | So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left | rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him | you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his | car!!! | | Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage | (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a | few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had | to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and | continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over | again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on | turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when | coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the | wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the | frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with | another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. | Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as | before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was | out to wreck him intentionally. | | With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to | go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to | get... but they don't see it that way I guess. | | Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a | new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking | is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the | best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away | from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought | it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once | in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing | online, for good. | | I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to | the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were | still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They | responded again rudely against that. | | I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of | you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem | showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, | although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. | | I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns | me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy | may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. | | Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in | this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive | about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a | pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new | computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb | ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel | and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a | new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... | but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( | | I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, | purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up | through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar | game just to race online. | | If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the | never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email | me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) | | Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? | email papy's manager at [email hidden] | | | thanks for your time! | | BH | Dodgefan! | |

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:11:08 GMT, "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Hogwash. Under common law all businesses have the legal right to protect >their assets and the rest of their customers from the actions of customers >that are behaveing in a manner that is designed to damage those assets and >decrease the pleasure of the remainder of the customers. For instance: a >green fee permit for a golf course does not give the right to damage the >greens or interfer with the enjoyment of the course by other golfers even if >those prohibitions are not explicitly printed on the green fee ticket. > >Your argument regarding the legalities of the situation would be laughed out >of court. > >Dav-Erb

And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case and would win if they could prove it in court.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:21:05 -0500, rrevved_ <[email hidden]> wrote: >ROFLMAO!! *plonk*

To clear up a few more things... Papy ONLY monitors the papy server races... I would have NO IDEA who turned me in as a wrecker... in that race... no one got upset with me at all or called me a wrecker so I'm not sure who would have reported me. It was NOT a league race... but I was a member of a large league... obviously if I haven't been kicked out of the league through midseason than I am not a wrecker. Yes, they have gone to far. I was online today looking at the "other" racing games like Heat and Thunder... might look into those now. One thing is for sure...they won't be asses about people using their product they develop. If papy would spend time on fixing the pathetic AI for offline races and finish the next patch instead of banned people they "assume" are wreckers... it might be a decent game one day! [email hidden] is their email address.... tell them what you think BH "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<W%Rh7.25928$[email hidden]>...

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> Papy said they were going to trry and clean it up. What I would be > concerned about is the guy who complained to get you banned. You're getting > pissed at totally the wrong people about this. > > -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > > what they call "wrecking". > > > > here's their rules: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > > morally). > > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > > from which they banned me from. > > > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > > car!!! > > > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > > out to wreck him intentionally. > > > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > > online, for good. > > > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > > responded again rudely against that. > > > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > > game just to race online. > > > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > > > > thanks for your time! > > > > BH > > Dodgefan!

My suggestions which i had emailed them before are these: instead of banning people totally: - ban them from just papy servers (which would still allow them to host races or race in leagues, etc) - drop their rating and reset it back to zero (this is the way the rating system was SUPPOST to work in the first place... keeping the good drivers from the bad one's... oh well they already tried to redo it once since it's release) - Make IC (Incidents Caused) rating score count much larger towards total ratings (whether intentional or not this would make cleaner racing all around) - ban them for a limited amount of time (1 week or hell 1 month... but this banning them forever thing is way too far... i'm not the only driver who isn't a wrecker to be banned... you wouldn't believe the email's I've been getting) Papy obviously has some strange business related problems... even their moderators which is their support staff make some harsh comments in the forums towards people... the online mod guy that sent me the replay was very rude to me in his emails. The mods in the chat forums will say things like "ONLY MAKE POSTS FOR FIXES OR HELP RELATED TO NASCAR 4" then the next post will be started by moderator saying something about Carp (yes really) they have even banned me from their forum which I think is totally unreal. If i knew this is the way they treat some of their customers (whether it be me or others) I would have never bought Nascar 1, 2, 3, & 4 with all the expansion packs. The rating system 0-10 should be for the wreckers... but when I race in 5 or higher... well there are still bad wreckers there so you tell me what is the rating system for? I have gotten wrecked TONS of time.. but NEVER have I turned anyone in... ya know why... cause it is called ONLINE RACING... if I wanted a group of clean drivers racing for points.. the I would join a league just like I did... Nascar 3 never had these problems online at all... I think the rating system is to blame cause the wreckers go after people to screw up their ratings. If the ratings system was worth a damn... it might work. anyways, there is nothing else I can do... if any or all of you would please email papy at [email hidden] (he's the one who banned me) and tell them what you think about my experience and/or banning in general it would be greatly appreciated. thanks guys and god bless Brandon "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ZcSh7.355829$[email hidden]>...

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> Not sure what that has to do with what I said but you are correct in the > fact that most leagues have their own arbitration procedures. The > problem is, how do you distinguish between a pickup race or a leagure > race on Sierra.com. I sympathise with him but you have to realize that > Papy has more to lose by not doing something about the wrecking than the > few customers it will lose due to people that just buy it to > intentionally wreck others. I applaud Papy for trying to give us all a > better experience and to be honest, I gave up pickup racing for that > matter. But my 150+ LPI wouldn't be if I raced pickup races, it would be > more like a 15 LPI. > > My idea of an arbitration board would solve the problem of people being > banned for unfortunate incidents. > > > > Mike Grandy > > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:g5Sh7.25935$[email hidden]... > What leagues don't have their own way of handling incidents? I can > see > being banned from apickup race scenario, but not league play, EVERY > LEAGUE > I've ever seen has it's own rules and protest/incident handling. If > it was > a league race as it seems it was, the LEAGUE should have handled > it.... > > -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular > structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > Mike Grandy <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:z0Ph7.355783$[email hidden]... > > As always John there is no perfect way to police something like > this. > There > > should be some way to arbitrate a decision like this where the > suspended > > racer can appeal to a board(of fellow peers) that would review the > > circumstances and listen to recommendations from other members of > the > league > > the individual is in. > > > > Mike Grandy > > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > > Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you > being > out > > > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more > than > one > > > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement in > incidents > > > during that race. Are you sure you weren't in the high line on > the > > > backstretch when the leaders were trying to go low and you came > right > across > > > the track in front of them causing the wreck? I think that is > alittle > > > closer to the truth. > > > > > > > Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as > > intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low > > line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, > > that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. > Without > > seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the > > other. > > > > I have mixed feelings about the banning of wreckers like this. Many > > times, a person may just be having a bad racing day. I have > personally > > never intentionally wrecked someone, but I have had days when I > couldn't > > drive the car in a straight line, even I was velcroed to the > back-strech > > wall at dega. On those days, I have sometimes been accused of > > intentional wrecking, but I just ignore the flamer and keep driving > > because I know better. > > > > The original poster is in a league and he can't participate in those > > league races if the server is reguistered on WON. IMHO (and within > the > > context provided), that is an unfair restriction of use of the game. > > > > I haven't raced online since the new policy went into effect because > all > > it takes is one person to get you on Papy's radar, and that's not > > someplace I want to spend my time (as a driver). I wonder how many > > other people feel the same way. > > > > -- > > > ========================= > ========================= > ======= > > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > > > > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > > > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) > > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > > > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) > > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > > > ========================= > ========================= > ======= > > > > > > > > --

Type74 wrote: > > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:21:05 -0500, rrevved_ <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >ROFLMAO!! > > *plonk* Yeah revved, how could you..........you....you....you evil person you Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"Type74" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:11:08 GMT, "David Erb" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Hogwash. Under common law all businesses have the legal right to protect > >their assets and the rest of their customers from the actions ofcustomers > >that are behaveing in a manner that is designed to damage those assetsand > >decrease the pleasure of the remainder of the customers. For instance: a > >green fee permit for a golf course does not give the right to damage the > >greens or interfer with the enjoyment of the course by other golfers evenif > >those prohibitions are not explicitly printed on the green fee ticket. > > > >Your argument regarding the legalities of the situation would be laughedout > >of court. > > > >Dav-Erb > > And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case > and would win if they could prove it in court. I have some sympathy for the original poster in this thread whose errors seem to me to be those of poor judgement rather than deliberate malice. My comments were directed towards your original statement which was: (quote)" I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for."(end quote). They *do* , in fact, have a legal right to do so and it could be argued that they have a moral obligation towards their other customers to do so as well. It would be a good idea to have a convenient method of appeal to Papyrus in the event of misunderstandings or false accusations but that is a matter of customer relations rather than legalities. It would certainly be up to the customer to prove he was treated unfairly and that would be difficult unless he can show evidence that others were treated differently for actions that were substantially similar to his actions. He then would have to claim damages. Even if a court would hear this case the damage award would be minuet since he had received significant value already in the form of the offline portion of the game. Call it $10.00. Dav_Erb

Thats what I thought Skotty Flynn <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was under the impression that Papy's "Guidelines For Reporting > NASCAR� Racing 4 Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking" were strictly for > enforcing wreckers on their servers, not the entire Won service. > > Their webpage says "THIS IS FOR PAPYRUS-OPERATED SERVERS ONLY", > so why have they gone so far as to ban him from Won entirely?

The problem I have with that is you cannot ESC out, having to come to a complete stop first Darrin Stevens <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Why not park it when your severely damaged? Like it or not you being out > there in the way caused others to get wrecked, looks like on more than one > occasion. Sounds to me like your down playing your involvement inincidents >

Agreed Even a warning via email Papy is using a bandaid to stop the bleeding :) Mike Grandy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z0Ph7.355783$[email hidden]... > As always John there is no perfect way to police something like this.There > should be some way to arbitrate a decision like this where the suspended > racer can appeal to a board(of fellow peers) that would review the > circumstances and listen to recommendations from other members of theleague > the individual is in.

By the way... I DO have the replay if anyone wants to view it ... it's 2.6mb and it clearly shows me moving out of the way of everyone... unfortunately me and another guy went the same direction to avoid one another... BUT there was no wreck... and they classify me as a wrecker. BH "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<H5Ph7.188773$[email hidden]>...

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> HAHAHAH. GOOD. One less wrecker to have to deal with. > > Vintook > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > > what they call "wrecking". > > > > here's their rules: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > > morally). > > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > > from which they banned me from. > > > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > > car!!! > > > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > > out to wreck him intentionally. > > > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > > online, for good. > > > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > > responded again rudely against that. > > > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > > game just to race online. > > > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > > > > thanks for your time! > > > > BH > > Dodgefan!

Passworded races shouldnt be included Mike Grandy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZcSh7.355829. The problem is, how do you distinguish between a pickup race or a leagure race on Sierra.com.

Probably, but these sort of stories are good enough to put the fear of death into me. One bad call proving enough for getting banned? -Jezus!! Not that I would ever consider switching sides on the track with the leaders barrelling down on me, but still. Sounds silly, doesn't it? A 3-year veteran of GPL online races, scared to run N4 online for fear of, as an unknown quantity, being mistaken for a wrecker. True tho' ;-( Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Vintook" wrote... > NO! Papy is of the view that if you intentionally wreck others, > you don't get to play. If you are just a crappy driver you will > not get banned. > > Vintook

In article <f5Uh7.5919$[email hidden]>, "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and > explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is that > important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and Learn! ... and return the first or sell it on e-bay.

But with the attitudes of most people today even when you apologize they call you a jack-ass. (It's kind of like when you hold the door for someone and they just walk by you like it's your job or something ....) In article <w0Sh7.25929$[email hidden]>, "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (26 lines)

> No, but they should see the apology from your kb........... > > -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > mustang <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <I4Ph7.188756$[email hidden]>, > > "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > NO! Papy is of the view that if you intentionally wreck others, you > don't > > > get to play. If you are just a crappy driver you will not get banned. > > > > > > I dunno. I suck pretty bad. (That's why I rarely play onine ...) But > > when I wreck (usually totally by accident because I overdrove the car) > > it certainly LOOKS intentional. (And the other computer users can't see > > the "OOPS" or "OH DAMN" look on my face!) > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

> [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > > There seriously could be major legal issues here if one wanted to get > > that involved...because what if for instance I had paid for a server > > to start up my own league and then become banned? Could you sue for > > this? What about the fact that they CANNOT prove that I was > > "intentionally wrecking" the guy like the rule is stated. How about > > the fact there was never a wreck? Prob some interesting stuff > > there... oh well > > I doubt you have a case. You are racing on their servers and using their > service. They have the right to serve who they wish so long as they don't > descrimate based on religion, race, sex or sexual orientation. > > Mind you, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

Couldn't it be argued that he was discriminated on based on driving ability ??? :-) <GRIN> Let's start a new protected-class: Bad drivers!

On 25 Aug 2001 04:13:39 -0700, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: >The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from >racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they >will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. HIP HIP HOORAY!! But: very sorry to hear the rest of your unfortunate story. I would have thought the 'total ban' would be for people who are REALLY REALLY REALLY obviously spoiling the fun, by ignoring every rule, driving the wrong way, ramming one car after another.. and your story certainly does not fall into that category :( Pickup races with N4 are a nightmare, the main reason I put N4 on my shelf and went back to GPL (ok, I also hate ovals :) So while I applaud the efforts of Papy to keep online racing clean, warnings should be given first in dubious cases are yours was, certainly since you emailed them and explained them the situation. Hope this situation gets resolved in a civilized manner for you.. Andre

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> I was under the impression that Papy's "Guidelines For Reporting > NASCAR� Racing 4 Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking" were strictly for > enforcing wreckers on their servers, not the entire Won service. > > Their webpage says "THIS IS FOR PAPYRUS-OPERATED SERVERS ONLY", > so why have they gone so far as to ban him from Won entirely? > > Doesn't seem right. > ---------------- > Skotty Flynn > http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com >

Well then, fuck it. He's outa there. :-) -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

says... Well then, *** it. He's outa there. :-) -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Well, that's a completely different thing according to the original person's account of events. We're talking about someone who *claims* to have a high LPI and ranking, who happened to have one bad race. That's not even close to the same thing you just described. If he was banned from driving online (on WON), that's kinda over the top, but if it's only Papy servers, well, that's their call, and I can't argue with it at all. In article <3b8806c0$0$23786$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> If you have consistently bad judgment and take out half the field every time > you race, even if it is unintentional, you should be banned IMHO. Some > people learn to race online at the expense of others when they could be > taking out the AI. Not very nice if you ask me :) > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as > > intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low > > line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, > > that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. Without > > seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the > > other.

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

mustang wrote: > Let's start a new protected-class: Bad drivers! Problem is, they're not a minority out there! <g> -- Fester

yea.. but on a papy server is where they claim to have caught me... ... they banned me from racing online ANYWHERE "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, that's a completely different thing according to the original > person's account of events. We're talking about someone who *claims* to > have a high LPI and ranking, who happened to have one bad race. That's > not even close to the same thing you just described. > > If he was banned from driving online (on WON), that's kinda over the > top, but if it's only Papy servers, well, that's their call, and I can't > argue with it at all. > > In article <3b8806c0$0$23786$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > If you have consistently bad judgment and take out half the field every

time

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> > you race, even if it is unintentional, you should be banned IMHO. Some > > people learn to race online at the expense of others when they could be > > taking out the AI. Not very nice if you ask me :) > > > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > Even if that were the case, bad judgement is still not the same as > > > intentionally wrecking. Maybe he waited too long to move to the low > > > line, and as I recall his description of the front stretch incident, > > > that is a typical scenario of events when you make a mistake. Without > > > seeing the replay, we can't make a valid call on it one way or the > > > other. > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Go to your Pit Stall and sit There for rest of race?? DUH? -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

Did anyone ever search R.A.S.'s history for his name? I searched the archives and this is the ONLY topic he's ever started or replied to. To me, his comments don't have much credibility. Plus, if you've race NASCAR 1, 2, 3, and 4 in a league, I would have thought by now you'd know you have to hold your line? I'm 14 and I've known that since I started playing games online about 3 years ago. It's common sense. If you have that much experience did you ever learn from previous incidents from not holding your line? Do you watch *any* type of racing? It's evident in all types. Though I do think Papy's decision was a bit extreme, I'm going to try Yahoo IM'ing you to see if I can get that replay file, and is the replay your going to send the one you got banned for? That's another reason, as we don't know his legitimacy, he could be sending us a replay from a race where he didn't intentionally wreck. There is really no way to tell if this guy is being sincere or not, but to me, it all seems a bit shady. Thanks, Alex B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (145 lines)

> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

Yup Yup Yup, Good Point, could be a wreaker conspiracy to get back online. That's Why........he he Fred feels for Ya too.... http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fredgassit1/classic31.gif -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

Yup Yup Yup, Good Point, could be a wreaker *** to get back online. That's Why........he he Fred feels for Ya too.... http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fredgassit1/classic31.gif -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

"Type74" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case > and would win if they could prove it in court. There is nothing on the outside of my N4 box that offers me online racing via the sierra.com matching service. All it states is that multiplayer LAN and internet for up to 43 players (*) is offered. * depends on bandwidth and connection speed. It's obviously a nasty situation to be in, but access to sierra.com's lobbies or the particular servers listed on there (ok that's almost all of them) is not guaranteed from the box cover. cheers John

IMO banning you for a month would have been more than enough of a "message". There is one thing that concerns me though... you mentioned that you`ve been banned from the forum as well... My question at this point would be to ask you if you used any 4 letter words during that race/chat or in the Pappy forum itself. In other words, is Pappy upset with you for more than just your driving? Also, have you ever had any type of warning during any other races that you entered in the past? If you are clean on the above two charges <lol> (4 letter words and/or previous warnings) then I`d halfto agree with what Andre said> Andre said: "So while I applaud the efforts of Papy to keep online racing clean, warnings should be given first in dubious cases are yours was, certainly since you emailed them and explained them the situation. Hope this situation gets resolved in a civilized manner for you" It`d be interesting to read how Pappy responded to you in e-mail. Why don`t you post their first letter to you here? -Lorne

thats what Papyloop races are :) "mustang" wrote: | Let's start a new protected-class: Bad drivers! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > mustang wrote: >> Let's start a new protected-class: Bad drivers! > > > Problem is, they're not a minority out there! <g> > > -- > > Fester

Now that one made me laugh out loud! -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

Wow Alex, Very impressive perspective for a 14yr/old.. Well done there! :) Also I am not saying you are too young to make such a re: but you seem quite insightful! "Alex Kihurani" wrote: | Did anyone ever search R.A.S.'s history for his name? I searched the | archives and this is the ONLY topic he's ever started or replied to. Tome, | his comments don't have much credibility. Plus, if you've race NASCAR 1,2, | 3, and 4 in a league, I would have thought by now you'd know you have to | hold your line? I'm 14 and I've known that since I started playing games | online about 3 years ago. It's common sense. If you have that much | experience did you ever learn from previous incidents from not holdingyour | line? Do you watch *any* type of racing? It's evident in all types. | | Though I do think Papy's decision was a bit extreme, I'm going to tryYahoo | IM'ing you to see if I can get that replay file, and is the replay your | going to send the one you got banned for? | | That's another reason, as we don't know his legitimacy, he could besending | us a replay from a race where he didn't intentionally wreck. There isreally | no way to tell if this guy is being sincere or not, but to me, it allseems

Quoted text (11 lines)

| a bit shady. | | Thanks, | Alex | | B. Hilton wrote: | > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) | > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar | > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! | > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 | > Message-ID: <[email hidden]>

<snipped> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

"mustang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > return the first or sell it on e-bay. Wouldn't that mean the the unfortunate lout that bought it would be banned before he/she even got the first race in? Pappy

Lorne since the patch you cant type any or the 4-letter foul words directly! You can space out letters and mis'spell them but any foul words are also banned online after the patch.. "Lorne Glustein" wrote: | My question at this | point would be to ask you if you used any 4 letter words during that | race/chat or in the Pappy forum itself. In other words, is Pappy upset | with you for more than just your driving?<snipped> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

mustang <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> In article <f5Uh7.5919$[email hidden]>, > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and >> explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is >> that important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and >> Learn! > > ... and return the first or sell it on e-bay. >

There's the ticket, buy a new copy and return the first... You only want the CD-key anyway... -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

If its the same CD-key.. Yup! "Pappy" wrote: | Wouldn't that mean the the unfortunate lout that bought it would be banned | before he/she even got the first race in? | Pappy | "mustang" wrote: | > return the first or sell it on e-bay. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Talking to him on Yahoo IM now. He's sending the replay to me. I see the replay name is dodgefan_intentionalwreck.zip. I believe I remember there being a wrecker named dodgefan, but I'm not sure as I haven't played online lately. I'll have to check the replay. Thanks, Alex Thom j. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6aZh7.137581$[email hidden]...

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> Wow Alex, Very impressive perspective for a 14yr/old.. Well done > there! :) Also I am not saying you are too young to make such a re: > but you seem quite insightful! > > "Alex Kihurani" wrote: > | Did anyone ever search R.A.S.'s history for his name? I searched the > | archives and this is the ONLY topic he's ever started or replied to. To > me, > | his comments don't have much credibility. Plus, if you've race NASCAR 1, > 2, > | 3, and 4 in a league, I would have thought by now you'd know you have to > | hold your line? I'm 14 and I've known that since I started playing games > | online about 3 years ago. It's common sense. If you have that much > | experience did you ever learn from previous incidents from not holding > your > | line? Do you watch *any* type of racing? It's evident in all types. > | > | Though I do think Papy's decision was a bit extreme, I'm going to try > Yahoo > | IM'ing you to see if I can get that replay file, and is the replay your > | going to send the one you got banned for? > | > | That's another reason, as we don't know his legitimacy, he could be > sending > | us a replay from a race where he didn't intentionally wreck. There is > really > | no way to tell if this guy is being sincere or not, but to me, it all > seems > | a bit shady. > | > | Thanks, > | Alex > | > | B. Hilton wrote: > | > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > | > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > | > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > | > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > | > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > <snipped> > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001 > >

See alot of you are thinking along the same lines I am. I have been wrecked TONS of times... but I'm not gonna go whining to Papy about it... we have a rating system... so it SHOULD work correctly... but of course it doesn't. It's called ONLINE RACING... people make mistakes... warp happens... kids/pets jump in your lap... phone rings (and you can't exit until you come to a COMPLETE stop) I just think they have gone WAY overboard!!! I'm even worried now about other drivers that I made friends with racing online that they could be banned too because... accidents happen (heck I'm watching the bristol race right now! haha) PLEASE... email papy at [email hidden] and let them know what you think AND/OR post on the Nascar 4 Forum on www.papy.com (which I have been banned from also) and tell them what you think I have the replay if any of you want to see for yourself! thanks for listening... :) Brandon Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> On 25 Aug 2001 04:13:39 -0700, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > > >The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > >racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > >will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > HIP HIP HOORAY!! > > But: very sorry to hear the rest of your unfortunate story. I would > have thought the 'total ban' would be for people who are REALLY REALLY > REALLY obviously spoiling the fun, by ignoring every rule, driving the > wrong way, ramming one car after another.. and your story certainly > does not fall into that category :( > > Pickup races with N4 are a nightmare, the main reason I put N4 on my > shelf and went back to GPL (ok, I also hate ovals :) > So while I applaud the efforts of Papy to keep online racing clean, > warnings should be given first in dubious cases are yours was, > certainly since you emailed them and explained them the situation. > > Hope this situation gets resolved in a civilized manner for you.. > > Andre

For months now, all I have read about is how bad online racing has become due to "wreckers". Papy responds with an Iron Fist, trying to clean up their servers and right away there's a call to arms (or lawyers) sympathizing with a gentleman that we (or maybe I should say "I") know nothing about. This thread is so long I forget, but didn't he say both incidences were with the leader? Coincidence? Who knows. But it looks bad. And if you can't control your car (sliding up the turn) or hold your line, then you should probably park it. If you are going pitifully slow, again, park it. If your more concerned with picking up a few measly points then with the quality of the race for EVERYONE, then as far as I'm concerned, you get whats coming to you. And as far as internet play is concerned, you can still race. You just can't race on Sierra. How about this for a refreshing idea. Take responsibiltiy for yourself. Quit trying to blame everyone and their brother or whining about lawyers and suing. I am sick of it. We brought up a valid point to Papy and they responded. Good for them. Sorry for the vitriol, but it just ticks me off. Michael Loos Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio! Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific Find your local affiliate at www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok, here's what really happens. 1. He's driving slow along the apron and switching back on to the track in 3rd gear, and everyone starts to go by. 2. He goes up onto the track, and all of a sudden his speed increases dramatically and goes from about 90mph to over 135 when he comes out of the turn. 3. You see the leader come up behind him through his review mirrors, and is down low to make the pass. 4. When you see the front of the nose what looks like is lined up with the rear of the car, he suddenly swerves down at a VERY great angle 5. The leader tries to turn down with him so he doesn't get hit, but Dodgefan (or B. Hilton) doesn't stop moving down the track 6. They don't make contact until he's actually on the white dotted line that seperates the apron (well not much of one on the straight) to the track. I tried swerving at that angle, at that speed, and tried to turn back at the white dotted line (i looked at the replay and tried several times to make sure I had the right angle) and most of the time, trying not to hit the wall, I had such a big pendulum swing that a lot of times I couldn't get it back. Of course, after a did it a whole lot and used some left foot braking I could JUST hang onto it, and this is with the easy setup btw. Actually, to turn so hard down the track, I had to turn the wheel as much as I could. It was no slight move, you can literally feel the car hurl to the inside. Also, he swerved after the corner, and at a VERY great angle. I don't think if you move to the inside to let the leaders pass you swerve at an angle onto the apron that has a great chance of you spinning out and loosing more time. Though, the leader did hit him, but got lucky because he turned down the track with him and Dodgefan only got the tip of his nose, so the leader went and motored on. You can check out the 14 seconds of the wreck here: http://www.runnyegg.com/alex/dodgefanwreck.zip I uploaded it for everyone so they can make their own decision. But I have to say, that's beyond ignorance and being oblivious IMO. I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who just had a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no doubt in my mind that it was intentional. Thanks, Alex B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:57:21 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >Yeah revved, how could you..........you....you....you evil person you > rrevved is a big fan of *plonking*, you should ask him about the *plonk* wars of '99 sometime.

I can't speak for Papyrus, I haven't seen the replay. I don't know if you were on a 'watch list' or if this truly was an isolated incident. But the one thing I haven't seen in this thread are uses of the Autochat function. when I'm busted up, I'm running with the pass high or pass low buttons ready to fire. A simple message saying pass high...would have saved the day...if, of course, you triggered it before you dove low. I have seen guys pop out of the pits and THEN the 'exiting pits' message is displayed. We need to give plenty of time for the internet to transport our messages. Goodluck getting re-instated. If you persist in a calm manner, you 'may' get results. dave henrie "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > See alot of you are thinking along the same lines I am. I have been

I agree, I agree, I agree. This was intentional. I posted the below under a different heading and after watching that replay I am angered even more. For months now, all I have read about is how bad online racing has become due to "wreckers". Papy responds with an Iron Fist, trying to clean up their servers and right away there's a call to arms (or lawyers) sympathizing with a gentleman that we (or maybe I should say "I") know nothing about. The thread was so long I forget, but didn't he say both incidences were with the leader? Coincidence? Who knows. But it looks bad. And if you can't control your car (sliding up the turn) or hold your line, then you should probably park it. If you are going pitifully slow, again, park it. If your more concerned with picking up a few measly points then with the quality of the race for EVERYONE, then as far as I'm concerned, you get whats coming to you. And as far as internet play is concerned, you can still race. You just can't race on Sierra. How about this for a refreshing idea. Take responsibiltiy for yourself. Quit trying to blame everyone and their brother or whining about lawyers and suing. I am sick of it. We brought up a valid point to Papy and they responded. Good for them. Sorry for the vitriol, but it just ticks me off. And now after watching the replay, I am going to email Papy and give a HOORAH~! Michael Loos Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio! Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific Find your local affiliate at www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

Well then check out the replay! I uploaded it :) Thanks, Alex Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9o_h7.7152$[email hidden]... > I can't speak for Papyrus, I haven't seen the replay. I don't know if > you were on a 'watch list' or if this truly was an isolated incident. But > the one thing I haven't seen in this thread are uses of the Autochat > function. when I'm busted up, I'm running with the pass high or pass low > buttons ready to fire. A simple message saying pass high...would have > saved the day...if, of course, you triggered it before you dove low. Ihave > seen guys pop out of the pits and THEN the 'exiting pits' message is > displayed. We need to give plenty of time for the internet to transportour

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> messages. Goodluck getting re-instated. If you persist in a calm manner, > you 'may' get results. > dave henrie > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > See alot of you are thinking along the same lines I am. I have been > >

Thanks for the kind words :) Though, some people call it insightful, I call it common sense ;) Of course, comments like that got me the nickname the "RallyBrat" (I go to lots of rallies and connected to all the rallyists in the US, well a good portion of them) [advertisement] and if you want to check out any of my rally articles from US events you can at www.specialstage.com/ [/advertisement] :) Anyway, you might want to check out the replay, it will give you the truth. Thanks, Alex Thom j. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6aZh7.137581$[email hidden]...

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> Wow Alex, Very impressive perspective for a 14yr/old.. Well done > there! :) Also I am not saying you are too young to make such a re: > but you seem quite insightful! > > "Alex Kihurani" wrote: > | Did anyone ever search R.A.S.'s history for his name? I searched the > | archives and this is the ONLY topic he's ever started or replied to. To > me, > | his comments don't have much credibility. Plus, if you've race NASCAR 1, > 2, > | 3, and 4 in a league, I would have thought by now you'd know you have to > | hold your line? I'm 14 and I've known that since I started playing games > | online about 3 years ago. It's common sense. If you have that much > | experience did you ever learn from previous incidents from not holding > your > | line? Do you watch *any* type of racing? It's evident in all types. > | > | Though I do think Papy's decision was a bit extreme, I'm going to try > Yahoo > | IM'ing you to see if I can get that replay file, and is the replay your > | going to send the one you got banned for? > | > | That's another reason, as we don't know his legitimacy, he could be > sending > | us a replay from a race where he didn't intentionally wreck. There is > really > | no way to tell if this guy is being sincere or not, but to me, it all > seems > | a bit shady. > | > | Thanks, > | Alex > | > | B. Hilton wrote: > | > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > | > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > | > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > | > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > | > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > <snipped> > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001 > >

Alex I believe I've heard the nick'name before but it really doesnt come up as anything "bad or good" in my cabaza` :) "Alex Kihurani" wrote: | Talking to him on Yahoo IM now. He's sending the replay to me. I see the | replay name is dodgefan_intentionalwreck.zip. I believe I remember there | being a wrecker named dodgefan, but I'm not sure as I haven't playedonline | lately. I'll have to check the replay. | | Thanks, | Alex --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Rallies in the US? No I know your are dreaming...hehehe no really I beleive you. dave henrie "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9H_h7.1411$[email hidden]... > Thanks for the kind words :) Though, some people call it insightful, Icall

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> it common sense ;) Of course, comments like that got me the nickname the > "RallyBrat" (I go to lots of rallies and connected to all the rallyists in > the US, well a good portion of them) > > [advertisement] and if you want to check out any of my rally articles from > US events you can at www.specialstage.com/ [/advertisement] :) > > Anyway, you might want to check out the replay, it will give you the

truth.

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> > Thanks, > Alex > Thom j. <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:6aZh7.137581$[email hidden]... > > Wow Alex, Very impressive perspective for a 14yr/old.. Well done > > there! :) Also I am not saying you are too young to make such a re: > > but you seem quite insightful! > > > > "Alex Kihurani" wrote: > > | Did anyone ever search R.A.S.'s history for his name? I searched the > > | archives and this is the ONLY topic he's ever started or replied to.

To > > me, > > | his comments don't have much credibility. Plus, if you've race NASCAR1, > > 2, > > | 3, and 4 in a league, I would have thought by now you'd know you haveto > > | hold your line? I'm 14 and I've known that since I started playinggames

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> > | online about 3 years ago. It's common sense. If you have that much > > | experience did you ever learn from previous incidents from not holding > > your > > | line? Do you watch *any* type of racing? It's evident in all types. > > | > > | Though I do think Papy's decision was a bit extreme, I'm going to try > > Yahoo > > | IM'ing you to see if I can get that replay file, and is the replay

your

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> > | going to send the one you got banned for? > > | > > | That's another reason, as we don't know his legitimacy, he could be > > sending > > | us a replay from a race where he didn't intentionally wreck. There is > > really > > | no way to tell if this guy is being sincere or not, but to me, it all > > seems > > | a bit shady. > > | > > | Thanks, > > | Alex > > | > > | B. Hilton wrote: > > | > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > | > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > | > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > | > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > | > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > <snipped> > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001 > > > > >

Sadly B. Hilton I know the person you hit and yes you did hit him via the replay. He is an extremely serious racer and to me it does look like you just 'cut right into him' but this is not my call. Good luck but [for me] I would have to see more then a 14sec replay to see how you race & your style but JMichaels is super serious about his ICs & ratings!! I'd guess his rating is atleast an 6-8 or so? Btw: When you hit JMichaels, you gave him an IC. He was a major advocator of getting wreckers offline, IIRC? Good luck in your quest.. -Thom_j. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

In article <f5Uh7.5919$[email hidden]>, "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> writes: >Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and >explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is that >important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and Learn! > ...And if it happens again...? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <HRXh7.8148$[email hidden]>, "JM" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>There is nothing on the outside of my N4 box that offers me online racing >via the sierra.com matching service. All it states is that multiplayer LAN >and internet for up to 43 players (*) is offered. > >* depends on bandwidth and connection speed. > >It's obviously a nasty situation to be in, but access to sierra.com's >lobbies or the particular servers listed on there (ok that's almost all of >them) is not guaranteed from the box cover. >

This sounds like the arguments about Blizzard's BattleNet having terrible connections for Diablo II. Some people say it's a free service, so you shouldn't complain. Others say that the game was marketed as a multiplayer game, increased sales that way, and no one would have bought it WITHOUT multiplayer... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, mustang <[email hidden]> writes:

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>In article <f5Uh7.5919$[email hidden]>, > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and >> explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is that >> important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and Learn! > >... and return the first or sell it on e-bay. >

And then THAT person wouldn't be able to play online. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <w0Sh7.25929$[email hidden]>, "Biz" <[email hidden]> writes: >No, but they should see the apology from your kb........... If it was a pickup race, maybe. Some leagues have a 'no chat' rule. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <jfTh7.25942$[email hidden]>, "Kevin Anderson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I don't believe they are strict, But even if you are wrecking >un-intentionally, Maybe you should learn offline before ruining races >online. > >-- >Kevin Anderson >[email hidden] >

[snip]

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>> >> Non-contact Nascar Racing 4. That's an interesting concept. >> I sympathize mate. Not everyone excels at Nascar 4 to the point of being >> able to race entirely without accidents happening. Papyrus seem to be of >the >> view that if you ain't perfect you can't play. Online racing is a tricky >> enough prospect for lots of people without strict, uncompromising rules >that >> punish drivers who may have "wrecked" someone un-intentionally. Sometimes >> there are outside technical issues beyond your control that effects the >way >> you car is behaving. We've all seen that, and possibly had it happen to us >> at some time. It wouldn't be very nice to get banned from playing your >> favourite game online for that, would it ? >> >> *This does not apply to the morons who go out deliberately to make arses >of >> themselves and ruin a fun game for everyone else.* Although a "special >> needs" could be created for them !

A 'technical issue' that causes a wreck online isn't related to the skill of the driver. He may have ALREADY learned offline... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <9m8i3q$ah43$[email hidden]>, "Jacob Butner" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>They have just disallowed racing NR4 on WON correct? IIRC there is nothing >stopping him from running races thru direct IP connections.. This may not >be covered in NR4 license, but I'm sure they have something in the WON >service usage that states anything unbecoming to the WON service or users >will result in an immediate ban from the service.. which, IMHO they have >every right do to.. But then again, there is a line between intential >wrecking and just a bad day or bad race..

So, once someone gets banned in any race(even a pickup race), they can no longer run in any leagues they may be in...? I've read that if the server runs on WON, you can't connect to it thru direct IP connect. Most leagues (AFAIK) still use WON. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <fYOh7.355782$[email hidden]>, "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> writes: >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 and the >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across the track >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to you? That's what I was thinking. From the description, it SOUNDS deliberate. Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too. Not saying it was, but I think people can see why the victim would think so. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Absolutely no 4 letter words... I am a strong christian... also they have a block those "bad words" anyways :) they have just gone too far... are WILL NOT work with me at all BH "Lorne Glustein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<5GYh7.9473$[email hidden]>...

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> IMO banning you for a month would have been more than enough > of a "message". > > There is one thing that concerns me though... you mentioned that > you`ve been banned from the forum as well... My question at this > point would be to ask you if you used any 4 letter words during that > race/chat or in the Pappy forum itself. In other words, is Pappy upset > with you for more than just your driving? > > Also, have you ever had any type of warning during any other races > that you entered in the past? > > If you are clean on the above two charges <lol> (4 letter words and/or > previous warnings) then I`d halfto agree with what Andre said> > > Andre said: > "So while I applaud the efforts of Papy to keep online racing clean, > warnings should be given first in dubious cases are yours was, > certainly since you emailed them and explained them the situation. > Hope this situation gets resolved in a civilized manner for you" > > It`d be interesting to read how Pappy responded to you in e-mail. > Why don`t you post their first letter to you here? > > -Lorne

I will post some of the papy emails... I already deleted some I received from a N4 Forum Moderator... those were very rude too the autochat functions I use VERY frequently... however, as I mentioned..the leaders were coming so fast... I had a late reaction which made me unable to hit the correct autochat "pass high" key... i just dove low ASSUMING the leaders would all keep high down the backstretch as the racing line IS at Lowes. oh well :( "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<%A_h7.1397$[email hidden]>...

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> Well then check out the replay! I uploaded it :) > > Thanks, > Alex > Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9o_h7.7152$[email hidden]... > > I can't speak for Papyrus, I haven't seen the replay. I don't know if > > you were on a 'watch list' or if this truly was an isolated incident. But > > the one thing I haven't seen in this thread are uses of the Autochat > > function. when I'm busted up, I'm running with the pass high or pass low > > buttons ready to fire. A simple message saying pass high...would have > > saved the day...if, of course, you triggered it before you dove low. I > have > > seen guys pop out of the pits and THEN the 'exiting pits' message is > > displayed. We need to give plenty of time for the internet to transport > our > > messages. Goodluck getting re-instated. If you persist in a calm manner, > > you 'may' get results. > > dave henrie > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > See alot of you are thinking along the same lines I am. I have been > > > >

Here's the emails from me and papy back and forth. I felt I was pretty reasonable with them and nice about it... don't know why they were so pissy. Sounds like a good way to run a business and keep customers doesn't it? haha You need to start at the VERY bottom of this message... they emails go in order from the bottom up. Please read these and tell me what you think. Gotta problem as TONS of other people have emailed me about???.... then email [email hidden] and tell them how you feel. I was banned from the N4 Forum (just trying to plead my case) so you can post there too on www.papy.com haha you can email me at [email hidden] with comments thanks for listening guys....at lease someone will since Papy won't. I appreciate it! :) ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() This is my last and final response. I am one of the managers, your cd key ban is final. My response to you saying somebody else may have been using your ID is that it is YOUR responsibility to pw protect your ID and monitor who uses your computer, just in case that was the direction you were planning to head into in an attempt to get your key unbanned. I don't know who told you to contact customer service, but none of my moderators have told you this. You are more than welcome to them if you like, but the final decision comes down to me and the decision has been made. I don't plan to debate cd key bannings, and you are an example of why. Too much time has already been spent on this case. Sincerely, Online Mod [email hidden] -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:47 PM To: Online Mod Subject: RE: Unbanning? NO ONE uses my computer other than me... This is unbelieveable!!! I think you might be running into more and more bans that may have debate. I will be calling the customer service number soon asking to speak with the manage (as instructed by one of your moderators) I appreciate you trying to help out the online racing... but sometimes, the wrong people get in trouble more than the real wreckers. I have raced against some of your moderators, and they know i am a clean racer. BH --- Online Mod <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Both of your ID's have been reported, however we > were unable to retrieve the > replay on your other ID. If it wasn't you, it's on > you because it's your > ID. We have no control over who you let use your > computer. > > > > Online Mod > [email hidden] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:41 PM > To: Online Mod > Subject: RE: Unbanning? > > > thanks for the replay. I'll have to view it when I > get > home from work... > > only a PORTION of what was on the replay that was > clearly deliberate? Honestly guys, with all do > respect...I'm beginning to get the feeling this may > not be me because I don't race like that on or offline. > > > BH >

What would you call this? This is only a portion of what was on the replay, but clearly deliberate. The intentional wrecking message was clearly posted, you saw it every time you logged on. This BAN stands. Online Mod [email hidden] -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:39 PM To: Online Mod Subject: RE: Unbanning? Please send to [email hidden] thanks for your help... I cannot wait to see this BH --- Online Mod <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Provide me with an address that I can send a clip of > your intentional > wrecking. The fact that you claim to have never > intentionally wrecked > somebody is not an honest statement, and this clip > clearly shows that fact. > > Online Mod > [email hidden] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 12:11 PM > To: Online Mod > Subject: Unbanning? > > > All I am asking for is another shot... I'm still > just > unsure what replay you are seeing. I've raced a > demo-derby like race at Bristol... but I was wrecked > a > gazillion times too! haha Nothing was > intentional there... it's just RACING. > I HAVE NEVER DELIBERATELY gone after someone just to > wreck them... that is just pathetic and a waste of > my > time (I could do that off line if i wanted to) > > Please reconsider giving me another shot... I have > very high ratings and lpi and have worked hard. > > I have been a papy fan since the nascar 1 days ... > bought every nascar game and expansion pack... > please > don't lose me as a customer... cause I have turned a > lot of people on to your games in my area. > > Will I get a second chance? I'm sorry for whatever > you see on the replays... but I can assure you > whatever it is you see, there is an explanation for > it.. it was not intentional in a rage. > > thank you again for your time and consideration > > > > --- Online Mod <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Your Dodgefan!! Id was reported for intentional > > wrecking. We were able to > > determine from the server replay that this report > > was valid. Intentional > > wrecking WILL NOT be tolerated in any form, > > regardless of whether you are > > the instigator or retaliator. The only way > somebody > > else could be using > > your cd key is if you gave it to them. I don't > > think that is the case since > > your ID matches the one that was banned. > > > > We have no intention of modifying our methods in > > getting rid of people > > guilty of intentional wrecking. Resetting user > > stats would do nothing but > > allow somebody to come back and continue the > > behavior. The message of the > > day that everybody has to accept each and every > time > > they log onto > > Sierra.com is very clear. Intentional wrecking > WILL > > NOT be tolerated and > > user accounts will be eliminated of those > determined > > to be guilty of this > > rule infraction. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Online Mod > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] > > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:59 AM > > To: [email hidden] > > Subject: Banning online? > > > > > > Hello... I was asked to contact you by some of > your > > moderators in the N4 forum on papy's webpage > > concerning my recent ban online > > > > It seems as though I have been banned and I > honestly > > do not know why I have been. I haven't raced in > > about > > a week... and my ratings and LPI were so high I > > would > > be stupid to go wrecking people and risk loosing > all > > the points I have earned for myself. Personally, > I > > think I have better things to do than go wreck > > people > > haha. :) I even bought a new computer and a > > steering > > wheel just for online racing in the league I am > in. > > > > The only thing I can think of where I was involved > > in > > numerous wrecks was a recent papy race at Bristol. > > > SOMEHOW I did end up winning this race... and > > believe > > me it wasn't from being the faster car or wrecking > > everyone... I was just dang lucky I survived! haha > > > Of course being in a 50 lap race at bristol with > > like > > 30 cars it is a demo derby of some sort... and > yes, > > I > > was involved in numerous accidents... and even did > > make contact with a few cars which were off pace, > > damaged, lapped, and/or flipped/sitting on the > > track....but this is RACING incidents.. not intentional. > > This is the ONLY race I can think of where the > idea > > of > > me even coming close to being a wrecker... which I > > was > > not...and will never be. > > > > Is it possible someone else could be using my cd > > key? > > No one has borrowed or copied my game... cause I > > would not do that.. but is it possible for someone > > to > > hack it? > > > > My usernames online are DodgeFan! and DodgeFan!! > > my cd key I am not sure of because I am at work > > right > > now (i can get back to you later if need be) > > > > One things is clear... I can ASSURE you I will > never > > intentionally wreck anyone and would be > > privelaged to race online once again if possible. > > > > Just a few suggestions from a N4 fan... I really > > like > > the ratings system... but instead of banning > people > > (yes, even those idiots or young kids who sit in > the > > middle of the track or lappers aiming for > > leaders)... > > just simply RESET their ratings back to zero > (0)... > > and leave the good racers up there. If they are > > smart > > drivers... they will build back up their ratings. > > If > > they want to argue or dispute this... they would > > STILL > > at least be able to race online 0-10 servers, > > leagues, > > or with friends. Please consider this... I > > personally > > just don't think it is right to ban people from > > using > > multiplayer in the game completely when there is a > > ratings system that would be perfect for this. > Heck > > I > > would even pay a few dollars a year to race online > > cleanly. > > > > I was even a member of a league which I am unable > to > > race in now too. :( > > > > Anyways... so if you would please... consider > giving > > me back authorization to race online. It would be > > greatly appreciated as I would once again be able > to > > race with the Nascar 4 family online :) > > > > thanks for your time and consideration, > > > > Brandon Hilton

will someone please post all of those emails from myself and the papy manager to the Nascar 4 Forum on the www.papy.com website.... (they banned me there too) i want those people that race online to see them too for a few reasons... one being to stay away from those papy servers or they make ban you just on suspision and I think everyone needs to see how they react when they ban someone. still have the replay if anyone is interested.... its 2.6mb BH

>I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns >me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy >may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. After reading your account everything you said happened would have looked exactly like an intentional wrecker and would have been reported by just about anyone involved in it Let's see. You're driving high on the track, see the leaders coming up, so you decided to cut across the track right in front of them, pretty much taking the leader out. Never mind the fact he raced on without damage. Then, a few laps later, you say you bounced off a wall and cut right across the track in front the very same car you had just about taken out a few laps later. Sorry, but if I were reviewing the replays and saw this kind of behavior on the track from you, I'd have banned you too. Looks exactly like the behavior of a wrecker. Looks just like some of their tactics. Makes no difference that there was no wreck, as you tell us. It's going to look like an intentional wrecker trying to do his stuff. Is it bad business for Papy to start banning wreckers? Let me ask you this, is it bad business for Papy to continue to let wreckers make the game unplayable and thus, unenjoyable for everyone else out there that isn't there to wreck people? Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

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>>Have you checked the license etc that came with the product, if there is no >>mention about their rights to stop you using online mode of play, then >>surely it is ilegal to stop a main part of the functionality of a product >>which you payed for? > >I agree. Whether you are an intentional wrecker or not they have no >legal right to stop you using what you *paid* for.

I'd be willing to bet there is a clause in the agreement that let's Papy amend and revise anytime they see a need. With the outcry from the non-wrecker crowd growing to fever pitch, me being one of the loudest, I'm sure Papy saw that letting wreckers continue to destroy the enjoyment of online play was more detrimental to their sales than banning a few of them. Maybe it's a little heavy handed but, I applaud Papy's attempt at beginning to address the problem Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case >and would win if they could prove it in court. He would have to prove that he was banned unfairly and from the account he posted, he would have a very hard time doing that when the replay was viewed in court. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>Well, that's a completely different thing according to the original >person's account of events. We're talking about someone who *claims* to >have a high LPI and ranking, who happened to have one bad race. That's >not even close to the same thing you just described. "Claims" Thank you for saying that. We need to realize we're hearing one side of the story here. We're not hearing Papy's side and probably won't because they don't need to be bothered by having to explain each and every decision they make. Based on the original poster's account of the events it would look exactly like a wrecker trying to take out the leaders. This from his OWN account. Like I said before, if I saw a replay that should what HE said it showed, I'd have banned him too. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>The leaders thought the right thing to do was go low. "B. Hilton" (I suspect in > all innocence) thought he was doing the proper thing in going low. That is a bunch hooey. I'll tell you the same thing I do, the same thing I tell my kids to do on the kart track and the same thing I wish all would do in this situation. Drive a straight, consistent line and let the cars coming up behind you pick their own line past you. You start moving all over the damn track when fast moving traffic is coming up behind you, you should have your ass kicked. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>Common rule is: "all lappers" Try to always stay high & hold your line. >It is basic and typed in chat in every race I go in.. It isnt that unknown! >I don't know this situation but the above is what all should do or try to >do in a online Nascar 4 race... And that's bullshit. Let me see. I'm a lapper at Darlington. You want me to go high and stay there until the faster cars go by? Can you "idiot move"? If I'm that much slower I'll be on the apron thank you very much. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>Why don't I stop racing when I have a severely damaged car? Because >I'm a real racer... and with the rating system Papy designed, we all Real racers don't cut across the track in front of the leaders as they are barrelling down on them. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>> Let's start a new protected-class: Bad drivers! > >Problem is, they're not a minority out there! <g> Jails are full of bad drivers. ;o) Thank God for that. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>By the way... I DO have the replay if anyone wants to view it ... it's >2.6mb and it clearly shows me moving out of the way of everyone... >unfortunately me and another guy went the same direction to avoid one >another... BUT there was no wreck... and they classify me as a >wrecker. You don't seem to understand something here. If you had held your line high, driving a straight line and one of the leaders had plowed into you, then shame on them. It would have been their own damn fault. But when you cut across the track in front of them, it doesn't matter that only one of them made the mistake of going the same way you did. You screwed up and your actions look just like those of intentional wreckers like I have seen a hundred times. And when you "tried" to take him out again a few laps later, that was the icing on the cake. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>> return the first or sell it on e-bay. > >Wouldn't that mean the the unfortunate lout that bought it would be banned >before he/she even got the first race in? I could just see the feedback posted on that one. "YOU STUPID SONAVABICH!!!!" ;o) Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>ban is final. My response to you saying somebody else may >have been using your ID is that it is YOUR responsibility to pw protect >your ID OH! So what you're showing here in this little email is that you told us your account of the events, telling us that you have had a bad on the track and had nearly taken out the leaders in a way that may have been mistaken for intentional wrecking. BUT, instead of telling Papy this, you decided to tell them that someone had used your ID without your knowledge. Okay. Which is the truth. Or is neither one the truth and did you really get caught with your hand in the cookie jar? Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

Hey Eldred, I believe that is correct.... I bet if they banned everyone that said "f*ck, gd, sh*t, etc.." That would take care of most of the wreckers quicker.... Those that can exert control over their verbal(typing) actions probably can control their cars better since they have less typing to do during a race ;-) I even got banned from Hawaii for cussing(I think I called Nim Cross an ass ;-) ) and had to call up Papy and explain why I did cuss, before they reactivated my account! -Jacob PS. And of course "Blackhole" shouldn't be a banned word either :) "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <9m8i3q$ah43$[email hidden]>, "Jacob Butner" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >They have just disallowed racing NR4 on WON correct? IIRC there isnothing > >stopping him from running races thru direct IP connections.. This maynot

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> >be covered in NR4 license, but I'm sure they have something in the WON > >service usage that states anything unbecoming to the WON service or users > >will result in an immediate ban from the service.. which, IMHO they have > >every right do to.. But then again, there is a line between intential > >wrecking and just a bad day or bad race.. > > So, once someone gets banned in any race(even a pickup race), they can no > longer run in any leagues they may be in...? I've read that if the server

runs > on WON, you can't connect to it thru direct IP connect. Most leagues(AFAIK)

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> still use WON. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Right theres the problem, that would get rid of most of the intentional wreckers. Not for a few bucks a year though. > > I > > would even pay a few dollars a year to race online > > cleanly. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Here's the emails from me and papy back and forth. I felt I was pretty reasonable with them and nice about it... don't know why they were so pissy. Sounds like a good way to run a business and keep customers doesn't it? haha You need to start at the VERY bottom of this message... they emails go in order from the bottom up. Please read these and tell me what you think. Gotta problem as TONS of other people have emailed me about???.... then email [email hidden] and tell them how you feel. I was banned from the N4 Forum (just trying to plead my case) so you can post there too on www.papy.com haha you can email me at [email hidden] with comments thanks for listening guys....at lease someone will since Papy won't. I appreciate it! :) ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() This is my last and final response. I am one of the managers, your cd key ban is final. My response to you saying somebody else may have been using your ID is that it is YOUR responsibility to pw protect your ID and monitor who uses your computer, just in case that was the direction you were planning to head into in an attempt to get your key unbanned. I don't know who told you to contact customer service, but none of my moderators have told you this. You are more than welcome to them if you like, but the final decision comes down to me and the decision has been made. I don't plan to debate cd key bannings, and you are an example of why. Too much time has already been spent on this case. Sincerely, Online Mod [email hidden] -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:47 PM To: Online Mod Subject: RE: Unbanning? NO ONE uses my computer other than me... This is unbelieveable!!! I think you might be running into more and more bans that may have debate. I will be calling the customer service number soon asking to speak with the manage (as instructed by one of your moderators) I appreciate you trying to help out the online racing... but sometimes, the wrong people get in trouble more than the real wreckers. I have raced against some of your moderators, and they know i am a clean racer. BH --- Online Mod <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Both of your ID's have been reported, however we > were unable to retrieve the > replay on your other ID. If it wasn't you, it's on > you because it's your > ID. We have no control over who you let use your > computer. > > > > Online Mod > [email hidden] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:41 PM > To: Online Mod > Subject: RE: Unbanning? > > > thanks for the replay. I'll have to view it when I > get > home from work... > > only a PORTION of what was on the replay that was > clearly deliberate? Honestly guys, with all do > respect...I'm beginning to get the feeling this may > not be me because I don't race like that on or offline. > > > BH >

What would you call this? This is only a portion of what was on the replay, but clearly deliberate. The intentional wrecking message was clearly posted, you saw it every time you logged on. This BAN stands. Online Mod [email hidden] -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:39 PM To: Online Mod Subject: RE: Unbanning? Please send to [email hidden] thanks for your help... I cannot wait to see this BH --- Online Mod <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Provide me with an address that I can send a clip of > your intentional > wrecking. The fact that you claim to have never > intentionally wrecked > somebody is not an honest statement, and this clip > clearly shows that fact. > > Online Mod > [email hidden] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 12:11 PM > To: Online Mod > Subject: Unbanning? > > > All I am asking for is another shot... I'm still > just > unsure what replay you are seeing. I've raced a > demo-derby like race at Bristol... but I was wrecked > a > gazillion times too! haha Nothing was > intentional there... it's just RACING. > I HAVE NEVER DELIBERATELY gone after someone just to > wreck them... that is just pathetic and a waste of > my > time (I could do that off line if i wanted to) > > Please reconsider giving me another shot... I have > very high ratings and lpi and have worked hard. > > I have been a papy fan since the nascar 1 days ... > bought every nascar game and expansion pack... > please > don't lose me as a customer... cause I have turned a > lot of people on to your games in my area. > > Will I get a second chance? I'm sorry for whatever > you see on the replays... but I can assure you > whatever it is you see, there is an explanation for > it.. it was not intentional in a rage. > > thank you again for your time and consideration > > > > --- Online Mod <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Your Dodgefan!! Id was reported for intentional > > wrecking. We were able to > > determine from the server replay that this report > > was valid. Intentional > > wrecking WILL NOT be tolerated in any form, > > regardless of whether you are > > the instigator or retaliator. The only way > somebody > > else could be using > > your cd key is if you gave it to them. I don't > > think that is the case since > > your ID matches the one that was banned. > > > > We have no intention of modifying our methods in > > getting rid of people > > guilty of intentional wrecking. Resetting user > > stats would do nothing but > > allow somebody to come back and continue the > > behavior. The message of the > > day that everybody has to accept each and every > time > > they log onto > > Sierra.com is very clear. Intentional wrecking > WILL > > NOT be tolerated and > > user accounts will be eliminated of those > determined > > to be guilty of this > > rule infraction. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Online Mod > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] > > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:59 AM > > To: [email hidden] > > Subject: Banning online? > > > > > > Hello... I was asked to contact you by some of > your > > moderators in the N4 forum on papy's webpage > > concerning my recent ban online > > > > It seems as though I have been banned and I > honestly > > do not know why I have been. I haven't raced in > > about > > a week... and my ratings and LPI were so high I > > would > > be stupid to go wrecking people and risk loosing > all > > the points I have earned for myself. Personally, > I > > think I have better things to do than go wreck > > people > > haha. :) I even bought a new computer and a > > steering > > wheel just for online racing in the league I am > in. > > > > The only thing I can think of where I was involved > > in > > numerous wrecks was a recent papy race at Bristol. > > > SOMEHOW I did end up winning this race... and > > believe > > me it wasn't from being the faster car or wrecking > > everyone... I was just dang lucky I survived! haha > > > Of course being in a 50 lap race at bristol with > > like > > 30 cars it is a demo derby of some sort... and > yes, > > I > > was involved in numerous accidents... and even did > > make contact with a few cars which were off pace, > > damaged, lapped, and/or flipped/sitting on the > > track....but this is RACING incidents.. not intentional. > > This is the ONLY race I can think of where the > idea > > of > > me even coming close to being a wrecker... which I > > was > > not...and will never be. > > > > Is it possible someone else could be using my cd > > key? > > No one has borrowed or copied my game... cause I > > would not do that.. but is it possible for someone > > to > > hack it? > > > > My usernames online are DodgeFan! and DodgeFan!! > > my cd key I am not sure of because I am at work > > right > > now (i can get back to you later if need be) > > > > One things is clear... I can ASSURE you I will > never > > intentionally wreck anyone and would be > > privelaged to race online once again if possible. > > > > Just a few suggestions from a N4 fan... I really > > like > > the ratings system... but instead of banning > people > > (yes, even those idiots or young kids who sit in > the > > middle of the track or lappers aiming for > > leaders)... > > just simply RESET their ratings back to zero > (0)... > > and leave the good racers up there. If they are > > smart > > drivers... they will build back up their ratings. > > If > > they want to argue or dispute this... they would > > STILL > > at least be able to race online 0-10 servers, > > leagues, > > or with friends. Please consider this... I > > personally > > just don't think it is right to ban people from > > using > > multiplayer in the game completely when there is a > > ratings system that would be perfect for this. > Heck > > I > > would even pay a few dollars a year to race online > > cleanly. > > > > I was even a member of a league which I am unable > to > > race in now too. :( > > > > Anyways... so if you would please... consider > giving > > me back authorization to race online. It would be > > greatly appreciated as I would once again be able > to > > race with the Nascar 4 family online :) > > > > thanks for your time and consideration, > > > > Brandon Hilton

Read all the email, thats not what he said. He indicated that maybe someone was using his cd key, not his id. That wasn't the case anyways. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Dave Casey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%I5i7.4871$[email hidden]... >ban is final. My response to you saying somebody else may >have been using your ID is that it is YOUR responsibility to pw protect >your ID OH! So what you're showing here in this little email is that you told us your account of the events, telling us that you have had a bad on the track and had nearly taken out the leaders in a way that may have been mistaken for intentional wrecking. BUT, instead of telling Papy this, you decided to tell them that someone had used your ID without your knowledge. Okay. Which is the truth. Or is neither one the truth and did you really get caught with your hand in the cookie jar? Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

That is correct. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... In article <9m8i3q$ah43$[email hidden]>, "Jacob Butner" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>They have just disallowed racing NR4 on WON correct? IIRC there is nothing >stopping him from running races thru direct IP connections.. This may not >be covered in NR4 license, but I'm sure they have something in the WON >service usage that states anything unbecoming to the WON service or users >will result in an immediate ban from the service.. which, IMHO they have >every right do to.. But then again, there is a line between intential >wrecking and just a bad day or bad race..

So, once someone gets banned in any race(even a pickup race), they can no longer run in any leagues they may be in...? I've read that if the server runs on WON, you can't connect to it thru direct IP connect. Most leagues (AFAIK) still use WON. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Unfortuantely thats what I got out of it. I've probably even done it myself unintentionally. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... In article <fYOh7.355782$[email hidden]>, "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> writes: >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 and the >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across the track >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to you? That's what I was thinking. From the description, it SOUNDS deliberate. Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too. Not saying it was, but I think people can see why the victim would think so. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going. Yes, I was having a major bad race...I totally admit that... my car was almost completely destroyed...and not to mention it WAS my fault... but TOTALLY NOT INTENTIONAL!!! I don't even know who that guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system haha By the way guys... I was at a 7 rating... so prob. right up there with the guy "whoever he was" that I so-called went after. I wouldn't go wrecking people with that kind of rating that I had worked my butt off for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid of me if I'm a wrecker? If I was going after to wreck him.... believe me... i would have come off the turn LOW and then swerved up high to put him into the wall like most do me lol I also noticed when I rewatched the replay some of my "sharp turns" are for warping wrecked cars sitting on the track as well. Ya know.. I don't remember wreckers being such a problem in N3... maybe this rating system is what has caused it all. oh yea one more problem... why didn't I just exit the race? well... papy designed it where you have to come to a complete stop to even exit the race which sucks. I appoligise for that guy that I swerved in front of... but i didn't wreck him... so that is why I didn't say anything to him. How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars cause i was leading at the time)... or things that I hear other people say like.. "the phone rang"... "someone was at the door" ... "my kids were fighting"... "my kid/dog jumping into my lap".... heck personally... my montior even flickered off in one race back in the N3 days. To me it's just called ONLINE RACING... people make mistakes... did any of you watch the Bristol race last night? Even real nascar driver do stupid things right? I am not saying it was not my fault cause it was... I'm not saying i've never been in a wreck either... cause God knows online racing, it's people sitting in front of a computer trying to be real drivers isn't gonna happen all the time.... what I AM SAYING is... NOTHING WAS INTENTIONAL....never has been and never will be. I have gotten more upset over all of this after the way papy acted... I think there are many other solutions rather than banning me permanently from racing online. We all know the offline AI.... well... lets just say I've never raced a full race offline cause it is a waste of time. I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too far on some things now. I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!! oh well... i'll cya back online soon haha BH "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<xz%h7.137647$[email hidden]>...

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> Sadly B. Hilton I know the person you hit and yes you did hit > him via the replay. He is an extremely serious racer and to me > it does look like you just 'cut right into him' but this is not my > call. Good luck but [for me] I would have to see more then a > 14sec replay to see how you race & your style but JMichaels > is super serious about his ICs & ratings!! I'd guess his rating > is atleast an 6-8 or so? > Btw: When you hit JMichaels, you gave him an IC. He was a > major advocator of getting wreckers offline, IIRC? > Good luck in your quest.. -Thom_j. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

After watching it from the cockpit mode it looks to me like he had time to get low. That however was far from the case and taking into consideration that things in the mirror appear smaller than they really are, it may have been an honest mistake. Not sure why you didn't stay on the the bottom since you were already there and slow enough to hold that line. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Xe_h7.1348$[email hidden]... Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok, here's what really happens. 1. He's driving slow along the apron and switching back on to the track in 3rd gear, and everyone starts to go by. 2. He goes up onto the track, and all of a sudden his speed increases dramatically and goes from about 90mph to over 135 when he comes out of the turn. 3. You see the leader come up behind him through his review mirrors, and is down low to make the pass. 4. When you see the front of the nose what looks like is lined up with the rear of the car, he suddenly swerves down at a VERY great angle 5. The leader tries to turn down with him so he doesn't get hit, but Dodgefan (or B. Hilton) doesn't stop moving down the track 6. They don't make contact until he's actually on the white dotted line that seperates the apron (well not much of one on the straight) to the track. I tried swerving at that angle, at that speed, and tried to turn back at the white dotted line (i looked at the replay and tried several times to make sure I had the right angle) and most of the time, trying not to hit the wall, I had such a big pendulum swing that a lot of times I couldn't get it back. Of course, after a did it a whole lot and used some left foot braking I could JUST hang onto it, and this is with the easy setup btw. Actually, to turn so hard down the track, I had to turn the wheel as much as I could. It was no slight move, you can literally feel the car hurl to the inside. Also, he swerved after the corner, and at a VERY great angle. I don't think if you move to the inside to let the leaders pass you swerve at an angle onto the apron that has a great chance of you spinning out and loosing more time. Though, the leader did hit him, but got lucky because he turned down the track with him and Dodgefan only got the tip of his nose, so the leader went and motored on. You can check out the 14 seconds of the wreck here: http://www.runnyegg.com/alex/dodgefanwreck.zip I uploaded it for everyone so they can make their own decision. But I have to say, that's beyond ignorance and being oblivious IMO. I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who just had a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no doubt in my mind that it was intentional. Thanks, Alex B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

ok Alex... first off I know you are just barely 14 cause you told me this... so I'm guessing you haven't had much experience all the way back since Nacar 1 days like I have. Setups and steering wheels, linear steering cause turn rates to be different for individual people. Lowes (papy's) fixed setup is very loose (IMO) which helps that turning part out. It DOES look really bad... you are right... but you have no right to assume what I did was intentional. Look people... if I was trying to take him out... then why wouldn't I have??? lol.. I mean really... if I am a wrecker I wouldn't go after just one guy... and I certainly wouldn't give up and not "take him out" like a wrecker is suppost to do right? besides... I have been wrecked by a crap load of people... but I don't go whining to Papy about banning them... ya know why.. because it's called ONLINE RACING for crying outloud! The ratings are suppost to seperate the good drivers from the bad, but obviously papy hasn't fixed it to work right yet... so they do the easiest thing and ban people... also making them go out and purchase the game again. If I wanted to be a hardcore, serious racer for points (which I am) I would join a league (which I was in) Even real nascar drivers make stupid mistakes or have a bad day... and I bet they have more control over their cars than we do with all the warping and amateur setups and drivers out there... humans online playing a game with one another... and papy expects everyone to be a professional in every race never wrecking? cmon now... well... papy is going to be going downhill anyways which I am sad to report. Nascar Heat is still selling like crazy due their much better AI offline and ways to edit the game more than N4. Also, lots of papy's main people have left and some are now working with EA Sports... so look for something nice out of them in the future. oh well... sorry you don't see it my way. At least they could have JUST banned me from Papy servers... I can't get on multiplayer AT ALL... so to me the game is pointless now. BH "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Xe_h7.1348$[email hidden]>...

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> Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok, here's > what really happens. > > 1. He's driving slow along the apron and switching back on to the track in > 3rd gear, and everyone starts to go by. > > 2. He goes up onto the track, and all of a sudden his speed increases > dramatically and goes from about 90mph to over 135 when he comes out of the > turn. > > 3. You see the leader come up behind him through his review mirrors, and is > down low to make the pass. > > 4. When you see the front of the nose what looks like is lined up with the > rear of the car, he suddenly swerves down at a VERY great angle > > 5. The leader tries to turn down with him so he doesn't get hit, but > Dodgefan (or B. Hilton) doesn't stop moving down the track > > 6. They don't make contact until he's actually on the white dotted line that > seperates the apron (well not much of one on the straight) to the track. I > tried swerving at that angle, at that speed, and tried to turn back at the > white dotted line (i looked at the replay and tried several times to make > sure I had the right angle) and most of the time, trying not to hit the > wall, I had such a big pendulum swing that a lot of times I couldn't get it > back. Of course, after a did it a whole lot and used some left foot braking > I could JUST hang onto it, and this is with the easy setup btw. Actually, to > turn so hard down the track, I had to turn the wheel as much as I could. It > was no slight move, you can literally feel the car hurl to the inside. > > Also, he swerved after the corner, and at a VERY great angle. I don't think > if you move to the inside to let the leaders pass you swerve at an angle > onto the apron that has a great chance of you spinning out and loosing more > time. > > Though, the leader did hit him, but got lucky because he turned down the > track with him and Dodgefan only got the tip of his nose, so the leader went > and motored on. > > You can check out the 14 seconds of the wreck here: > http://www.runnyegg.com/alex/dodgefanwreck.zip > > I uploaded it for everyone so they can make their own decision. But I have > to say, that's beyond ignorance and being oblivious IMO. > > I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who just had > a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no > doubt in my mind that it was intentional. > > Thanks, > Alex > > > > B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > > what they call "wrecking". > > > > here's their rules: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > > morally). > > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > > from which they banned me from. > > > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > > car!!! > > > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > > out to wreck him intentionally. > > > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > > online, for good. > > > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > > responded again rudely against that. > > > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > > game just to race online. > > > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > > > > thanks for your time! > > > > BH > > Dodgefan!

Read what I write not what you thought I wrote please Dave C!! I did say "try"! As for bullshit I started reading all your posts & was kinda' in agreement but if you can not read info please don't trash others for their subjective comments as yours are too! Btw: After seeing the replay, of this particular incident, by B. Hilton, his best option was just to quit as his car was practically undriveable but thats a moot point at this juncture.. "Dave Casey" wrote: | >Common rule is: "all lappers" Try to always stay high & hold your line. | >It is basic and typed in chat in every race I go in.. It isnt thatunknown! | >I don't know this situation but the above is what all should do or try to | >do in a online Nascar 4 race... | | And that's bullshit. Let me see. I'm a lapper at Darlington. You wantme to | go high and stay there until the faster cars go by? Can you "idiot move"?If | I'm that much slower I'll be on the apron thank you very much. | | Dave Casey --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

"B. Hilton" wrote:

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> > Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going. > > Yes, I was having a major bad race...I totally admit that... my car > was almost completely destroyed...and not to mention it WAS my > fault... but TOTALLY NOT INTENTIONAL!!! I don't even know who that > guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the > way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few > laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing > those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system haha

So you blundered on in an unroadworthy car because of your desire to score more points? If your car was in that bad a shape as to make you a danger, you should have had the good grace to retire! I have NO sympathy.

Now you just contradicted what you told me as bullshit & go back to the stay high & hold line! You are flip-flopping now or your just having a bad PMS day!! :)~ "Dave Casey" wrote:

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| >By the way... I DO have the replay if anyone wants to view it ... it's | >2.6mb and it clearly shows me moving out of the way of everyone... | >unfortunately me and another guy went the same direction to avoid one | >another... BUT there was no wreck... and they classify me as a | >wrecker. | | You don't seem to understand something here. If you had held your line

high, | driving a straight line and one of the leaders had plowed into you, thenshame | on them. It would have been their own damn fault.<snipped for example> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Well BH you just said it yourself "my car was almost completely destroyed." Was it worth it to stay on the track? If you are/were a rated 7 then '15 extra laps' of racing damaged would have hurt your rating but again it is too late now.. I undertsand your "frustration" but I also see the others opinion. Tuff call & thats up to the decsision makers.. Sorry pardner but it looks like you cut right in front of 'JM99' not matter what you sell here.. I am the last to be a 'hard azz' but you openly posted here and if many here see your replay, it doesnt look good.. Good Luck -Thom_j. "B. Hilton" wrote:

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| Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going. | | Yes, I was having a major bad race...I totally admit that... my car | was almost completely destroyed...and not to mention it WAS my | fault... but TOTALLY NOT INTENTIONAL!!! I don't even know who that | guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the | way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few | laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing | those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system haha | | By the way guys... I was at a 7 rating... so prob. right up there with | the guy "whoever he was" that I so-called went after. I wouldn't go | wrecking people with that kind of rating that I had worked my butt off | for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid | of me if I'm a wrecker? | | If I was going after to wreck him.... believe me... i would have come | off the turn LOW and then swerved up high to put him into the wall | like most do me lol | | I also noticed when I rewatched the replay some of my "sharp turns" | are for warping wrecked cars sitting on the track as well. | | Ya know.. I don't remember wreckers being such a problem in N3... | maybe this rating system is what has caused it all. | | oh yea one more problem... why didn't I just exit the race? well... | papy designed it where you have to come to a complete stop to even | exit the race which sucks. | | I appoligise for that guy that I swerved in front of... but i didn't | wreck him... so that is why I didn't say anything to him. | | How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just | something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had | that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel | snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars | cause i was leading at the time)... or things that I hear other people | say like.. "the phone rang"... "someone was at the door" ... "my kids | were fighting"... "my kid/dog jumping into my lap".... heck | personally... my montior even flickered off in one race back in the N3 | days. | | To me it's just called ONLINE RACING... people make mistakes... did | any of you watch the Bristol race last night? Even real nascar driver | do stupid things right? | | I am not saying it was not my fault cause it was... I'm not saying | i've never been in a wreck either... cause God knows online racing, | it's people sitting in front of a computer trying to be real drivers | isn't gonna happen all the time.... what I AM SAYING is... NOTHING WAS | INTENTIONAL....never has been and never will be. | | I have gotten more upset over all of this after the way papy acted... | I think there are many other solutions rather than banning me | permanently from racing online. We all know the offline AI.... | well... lets just say I've never raced a full race offline cause it is | a waste of time. | | I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an | intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too | far on some things now. | | I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning | people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!! | | oh well... i'll cya back online soon haha | | | BH | | | | | | "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<xz%h7.137647$[email hidden]>...

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| > Sadly B. Hilton I know the person you hit and yes you did hit | > him via the replay. He is an extremely serious racer and to me | > it does look like you just 'cut right into him' but this is not my | > call. Good luck but [for me] I would have to see more then a | > 14sec replay to see how you race & your style but JMichaels | > is super serious about his ICs & ratings!! I'd guess his rating | > is atleast an 6-8 or so? | > Btw: When you hit JMichaels, you gave him an IC. He was a | > major advocator of getting wreckers offline, IIRC? | > Good luck in your quest.. -Thom_j. | > | > | > | > --- | > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. | > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). | > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

In article <gy6i7.356449$[email hidden]>, "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> After watching it from the cockpit mode it looks to me like he had time to > get low. That however was far from the case and taking into consideration > that things in the mirror appear smaller than they really are, it may have > been an honest mistake. Not sure why you didn't stay on the the bottom since > you were already there and slow enough to hold that line. > > Mike Grandy > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale >

I'll give it this much. From the outside view it looked bad and intentional. From the cockpit view (his) it didn't look too severe. From the cockpit of the person he cut off it looked like the morons that you see on the highway in the morning trying to make their exit ramp from the center lane.

Yes Mike, My point before I saw the replay was if you are high you always 'try' to stay high & hold your line but seeing he was low & went back up on the track & then back down into JM99 it looks intentional. Not that is was but it does look that way.. "Mike Grandy" wrote: | After watching it from the cockpit mode it looks to me like he had time to | get low. That however was far from the case and taking into consideration | that things in the mirror appear smaller than they really are, it may have | been an honest mistake. Not sure why you didn't stay on the the bottomsince

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| you were already there and slow enough to hold that line. | | Mike Grandy | Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team | 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale | | | | | | | "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:Xe_h7.1348$[email hidden]... | Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok,

here's

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| what really happens. | | 1. He's driving slow along the apron and switching back on to the track in | 3rd gear, and everyone starts to go by. | | 2. He goes up onto the track, and all of a sudden his speed increases | dramatically and goes from about 90mph to over 135 when he comes out of

the | turn. | | 3. You see the leader come up behind him through his review mirrors, andis

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| down low to make the pass. | | 4. When you see the front of the nose what looks like is lined up with the | rear of the car, he suddenly swerves down at a VERY great angle | | 5. The leader tries to turn down with him so he doesn't get hit, but | Dodgefan (or B. Hilton) doesn't stop moving down the track | | 6. They don't make contact until he's actually on the white dotted line

that | seperates the apron (well not much of one on the straight) to the track. I | tried swerving at that angle, at that speed, and tried to turn back at the | white dotted line (i looked at the replay and tried several times to make | sure I had the right angle) and most of the time, trying not to hit the | wall, I had such a big pendulum swing that a lot of times I couldn't getit | back. Of course, after a did it a whole lot and used some left footbraking | I could JUST hang onto it, and this is with the easy setup btw. Actually,to | turn so hard down the track, I had to turn the wheel as much as I could.It | was no slight move, you can literally feel the car hurl to the inside. | | Also, he swerved after the corner, and at a VERY great angle. I don'tthink | if you move to the inside to let the leaders pass you swerve at an angle | onto the apron that has a great chance of you spinning out and loosingmore | time. | | Though, the leader did hit him, but got lucky because he turned down the | track with him and Dodgefan only got the tip of his nose, so the leaderwent

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| and motored on. | | You can check out the 14 seconds of the wreck here: | http://www.runnyegg.com/alex/dodgefanwreck.zip | | I uploaded it for everyone so they can make their own decision. But I have | to say, that's beyond ignorance and being oblivious IMO. | | I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who just

had

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| a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no | doubt in my mind that it was intentional. | | Thanks, | Alex | | | | B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:[email hidden]... | > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) | > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar | > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! | > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 | > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> | > | > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from | > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they | > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. | > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the | > only thing worth a crap to play. | > | > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 | > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to | > what they call "wrecking". | > | > here's their rules: | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 | > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* | > | > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider | > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. | > | > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue | > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if | > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will | > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT | > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled | > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". | > | > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing | > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not | > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue | > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is | > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we | > will no longer accept reports from that individual. | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | > | > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to | > race their game online was not good business practice and bad | > morally). | > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY | > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. | > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... | > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and | > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which | > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. | > | > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the | > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay | > from which they banned me from. | > | > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS | > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons | > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps | > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the | > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every | > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. | > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! | > | > here's what they call me a wrecker from: | > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin | > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me | > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the | > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove | > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass | > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the | > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them | > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the | > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. | > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left | > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him | > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his | > car!!! | > | > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage | > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a | > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had | > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and | > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over | > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on | > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when | > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the | > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the | > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with | > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. | > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as | > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was | > out to wreck him intentionally. | > | > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to | > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to | > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. | > | > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a | > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking | > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the | > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away | > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought | > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once | > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing | > online, for good. | > | > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to | > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were | > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They | > responded again rudely against that. | > | > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of | > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem | > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, | > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. | > | > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns | > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy | > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. | > | > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in | > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive | > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a | > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new | > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb | > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel | > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a | > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... | > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( | > | > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, | > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up | > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar | > game just to race online. | > | > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the | > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email | > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) | > | > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? | > email papy's manager at [email hidden] | > | > | > thanks for your time! | > | > BH | > Dodgefan! | |

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

[email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > Here's the emails from me and papy back and forth. > > I felt I was pretty reasonable with them and nice about it... don't > know why they were so pissy. Sounds like a good way to run a business > and keep customers doesn't it? haha The Economy is too good to expect 'good' customer service, but that's neither here nor there in this case. I don't see them getting pissy with you, I just see them holding firm and explaining to you that he's the guy that makes the decision and Customer Support won't be able to help you. > [email hidden] and tell them how you feel. I was banned from the > N4 Forum (just trying to plead my case) so you can post there too on > www.papy.com Sure, let's all run over to the papy forum and get banned for you... According to the messages, and I don't think you mentioned this anywhere in the thread, your IDs were each caught in an incident similar to this. So you were given 2 chances. BTW, what kind of loser keeps 2 IDs? -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

[email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > will someone please post all of those emails from myself and the papy > manager to the Nascar 4 Forum on the www.papy.com website.... (they > banned me there too) They banned your IP? Why do you want to post stuff there that they don't want posted? Especially on a matter that is closed... -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) writes: >By the way guys... I was at a 7 rating... so prob. right up there with >the guy "whoever he was" that I so-called went after. I wouldn't go >wrecking people with that kind of rating that I had worked my butt off >for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid >of me if I'm a wrecker? >I've heard people say that there are wreckers even in high-rating races - where you'd THINK you'd be safe...

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>If I was going after to wreck him.... believe me... i would have come >off the turn LOW and then swerved up high to put him into the wall >like most do me lol > >I also noticed when I rewatched the replay some of my "sharp turns" >are for warping wrecked cars sitting on the track as well. > >Ya know.. I don't remember wreckers being such a problem in N3... >maybe this rating system is what has caused it all. > >oh yea one more problem... why didn't I just exit the race? well... >papy designed it where you have to come to a complete stop to even >exit the race which sucks.

That's not really a valid argument. Did you crash by yourself, then get going for a while, then almost crash into the leaders? So, during the time you were running after your crash(at least enough time for the leaders to catch you again), you would have known that you couldn't control the car well enough. If you had parked it then, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you had hit the wall, spun around, ended up stopped in the racing line and THEN gotten hit by someone, that would obviously be an unfortunate racing incident. I think people would have to see the *entire* replay from the initial crash that damaged your car to the near crash with the leader. Are you brave enough to let people download and view that? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> writes: >Sure, let's all run over to the papy forum and get banned for you... >I thought about that, too... >According to the messages, and I don't think you mentioned this anywhere in >the thread, your IDs were each caught in an incident similar to this. So >you were given 2 chances. BTW, what kind of loser keeps 2 IDs?I'm sure a LOT of people have multiple ID's. One for league races, one for 'pickup' races. That would keep your LPI numbers from being screwed in a pickup race, and messing up your rating to get in your league race. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <%I5i7.4871$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Dave Casey) writes:

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>>ban is final. My response to you saying somebody else may >>have been using your ID is that it is YOUR responsibility to pw protect >>your ID > >OH! So what you're showing here in this little email is that you told us >your >account of the events, telling us that you have had a bad on the track and >had >nearly taken out the leaders in a way that may have been mistaken for >intentional wrecking. BUT, instead of telling Papy this, you decided to tell > >them that someone had used your ID without your knowledge. Okay. Which is >the truth. Or is neither one the truth and did you really get caught with >your hand in the cookie jar?

I think the moderator was trying to shut down that argument before it started. At least in THAT part of the message... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Well Eddie P, you said it better then I ever could and so I am bowing' out of this mess. phew. It's starting to become funny if it werent so tragic.. Ouch!! Happy Threading All!! :) "Eddie Pettit" wrote: | [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: | | > Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going. | | Well, if you are a wrecker, you just aren't a very good one. Wrecking's a | skill just like racing, you have to be in the right place at the righttime

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| and you must time your deed perfectly to catch your prey... | | > guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the | > way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few | > laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing | > those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system | | Ah, now we have another 'fact'. Why was this blown tire never previously | mentioned? And what's that about these 'valuable' spots in the rating | system? I've never understood why this 'rating' would matter... | | > for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid | > of me if I'm a wrecker? | | What league is this, and why aren't they chiming in? URL? | | > How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just | > something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had | > that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel | > snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars | | Now you have a history of these 'unintentional' incidents... But, had | someone turned you in for that event, they'd have only seen one incident, | unless of course you tried to continue on... | | > I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an | > intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too | > far on some things now. | | You know, you say that, yet I don't see this thread full of "They banned

me

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| too!" posts... | | > I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning | > people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!! | | Probably against the death penalty too, but that's another thread... | Probably be equal in size though... | | -- | Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? | Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com | Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, | starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Well as much as I agree with Papy trying to clean up the racing a little bit, I do think that what they are doing is a bit harsh. 1. I do not think that they should ban someone from one report/incident. I think that a warning could be given (maybe put all the CD-Keys in a list that have a warning and when the person logs in the MOTD mentions to them that they have a warning) and then upon further incidents a ban may be necessary. I imagine that if this was you for a complete accident and you were all of a sudden banned, your view may be different? 2. Why do they need to be banned from total online racing? Why not just ban them from the Papy servers since those are the only ones that Papy is monitoring and to be quite honest, the only servers Papy should have any say about. 3. Kinda leads from #2. I would not be surprised if Papy found themselves in legal action for this. Can you honestly sell someone a game like this and then ban them from using it? I am not going to get into the EULA because according to that, you can not eat toast while playing N4. "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rp6i7.356447$[email hidden]... > Unfortuantely thats what I got out of it. I've probably even done itmyself

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> unintentionally. > > > Mike Grandy > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > In article <fYOh7.355782$[email hidden]>, "Mike Grandy" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 and

the > >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across thetrack

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> >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to you? > > That's what I was thinking. From the description, it SOUNDS deliberate. > Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too. Not saying it > was, > but I think people can see why the victim would think so. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

Hardly, Papy could not prove it was Intentional. They could say it looked intentional, but the court would know that accidents happen. There is no way that Papy could prove that he did it intentionally. "Dave Casey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TI5i7.4863$[email hidden]... > >And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case > >and would win if they could prove it in court. > > He would have to prove that he was banned unfairly and from the account he > posted, he would have a very hard time doing that when the replay wasviewed

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> in court. > > > Dave Casey > Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) > www.teamcasey.net > www.lvkc.com > www.buycoolcrap.com

[email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going. Well, if you are a wrecker, you just aren't a very good one. Wrecking's a skill just like racing, you have to be in the right place at the right time and you must time your deed perfectly to catch your prey... > guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the > way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few > laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing > those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system Ah, now we have another 'fact'. Why was this blown tire never previously mentioned? And what's that about these 'valuable' spots in the rating system? I've never understood why this 'rating' would matter... > for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid > of me if I'm a wrecker? What league is this, and why aren't they chiming in? URL? > How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just > something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had > that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel > snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars Now you have a history of these 'unintentional' incidents... But, had someone turned you in for that event, they'd have only seen one incident, unless of course you tried to continue on... > I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an > intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too > far on some things now. You know, you say that, yet I don't see this thread full of "They banned me too!" posts... > I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning > people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!! Probably against the death penalty too, but that's another thread... Probably be equal in size though... -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

I think what he means is this.. imagine that you are going into turn 3 at michigan and you spin your car. Your car is now in the way of others. Well a few things could happen here. One, others could go slamming into you, call you a intentional wrecker and maybe you are the next on the banned list. Personally, if I slammed into the wall and I was coming off the wall in front of traffic and I knew my day was pretty much over, I would quickly hit ESC, get out of their way and get out of the race. You can not do that now, the way it is now, you could easily cause a 5-6 car pileup before you can stop the car and get out of it. "REDLINE426" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b1Xh7.37430$[email hidden]...

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> Go to your Pit Stall and sit There for rest of race?? DUH? > > -- > R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000 > > >

Type74 wrote:

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> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:57:21 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Yeah revved, how could you..........you....you....you evil person you > > > > rrevved is a big fan of *plonking*, you should ask him about the > *plonk* wars of '99 sometime.

If you go back and read the statement rrevved quoted to you, I think you'll agree that it wasn't the most well thought out statement you've ever seen :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke" --Groucho Marx--

Real racers make mistakes, and yes.. there have been cases of real WC lapped cars taking out the leaders on accident. Guess what? they were there to race the next week "Dave Casey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XI5i7.4867$[email hidden]...

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> >Why don't I stop racing when I have a severely damaged car? Because > >I'm a real racer... and with the rating system Papy designed, we all > > Real racers don't cut across the track in front of the leaders as they are > barrelling down on them. > > > Dave Casey > Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) > www.teamcasey.net > www.lvkc.com > www.buycoolcrap.com

Thats why I always watch a replay from the cockpit, it really gives you a better perspective. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "mustang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... In article <gy6i7.356449$[email hidden]>, "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote: > After watching it from the cockpit mode it looks to me like he had time to > get low. That however was far from the case and taking into consideration > that things in the mirror appear smaller than they really are, it may have > been an honest mistake. Not sure why you didn't stay on the the bottomsince > you were already there and slow enough to hold that line. > > Mike Grandy > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > I'll give it this much. From the outside view it looked bad and intentional. From the cockpit view (his) it didn't look too severe. From the cockpit of the person he cut off it looked like the morons that you see on the highway in the morning trying to make their exit ramp from the center lane.

Ok Cliff, put down the beer and step back.... you are taking this way to seriously. It would be much cheaper to go buy another game then to hire an attorney. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MC7i7.1348$[email hidden]... Hardly, Papy could not prove it was Intentional. They could say it looked intentional, but the court would know that accidents happen. There is no way that Papy could prove that he did it intentionally. "Dave Casey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TI5i7.4863$[email hidden]... > >And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case > >and would win if they could prove it in court. > > He would have to prove that he was banned unfairly and from the account he > posted, he would have a very hard time doing that when the replay was viewed

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> in court. > > > Dave Casey > Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) > www.teamcasey.net > www.lvkc.com > www.buycoolcrap.com

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:32:57 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >If you go back and read the statement rrevved quoted to you, I think >you'll agree that it wasn't the most well thought out statement you've >ever seen :-) No, but then it wasn't meant to be. It was a deliberate reactionary statement. My *plonk* was a joke to rrevved because he is/used to be so fond of plonking people.

Dodgefan, I see no logic whatsoever why you would cut down the track like that. The leader had already exited the turn slower than he could to keep a low line to avoid you. There was no reason for you to dive down save to wreck him. Sorry, but I don't believe your explanation, the whole incident just smacks of malice. If you did that to me I would have reported you. I would like to see a longer replay too. Ian Bell Proud member of http://www.uk-racing.net Get my F1RC setups and track guides at http://race-simulator.com GP3, F12000 setups at http://www.bhmotorsports.com

I definitely think it's unfair to stop people from using the product they paid for. That's essentially what they're doing. Now, if there are other good servers to race on besides Sierra's then it's a moot point. I guess it would be anyway. I assume you'd only be banned from Sierra's servers, not from online racing in general. Anyway, I think you should fight Papyrus on this. Total lack of common sense and good judgement on thier part. -- ------------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ ------------------------------------- "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they [carp] > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

He was banned from the Sierra.com matching servers. That includes anyone that posts a race or runs a server on the Sierra.com matching servers. If you look at the box it says nothing about Papyrus providing servers for anyone to race on, only that multiplayer support up to 43 players over LAn or Internet. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2s8i7.5188$[email hidden]... I definitely think it's unfair to stop people from using the product they paid for. That's essentially what they're doing. Now, if there are other good servers to race on besides Sierra's then it's a moot point. I guess it would be anyway. I assume you'd only be banned from Sierra's servers, not from online racing in general. Anyway, I think you should fight Papyrus on this. Total lack of common sense and good judgement on thier part. -- ------------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ ------------------------------------- "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they [carp] > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

Time to buck up and buy another copy of N4, a good lesson if you asked me. Nothing else works so hit em in the pocket book. -- Darrin Stevens www.Stevens-Racing.com www.TeamECR.com www.SimRaceCar.com www.Thomas-SuperWheel.com "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going. > > Yes, I was having a major bad race...I totally admit that... my car > was almost completely destroyed...and not to mention it WAS my > fault... but TOTALLY NOT INTENTIONAL!!! I don't even know who that > guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the > way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few > laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing > those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system haha > > By the way guys... I was at a 7 rating... so prob. right up there with > the guy "whoever he was" that I so-called went after. I wouldn't go > wrecking people with that kind of rating that I had worked my butt off > for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid > of me if I'm a wrecker? > > If I was going after to wreck him.... believe me... i would have come > off the turn LOW and then swerved up high to put him into the wall > like most do me lol > > I also noticed when I rewatched the replay some of my "sharp turns" > are for warping wrecked cars sitting on the track as well. > > Ya know.. I don't remember wreckers being such a problem in N3... > maybe this rating system is what has caused it all. > > oh yea one more problem... why didn't I just exit the race? well... > papy designed it where you have to come to a complete stop to even > exit the race which sucks. > > I appoligise for that guy that I swerved in front of... but i didn't > wreck him... so that is why I didn't say anything to him. > > How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just > something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had > that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel > snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars > cause i was leading at the time)... or things that I hear other people > say like.. "the phone rang"... "someone was at the door" ... "my kids > were fighting"... "my kid/dog jumping into my lap".... heck > personally... my montior even flickered off in one race back in the N3 > days. > > To me it's just called ONLINE RACING... people make mistakes... did > any of you watch the Bristol race last night? Even real nascar driver > do stupid things right? > > I am not saying it was not my fault cause it was... I'm not saying > i've never been in a wreck either... cause God knows online racing, > it's people sitting in front of a computer trying to be real drivers > isn't gonna happen all the time.... what I AM SAYING is... NOTHING WAS > INTENTIONAL....never has been and never will be. > > I have gotten more upset over all of this after the way papy acted... > I think there are many other solutions rather than banning me > permanently from racing online. We all know the offline AI.... > well... lets just say I've never raced a full race offline cause it is > a waste of time. > > I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an > intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too > far on some things now. > > I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning > people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!! > > oh well... i'll cya back online soon haha > > > BH > > > > > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<xz%h7.137647$[email hidden]>... > > Sadly B. Hilton I know the person you hit and yes you did hit > > him via the replay. He is an extremely serious racer and to me > > it does look like you just 'cut right into him' but this is not my > > call. Good luck but [for me] I would have to see more then a > > 14sec replay to see how you race & your style but JMichaels > > is super serious about his ICs & ratings!! I'd guess his rating > > is atleast an 6-8 or so? > > Btw: When you hit JMichaels, you gave him an IC. He was a > > major advocator of getting wreckers offline, IIRC? > > Good luck in your quest.. -Thom_j. > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Seems to me if it mattered that much for someone to be able to continue racing online, they'd just go pick up another copy of the game and learn from the experience. Certainly, if it happened to me and it was a complete accident, I would argue the decision with Papy, but if it held I would just go grab another copy of the game if I wanted to continue racing on the Won service. Don Burnette "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2x7i7.1347$[email hidden]...

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> Well as much as I agree with Papy trying to clean up the racing a little > bit, I do think that what they are doing is a bit harsh. > > 1. I do not think that they should ban someone from one report/incident. > I think that a warning could be given (maybe put all the CD-Keys in a list > that have a warning and when the person logs in the MOTD mentions to them > that they have a warning) and then upon further incidents a ban may be > necessary. I imagine that if this was you for a complete accident and

you > were all of a sudden banned, your view may be different? > > 2. Why do they need to be banned from total online racing? Why not justban > them from the Papy servers since those are the only ones that Papy is > monitoring and to be quite honest, the only servers Papy should have anysay > about. > > 3. Kinda leads from #2. I would not be surprised if Papy foundthemselves

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> in legal action for this. Can you honestly sell someone a game like this > and then ban them from using it? I am not going to get into the EULA > because according to that, you can not eat toast while playing N4. > > > "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:rp6i7.356447$[email hidden]... > > Unfortuantely thats what I got out of it. I've probably even done it > myself > > unintentionally. > > > > > > Mike Grandy > > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <fYOh7.355782$[email hidden]>, "Mike

Grandy"

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> > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 and > the > > >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across the > track > > >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to

you? > > > > That's what I was thinking. From the description, it SOUNDS deliberate. > > Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too. Not sayingit

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> > was, > > but I think people can see why the victim would think so. > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

Type74 wrote:

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> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:32:57 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >If you go back and read the statement rrevved quoted to you, I think > >you'll agree that it wasn't the most well thought out statement you've > >ever seen :-) > > No, but then it wasn't meant to be. It was a deliberate reactionary > statement. My *plonk* was a joke to rrevved because he is/used to be > so fond of plonking people.

LOL, ok, nevermind...:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke" --Groucho Marx--

Hey, Only got a couple of things to say. > way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few > laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing > those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system haha One...what the hell?! You lost a tire and kept going? No excuse for that. Perhaps Papy needs to add a black flag for these situations...i'm pretty sure NASCAR wouldn't allow a real driver to do that. > oh yea one more problem... why didn't I just exit the race? well... > papy designed it where you have to come to a complete stop to even > exit the race which sucks. Two...Papy made it so you had to stop the car so people don't hit escape out of the race and leave their car to go flingin' down the track, notice during a race if you hit escape now, you can't go straight to the replay. It's either 'get out of car' or 'call tow'. That is no excuse as well. You got a problem....say, a blown tire...pit and fix it or get out of the race. > I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning > people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!! Fix the game? How 'bout you just learn to control the car? This incident has nothing to do with what needs to be fixed in the game. I got a quick fix for the ratings system, also. Yank it! If people like you can't keep their fricken car under them and would rather stay out with a blown tire because of the ratings sytem, then who needs it? Not me, the only racing i do (when i ever race in the first place these days) is with leagues anyways because of crap like this that goes on. -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com

Agreed. If my car was that bad, I would definitely have parked it, or dropped down below the apron and called for a tow. The only place this debate matters is between Hilton and Papy, and it doesn't sound like Papy will budge on this matter. Don Burnette "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:C%6i7.139197$[email hidden]...

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> Well BH you just said it yourself "my car was almost completely > destroyed." Was it worth it to stay on the track? If you are/were > a rated 7 then '15 extra laps' of racing damaged would have hurt > your rating but again it is too late now.. > I undertsand your "frustration" but I also see the others opinion. > Tuff call & thats up to the decsision makers.. Sorry pardner but > it looks like you cut right in front of 'JM99' not matter what you > sell here.. I am the last to be a 'hard azz' but you openly posted > here and if many here see your replay, it doesnt look good.. > Good Luck -Thom_j. > > "B. Hilton" wrote: > | Remember... I didn't HIT anyone... he kept on going. > | > | Yes, I was having a major bad race...I totally admit that... my car > | was almost completely destroyed...and not to mention it WAS my > | fault... but TOTALLY NOT INTENTIONAL!!! I don't even know who that > | guy was... and I would have no reason to go after him. and by the > | way... the sharp turns are due to a blown tire which with only a few > | laps left I wanted to make it around the track to keep from losing > | those valuable spots with the freakin ratings system haha > | > | By the way guys... I was at a 7 rating... so prob. right up there with > | the guy "whoever he was" that I so-called went after. I wouldn't go > | wrecking people with that kind of rating that I had worked my butt off > | for also. I'm in a big league as well... so why haven't they got rid > | of me if I'm a wrecker? > | > | If I was going after to wreck him.... believe me... i would have come > | off the turn LOW and then swerved up high to put him into the wall > | like most do me lol > | > | I also noticed when I rewatched the replay some of my "sharp turns" > | are for warping wrecked cars sitting on the track as well. > | > | Ya know.. I don't remember wreckers being such a problem in N3... > | maybe this rating system is what has caused it all. > | > | oh yea one more problem... why didn't I just exit the race? well... > | papy designed it where you have to come to a complete stop to even > | exit the race which sucks. > | > | I appoligise for that guy that I swerved in front of... but i didn't > | wreck him... so that is why I didn't say anything to him. > | > | How does papy distinguish "Intentional Wrecking" rather than just > | something weird that COULD happen like steering wheel breaking (i had > | that happen to me a few months ago... the bungee inside the wheel > | snapped while turning at daytona... end up me taking out a lot of cars > | cause i was leading at the time)... or things that I hear other people > | say like.. "the phone rang"... "someone was at the door" ... "my kids > | were fighting"... "my kid/dog jumping into my lap".... heck > | personally... my montior even flickered off in one race back in the N3 > | days. > | > | To me it's just called ONLINE RACING... people make mistakes... did > | any of you watch the Bristol race last night? Even real nascar driver > | do stupid things right? > | > | I am not saying it was not my fault cause it was... I'm not saying > | i've never been in a wreck either... cause God knows online racing, > | it's people sitting in front of a computer trying to be real drivers > | isn't gonna happen all the time.... what I AM SAYING is... NOTHING WAS > | INTENTIONAL....never has been and never will be. > | > | I have gotten more upset over all of this after the way papy acted... > | I think there are many other solutions rather than banning me > | permanently from racing online. We all know the offline AI.... > | well... lets just say I've never raced a full race offline cause it is > | a waste of time. > | > | I am not the only one who has been banned on suspicion of being an > | intentional wrecker and is not... papy might be going just a lil too > | far on some things now. > | > | I'm tired of these "quick fixes" to solve everything... quit banning > | people and fix the game and the rating system to WORK the right way!!! > | > | oh well... i'll cya back online soon haha > | > | > | BH > | > | > | > | > | > | "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:<xz%h7.137647$[email hidden]>... > | > Sadly B. Hilton I know the person you hit and yes you did hit > | > him via the replay. He is an extremely serious racer and to me > | > it does look like you just 'cut right into him' but this is not my > | > call. Good luck but [for me] I would have to see more then a > | > 14sec replay to see how you race & your style but JMichaels > | > is super serious about his ICs & ratings!! I'd guess his rating > | > is atleast an 6-8 or so? > | > Btw: When you hit JMichaels, you gave him an IC. He was a > | > major advocator of getting wreckers offline, IIRC? > | > Good luck in your quest.. -Thom_j. > | > > | > > | > > | > --- > | > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > | > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > | > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001 > >

here's an interesting email someone sent me: When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion, they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather upset. This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file. In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account, with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers. With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner that caused an incident online. I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy.

people are aguing I should have held my line.... well, yea I prob should have now that i know he was going low but.... From the Nascar 4 Forum - www.papy.com - RULES FOR RACING ONLINE 10: If you've been damaged and are just slower than normal speed... STAY OUT OF THE GROOVE! (Big pet peeve of mine) There's nothing worse than realizing the guy in front of you is way too slow and in your lane, and then trying to dodge him. Especially if he goes high to avoid you and you go high to let him by. 11: If you are a lapped car, DO NOT race lead lap cars. Move out of their way and catch on to the tail end of them. That way they're not slowed down trying to get around you and you may actually be able to pick up more positions. I had a guy hold me up for 10 laps at Tona today, he was blocking every move I made. I finally got around him, but by then our pack didn't have enough time to catch the leader. EVERYONE has different ideas about how to race online... but that's why they call it ONLINE RACING... if papy wants to set rules... they need to do it from the start...and in great detail!!! Ya know.. WE ALL are forgetting ONE THING MAYBE THAT GUY SHOULD HAVE USED AUTOCHAT TOO "Going Low...pls stay high" then maybe I would have known as well there's just too many "what if's" to start banning people left and right... the multiplayer is the only thing worth a crap in the game haha... at least Heat is good on and off

And the same goes for the word whole, as in: We went three wide for almost the @#$! lap. ;) -Gregor Jacob Butner wrote: > > PS. And of course "Blackhole" shouldn't be a banned word either :) >

Maybe a tough way to learn a lesson, but now you know that to appologize when causing trouble is always the right way to go, even if it's nonintentional and causes you to loose a second or two. -Gregor B. Hilton wrote: > > I appoligise for that guy that I swerved in front of... but i didn't > wreck him... so that is why I didn't say anything to him. >

Guys, I've gotten crashed out by wreckers so often that I am grateful to Papy for having started taking action, and their anti-wrecker measures have had a positive effect on the quality of the races on WON. If Dodgefans' moves were just bad judgement, I'm sorry to hear he got banned, but after reading his mail and watching the excerpt from the replay Alex uploaded, I have to say that if this doesn't at least _look_ like wrecking, then what should wrecking look like. Especially if you consider that Dodgefan's mishaps always affected the same other driver. If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for measures against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers badly, Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasant job, and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when they're only trying to help us. I don't think Papy would mind good suggestions on how to improve the situation, maybe use a 'second chance' type of system of punishments or temporary bans (2 months on first offence, 6 months on second?). But starting to muse about legal action when Papy is only trying to help us is not the way to go. Achim

one thing about the escape key. In N3 if youhit the escape key, your car would still be on the track, in the way and a big problem. Until you exited the race totally your car is a menace. dave henrie "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HK7i7.1350$[email hidden]... > I think what he means is this.. imagine that you are going into turn 3 at > michigan and you spin your car. > > Your car is now in the way of others. Well a few things could happenhere. > One, others could go slamming into you, call you a intentional wrecker and > maybe you are the next on the banned list. > > Personally, if I slammed into the wall and I was coming off the wall in > front of traffic and I knew my day was pretty much over, I would quicklyhit

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> ESC, get out of their way and get out of the race. You can not do that > now, the way it is now, you could easily cause a 5-6 car pileup before you > can stop the car and get out of it. > > "REDLINE426" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:b1Xh7.37430$[email hidden]... > > Go to your Pit Stall and sit There for rest of race?? DUH? > > > > -- > > R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000 > > > > > > > >

<snip> > You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". Wheres the problem?

You have 2 kids and your 23? They have over a 7 rank at an SS, ST, RC, or SW? Thanks, Alex B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> here's an interesting email someone sent me: > > > When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it > is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra > network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no > statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be > removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my > driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and > Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion, > they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather > upset. > > This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD > key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it > in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It > holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file. > > In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified > enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and > LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get > deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account, > with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the > CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can > distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the > player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY > servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers. > > With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY > purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone > else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner > that caused an incident online. > > I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy.

I've yet to see one league where "sry" was banned because of a no-chat rule, Thats ridiculous. -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <w0Sh7.25929$[email hidden]>, "Biz" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >No, but they should see the apology from your kb........... > > If it was a pickup race, maybe. Some leagues have a 'no chat' rule. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Don't the rules state that you should "all" hold your line? If so, why wasn't the striking driver penalized also? *Just as Guilty?, it appears! Just another failed program by Papy, IMO.

[email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified > enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and > LPI than I have. LOL. Poor kids... -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: >> In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified >> enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and >> LPI than I have. LOL. > > Poor kids... >

As this thread twists, he keeps bringing in new things... If these kids have better ratings and LPI than you, why do you start by saying they are old enough and qualified enough? That implies they aren't yet racing online. -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

A quick question: Since it appears this thread will be growing for awhile, When you're *banned* do they pull your CD-Key only? Or do they they get your IP address too? -Thom_j. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Looks Like? Must be? Clearly intentional? How about Guilty, until proven innocent? I watched the replay and I see no conclusive evidence of intent, except to get out of the way. And why wasn't the striking car holding his line, as the rules state? This is Pathetic! But clearly an example of the "new" American Way. Kick your dog instead, it can't post here! *LOL*

Hey Jacob B! "Bighole" should tho'... hahaha :) Dag this thread is getting funnier by each post! Keep it up guyz I'm havin' fun! :) | Jacob Butner wrote: | > | > PS. And of course "Blackhole" shouldn't be a banned word either :) | > | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

You gotta love it!! Alex doesnt miss a beat..lol :) "Alex Kihurani" wrote: | You have 2 kids and your 23? They have over a 7 rank at an SS, ST, RC, or | SW? | Thanks, | Alex --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > This sounds like the arguments about Blizzard's BattleNet having terrible > connections for Diablo II. Some people say it's a free service, so you > shouldn't complain. Others say that the game was marketed as amultiplayer > game, increased sales that way, and no one would have bought it WITHOUT > multiplayer... > > Eldred In the case of NASCAR4 I have successfully joined an online race without going through sierra.com (ie direct connexion) that's as much as I'm "entitled" to in terms of functionality offered on the box cover. the sierra.com is an added bonus, except when everyone who makes a mistake is permanently banned, and nobody can race there anymore, of course. cheers John

Hmm? "As The RAS World Turns" :) Ya` just gotta love it!! "Eddie Pettit" wrote:

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| As this thread twists, he keeps bringing in new things... If these kids | have better ratings and LPI than you, why do you start by saying they are | old enough and qualified enough? That implies they aren't yet racing | online. | | Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> wrote: | As this thread twists, he keeps bringing in new things... If these kids | have better ratings and LPI than you, why do you start by saying they are | old enough and qualified enough? That implies they aren't yet racing | online. | | > [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: | >> In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified | >> enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and | >> LPI than I have. LOL. | >

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:709i7.116159$[email hidden]...

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> Seems to me if it mattered that much for someone to be able to continue > racing online, they'd just go pick up another copy of the game and learn > from the experience. > Certainly, if it happened to me and it was a complete accident, I would > argue the decision with Papy, but if it held I would just go grab another > copy of the game if I wanted to continue racing on the Won service. > > Don Burnette >

Of course, NASCAR4 is no longer available in any high street retailers in the UK. Not B.Hilton's problem probably, but a consideration for those of us racing from the east side of the pond... If it happened to me (and I mean being wrongfully banned if that is the case) then I would boycott every papyrus product ever subsequently released. Cutting of my nose to spite my face, maybe, but I wouldn't give any more of my money to a company that did that to me. cheers John

There's always another game for sale in the store! If he want's to pay $50 for every time he gets banned then more power to him. I would think he would use better judgement in the future, unless he likes buying a new game every week. :) -- Sean Higgins Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com Redline BGN Division http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <f5Uh7.5919$[email hidden]>, "Sean Higgins" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and > >explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is that > >important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and Learn! > > > > ...And if it happens again...? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

LOL, that's what I said!! Damn copy cat! hehe -- Sean Higgins Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com Redline BGN Division http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:358i7.391840$[email hidden]... Ok Cliff, put down the beer and step back.... you are taking this way to seriously. It would be much cheaper to go buy another game then to hire an attorney. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MC7i7.1348$[email hidden]... Hardly, Papy could not prove it was Intentional. They could say it looked intentional, but the court would know that accidents happen. There is no way that Papy could prove that he did it intentionally. "Dave Casey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TI5i7.4863$[email hidden]... > >And what about the people being banned unfairly? They do have a case > >and would win if they could prove it in court. > > He would have to prove that he was banned unfairly and from the account he > posted, he would have a very hard time doing that when the replay was viewed > in court. > > > Dave Casey > Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) > www.teamcasey.net > www.lvkc.com > www.buycoolcrap.com

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:42:47 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok, here's >what really happens.<snip> >I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who just had >a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no >doubt in my mind that it was intentional. Alex.. this banning and blaming stuff is quite dangerous. It's extremely hard to tell if a crash was intentional even if you have the replay. I did not watch the replay, this topic is interesting enough to keep it general, I don't want to start an endless discussion about this particulair replay. Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for this if it happens once. Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid accident a ban would be justified. Andre >Thanks, >Alex

Agree, all the more since us European Historic GP drivers aren't known quantities in Nascar and therefore our actions might be interpreted as intentional wrecking, whereas as a "known good" racer might get away with the same. I find this very worrying indeed. While I hope honest mistakes would be recognised as such, but in light of recent events I'm not intent on finding out. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Andre Warringa" wrote...

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> <snip> > Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. > With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, > driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming > him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. > > Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing > an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. > One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and > taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it > even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for > this if it happens once. > Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. > > A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the > warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend > himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid > accident a ban would be justified. > > Andre > > >Thanks, > >Alex >

"B. Hilton" wrote:

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> > here's an interesting email someone sent me: > > When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it > is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra > network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no > statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be > removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my > driving ability or my driving judgement.

<snip> The MOTD states this. And you must respond OK each time you wish to race online. No case there. Next..... -- Fester

Don, not everyone has the money to go out and spend another $40 due to a "mistake". I do not know about you, but I do not like just throwing $40 out the window. If you do, let me email you my paypal account info :) "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:709i7.116159$[email hidden]...

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> Seems to me if it mattered that much for someone to be able to continue > racing online, they'd just go pick up another copy of the game and learn > from the experience. > Certainly, if it happened to me and it was a complete accident, I would > argue the decision with Papy, but if it held I would just go grab another > copy of the game if I wanted to continue racing on the Won service. > > Don Burnette > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:2x7i7.1347$[email hidden]... > > Well as much as I agree with Papy trying to clean up the racing a little > > bit, I do think that what they are doing is a bit harsh. > > > > 1. I do not think that they should ban someone from one

report/incident. > > I think that a warning could be given (maybe put all the CD-Keys in alist > > that have a warning and when the person logs in the MOTD mentions tothem

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> > that they have a warning) and then upon further incidents a ban may be > > necessary. I imagine that if this was you for a complete accident and > you > > were all of a sudden banned, your view may be different? > > > > 2. Why do they need to be banned from total online racing? Why not just > ban > > them from the Papy servers since those are the only ones that Papy is > > monitoring and to be quite honest, the only servers Papy should have any > say > > about. > > > > 3. Kinda leads from #2. I would not be surprised if Papy found > themselves > > in legal action for this. Can you honestly sell someone a game like

this

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> > and then ban them from using it? I am not going to get into the EULA > > because according to that, you can not eat toast while playing N4. > > > > > > "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:rp6i7.356447$[email hidden]... > > > Unfortuantely thats what I got out of it. I've probably even done it > > myself > > > unintentionally. > > > > > > > > > Mike Grandy > > > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > > > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <fYOh7.355782$[email hidden]>, "Mike > Grandy" > > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > > >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2

and

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> > the > > > >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across the > > track > > > >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look like to > you? > > > > > > That's what I was thinking. From the description, it SOUNDS

deliberate. > > > Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too. Notsaying

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> it > > > was, > > > but I think people can see why the victim would think so. > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then

beats

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> > you > > > with experience... > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > >

I could exit N3 alot faster than N4. I do not have a problem with the way it is, but regardless.. I can look at it from a neutral point of view and see the other side of the coin. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dhai7.8016$[email hidden]... > one thing about the escape key. In N3 if youhit the escape key, yourcar > would still be on the track, in the way and a big problem. Until youexited > the race totally your car is a menace. > dave henrie > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:HK7i7.1350$[email hidden]... > > I think what he means is this.. imagine that you are going into turn 3at > > michigan and you spin your car. > > > > Your car is now in the way of others. Well a few things could happen > here. > > One, others could go slamming into you, call you a intentional wreckerand

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> > maybe you are the next on the banned list. > > > > Personally, if I slammed into the wall and I was coming off the wall in > > front of traffic and I knew my day was pretty much over, I would quickly > hit > > ESC, get out of their way and get out of the race. You can not do that > > now, the way it is now, you could easily cause a 5-6 car pileup before

you

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> > can stop the car and get out of it. > > > > "REDLINE426" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:b1Xh7.37430$[email hidden]... > > > Go to your Pit Stall and sit There for rest of race?? DUH? > > > > > > -- > > > R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Sean, have you never made a mistake while racing? I am sure that at one point in time you have made some mistake that if the replay was looked at, it would look like intentional wrecking. It has happened to all of us. What is scary that it could happen at any time and *poof*, you are banned. "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cSbi7.8195$[email hidden]... > There's always another game for sale in the store! If he want's to pay$50 > for every time he gets banned then more power to him. I would think he > would use better judgement in the future, unless he likes buying a newgame

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> every week. :) > > -- > > Sean Higgins > > Redline Racing League > www.rrlnrs.com > > Redline BGN Division > http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <f5Uh7.5919$[email hidden]>, "Sean > Higgins" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and > > >explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is > that > > >important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and Learn! > > > > > > > ...And if it happens again...? > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

He's 23 and has 2 kids that have higher than a 7 rank. hehehehehehe Thanks, Alex Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > >> In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified > >> enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and > >> LPI than I have. LOL. > > > > Poor kids... > > > > As this thread twists, he keeps bringing in new things... If these kids > have better ratings and LPI than you, why do you start by saying they are > old enough and qualified enough? That implies they aren't yet racing > online. > > -- > Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? > Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com > Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, > starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

Call me sly, but if I was wrongfully banned, I'd buy a new copy of N4, swap the disks and return it under the 10 day no question exchange policy ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cSbi7.8195$[email hidden]... > There's always another game for sale in the store! If he want's to pay $50 > for every time he gets banned then more power to him. I would think he > would use better judgement in the future, unless he likes buying a new game > every week. :) > > -- > > Sean Higgins > > Redline Racing League > www.rrlnrs.com > > Redline BGN Division > http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <f5Uh7.5919$[email hidden]>, "Sean > Higgins" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Ya that will be cheaper than $50. LMAO Just bite the bullet and > > >explain your case to Papy, if they don't like it, and racing online is > that > > >important to you go buy another copy of the game. Live and Learn! > > > > > > > ...And if it happens again...? > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

On 25 Aug 2001 04:13:39 -0700, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote:

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>As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin >in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me >(since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the >racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove >to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass >me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the >leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them >pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the >same area trying to get out of the way of each other. >So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left >rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him >you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his >car!!!

On larger tracks slower cars always stay HIGH! Dodging to the bottom or the top causes wrecks.

He only posted the bad part of the replay.. you fail to see how many cars I let pass cleanly. Also... read this below: From: Chuck ([email hidden]) Subject: Re: AFTER watching the replay MYSELF, here are MY VIEWS :) Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators View this article only Date: 2001-08-26 11:48:20 PST Looks Like? Must be? Clearly intentional? How about Guilty, until proven innocent? I watched the replay and I see no conclusive evidence of intent, except to get out of the way. And why wasn't the striking car holding his line, as the rules state? This is Pathetic! But clearly an example of the "new" American Way. "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Wx8i7.25459$[email hidden]>...

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> Dodgefan, I see no logic whatsoever why you would cut down the track like > that. The leader had already exited the turn slower than he could to keep a > low line to avoid you. There was no reason for you to dive down save to > wreck him. > > Sorry, but I don't believe your explanation, the whole incident just smacks > of malice. If you did that to me I would have reported you. > > I would like to see a longer replay too. > > Ian Bell > > Proud member of http://www.uk-racing.net > > Get my F1RC setups and track guides at http://race-simulator.com > > GP3, F12000 setups at http://www.bhmotorsports.com

Andre, my fellow league racer :) there are also other factors that come in to play. First, he says he has A LOT of experience racing online and has been racing Papyrus's series since NASCAR 1, therefore he should know to hold his line after all these years, 2. he just added he swerved so sharply because of a blown tired, well if your tire is blown, why did he keep going around the track a few laps instead of pitting? (I have the 2.62mb replay but just cut it down smaller so you can just see the wreck) 3. He's never once posted here EVER (check the archives) so how can we really trust him? 4. He claims he's in a league but fails to tell us the URL of it. 5. He claims he has 2 kids that have better ranks than he has, but he's 23 and claims to have a 7 rating at SS, ST, SW, or RC (didn't specify) 5. Watch the replay in slow motion, you'll notice contact isn't made until his front wheels are over the dotted line, I don't think you swerve sharply all the way down to the apron to let the leaders pass. Your pretty much saying what I said. I think Papy's rule is a bit strict, but I did mention he could have just been frustrated and had a dark moment, but to me it looked really intentional. I tried swerving like he did on the same track offline and it's extremely hard to get back on track after swerving that hard. Thanks, Alex Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:42:47 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok,here's > >what really happens. > <snip> > >I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who justhad

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> >a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no > >doubt in my mind that it was intentional. > > Alex.. this banning and blaming stuff is quite dangerous. It's > extremely hard to tell if a crash was intentional even if you have the > replay. > I did not watch the replay, this topic is interesting enough to keep > it general, I don't want to start an endless discussion about this > particulair replay. > > Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. > With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, > driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming > him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. > > Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing > an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. > One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and > taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it > even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for > this if it happens once. > Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. > > A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the > warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend > himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid > accident a ban would be justified. > > Andre > > >Thanks, > >Alex >

Hey, Uuuhhh...no. The overtaking car is the one who should be deciding where to go. Lapper...hold your line. Why is this so difficult to grasp? That doesn't mean the lapper cannot go high. That means that where ever the lappers goes..stay there! Don't change lanes as the leaders are bearing down on you. And why are we saying it's the programs fault for drivers' mistakes? -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com "Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Don't the rules state that you should "all" hold your line? > If so, why wasn't the striking driver penalized also? > > *Just as Guilty?, it appears! > Just another failed program by Papy, IMO.

Hey, So you lied...you flat out lied to Papy. So much for that "i'm a strong christian" part a bit earlier, eh? In those emails you posted, you stated to them that you are the ONLY one that uses your computer, and now you're saying you have two kids that race also. So which is it? -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > here's an interesting email someone sent me: > > > When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it > is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra > network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no > statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be > removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my > driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and > Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion, > they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather > upset. > > This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD > key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it > in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It > holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file. > > In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified > enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and > LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get > deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account, > with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the > CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can > distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the > player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY > servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers. > > With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY > purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone > else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner > that caused an incident online. > > I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy. >

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > And why wasn't the striking car holding his line, as the rules state? You're taking this way out of context. Holding your line means once you go somewhere (wether it be high or low) you sit your ass there and wait for it to be clear. It does NOT mean to never move your fricken car. Not a difficult concept here. -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com

"Alex Kihurani" wrote in > Did anyone ever search R.A.S.'s history for his name? I searched the > archives and this is the ONLY topic he's ever started or replied to. Tome, > his comments don't have much credibility. > No offence, but why the hell does the number of posts he has made here matter?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) writes: >Ya know.. WE ALL are forgetting ONE THING >MAYBE THAT GUY SHOULD HAVE USED AUTOCHAT TOO >"Going Low...pls stay high" then maybe I would have known as well > It isn't the responsibility of the following driver to tell you where he's going. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) writes:

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>This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD >key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it >in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It >holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file. > >In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified >enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and >LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get >deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account, >with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the >CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can >distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the >player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY >servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers. > >With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY >purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone >else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner >that caused an incident online.

So if they didn't ban the CD-Key, an intentional wrecker who had been banned could just create another ID, and login again. That's not good, either. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <HK7i7.1350$[email hidden]>, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Your car is now in the way of others. Well a few things could happen here. >One, others could go slamming into you, call you a intentional wrecker and >maybe you are the next on the banned list. > >Personally, if I slammed into the wall and I was coming off the wall in >front of traffic and I knew my day was pretty much over, I would quickly hit >ESC, get out of their way and get out of the race. You can not do that >now, the way it is now, you could easily cause a 5-6 car pileup before you >can stop the car and get out of it.

But that would be a racing incident, and everyone viewing said replay could see that it wasn't on purpose. That's whad happens in close racing. Someone near the front of the pack crashes and takes a few cars with him. I don't see THAT as being intentional, and I wouldn't report as such even if I was the victim. The wreck as he described it is MUCH different... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:31:32 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Andre, my fellow league racer :) Heya :) >there are also other factors that come in >to play. First, he says he has A LOT of experience racing online and has<snip> Point made, his story seems quite dubious, but look at what is happening now. One guy posts his comments about his ban here and allready the thread contains more than 150 posts discussing if the ban was justified. I'm affraid what with all this banning stuff RAS will turn into LA Law, with people acting as Perry Mason or Judge Dredd here.. I am not talking about this single case here, it's about the general principle.. Papy keeping an eye on the online community is good, Papy banning people from playing a game, which they paid good money for, after a dubious accident is bad. I play GPL now for 3 years, I play it a lot online and still once in a while I'm the cause of an unfortunate accident. I wouldn't feel really easy if there was a chance someone would complain and I would immediately get a total ban.. Andre

"Will DeRivera" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Hey, > > So you lied...you flat out lied to Papy. So much for that "i'm a strong > christian" part a bit earlier, eh? In those emails you posted, you > stated to them that you are the ONLY one that uses your computer, and > now you're saying you have two kids that race also. So which is it? Busted! -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

Someone sent him that email it is not his, as referenced by: >> here's an interesting email someone sent me: On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:38:04 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>You have 2 kids and your 23? They have over a 7 rank at an SS, ST, RC, or >SW? > >Thanks, >Alex >B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> here's an interesting email someone sent me: >> >> >> When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it >> is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra >> network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no >> statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be >> removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my >> driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and >> Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion, >> they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather >> upset. >> >> This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD >> key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it >> in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It >> holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file. >> >> In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified >> enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and >> LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get >> deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account, >> with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the >> CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can >> distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the >> player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY >> servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers. >> >> With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY >> purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone >> else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner >> that caused an incident online. >> >> I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy.

---------------- Skotty Flynn http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

On 26 Aug 2001 12:35:41 -0600, Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Eddie Pettit <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: >>> In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified >>> enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and >>> LPI than I have. LOL. >> >> Poor kids... >> > >As this thread twists, he keeps bringing in new things... If these kids >have better ratings and LPI than you, why do you start by saying they are >old enough and qualified enough? That implies they aren't yet racing >online.

His post did not say he has kids. What he posted was an email he received by someone, as referenced by: >> here's an interesting email someone sent me:---------------- Skotty Flynn http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:56:32 GMT, "Will DeRivera" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hey, > >So you lied...you flat out lied to Papy. So much for that "i'm a strong >christian" part a bit earlier, eh? In those emails you posted, you stated to >them that you are the ONLY one that uses your computer, and now you're >saying you have two kids that race also. So which is it? His post did not say he has kids. What he posted was an email he received by someone, as referenced by: >> here's an interesting email someone sent me:---------------- Skotty Flynn http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

Who ever has seen the replay please post the drive that dodgefan wrecked Thanks [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote:

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>From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) >Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar >Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! >NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > >The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from >racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they >will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. >The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the >only thing worth a crap to play. > >Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 >Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to >what they call "wrecking". > >here's their rules: >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 >Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > >*Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider >reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > >In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue >to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if >all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will >need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT >the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled >drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > >Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing >these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not >incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue >this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is >legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we >will no longer accept reports from that individual. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to >race their game online was not good business practice and bad >morally). >So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY >LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. >Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... >where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and >LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which >that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > >Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the >emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay >from which they banned me from. > >As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS >TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons >#1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps >and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the >field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every >car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. >#2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > >here's what they call me a wrecker from: >As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin >in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me >(since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the >racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove >to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass >me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the >leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them >pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the >same area trying to get out of the way of each other. >So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left >rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him >you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his >car!!! > >Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage >(haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a >few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had >to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and >continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over >again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on >turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when >coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the >wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the >frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with >another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. >Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as >before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was >out to wreck him intentionally. > >With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to >go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to >get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > >Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a >new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking >is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the >best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away >from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought >it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once >in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing >online, for good. > >I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to >the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were >still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They >responded again rudely against that. > >I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of >you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem >showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, >although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > >I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns >me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy >may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > >Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in >this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive >about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a >pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new >computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb >ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel >and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a >new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... >but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > >I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, >purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up >through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar >game just to race online. > >If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the >never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email >me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > >Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? >email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > >thanks for your time! > >BH >Dodgefan!

Dodgefan just nicked the front of the leader and was spun out / wrecked himself, the other car continued unaffected. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "me" wrote... > > Who ever has seen the replay please post the drive that dodgefan > wrecked > > Thanks

You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good rank. Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and then return the box to the store for a refund. Also, see about a lawsuit. David G Fisher "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. >

Geez. Why don't you just stick your tongue down the back of "Papy's" trousers? They fucked up. The guy had never had a complaint against him before. Wait until it happens to you. David G Fisher "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9mbbac$1a8s1$[email hidden]... > Guys, > > I've gotten crashed out by wreckers so often that I am grateful to Papyfor > having started taking action, and their anti-wrecker measures have had a > positive effect on the quality of the races on WON. > > If Dodgefans' moves were just bad judgement, I'm sorry to hear he got > banned, but after reading his mail and watching the excerpt from thereplay > Alex uploaded, I have to say that if this doesn't at least _look_ like > wrecking, then what should wrecking look like. Especially if you consider > that Dodgefan's mishaps always affected the same other driver. > > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked formeasures > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckersbadly, > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasantjob, > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when they'reonly

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> trying to help us. > > I don't think Papy would mind good suggestions on how to improve the > situation, maybe use a 'second chance' type of system of punishments or > temporary bans (2 months on first offence, 6 months on second?). But > starting to muse about legal action when Papy is only trying to help us is > not the way to go. > > Achim > >

Well, I was saying if it was that big a deal with me and I could not go without it, that's what I would do. Don Burnette "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ssci7.1391$[email hidden]... > Don, not everyone has the money to go out and spend another $40 due to a > "mistake". > > I do not know about you, but I do not like just throwing $40 out thewindow.

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> If you do, let me email you my paypal account info :) > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:709i7.116159$[email hidden]... > > Seems to me if it mattered that much for someone to be able to continue > > racing online, they'd just go pick up another copy of the game and learn > > from the experience. > > Certainly, if it happened to me and it was a complete accident, I would > > argue the decision with Papy, but if it held I would just go grab

another

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> > copy of the game if I wanted to continue racing on the Won service. > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:2x7i7.1347$[email hidden]... > > > Well as much as I agree with Papy trying to clean up the racing a

little

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> > > bit, I do think that what they are doing is a bit harsh. > > > > > > 1. I do not think that they should ban someone from one > report/incident. > > > I think that a warning could be given (maybe put all the CD-Keys in a > list > > > that have a warning and when the person logs in the MOTD mentions to > them > > > that they have a warning) and then upon further incidents a ban may be > > > necessary. I imagine that if this was you for a complete accident

and > > you > > > were all of a sudden banned, your view may be different? > > > > > > 2. Why do they need to be banned from total online racing? Why notjust > > ban > > > them from the Papy servers since those are the only ones that Papy is > > > monitoring and to be quite honest, the only servers Papy should haveany

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> > say > > > about. > > > > > > 3. Kinda leads from #2. I would not be surprised if Papy found > > themselves > > > in legal action for this. Can you honestly sell someone a game like > this > > > and then ban them from using it? I am not going to get into the EULA > > > because according to that, you can not eat toast while playing N4. > > > > > > > > > "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:rp6i7.356447$[email hidden]... > > > > Unfortuantely thats what I got out of it. I've probably even done it > > > myself > > > > unintentionally. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Grandy > > > > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > > > > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > In article <fYOh7.355782$[email hidden]>, "Mike > > Grandy" > > > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > > > > >If you think about it, theres a damaged car high coming off turn 2 > and > > > the > > > > >leaders are coming up from behind. The lap car comes down across

the > > > track > > > > >in front of the leaders and wrecks them. What does that look liketo

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> > you? > > > > > > > > That's what I was thinking. From the description, it SOUNDS > deliberate. > > > > Viewing the replay, it would probably LOOK deliberate, too. Not > saying > > it > > > > was, > > > > but I think people can see why the victim would think so. > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > -- > > > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then > beats > > > you > > > > with experience... > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Skotty Flynn <[email hidden]> wrote: > His post did not say he has kids. What he posted was an email he > received by someone, as referenced by: >>> here's an interesting email someone sent me: > ---------------- > Skotty Flynn > http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com Ah, my mistake. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays, starting at ~10:15 PM Eastern for ~1.5 hours

Sorry, I seriously meant to put a smiley face or something to indicate that my "tongue" comment was to be taken lightly. It's a line from a very funny and crude British comedy (The Young Ones). David G Fisher "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:g3gi7.141496$[email hidden]...

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> Geez. Why don't you just stick your tongue down the back of "Papy's" > trousers? They fucked up. The guy had never had a complaint against him > before. > > Wait until it happens to you. > > David G Fisher > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9mbbac$1a8s1$[email hidden]... > > Guys, > > > > I've gotten crashed out by wreckers so often that I am grateful to Papy > for > > having started taking action, and their anti-wrecker measures have had a > > positive effect on the quality of the races on WON. > > > > If Dodgefans' moves were just bad judgement, I'm sorry to hear he got > > banned, but after reading his mail and watching the excerpt from the > replay > > Alex uploaded, I have to say that if this doesn't at least _look_ like > > wrecking, then what should wrecking look like. Especially if you

consider

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> > that Dodgefan's mishaps always affected the same other driver. > > > > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for > measures > > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers > badly, > > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasant > job, > > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when they're > only > > trying to help us. > > > > I don't think Papy would mind good suggestions on how to improve the > > situation, maybe use a 'second chance' type of system of punishments or > > temporary bans (2 months on first offence, 6 months on second?). But > > starting to muse about legal action when Papy is only trying to help us

is > > not the way to go. > > > > Achim > > > > >

<snip> > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked formeasures > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckersbadly, > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasantjob, > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when they'reonly > trying to help us.<snip> Well said! Of course, I would have been less than happy if I was banned after having a communication failure with other drivers. But I would prefer risking a ban rather than to be taken out at almost every race I enter by drivers whoose only reason for being on track is to take out other drivers. Papy isn't banning people involved in race incidents. They aren't even banning those that takes out half the field with jump starts and apron passes. They are only trying to get rid of the intentional wrecker. Surely, noone would want Papy *not* to take actions against intentional wreckers? Jon Andersen

I do think that particular incident was intentional, but it seems a bit much for a first offense. I could undertstand maybe the 2nd or 3rd offense, but first time caught is a bit too hard assed for a game. While wreckers annoy me, or people just being REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY stupid annoys me too, I do think that Papy's stance is a bit too tough.Today while I was racing I encountered a wrecker at Bristol on Papy's server (demo derby, 30 cars in it) and was going to save the replay, but someone was flaming me because I rear ended him 10 laps from the end and I had to explain to him I had just pitted, had fresh tires, and didn't realize how much faster I was, everything went ok with him then, but then the server booted everyone off for the start of the next race. Though, I have to admit, trying to dodge all of the wrecks and go under cars the warped high in the air was kinda fun, except when i got hit, lol. At the end, I passed a guy for position, and then on the last corner of the race he rear ended me and I spun. I was sitting backwards on the straight really close to the finish line, so I shifted into reverse and went across the finish in the reverse. I saw a rally driver do that at the end of a stage when he spun, so I thought I'd try it too, heh. Anyway, I still don't like the idea how he came to our newsgroup just to get people all excited so he could get the ban appealed. He never cared about R.A.S. until he was in deep sh*t and that kinda bothered me. It's like the guy who goes broke and then when in dept, asks his in-laws he never spends time with for money :) Also, even though I still don't agree with his decision making, I do think he has learned his lesson and should be allowed to race again. He knows better to screw his ranking or take out the leader when banning is a good possibility. :) Thanks, Alex B. Hilton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > only thing worth a crap to play. > > Anyways, I was pleading my case on the papy webpage Nascar 4 > Forum...and they banned me from there calmly stating the facts as to > what they call "wrecking". > > here's their rules: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Guidelines For Reporting NASCAR� Racing 4 > Multiplayer Intentional Wrecking* > > *Please read this entire document thoroughly before you consider > reporting an incident of intentional wrecking. > > In an effort to give the NASCAR� Racing 4 multiplayer user an avenue > to report incidents of intentional wrecking, we will take reports if > all guidelines are met that are outlined in this document. You will > need to make sure that your report is of intentional wrecking and NOT > the result of incidents related to accidents caused by warp, unskilled > drivers, or plain old "racing incidents". > > Because we only have a small amount of time to devote to reviewing > these reports, if we end up getting flooded with reports that are not > incidents of intentional wrecking, we will be forced to discontinue > this line of communication. So, please make sure that your report is > legitimate. If it is determined that a report is not legitimate, we > will no longer accept reports from that individual. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Well makes sense to me (even though I ALWAYS thought banning people to > race their game online was not good business practice and bad > morally). > So I emailed papy to ask why I was banned since I have NEVER IN MY > LIFE in a multiplayer game intentionally gone after to wreck someone. > Ya see, in this game they have built in a nice Ratings feature... > where the better driver you are.. you have a higher ranking 0-10 and > LPI (laps per incident). My ratings were VERY high for both... which > that should have triggered them into knowing I am not a wrecker. > > Anyways, they responded, very rudely I might add (i still have the > emails)... and at least they were kind enough to send me the replay > from which they banned me from. > > As I go home and watch the replay (which I still have if ANYONE WANTS > TO VIEW IT)... I am TOTALLY AMAZED for 2 reasons > #1 - I have a majorly damaged car trying to just complete some laps > and in the replay it shows me racing about 5 or 6 laps... and the > field is spread out and goes by me about 2 different times... every > car that passes me I give them TONS of room to pass making no contact. > #2 - (here's the good part) - THERE WASN'T EVEN A WRECK!!!!!!! > > here's what they call me a wrecker from: > As I come off of turn 2 (at Lowe's Speedway) I drift up high... lookin > in my rear view mirrow I see the leaders coming fast up behind me > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... what happen was either my reaction time was too slow and/or the > leaders were flying cause unfortunately as I was going low to let them > pass, the leader dives low to dodge me... basically we end up in the > same area trying to get out of the way of each other. > So what happens... well, I dive down and his car hits mine in the left > rear which spins me out into the inside wall... what happened to him > you ask.. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he kept racing without any damage to his > car!!! > > Ok so at this point... I have a damaged race car with more damage > (haha)... as people continue to drop out of the race and with only a > few laps left (and since the rating system is setup like it is) I had > to complete a few more laps to help my score. So I kept going... and > continue to let the cars pass me with tons of room over and over > again. Towards the end of the replay... I have to hit the apron on > turn 4 dodging a wrecked car stopped in the racing groove... when > coming off of the apron... i shoot up high obviously, and brush the > wall coming off of 4, which in return bouces me off a lil which the > frontstretch at lowes is fairly narrow and makes a close call with > another car...but yet again NO CONTACT IS MADE and no wreck occured. > Ironically this car that I came close to again was the same car as > before (which they claim I wrecked) so from that they ASSUMED I was > out to wreck him intentionally. > > With my ratings and laps per incident so high, I would be an idiot to > go wrecking people screwing up my numbers that I had worked so hard to > get... but they don't see it that way I guess. > > Now, the ONLY WAY I can get back to race online is to go out and buy a > new game which is totally ridiculous in my opinion. See, my thinking > is NO ONE should be banned from using a part of the game that is the > best part... they design a rating system to keep the good drivers away > from the wreckers... only problem is it doesn't work as they thought > it would... so instead of fixing it again (they already redid it once > in the first patch), they start banning people totally from racing > online, for good. > > I suggested just simply resetting those "so-called" wreckers back to > the rating of 0 and have them start all over again, and if they were > still a good driver, they woud build their rating back up. They > responded again rudely against that. > > I have all the emails they have sent along with the replay if any of > you with Nascar 4 is interested in viewing it. I have no problem > showing anyone, because simply I am not a wrecker and in the replay, > although there being close calls, there was NO WRECK. > > I am just baffled by all of this... and because of this, it concerns > me that others online may become banned eventually for something papy > may see as an "intentional wreck" but is simply not the case. > > Wanta hear something else bad... well I am (or should I say was) in > this racing league... and was getting very serious and competitive > about it... so since the Nascar 4 games eats up a system (i had a > pentium 3 500 w/ 128mb ram and 20gb hard drive) I decided to buy a new > computer now instead of waiting on down the road(AMD 1.4ghz, 256mb > ram, 64mb geforce 2 video card) and a new Nascar Pro 2 racing wheel > and pedals from thrustmaster. Bascially I would not have had to buy a > new computer if I wasn't into racing online in the league so much... > but now that I am banned... well you get what I'm saying. :( > > I have been a MAJOR Papy fan since the Nascar Racing 1 days, > purchasing every nascar racing game and expansion pack all the way up > through Nascar 4. Now, I might have to go for an EA Sports Nascar > game just to race online. > > If ANYONE would like to see the replay they sent me of the "wreck the > never happened" and/or the emails from Papy's manager... please email > me at [email hidden] and I would be happy to send them to you. :) > > Anyone wanta comment on this...or banning in general? > email papy's manager at [email hidden] > > > thanks for your time! > > BH > Dodgefan!

GUYS.... READ THE FREAKIN POST... IT SAYS "HERE's AN NICE EMAIL I GOT FROM SOMEONE" no i didn't lie... it was an email I copied from someone else... do you speak english? lol Skotty Flynn <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:56:32 GMT, "Will DeRivera" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Hey, > > > >So you lied...you flat out lied to Papy. So much for that "i'm a strong > >christian" part a bit earlier, eh? In those emails you posted, you stated to > >them that you are the ONLY one that uses your computer, and now you're > >saying you have two kids that race also. So which is it? > > His post did not say he has kids. What he posted was an email he > received by someone, as referenced by: > >> here's an interesting email someone sent me: > ---------------- > Skotty Flynn > http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

Yeah, I got a little worried when you told him to lick their asses :) Thanks, Alex David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JGgi7.141610$[email hidden]... > Sorry, I seriously meant to put a smiley face or something to indicatethat

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> my "tongue" comment was to be taken lightly. It's a line from a very funny > and crude British comedy (The Young Ones). > > David G Fisher > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:g3gi7.141496$[email hidden]... > > Geez. Why don't you just stick your tongue down the back of "Papy's" > > trousers? They fucked up. The guy had never had a complaint against him > > before. > > > > Wait until it happens to you. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9mbbac$1a8s1$[email hidden]... > > > Guys, > > > > > > I've gotten crashed out by wreckers so often that I am grateful to

Papy > > for > > > having started taking action, and their anti-wrecker measures have hada

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> > > positive effect on the quality of the races on WON. > > > > > > If Dodgefans' moves were just bad judgement, I'm sorry to hear he got > > > banned, but after reading his mail and watching the excerpt from the > > replay > > > Alex uploaded, I have to say that if this doesn't at least _look_ like > > > wrecking, then what should wrecking look like. Especially if you > consider > > > that Dodgefan's mishaps always affected the same other driver. > > > > > > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > > > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for > > measures > > > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers > > badly, > > > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasant > > job, > > > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when

they're > > only > > > trying to help us. > > > > > > I don't think Papy would mind good suggestions on how to improve the > > > situation, maybe use a 'second chance' type of system of punishmentsor > > > temporary bans (2 months on first offence, 6 months on second?). But > > > starting to muse about legal action when Papy is only trying to helpus

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> is > > > not the way to go. > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > >

Always blame the media. :-) David G Fisher "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:I_gi7.290$[email hidden]...

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> Yeah, I got a little worried when you told him to lick their asses :) > > Thanks, > Alex > David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:JGgi7.141610$[email hidden]... > > Sorry, I seriously meant to put a smiley face or something to indicate > that > > my "tongue" comment was to be taken lightly. It's a line from a very

funny

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> > and crude British comedy (The Young Ones). > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:g3gi7.141496$[email hidden]... > > > Geez. Why don't you just stick your tongue down the back of "Papy's" > > > trousers? They fucked up. The guy had never had a complaint against

him

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> > > before. > > > > > > Wait until it happens to you. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9mbbac$1a8s1$[email hidden]... > > > > Guys, > > > > > > > > I've gotten crashed out by wreckers so often that I am grateful to > Papy > > > for > > > > having started taking action, and their anti-wrecker measures have

had > a > > > > positive effect on the quality of the races on WON. > > > > > > > > If Dodgefans' moves were just bad judgement, I'm sorry to hear hegot > > > > banned, but after reading his mail and watching the excerpt from the > > > replay > > > > Alex uploaded, I have to say that if this doesn't at least _look_like

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> > > > wrecking, then what should wrecking look like. Especially if you > > consider > > > > that Dodgefan's mishaps always affected the same other driver. > > > > > > > > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > > > > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for > > > measures > > > > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers > > > badly, > > > > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an

unpleasant

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> > > job, > > > > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when > they're > > > only > > > > trying to help us. > > > > > > > > I don't think Papy would mind good suggestions on how to improve the > > > > situation, maybe use a 'second chance' type of system of punishments > or > > > > temporary bans (2 months on first offence, 6 months on second?). But > > > > starting to muse about legal action when Papy is only trying to help > us > > is > > > > not the way to go. > > > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

ALex you are freakin retarded... you are lying now... I NEVER SAID I HAD TWO KIDS!!!! I POSTED AN EMAIL SOMEONE ELSE SENT ME... CAN YOU READ OR DO THEY NOT TEACH 14 YEAR OLDS THAT MUCH YET??? You cut the replay down NOT SHOWING all of the other laps I completed letting cars pass me with tons of room. Seriously guys... with anyone that has been wrecked by a real wrecker... don't they usually SIT on the track... or RIDE LOW then MOVE UP into the wall to hit the cars? I was moving out of the line to the freakin apron... so if I would have stayed in the racing line maybe I would have collected other cars behind him... then I would have prob. been banned too? What was I suppost to do? I couldn't exit until my car comes to a complete stop anyways... Papy's ranking system encourages you to keep racing for points... I did have a 7 rating on ss... 5 on SW I've never once posted on here... because there was never a need to plain a simple. They banned me from the Nascar 4 Forum... so I wanted to at least warn other drivers out there how EASY it is to become banned...and to stay away from papy servers. so first of all... quit saying things about me that aren't true ok... I would appreciate it. I would be glad to race you and any others... anytime you would like to prove how good of a driver I am. BH "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<E0di7.2886$[email hidden]>...

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> Andre, my fellow league racer :) there are also other factors that come in > to play. First, he says he has A LOT of experience racing online and has > been racing Papyrus's series since NASCAR 1, therefore he should know to > hold his line after all these years, 2. he just added he swerved so sharply > because of a blown tired, well if your tire is blown, why did he keep going > around the track a few laps instead of pitting? (I have the 2.62mb replay > but just cut it down smaller so you can just see the wreck) 3. He's never > once posted here EVER (check the archives) so how can we really trust him? > 4. He claims he's in a league but fails to tell us the URL of it. 5. He > claims he has 2 kids that have better ranks than he has, but he's 23 and > claims to have a 7 rating at SS, ST, SW, or RC (didn't specify) 5. Watch the > replay in slow motion, you'll notice contact isn't made until his front > wheels are over the dotted line, I don't think you swerve sharply all the > way down to the apron to let the leaders pass. > > Your pretty much saying what I said. I think Papy's rule is a bit strict, > but I did mention he could have just been frustrated and had a dark moment, > but to me it looked really intentional. I tried swerving like he did on the > same track offline and it's extremely hard to get back on track after > swerving that hard. > > Thanks, > Alex > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:42:47 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Okay, I got the replay from B. Hilton, and it looked REALLY bad. Ok, > here's > > >what really happens. > <snip> > > >I still don't know if he's a hardcore wrecker or a good driver who just > had > > >a dark, frustrated moment, and took someone out. But still, there was no > > >doubt in my mind that it was intentional. > > > > Alex.. this banning and blaming stuff is quite dangerous. It's > > extremely hard to tell if a crash was intentional even if you have the > > replay. > > I did not watch the replay, this topic is interesting enough to keep > > it general, I don't want to start an endless discussion about this > > particulair replay. > > > > Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. > > With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, > > driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming > > him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. > > > > Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing > > an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. > > One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and > > taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it > > even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for > > this if it happens once. > > Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. > > > > A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the > > warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend > > himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid > > accident a ban would be justified. > > > > Andre > > > > >Thanks, > > >Alex > >

Well said Andre... not right at all. I went out and bought Nascar Heat today... the AI is 100 times better than N4... believe it or not.. it runs MUCH smoother..and the cars even look better. Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:31:32 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Andre, my fellow league racer :) > Heya :) > > >there are also other factors that come in > >to play. First, he says he has A LOT of experience racing online and has > <snip> > > Point made, his story seems quite dubious, but look at what is > happening now. One guy posts his comments about his ban here and > allready the thread contains more than 150 posts discussing if the ban > was justified. I'm affraid what with all this banning stuff RAS will > turn into LA Law, with people acting as Perry Mason or Judge Dredd > here.. > > I am not talking about this single case here, it's about the general > principle.. Papy keeping an eye on the online community is good, Papy > banning people from playing a game, which they paid good money for, > after a dubious accident is bad. > > I play GPL now for 3 years, I play it a lot online and still once in a > while I'm the cause of an unfortunate accident. I wouldn't feel really > easy if there was a chance someone would complain and I would > immediately get a total ban.. > > Andre

I did say it was my fault... delayed reaction on my part to see the lead pack coming... and so I moved quickly out of their way... which ended up both of us going to the same place. Bad race for me... my fault.. I was stupid yes... BUT IT WAS NOT INTENTIONAL nor am I a wrecker. [email hidden] (Race1530) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> For months now, all I have read about is how bad online racing has become due > to "wreckers". > Papy responds with an Iron Fist, trying to clean up their servers and right > away there's a call to arms (or lawyers) sympathizing with a gentleman that we > (or maybe I should say "I") know nothing about. > This thread is so long I forget, but didn't he say both incidences were with > the leader? Coincidence? Who knows. But it looks bad. > And if you can't control your car (sliding up the turn) or hold your line, then > you should probably park it. > If you are going pitifully slow, again, park it. > If your more concerned with picking up a few measly points then with the > quality of the race for EVERYONE, then as far as I'm concerned, you get whats > coming to you. > And as far as internet play is concerned, you can still race. You just can't > race on Sierra. > How about this for a refreshing idea. > Take responsibiltiy for yourself. Quit trying to blame everyone and their > brother or whining about lawyers and suing. I am sick of it. > We brought up a valid point to Papy and they responded. Good for them. > > Sorry for the vitriol, but it just ticks me off. > > Michael Loos > Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio! > Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific > Find your local affiliate at > www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

No one asked, but my 2cents: Generally speaking, why ban at all? Couldn't the user's ID just be marked or something for all to see? Maybe have an option for the host to prevent anyone who has been "marked" from joining the race. "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Alex.. this banning and blaming stuff is quite dangerous. It's > extremely hard to tell if a crash was intentional even if you have the > replay. > I did not watch the replay, this topic is interesting enough to keep > it general, I don't want to start an endless discussion about this > particulair replay. > > Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. > With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, > driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming > him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. > > Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing > an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. > One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and > taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it > even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for > this if it happens once. > Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. > > A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the > warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend > himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid > accident a ban would be justified. > > Andre > > >Thanks, > >Alex >

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Always blame the media. :-) This *is* the media. Seriously! -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>Probably against the death penalty too, but that's another thread... >Probably be equal in size though... LOL..... I think this thread (Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS) will set a record. -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

Gary, You know this is one hell of an idea! The Scarlet letter thingy! :) But as you see when you have this kind of situation you have a 100 or more different "subjective opinions". As I said before it was a tuff call and it wasnt mine to make.. Thank God!! :) "Gary Wampler" wrote: | No one asked, but my 2cents: | Generally speaking, why ban at all? Couldn't the user's ID just be marked | or something for all to see? Maybe have an option for the host to prevent | anyone who has been "marked" from joining the race. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Thats a fact REDLINE426...lol :) "REDLINE426" wrote:

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| LOL..... | | I think this thread (Nascar Racing 4 (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING | ONLINE!!!! - READ THIS) will set a record. | | | -- | R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Play HEAT all you want, then... In my view N4 is 100x better than heat. HEAT was great until N4 came out, then I gave away my HEAT game. Something about it, I can't quite put my finger on, just isn't as good as N4. The whole experience with N4 is much better. -- Sean Higgins Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com Redline BGN Division http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well said Andre... not right at all. > > I went out and bought Nascar Heat today... the AI is 100 times better > than N4... believe it or not.. it runs MUCH smoother..and the cars > even look better. > > > > > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:31:32 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Andre, my fellow league racer :) > > Heya :) > > > > >there are also other factors that come in > > >to play. First, he says he has A LOT of experience racing online and has > > <snip> > > > > Point made, his story seems quite dubious, but look at what is > > happening now. One guy posts his comments about his ban here and > > allready the thread contains more than 150 posts discussing if the ban > > was justified. I'm affraid what with all this banning stuff RAS will > > turn into LA Law, with people acting as Perry Mason or Judge Dredd > > here.. > > > > I am not talking about this single case here, it's about the general > > principle.. Papy keeping an eye on the online community is good, Papy > > banning people from playing a game, which they paid good money for, > > after a dubious accident is bad. > > > > I play GPL now for 3 years, I play it a lot online and still once in a > > while I'm the cause of an unfortunate accident. I wouldn't feel really > > easy if there was a chance someone would complain and I would > > immediately get a total ban.. > > > > Andre

I think that's a fantastic idea Gary!!!!!! Keep the wreckers from saying they can't race MP anymore, and make it so they can't enter SERIOUS racer's races. -- Sean Higgins Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com Redline BGN Division http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ "Gary Wampler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Bvhi7.419$[email hidden]... > No one asked, but my 2cents: > Generally speaking, why ban at all? Couldn't the user's ID just be marked > or something for all to see? Maybe have an option for the host to prevent > anyone who has been "marked" from joining the race. > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Alex.. this banning and blaming stuff is quite dangerous. It's > > extremely hard to tell if a crash was intentional even if you have the > > replay. > > I did not watch the replay, this topic is interesting enough to keep > > it general, I don't want to start an endless discussion about this > > particulair replay. > > > > Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. > > With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, > > driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming > > him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. > > > > Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing > > an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. > > One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and > > taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it > > even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for > > this if it happens once. > > Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. > > > > A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the > > warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend > > himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid > > accident a ban would be justified. > > > > Andre > > > > >Thanks, > > >Alex > > > >

Hey, So, you're going to deny writing this now? Do i have to copy the whole post with your sequence of emails, or will this do? -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Hilton [mailto:[email hidden]] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:47 PM To: Online Mod Subject: RE: Unbanning? NO ONE uses my computer other than me... This is unbelieveable!!! -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > GUYS.... READ THE FREAKIN POST... IT SAYS > > "HERE's AN NICE EMAIL I GOT FROM SOMEONE" > > no i didn't lie... it was an email I copied from someone else... do > you speak english? lol > > > Skotty Flynn <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:56:32 GMT, "Will DeRivera" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Hey, > > > > > >So you lied...you flat out lied to Papy. So much for that "i'm a strong > > >christian" part a bit earlier, eh? In those emails you posted, you stated to > > >them that you are the ONLY one that uses your computer, and now you're > > >saying you have two kids that race also. So which is it? > > > > His post did not say he has kids. What he posted was an email he > > received by someone, as referenced by: > > >> here's an interesting email someone sent me: > > ---------------- > > Skotty Flynn > > http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com >

My bad then, sorry about that. -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > GUYS.... READ THE FREAKIN POST... IT SAYS > > "HERE's AN NICE EMAIL I GOT FROM SOMEONE" > > no i didn't lie... it was an email I copied from someone else... do > you speak english? lol > > > Skotty Flynn <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:56:32 GMT, "Will DeRivera" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Hey, > > > > > >So you lied...you flat out lied to Papy. So much for that "i'm a strong > > >christian" part a bit earlier, eh? In those emails you posted, you stated to > > >them that you are the ONLY one that uses your computer, and now you're > > >saying you have two kids that race also. So which is it? > > > > His post did not say he has kids. What he posted was an email he > > received by someone, as referenced by: > > >> here's an interesting email someone sent me: > > ---------------- > > Skotty Flynn > > http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com >

On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 03:32:54 GMT, "Will DeRivera" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hey, > >So, you're going to deny writing this now? Do i have to copy the whole post >with your sequence of emails, or will this do? Will, I think you are confused. The post that B.Hilton made about kids using his computer was sent to him by someone else. In other words, it has nothing to do with B.Hilton's situation. The post is below. Note the first line.

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>here's an interesting email someone sent me: > > >When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it >is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra >network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no >statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be >removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my >driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and >Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion, >they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather >upset. > >This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD >key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it >in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It >holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file. > >In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified >enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and >LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get >deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account, >with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the >CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can >distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the >player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY >servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers. > >With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY >purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone >else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner >that caused an incident online. > >I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy.

---------------- Skotty Flynn http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Chuck) writes: >I watched the replay and I see no conclusive evidence of intent, >except to get out of the way. >And why wasn't the striking car holding his line, as the rules state? The leader should have held his line? There's a car going much slower than he is, RIGHT in his path. He should hold his line and plow into the back of the slower car?!? No - he tried to avoid that car. It just so happens the slower car matched his move. Don't you try to avoid cars that are in your path? If you don't, *I* sure as hell don't want to race with you... Eldred Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <cSbi7.26969$[email hidden]>, "JM" <[email hidden]> writes: >In the case of NASCAR4 I have successfully joined an online race without >going through sierra.com (ie direct connexion) that's as much as I'm >"entitled" to in terms of functionality offered on the box cover. the >sierra.com is an added bonus, except when everyone who makes a mistake is >permanently banned, and nobody can race there anymore, of course. That's actually what I see happening, to a certain extent. Say there's a league with 20 drivers. One gets banned from WON because of an accident in a weekend pickup race. Now he can't run in league races, because the server is likely on WON. They probably wouldn't bypass WON just for the one driver. What about if 7 or 8 get banned? What happens then? Just some more questions to throw out there... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <BEai7.27411$[email hidden]>, "Biz" <[email hidden]> writes: >I've yet to see one league where "sry" was banned because of a no-chat rule, >Thats ridiculous. Here's one - CORS - Classic Online Racing Series http://members.home.net/corsleague2/ Granted, it's a GPL league, but it proves my point. This from the rules: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chatting. Unrestricted chatting is allowed during free practice, but only minimal chatting is allowed during qualifying. "Pit out" messages are no substitute for safety around the pit area, and are not allowed. Any form of chatting is prohibited on the starting grid, during the race, and until all cars have passed the chequered flag, so as not to distract other drivers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You're still free to say it's ridiculous. I was just saying they EXIST... Don't kid yourself into thinking they don't. Check out the rest of their rules. You might be surprised how strict some leagues are... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

sry and PO should be mandatory, IMO. These guys are loony.....but I have yet to see it in a Nascar racing league, N3 or N4, in fact most good leagues require Pit exit/entrance messages..... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <BEai7.27411$[email hidden]>, "Biz" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I've yet to see one league where "sry" was banned because of a no-chat rule, > >Thats ridiculous. > > Here's one - > CORS - Classic Online Racing Series > http://members.home.net/corsleague2/ > Granted, it's a GPL league, but it proves my point. This from the rules: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Chatting. > Unrestricted chatting is allowed during free practice, but only minimal > chatting is allowed during qualifying. > "Pit out" messages are no substitute for safety around the pit area, and are > not allowed. > Any form of chatting is prohibited on the starting grid, during the race, and > until all cars have passed the chequered flag, so as not to distract other > drivers. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > You're still free to say it's ridiculous. I was just saying they EXIST... > Don't kid yourself into thinking they don't. Check out the rest of their > rules. You might be surprised how strict some leagues are... > > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Kirk House" <[email hidden]> writes: > If you have consistently bad judgment and take out half the field every time > you race, even if it is unintentional, you should be banned IMHO. why can't they just delegate those people to lower-ranked races? I can't for the life of me understand why _anyone_ should be banned from _everything_. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 myk, trygg og god.

"Darrin Stevens" <[email hidden]> writes: > Why not park it when your severely damaged? in a real race, when your car is damaged to the point that you're a danger to yourself or others, you're black-flagged. this can't possibly be very hard to implement. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 DE RECTIS NON TOLERANDUM EST

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> > I play GPL now for 3 years, I play it a lot online and still once in a > while I'm the cause of an unfortunate accident. I wouldn't feel really > easy if there was a chance someone would complain and I would > immediately get a total ban.. > > Andre >

I wouldnt worry Andre, its not that easy to get someone banned. In fact i would go as far as to say that the Papy servers have far fewer intentional wreckers than thay had before the Reports of Intentional Wrecking (find them now on non-papy un-passworded servers !! ), some are still there on the papy servers and the skilled wreckers are much more subtle/restrained in thier craft. The biggest problem i find with Papy servers is the low skill settings on so many of thier servers, which forces higher rated drivers to mix with the lower rated drivers, and we all know how hard it can be to pass someone safely when they dont yet have the skill to hold any line. If you drive on Papy servers with the same respect for fellow racers that you show on vroc then have no worrys about being banned.

"Thom j." <[email hidden]> writes: > Common rule is: "all lappers" Try to always stay high & hold your line. > It is basic and typed in chat in every race I go in.. It isnt that unknown! > I don't know this situation but the above is what all should do or try to > do in a online Nascar 4 race... I believe the root of the problem is that people are _way_ too conserned with what's going on behind them. one of the first things I learned when reacing in real life (bikes, but still) was "never look back". not only is it none of your business, but you'll look insecure to the riders behind you, and basically everyone ends up freaking out, if only a little bit. :) -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 silence is FOO!

Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> writes: > mustang wrote: > > Let's start a new protected-class: Bad drivers! > > Problem is, they're not a minority out there! <g> the only reason that would be a problem, is if you ignore it. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "Det er nok ingen ovn, men fartsm�leren v�r."

I would assume they ban the key only. Quite a few people's got a dynamic IP assigned when they connect to the net so I guess that would be pretty pointless. -- Thomas M�rlund - Dick Dale forever! - "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Kobi7.139979$[email hidden]... > A quick question: Since it appears this thread will be growing > for awhile, When you're *banned* do they pull your CD-Key > only? Or do they they get your IP address too? > -Thom_j. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001 > >

EldredP wrote:

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> > That's actually what I see happening, to a certain extent. Say there's a > league with 20 drivers. One gets banned from WON because of an accident in a > weekend pickup race. Now he can't run in league races, because the server is > likely on WON. They probably wouldn't bypass WON just for the one driver. > What about if 7 or 8 get banned? What happens then? Just some more questions > to throw out there...

If 7 or 8 get banned, then that's probably a league you don't want to be in... ;)

In article <kO6i7.139190$[email hidden]>, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Now you just contradicted what you told me as bullshit & go back >to the stay high & hold line! You are flip-flopping now or your just >having a bad PMS day!! :)~ >| You don't seem to understand something here. If you had held your line >high, driving a straight line and one of the leaders had plowed into you, then >shame on them. It would have been their own damn fault. ><snipped for example>

No I didn't. If you cut across the track and take out the leaders because they can't figure out where you are going or what the hell you're doing then you should be taken behind the haulers and beaten soundly about the ears. But if you are driving a straight, consistent line, making no unexpected lane changes as the leaders come up on you, and you get drilled from behind by one of them, it's their own damn fault. There is no contridiction here whatsoever. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>Right theres the problem, that would get rid of most of the intentional = >wreckers. Not for a few bucks a year though. I would be perfectly content paying the $13.00 a month I used to pay TEN. Had a hell of a lot more than $13.00 worth of fun each month. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>Ya know.. I don't remember wreckers being such a problem in N3... >maybe this rating system is what has caused it all. Wrong. The problem is that anyone with a modem and the desire to drive can join the races. That includes the morons that get their online training in the Quake arenas. It has nothing to do with the ratings system. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>take him out... then why wouldn't I have??? lol.. I mean really... if >I am a wrecker I wouldn't go after just one guy... and I certainly >wouldn't give up and not "take him out" like a wrecker is suppost to >do right? That's why you went after him a second time. Only this time he was watching you and halfway knew what to expect. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>And why wasn't the striking car holding his line, as the rules state? Because the striking car was trying avoid hitting an idiot crossing the track right in front of him. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>Agree, all the more since us European Historic GP drivers aren't known >quantities in Nascar and therefore our actions might be interpreted as >intentional wrecking, whereas as a "known good" racer might get away with >the same. I should think that racing is pretty much racing anywhere, whether it be in Europe or the US. Racing etiquette will translate very nicely from F1 to IRL to NASCAR to motorcycles to Craftsman Trucks. Well, okay. Maybe not to the trucks. ;o) Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>I play GPL now for 3 years, I play it a lot online and still once in a >while I'm the cause of an unfortunate accident. I wouldn't feel really >easy if there was a chance someone would complain and I would >immediately get a total ban.. Yes Andre but, when was the last time you were the unfortunate cause of the accident and the replay could be used against you to make a case that you had done it intentionally? Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

Dave Casey wrote: > > >Right theres the problem, that would get rid of most of the intentional = > >wreckers. Not for a few bucks a year though. > > I would be perfectly content paying the $13.00 a month I used to pay TEN. Had > a hell of a lot more than $13.00 worth of fun each month. But we have so many more options now....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

>Well said Andre... not right at all. > >I went out and bought Nascar Heat today... the AI is 100 times better >than N4... believe it or not.. it runs MUCH smoother..and the cars >even look better. Now this answers a ton of questions for me. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>I think that's a fantastic idea Gary!!!!!! > >Keep the wreckers from saying they can't race MP anymore, and make it so >they can't enter SERIOUS racer's races. That's one thing I miss about TEN. The ol' Mute option. Not only shut them up, it shut them out too. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

Well you're patially correct.... other than I'm not an intentional wrecker. We still got guys parking on the tracks and going backwards wrecking the whole field and I make a mistake and make contact (without even wrecking the guy i might add) and they ban me? Fair?... you're day MAY be soon too... then we'll see how you take it bh "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<1Vgi7.2886$[email hidden]>...

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> <snip> > > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for > measures > > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers > badly, > > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasant > job, > > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when they're > only > > trying to help us. > <snip> > > Well said! > > Of course, I would have been less than happy if I was banned after having a > communication failure with other drivers. But I would prefer risking a ban > rather than to be taken out at almost every race I enter by drivers whoose > only reason for being on track is to take out other drivers. > > Papy isn't banning people involved in race incidents. They aren't even > banning those that takes out half the field with jump starts and apron > passes. They are only trying to get rid of the intentional wrecker. > > Surely, noone would want Papy *not* to take actions against intentional > wreckers? > > Jon Andersen

:) yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been emailing papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involved in a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you in and you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting to take out the whole field FOR FUN. good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the patch is taking so long? LOL rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find a way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>...

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> You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good rank. > > Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and then return > the box to the store for a refund. > > Also, see about a lawsuit. > > David G Fisher > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > only thing worth a crap to play. > >

Ya know I have said that all along... also... they could give just ban from the papy servers they could ban you for a week (on month at a time) with a warning issued first they could fix the freakin rating system to work like it was designed to keep wreckers out. They have a field for Incidents Caused... if it was calculated right... it would keep the wreckers away from the real drivers they could simply reset their individual ratings back to zero and make them start all over again.. of course they don't list to our ideas guys... they make too much sense BH "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Gbji7.8553$[email hidden]>...

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> I think that's a fantastic idea Gary!!!!!! > > Keep the wreckers from saying they can't race MP anymore, and make it so > they can't enter SERIOUS racer's races. > -- > > Sean Higgins > > Redline Racing League > www.rrlnrs.com > > Redline BGN Division > http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ > "Gary Wampler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Bvhi7.419$[email hidden]... > > No one asked, but my 2cents: > > Generally speaking, why ban at all? Couldn't the user's ID just be marked > > or something for all to see? Maybe have an option for the host to prevent > > anyone who has been "marked" from joining the race. > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Alex.. this banning and blaming stuff is quite dangerous. It's > > > extremely hard to tell if a crash was intentional even if you have the > > > replay. > > > I did not watch the replay, this topic is interesting enough to keep > > > it general, I don't want to start an endless discussion about this > > > particulair replay. > > > > > > Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. > > > With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, > > > driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming > > > him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. > > > > > > Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing > > > an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. > > > One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and > > > taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it > > > even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for > > > this if it happens once. > > > Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. > > > > > > A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the > > > warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend > > > himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid > > > accident a ban would be justified. > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >Alex > > > > > > >

Gunnar, awhile back in N4 online [& I can't remember the server?] a server had a great setup... If you crashed and were damaged you were instantly transported to the pits & then you *Had* to wait for all the "tow-time" before the pitting would proceed! If the car was too bad, you were done! I wonder what happened to that option? imho it worked great & then this wrecker issue was almost null! :) "Gunnar Horrigmo" wrote:

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| in a real race, when your car is damaged to the point that you're a | danger to yourself or others, you're black-flagged. this can't | possibly be very hard to implement. | -- | Gunnar | "Darrin Stevens" writes: | > Why not park it when your severely damaged?

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I caught that....apologized two minutes later. My bad. -- In memory of DE, - Will - M1MS - http://mach1.simhq.com "Skotty Flynn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 03:32:54 GMT, "Will DeRivera" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Hey, > > > >So, you're going to deny writing this now? Do i have to copy the whole post > >with your sequence of emails, or will this do? > > > Will, I think you are confused. > The post that B.Hilton made about kids using his computer was sent to > him by someone else. In other words, it has nothing to do with > B.Hilton's situation. > The post is below. Note the first line. > > > >here's an interesting email someone sent me: > > > > > >When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it > >is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra > >network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no > >statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be > >removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my > >driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and > >Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion, > >they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather > >upset. > > > >This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD > >key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it > >in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It > >holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file. > > > >In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified > >enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and > >LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get > >deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account, > >with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the > >CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can > >distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the > >player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY > >servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers. > > > >With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY > >purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone > >else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner > >that caused an incident online. > > > >I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy. > ---------------- > Skotty Flynn > http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com >

Gunnar, The post below I sent was one of my first and now seems completely watered' down after all this time but I raced motorcycles professionally too for over 9+yrs & I agree with you! But I raced in the dirt tracks more then road & in the dirt races we had no brakes! But maybe you know all this? Anyway now I enjoy just hooking up with a good racer in N4, then just enjoy the ride whether I am 2nd or 15th.... I enjoy clean racing with another who can race door2door! This the fun of it for me!! "Gunnar Horrigmo" wrote:

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| I believe the root of the problem is that people are _way_ too | conserned with what's going on behind them. one of the first things I | learned when reacing in real life (bikes, but still) was "never look | back". not only is it none of your business, but you'll look | insecure to the riders behind you, and basically everyone ends up | freaking out, if only a little bit. :) | -- | Gunnar | "Thom j." <[email hidden]> writes: | > Common rule is: "all lappers" Try to always stay high & hold your line. | > It is basic and typed in chat in every race I go in.. It isnt that

unknown! | > I don't know this situation but the above is what all should do or tryto | > do in a online Nascar 4 race... | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Yes Thomas, I remembered this right after I hit the send key..lol Sorry bout dat... On my end, I prefer static.. :) "Thomas M�rlund" wrote: | I would assume they ban the key only. Quite a few people's got a dynamicIP

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| assigned when they connect to the net so I guess that would be pretty | pointless. | | -- | Thomas M�rlund | - Dick Dale forever! - | | "Thom j." wrote: | > A quick question: Since it appears this thread will be growing | > for awhile, When you're *banned* do they pull your CD-Key | > only? Or do they they get your IP address too? | > -Thom_j. | > | > | > --- | > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. | > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). | > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001 | > | > | |

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Well Dave C, At this point and after all these posts I barely remember your point and everything has become extremely watered down. So, whatever you say!! :) Enjoy.. "Dave Casey" wrote: | No I didn't. If you cut across the track and take out the leaders because | they can't figure out where you are going or what the hell you're doingthen | you should be taken behind the haulers and beaten soundly about the ears.But | if you are driving a straight, consistent line, making no unexpected lane | changes as the leaders come up on you, and you get drilled from behind byone | of them, it's their own damn fault. There is no contridiction here | whatsoever. | Dave Casey "Thom j." wrote: | >Now you just contradicted what you told me as bullshit & go back | >to the stay high & hold line! You are flip-flopping now or your just | >having a bad PMS day!! :)~ | | >| You don't seem to understand something here. If you had held your line | >high, driving a straight line and one of the leaders had plowed intoyou, then | >shame on them. It would have been their own damn fault. | ><snipped for example> | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

why do that? then they would just make a new name within 10min and be wrecking again in the next race... "Gary Wampler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Bvhi7.419$[email hidden]...

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> No one asked, but my 2cents: > Generally speaking, why ban at all? Couldn't the user's ID just be marked > or something for all to see? Maybe have an option for the host to prevent > anyone who has been "marked" from joining the race. > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Alex.. this banning and blaming stuff is quite dangerous. It's > > extremely hard to tell if a crash was intentional even if you have the > > replay. > > I did not watch the replay, this topic is interesting enough to keep > > it general, I don't want to start an endless discussion about this > > particulair replay. > > > > Banning should only be used when it's totally obvious. > > With totally obvious I mean a driver taking out every possible car, > > driving the wrong way, waiting untill a car is behind him and ramming > > him off the road.. we've all seen nutcases like these in N4 online. > > > > Everyone can have a bad day, making a totally stupid mistake causing > > an accident which looks intentional while watching the replay. > > One can even get carried away during a race, getting frustrated and > > taking out that frustration on someone else. This is only human, it > > even happens to real life drivers, and one should not be banned for > > this if it happens once. > > Unless it happens more than once ofcourse.. > > > > A warning should be given first, with a clear explanation of why the > > warning was given. The wrecker should have a fair chance to defend > > himself. A second (or third) time a wrecker causes the same stupid > > accident a ban would be justified. > > > > Andre > > > > >Thanks, > > >Alex > > > >

Hi Dave, congrats on your impressive command of the English language's less sophisticated aspects <g> But seriously, the reason I'm speaking up is that since Papy started this program, the quality of the racing on WON has improved tremendously. I wouldn't want Papy to stop the monitoring, and I wouldn't want us here to cause them to withdraw because we're bashing them too heavily. Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:g3gi7.141496$[email hidden]...

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> Geez. Why don't you just stick your tongue down the back of "Papy's" > trousers? They fucked up. The guy had never had a complaint against him > before. > > Wait until it happens to you. > > David G Fisher > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9mbbac$1a8s1$[email hidden]... > > Guys, > > > > I've gotten crashed out by wreckers so often that I am grateful to Papy > for > > having started taking action, and their anti-wrecker measures have had a > > positive effect on the quality of the races on WON. > > > > If Dodgefans' moves were just bad judgement, I'm sorry to hear he got > > banned, but after reading his mail and watching the excerpt from the > replay > > Alex uploaded, I have to say that if this doesn't at least _look_ like > > wrecking, then what should wrecking look like. Especially if you

consider

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> > that Dodgefan's mishaps always affected the same other driver. > > > > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for > measures > > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers > badly, > > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasant > job, > > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when they're > only > > trying to help us. > > > > I don't think Papy would mind good suggestions on how to improve the > > situation, maybe use a 'second chance' type of system of punishments or > > temporary bans (2 months on first offence, 6 months on second?). But > > starting to muse about legal action when Papy is only trying to help us

is > > not the way to go. > > > > Achim > > > > >

Hi Dave, no prob. Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JGgi7.141610$[email hidden]... > Sorry, I seriously meant to put a smiley face or something to indicatethat

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> my "tongue" comment was to be taken lightly. It's a line from a very funny > and crude British comedy (The Young Ones). > > David G Fisher > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:g3gi7.141496$[email hidden]... > > Geez. Why don't you just stick your tongue down the back of "Papy's" > > trousers? They fucked up. The guy had never had a complaint against him > > before. > > > > Wait until it happens to you. > > > > David G Fisher > >

Hi Dave, no prob. Achim > Sorry, I seriously meant to put a smiley face or something to indicate that

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> my "tongue" comment was to be taken lightly. It's a line from a very funny > and crude British comedy (The Young Ones). > David G Fisher > > Geez. Why don't you just stick your tongue down the back of "Papy's" > > trousers? They ***ed up. The guy had never had a complaint against him > > before. > > Wait until it happens to you. > > David G Fisher

Hi Jon, > Surely, noone would want Papy *not* to take actions against intentional > wreckers? This is what I am concerned about, and the reason why I'm contributing to this thread. I'm really sympathetic if the guy got banned unrightfully, and I know the current scheme isn't the optimum, but I'm seriously worried that thoughtless bashing might make Papy cancel their anti-wrecker efforts, and I really wouldn't want that to happen. Achim

>sry and PO should be mandatory, IMO. I've noticed in GPL, that racers almost always "PO" when the enter a server track. Now I know that means "Practice Only", but then they enter the race. Ummm what's the point? -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

>That's actually what I see happening, to a certain extent. Say there's a >league with 20 drivers. One gets banned from WON because of an accident ina >weekend pickup race. Now he can't run in league races, because the serveris >likely on WON. They probably wouldn't bypass WON just for the one driver. >What about if 7 or 8 get banned? What happens then? Just some morequestions >to throw out there... Couldn't the racer just connect through the league's server's I.P. address. The Serria.com servers are just mostly chat lobbies that connect you to the race server's I.P. aren't they? -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

Hi BH, I might try IanP's suggestion ;-) but seriously, if you got banned unrightfully I'm sorry for you, and I appreciate that you're angry. Still, from my point of view, Papy's anti-wrecker campaign has been a step in the right direction. Achim "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well you're patially correct.... other than I'm not an intentional > wrecker. We still got guys parking on the tracks and going backwards > wrecking the whole field and I make a mistake and make contact > (without even wrecking the guy i might add) and they ban me? Fair?... > you're day MAY be soon too... then we'll see how you take it > > bh > > > > "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<1Vgi7.2886$[email hidden]>...

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> > <snip> > > > If we want protection from wreckers, we'll have to accept the odd > > > mis-judgement. This is none different in 'real life'. We asked for > > measures > > > against wreckers to be taken, as we all were suffering from wreckers > > badly, > > > Papy decided to do us the favour although it's obviously an unpleasant > > job, > > > and IMHO we should thank them instead of letting them down when

they're

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> > only > > > trying to help us. > > <snip> > > > > Well said! > > > > Of course, I would have been less than happy if I was banned after

having a > > communication failure with other drivers. But I would prefer risking aban > > rather than to be taken out at almost every race I enter by driverswhoose

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> > only reason for being on track is to take out other drivers. > > > > Papy isn't banning people involved in race incidents. They aren't even > > banning those that takes out half the field with jump starts and apron > > passes. They are only trying to get rid of the intentional wrecker. > > > > Surely, noone would want Papy *not* to take actions against intentional > > wreckers? > > > > Jon Andersen

Remember, I think it was the first "Cannonball Run" or "Gumball Rally" movie. The one where the Italian Ferrari driver tears off the rear view mirror from the windshield and say's "What is behind us is of no concern". LOL Great sounds of the Ferrari Daytona & AC Cobra in that movie too. -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

Ahhhh..... Thom j. yer a Flat Tracker? Ever race Syracuse? XR750's ??? -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

>If you cut across the track and take out the leaders because >they can't figure out where you are going or what the hell you're doingthen >you should be taken behind the haulers and beaten soundly about the ears. LOL, wish I could reach through my monitor. he he -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

>Wrong. The problem is that anyone with a modem and the desire to drive can >join the races. >"That includes the morons that get their online training in the Quakearenas." ----------- ROTFLMAO ! ! ! ! ----------- >It has nothing to do with the ratings system. I have posted before that wreakers get more jollies seeing cars go airborne in N4, thus the migration. Hell I think I have a replay of a massive turn 3-4 wreak where one car gets stuck up in the fence at Daytona. -- Where to find Fred Gassit http://www.users.bigpond.com/abadonn/

PO stands for Pit Out, NOT practice only.....lol -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash REDLINE426 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZDvi7.47312$[email hidden]... > >sry and PO should be mandatory, IMO. > > I've noticed in GPL, that racers almost always "PO" when the enter a server > track. Now I know that means "Practice Only", but then they enter the race. > Ummm what's the point? > > -- > R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000 > > >

Oh OK. That explains it. Geeez I thought I read on Alison Hine's site (years ago) that meant "Practice Only", or was it what someone on a server told me. Guess I need a refresher course in GPL. LOL -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

Well that was my Bike. :) I raced mostly the eastcoast, a little up in NY state and out toward Ohio. I never got further then WG in bike racing except for NH when I did a bit or road racing. The rest was all basically south&west of me. Louisville was a great track tho' :) Oddly the track that almost did me in was right in Reading, Pa.. It almost took my life. Ouch! Would I do it all over again if I could? U betcha!! :) "REDLINE426" wrote:

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| Ahhhh..... Thom j. yer a Flat Tracker? Ever race Syracuse? XR750's ??? | | -- | R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000 | | |

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Hmmmm "Louisville was a great track tho' :)" was that a limestone track? Ever meet Rex Beauchamp? Spent many a Friday night at Ascot, just in the stands as a spectator. All my boss (LA Harley Davidson) would offer me was a HD motocrosser bike at cost. :( Remember those.........LOL -- Springer's DA MAN !

"REDLINE426" wrote ... > I've noticed in GPL, that racers almost always "PO" when the enter a server > track. Now I know that means "Practice Only", but then they enter the race. > Ummm what's the point? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think you'll find "PO" to be a fairly universal chat message standing for "Pit Out", in other words "keep you're eyes open, I'm leaving the pits now and entering the track."

On 27 Aug 2001 06:34:36 -0700, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: >:) >yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been emailing >papy about how you feel... We have? Anyone out there emailed Papy about this dilemma? :) ---------------- Skotty Flynn http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

<<Seriously guys... with anyone that has been wrecked by a real wrecker... don't they usually SIT on the track... or RIDE LOW then MOVE UP into the wall to hit the cars?>> Yep. Your right on that one. Except if I started reading the log-in message from Papyrus I would make sure whenever I wrecked someone, it would be very discreet. <<Papy's ranking system encourages you to keep racing for points...>> So does Nascars, but at somepoint, especially if you can't be safe to the other drivers, for the good of all involved...YOU PARK IT. >>I did have a 7 rating on ss... 5 on SW>> If I was a wrecker I would get the highest ratings I could so that I could mess with people who have a little more at stake, people who are in higher ranked races believing they are safe from wreckers. Whats the fun of wrecking someone with a ZERO ranking with nothing to lose? <<I would be glad to race you and any others... anytime you would like to prove how good of a driver I am.>> You may very well have the talent to be good. But I watched the replay and in my humble opinion, it was deliberate. You got what was coming to you. And if you don't like my answer, too bad, then don't offer your replay as proof. Michael Loos Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio! Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific Find your local affiliate at www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

Well you have to remember REDLINE this was a good 30yrs ago but I do know that the "Louisville" track was 'gravel-ly' or maybe I'd say almost 'rockie' as all get out.. You did not want to end up behind too many racers on that track cuz' those flyin' things hurt! I don't remember if it was 'limestone' or not but they hurt...lol Rex Beauchamp doesn't ring a bell but there were 100s of good racers back then and Chuck Palmgren, Gary Nixon, Monostero brothers, Bobbie Boker & 'many' more that really kept me busy each race! Back then Gary Nixon was National #1 and he was a superb' racer! Chuck Palmgren & the Monostero brothers were good friends and I raced for 'Harley' via Mills Harley Davidson. Wow! you sure took me back to a place I havent really thought about in years!! Thanx :) "REDLINE426" wrote: | Hmmmm "Louisville was a great track tho' :)" was that a limestone track? | Ever meet Rex Beauchamp? | | Spent many a Friday night at Ascot, just in the stands as a spectator. | All my boss (LA Harley Davidson) would offer me was a HD motocrosser bikeat

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| cost. :( | | Remember those.........LOL | | -- | Springer's DA MAN ! | | |

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

LOL! First time I saw it (first time online) I thought he meant p*** off! :oD -- Thomas M�rlund - Dick Dale forever! - "Don Jennings" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9me9go$1lt9d$[email hidden]... "REDLINE426" wrote ... > I've noticed in GPL, that racers almost always "PO" when the enter a server > track. Now I know that means "Practice Only", but then they enter the race. > Ummm what's the point? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think you'll find "PO" to be a fairly universal chat message standing for "Pit Out", in other words "keep you're eyes open, I'm leaving the pits now and entering the track."

yup PIT OUT a warning for those at speed to be cautious around the pit exit and just beyond. dave henrie "REDLINE426" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Tvwi7.47775$[email hidden]... > Oh OK. That explains it. Geeez I thought I read on Alison Hine's site(years > ago) that meant "Practice Only", or was it what someone on a server toldme.

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> Guess I need a refresher course in GPL. LOL > > -- > R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000 > > >

Ok guys... I'm back online racing again since I repurchased the game... and just got done racing online... raced in a papy server.. with a full field and I had to retire cause I went back through the replay and counted 7 wreckers.... by wreckers I mean: -Parked on the track -Sitting on backstretch waiting for leaders to come around making a mad dash -diving through the pits -wrecking half the field before the race started Now... these are REAL wreckers... and it is 100% OBVIOUS (which mine was not) I just want to say this... why are these people still racing and 1 got banned after one stupid mistake a made? Well... be careful... ANYONE can be banned now... and we still got plenty of wrecks out there. Ya know... i don't remember real wreckers in N3 like there are in N4... making the rating system... since it doesn't work the way it should... makes people wanta wreck others to piss them off... cause other than the rating system... IT'S JUST A GAME... GET OVER IT... GO RACE AGAIN... some people get way too serious about N4... let me rephrase that... people get way too serious about racing in a papy server... JOIN A LEAUGE

"B. Hilton" wrote: > > Ya know... i don't remember real wreckers in N3 like there are in > N4... You couldn't get airborne in N3. I suppose wreckers like to see stuff flyin'. > making the rating system... since it doesn't work the way it > should... makes people wanta wreck others to piss them off... cause > other than the rating system... IT'S JUST A GAME... GET OVER IT... GO > RACE AGAIN... [on the road courses :] > some people get way too serious about N4... let me > rephrase that... people get way too serious about racing in a papy > server... JOIN A LEAUGE Good idea. Maybe join a club that has many series where you don't have to join every race ;) http://www.scprc.com -- Jason Monds http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (GPL) http://www.scprc.com - Stock Car Division of the PRC. (N4, Fun Run Sims) (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Dave H? Really?? I thought PO=Pit Out & fly like hell pass those pits before the PO comes out! hahahaha "Dave Henrie" wrote: | yup PIT OUT a warning for those at speed to be cautious around the pit | exit and just beyond. | dave henrie --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Obviously Papy has a way of recognizing the CD-key being used. It could be tied to that, as is the ban. "Justin_M69" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> why do that? then they would just make a new name within 10min and be > wrecking again in the next race... > > > > "Gary Wampler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Bvhi7.419$[email hidden]... > > No one asked, but my 2cents: > > Generally speaking, why ban at all? Couldn't the user's ID just be

marked > > or something for all to see? Maybe have an option for the host toprevent > > anyone who has been "marked" from joining the race.

And it took you all this time to figure this out? phew.. "B. Hilton" wrote: | some people get way too serious about N4... let me | rephrase that... people get way too serious about racing in a papy | server... JOIN A LEAUGE --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

What big guys have left for EA and Hasbro?? Last I looked, pretty much all the folks that worked on N4 are still there, and still working on it. And why get involved in false rumours? Don Burnette "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> :) > yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been emailing > papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It > just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involved in > a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you in and > you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting > to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > > good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have > left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the > patch is taking so long? LOL > rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the > patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find a > way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... > > You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good rank. > > > > Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and thenreturn

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> > the box to the store for a refund. > > > > Also, see about a lawsuit. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > >

Hehe....PO stands for Pit Out. Just to correct you and help your understanding. -- Cheers Ginger "REDLINE426" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZDvi7.47312$[email hidden]... > >sry and PO should be mandatory, IMO. > > I've noticed in GPL, that racers almost always "PO" when the enter a server > track. Now I know that means "Practice Only", but then they enter the race. > Ummm what's the point? > > -- > R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000 > > >

He's probably referring to the MGI group that splintered off from Papyrus several years ago and Don Martin who was an employee of Papyrus, then the producer of Nascar Heat and now involved with the Nascar Thunder project coming out of EA. However, as you stated, these all left BEFORE N4 so their leaving would have little effect on current projects... dave henrie "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fBAi7.121600$[email hidden]... > What big guys have left for EA and Hasbro?? > > Last I looked, pretty much all the folks that worked on N4 are stillthere,

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> and still working on it. > And why get involved in false rumours? > > Don Burnette > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > :) > > yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been emailing > > papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It > > just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involved in > > a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you in and > > you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting > > to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > > > > good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have > > left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the > > patch is taking so long? LOL > > rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the > > patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find a > > way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... > > > You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good rank. > > > > > > Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and then > return > > > the box to the store for a refund. > > > > > > Also, see about a lawsuit. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone,

they > > > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > > > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > > >

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought he might be referring to, I just couldn't understand how those guys leaving would have anything to do with any patches for N4. Papy is very dedicated to N4, to the extent of trying to give us a very good online racing system, and even to the point of trying to police it somewhat now. Don Burnette "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VlBi7.10823$[email hidden]... > He's probably referring to the MGI group that splintered off fromPapyrus > several years ago and Don Martin who was an employee of Papyrus, then the > producer of Nascar Heat and now involved with the Nascar Thunder project > coming out of EA. > However, as you stated, these all left BEFORE N4 so their leavingwould

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> have little effect on current projects... > dave henrie > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fBAi7.121600$[email hidden]... > > What big guys have left for EA and Hasbro?? > > > > Last I looked, pretty much all the folks that worked on N4 are still > there, > > and still working on it. > > And why get involved in false rumours? > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > :) > > > yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been emailing > > > papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It > > > just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involved in > > > a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you in and > > > you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting > > > to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > > > > > > good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have > > > left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the > > > patch is taking so long? LOL > > > rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the > > > patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find a > > > way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... > > > > You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good rank. > > > > > > > > Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and then > > return > > > > the box to the store for a refund. > > > > > > > > Also, see about a lawsuit. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > > > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > > > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > > > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > > > > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, > they > > > > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT

ALL.

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> > > > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > > > > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > > > > > > > >

Have any of your N4 guys tried NHeat? I just got the game... and honestly.. there's some parts of it i like much better than N4. I didn't believe it either until i got it... might wanta think about giving it a shot... "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8rBi7.121967$[email hidden]... > Yeah, that's kind of what I thought he might be referring to, I just > couldn't understand how those guys leaving would have anything to do with > any patches for N4. > Papy is very dedicated to N4, to the extent of trying to give us a verygood > online racing system, and even to the point of trying to police itsomewhat

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> now. > > Don Burnette > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VlBi7.10823$[email hidden]... > > He's probably referring to the MGI group that splintered off from > Papyrus > > several years ago and Don Martin who was an employee of Papyrus, then

the

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> > producer of Nascar Heat and now involved with the Nascar Thunder project > > coming out of EA. > > However, as you stated, these all left BEFORE N4 so their leaving > would > > have little effect on current projects... > > dave henrie > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:fBAi7.121600$[email hidden]... > > > What big guys have left for EA and Hasbro?? > > > > > > Last I looked, pretty much all the folks that worked on N4 are still > > there, > > > and still working on it. > > > And why get involved in false rumours? > > > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > :) > > > > yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been

emailing > > > > papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It > > > > just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involvedin > > > > a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you inand

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> > > > you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting > > > > to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > > > > > > > > good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have > > > > left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the > > > > patch is taking so long? LOL > > > > rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the > > > > patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find

a > > > > way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... > > > > > You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a goodrank. > > > > > > > > > > Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, andthen

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> > > return > > > > > the box to the store for a refund. > > > > > > > > > > Also, see about a lawsuit. > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > > > > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > > > > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > > > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > > > > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY

from > > > > > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wreckingsomone, > > they > > > > > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT > ALL. > > > > > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version isthe

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> > > > > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I tried it when it first came out, hung it up shortly after until the first patch, tried it again, and have hung it up ever since. Don Burnette "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Have any of your N4 guys tried NHeat? I just got the game... andhonestly..

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> there's some parts of it i like much better than N4. I didn't believe it > either until i got it... might wanta think about giving it a shot... > > > > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8rBi7.121967$[email hidden]... > > Yeah, that's kind of what I thought he might be referring to, I just > > couldn't understand how those guys leaving would have anything to do

with

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> > any patches for N4. > > Papy is very dedicated to N4, to the extent of trying to give us a very > good > > online racing system, and even to the point of trying to police it > somewhat > > now. > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:VlBi7.10823$[email hidden]... > > > He's probably referring to the MGI group that splintered off from > > Papyrus > > > several years ago and Don Martin who was an employee of Papyrus, then > the > > > producer of Nascar Heat and now involved with the Nascar Thunder

project

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> > > coming out of EA. > > > However, as you stated, these all left BEFORE N4 so their leaving > > would > > > have little effect on current projects... > > > dave henrie > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:fBAi7.121600$[email hidden]... > > > > What big guys have left for EA and Hasbro?? > > > > > > > > Last I looked, pretty much all the folks that worked on N4 are still > > > there, > > > > and still working on it. > > > > And why get involved in false rumours? > > > > > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > :) > > > > > yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been > emailing > > > > > papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It > > > > > just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be

involved > in > > > > > a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you in > and > > > > > you get banned when there are still guys parked on the trackwaiting > > > > > to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > > > > > > > > > > good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guyshave > > > > > left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's whythe > > > > > patch is taking so long? LOL > > > > > rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the > > > > > patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying tofind

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> a > > > > > way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... > > > > > > You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good > rank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and > then > > > > return > > > > > > the box to the store for a refund. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, see about a lawsuit. > > > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > > > > > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > > > > > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING

ONLINE!!!

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> > > > > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > > > > > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY > from > > > > > > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking > somone, > > > they > > > > > > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online

AT

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> > ALL. > > > > > > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is > the > > > > > > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Yea I have it too but it just doesnt do anything for me... something just seems wrong when I run the tracks & I have no idea why? "Don Burnette" wrote: | I tried it when it first came out, hung it up shortly after until thefirst

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| patch, tried it again, and have hung it up ever since. | | Don Burnette | | | "B. Hilton" wrote: | > Have any of your N4 guys tried NHeat? I just got the game... and | honestly.. | > there's some parts of it i like much better than N4. I didn't believe

it | > either until i got it... might wanta think about giving it a shot... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

I ahave a copy you can have for $10. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Have any of your N4 guys tried NHeat? I just got the game... and honestly.. there's some parts of it i like much better than N4. I didn't believe it either until i got it... might wanta think about giving it a shot... "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8rBi7.121967$[email hidden]... > Yeah, that's kind of what I thought he might be referring to, I just > couldn't understand how those guys leaving would have anything to do with > any patches for N4. > Papy is very dedicated to N4, to the extent of trying to give us a verygood > online racing system, and even to the point of trying to police itsomewhat

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> now. > > Don Burnette > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VlBi7.10823$[email hidden]... > > He's probably referring to the MGI group that splintered off from > Papyrus > > several years ago and Don Martin who was an employee of Papyrus, then

the

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> > producer of Nascar Heat and now involved with the Nascar Thunder project > > coming out of EA. > > However, as you stated, these all left BEFORE N4 so their leaving > would > > have little effect on current projects... > > dave henrie > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:fBAi7.121600$[email hidden]... > > > What big guys have left for EA and Hasbro?? > > > > > > Last I looked, pretty much all the folks that worked on N4 are still > > there, > > > and still working on it. > > > And why get involved in false rumours? > > > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > :) > > > > yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been

emailing > > > > papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It > > > > just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involvedin > > > > a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you inand

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> > > > you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting > > > > to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > > > > > > > > good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have > > > > left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the > > > > patch is taking so long? LOL > > > > rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the > > > > patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find

a > > > > way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... > > > > > You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a goodrank. > > > > > > > > > > Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, andthen

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> > > return > > > > > the box to the store for a refund. > > > > > > > > > > Also, see about a lawsuit. > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > > > > > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > > > > > > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > > > > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > > > > > > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > > > > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY

from > > > > > > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wreckingsomone, > > they > > > > > > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT > ALL. > > > > > > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version isthe

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> > > > > > only thing worth a crap to play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Well admittedly so did I since I tried going on-line b4 having much of a clue about GPL. But I though since I had done so much on-line Nx racing that I knew enough to get started. Boy was I mistaken, but I certainly got up to speed fast with alot of excellent kind help from seasoned racers... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Thomas M�rlund <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b8abdbe$0$7957$[email hidden]... > LOL! First time I saw it (first time online) I thought he meant p*** off! > :oD > > -- > Thomas M�rlund > - Dick Dale forever! - > > "Don Jennings" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9me9go$1lt9d$[email hidden]... > "REDLINE426" wrote ... > > I've noticed in GPL, that racers almost always "PO" when the enter a > server > > track. Now I know that means "Practice Only", but then they enter the > race. > > Ummm what's the point? > > Maybe I'm missing something, but I think you'll find "PO" to be a fairly > universal chat message standing for "Pit Out", in other words "keep you're > eyes open, I'm leaving the pits now and entering the track." > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> writes: >Have any of your N4 guys tried NHeat? I just got the game... and honestly.. >there's some parts of it i like much better than N4. I didn't believe it >either until i got it... might wanta think about giving it a shot... > Why - so you can wreck someone there, too? <ducking> Eldred p.s. that was a JOKE. I just *had* to say it.... :) -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <GIvi7.47339$[email hidden]>, "REDLINE426" <[email hidden]> writes: >Couldn't the racer just connect through the league's server's I.P. address. >The Serria.com servers are just mostly chat lobbies that connect you to the >race server's I.P. aren't they? Nope - if the server's on WON, you can't connect direct IP. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) writes:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>raced in a papy server.. with a full field and I had to retire cause I >went back through the replay and counted 7 wreckers.... by wreckers I >mean: > >-Parked on the track >-Sitting on backstretch waiting for leaders to come around making a >mad dash >-diving through the pits >-wrecking half the field before the race started > >Now... these are REAL wreckers... and it is 100% OBVIOUS (which mine >was not) >I just want to say this... why are these people still racing and 1 got >banned after one stupid mistake a made?

Um...because nobody reported them....? Did *you*? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Damm Ur hot tonite E! :) I might have to put you above Dave H this week! Now this should toss a 'gauntlet' to Dave H to work harder :) "EldredP" wrote: | Why - so you can wreck someone there, too? | <ducking> | | Eldred "B. Hilton" writes: | >Have any of your N4 guys tried NHeat? I just got the game... andhonestly.. | >there's some parts of it i like much better than N4. I didn't believe it | >either until i got it... might wanta think about giving it a shot... | > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

well that kinda was my thinking to this to. heck at $50.00 a pop why would'nt they want you to buy the game twice or three times as many wreckers as i have seen on theses servers.if they banned them all. there sales will go up at least 75% if not more hehehehe. i mean when ya got 10 or 15 cars all spinning almost every lap and you are trying to drive thorugh them all well good luck. thats why i dont run on there servers at all.if you want your lpi to go up at all stay away from those papy loops at all cost its all but impossible to finsh in one peice and also with them loseing there people to ea well that could be the end of papy as we know it.looks like the next good raceing game will come from ea i say beware and becareful or it could be one of us banned for something we didnt do. why not give three warnings if it is not headed then ban them for a week and the next time 2 weeks and if you get banned for four weeks then you are history for good. then you should have to buy the game again if you still want to play don On 27 Aug 2001 06:34:36 -0700, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote:

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>:) >yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been emailing >papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It >just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involved in >a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you in and >you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting >to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > >good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have >left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the >patch is taking so long? LOL >rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the >patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find a >way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... >> You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good rank. >> >> Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and then return >> the box to the store for a refund. >> >> Also, see about a lawsuit. >> >> David G Fisher >> >> "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) >> > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar >> > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! >> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 >> > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> >> > >> > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from >> > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they >> > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. >> > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the >> > only thing worth a crap to play. >> >

lol that is what i would like to know On 27 Aug 2001 15:15:11 -0700, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote:

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>Ok guys... I'm back online racing again since I repurchased the >game... >and just got done racing online... > >raced in a papy server.. with a full field and I had to retire cause I >went back through the replay and counted 7 wreckers.... by wreckers I >mean: > >-Parked on the track >-Sitting on backstretch waiting for leaders to come around making a >mad dash >-diving through the pits >-wrecking half the field before the race started > >Now... these are REAL wreckers... and it is 100% OBVIOUS (which mine >was not) >I just want to say this... why are these people still racing and 1 got >banned after one stupid mistake a made? > >Well... be careful... ANYONE can be banned now... and we still got >plenty of wrecks out there. > >Ya know... i don't remember real wreckers in N3 like there are in >N4... making the rating system... since it doesn't work the way it >should... makes people wanta wreck others to piss them off... cause >other than the rating system... IT'S JUST A GAME... GET OVER IT... GO >RACE AGAIN... some people get way too serious about N4... let me >rephrase that... people get way too serious about racing in a papy >server... JOIN A LEAUGE

Looks like there are some people that have filed a complaint with the better business bureau...over the repurchase of the game [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> well that kinda was my thinking to this to. > heck at $50.00 a pop why would'nt they want you to buy the game twice > or three times as many wreckers as i have seen on theses servers.if > they banned them all. > there sales will go up at least 75% if not more hehehehe. > > i mean when ya got 10 or 15 cars all spinning almost every lap and you > are trying to drive thorugh them all well good luck. > > thats why i dont run on there servers at all.if you want your lpi to > go up at all stay away from those papy loops at all cost its all but > impossible to finsh in one peice > > and also with them loseing there people to ea well that could be the > end of papy as we know it.looks like the next good raceing game will > come from ea > > i say beware and becareful or it could be one of us banned for > something we didnt do. > > > why not give three warnings if it is not headed then ban them for a > week and the next time 2 weeks and if you get banned for four weeks > then you are history for good. then you should have to buy the game > again if you still want to play > > > don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 Aug 2001 06:34:36 -0700, [email hidden] (B. Hilton) wrote: > > >:) > >yea I've been screwed... but I think enough of you have been emailing > >papy about how you feel... they might relook into some things. It > >just bothers me to think some of you good drivers might be involved in > >a wreck... someone THINKS it's intentional... so they turn you in and > >you get banned when there are still guys parked on the track waiting > >to take out the whole field FOR FUN. > > > >good business from Papy huh? We'll most of the their big guys have > >left to EA and Hasbro for their racing games... maybe that's why the > >patch is taking so long? LOL > >rumors say that we might have to buy the expansion pack to get the > >patch... so tell me if that is right or not??? Papy trying to find a > >way to make us give them money.... they better be very careful :) > > > > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<DYfi7.141479$[email hidden]>... > >> You've been screwed. No complaints before this one, and a good rank. > >> > >> Due what Ian P suggested. Buy a new copy, switch the CD's, and then return > >> the box to the store for a refund. > >> > >> Also, see about a lawsuit. > >> > >> David G Fisher > >> > >> "B. Hilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:[email hidden]... > >> > From: [email hidden] (B. Hilton) > >> > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.nascar > >> > Subject: Nascar 4 Racing (PAPY) BANNED ME FROM RACING ONLINE!!! > >> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 164.89.253.3 > >> > Message-ID: <[email hidden]> > >> > > >> > The people at Papy Racing has now been banning people TOTALLY from > >> > racing online... if you are caught intentionally wrecking somone, they > >> > will ban your cd key which will not allow you to play online AT ALL. > >> > The offline version AI is so terrible... the online version is the > >> > only thing worth a crap to play. > >> >

The 14 second replay is an obvious attempt to take someone out, IMO. -- R.I.P. - William Joseph Dunlop OBE MBE 2/25/52 - 7/2/2000

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > and also with them loseing there people to ea well that could be the > end of papy as we know it.looks like the next good raceing game will > come from ea Of the people that have left Papyrus, the bulk of those left LONG before N4 was developed. Ed Martin is now at EA, but the Nascar Thunder title he is producing looks to be aimed at the console market first. And he left sometime between N2 and N3. The current crew at Papyrus has plenty of staffing and talent to produce a top notch sim. Nascar Thunder 'may' very well be a great title, but the departure of people from Papyrus has not limited what they can produce. dave henrie

"B. Hilton" wrote ... > I would be glad to race you and any others... anytime you would like > to prove how good of a driver I am. How "good of a driver" you are was proven to me way back in the beginning of this mess when you wrote: > (since I am off pace)... so I do the smart think (i thought) since the > racing line is up near the wall down the backstretch... I quickly dove > to the bottom apron on the straightstretch to let the lead cars pass > me... The first thing I learned about racing is that if you know you're going to be passed, HOLD YOUR LINE!!! (The caps there aren't my emphasis, it's the way it was explained to me ;-) The racing line is always low in the turns and high on the straights, good drivers who are off-pace don't jump back and forth from high in the turns and low on the straights to stay out of the way, for god's sake. They pick a line and stay there at a steady speed knowing that everyone will adjust to that and get by with no problem. So no additional evidence of driving ability is necessary. The sad part of this whole deal is that your initial point had (IMO) some merit. Everything you've said since that point, however, has been grossly counter-productive.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes:

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> >why not give three warnings if it is not headed then ban them for a >week and the next time 2 weeks and if you get banned for four weeks >then you are history for good. then you should have to buy the game >again if you still want to play > > >don >

Don, can I ask you a personel question? How old are you? I'm just curious, because of your writing style... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.