GTR2

its official, gtr2 is in development :o) http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php

its official, gtr2 is in development :o) http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php

I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > its official, gtr2 is in development :o) > http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4348552f$0$13315$[email hidden]...

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> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no > more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! > > > > "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> its official, gtr2 is in development :o) >> http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >> > > >

It's becoming another EA sports thing for ps2, they put out a new game every year just to sell more games.. Why not make an update to the old one and get more people to buy it that way..

I would argue that point for ever. I eagerly am waiting for GTL and GTR2, I bought rFactor on the first day and stopped playing it weeks ago. I just can't get into the "fake" cars and tracks( I know there are 2 tracks out there and the 3000 mod). GTR as well as GTL has 25 times the content and IMHO feels much more like "real" racing to me. Just one man's opinion and I am not taking sides, I support those that support sim racing and ISI obviously does that. Just not my cup of tea with rFactor. Chad "DJRJR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:A%Y1f.22499$[email hidden]...

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> > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4348552f$0$13315$[email hidden]... >> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no >> more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! >> >> >> >> "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> its official, gtr2 is in development :o) >>> http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >>> >> >> >> > > It's becoming another EA sports thing for ps2, they put out a new game > every year just to sell more games.. Why not make an update to the old one > and get more people to buy it that way.. >

In article <4348552f$0$13315$61c65585@un-2park-reader- 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, Byron Forbes says... > I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no > more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! I'm interested. They're more than just a mod to me. Cheers, Rod.

Have you ever driven a racing car and know how it feels and acts? Maybe your interest is more in arcade type of racing games than simulator type. I played rFactor demo for some time and didnt find anything why I should buy it. GTR has the real tracks, cars and quite nice overall feeling, the environment is as close as current games can get, but unfortunately, as in every game, it lacks the movement. Its difficult to argue about games, one looks for great graphic another driving feeling. For me graphic is of course part of a good game, but not as important as what is the driving feeling. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss�:4348552f$0$13315$[email hidden]...

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> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no > more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! > > > > "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> its official, gtr2 is in development :o) >> http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >> > > >

Ditto. You have expressed my feelings precisely. Bruce Chad Rogers wrote: > I would argue that point for ever. ....etc

How would you feel if a mod for rFactor was released that had all of the GTL cars, many of the tracks and drove better than GTL after you forked out for GTL? Or any mod for that matter. Do you really believe GTL will be as good as rFactor in 6 months? Or even 2 months? I'd say GTL would be lucky to be as good as rFactor even now! "RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <4348552f$0$13315$61c65585@un-2park-reader- > 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > Byron Forbes says... > >> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no >> more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! > > I'm interested. They're more than just a mod to me. > > Cheers, > Rod.

GTR is piss poor for online league racing - or it was last time I looked and it definantly is stuffed out of the box. "JML" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5cd2f.310$[email hidden]...

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> Have you ever driven a racing car and know how it feels and acts? Maybe > your interest is more in arcade type of racing games than simulator type. > I played rFactor demo for some time and didnt find anything why I should > buy it. GTR has the real tracks, cars and quite nice overall feeling, the > environment is as close as current games can get, but unfortunately, as in > every game, it lacks the movement. Its difficult to argue about games, one > looks for great graphic another driving feeling. For me graphic is of > course part of a good game, but not as important as what is the driving > feeling. > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti > viestiss�:4348552f$0$13315$[email hidden]... >> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no >> more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! >> >> >> >> "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> its official, gtr2 is in development :o) >>> http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >>> >> >> >> > >

Well, there is no doubt that real life tracks and cars have a definate novelty value. GPL is an excellent example - it conveyed the awesome tracks and cars of the day brilliantly. It was also, more importantly, a complete game and in no way alpha or beta code. As far as GTL and GTR2 goes, first of all Simbin took us all for a ride. Once bitten........................ Secondly, the novelty of real life stuff soon disappears and all that remains is either a great simming experience or an unsatisfying, frustrating experience eg. GTR. rFactor has plenty to keep me going as it is for at least 6 months, but the reality is that in the next 6 months there will be a ton of tracks and mods relesed for it. Even taking my dislike for Simbin out of the equation, I see no reason to fork out for GTL or GTR2 when rFactor will no doubt dish up the same and in a proven format as well. It just seems like a waste of money to me unless the cars in GTL hold a VERY special place in your heart. The above is the attitude of someone only interested in online league racing ie a proper simmer! LOL "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I would argue that point for ever. I eagerly am waiting for GTL and GTR2, >I bought rFactor on the first day and stopped playing it weeks ago. I just >can't get into the "fake" cars and tracks( I know there are 2 tracks out >there and the 3000 mod). GTR as well as GTL has 25 times the content and >IMHO feels much more like "real" racing to me. Just one man's opinion and >I am not taking sides, I support those that support sim racing and ISI >obviously does that. Just not my cup of tea with rFactor. > > Chad > > > "DJRJR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:A%Y1f.22499$[email hidden]... >> >> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:4348552f$0$13315$[email hidden]... >>> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no >>> more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! >>> >>> >>> >>> "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> its official, gtr2 is in development :o) >>>> http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> It's becoming another EA sports thing for ps2, they put out a new game >> every year just to sell more games.. Why not make an update to the old >> one and get more people to buy it that way.. >> > >

Laughable, rFactor isn't in the same ballpark. Do a little research around and see what the "proper simmers" are running leagues with. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:434b19b6$0$13320$[email hidden]...

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> How would you feel if a mod for rFactor was released that had all of > the > GTL cars, many of the tracks and drove better than GTL after you forked > out > for GTL? Or any mod for that matter. Do you really believe GTL will be as > good as rFactor in 6 months? Or even 2 months? I'd say GTL would be lucky > to > be as good as rFactor even now! > > > "RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> In article <4348552f$0$13315$61c65585@un-2park-reader- >> 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, >> Byron Forbes says... >> >>> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no >>> more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! >> >> I'm interested. They're more than just a mod to me. >> >> Cheers, >> Rod. > > >

I sure didn't get taken for a ride by Simbin, I played GTR for 6 straight months, I barely played rFactor for 6 days before it became boring. I have great hope for modders, but what does that have to do with how good rFactor is right now. As for your proper simmer comments they are laughable, have a look around the net and see where most of the world top simmers are....GTR. Some are still running 2003, and I will bet there will be plenty running GTL, a hell of a lot more than will be running rFactor. Chad "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:434b19c3$0$13318$[email hidden]...

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> Well, there is no doubt that real life tracks and cars have a definate > novelty value. GPL is an excellent example - it conveyed the awesome > tracks > and cars of the day brilliantly. It was also, more importantly, a complete > game and in no way alpha or beta code. > > As far as GTL and GTR2 goes, first of all Simbin took us all for a > ride. > Once bitten........................ > > Secondly, the novelty of real life stuff soon disappears and all that > remains is either a great simming experience or an unsatisfying, > frustrating > experience eg. GTR. rFactor has plenty to keep me going as it is for at > least 6 months, but the reality is that in the next 6 months there will be > a > ton of tracks and mods relesed for it. Even taking my dislike for Simbin > out > of the equation, I see no reason to fork out for GTL or GTR2 when rFactor > will no doubt dish up the same and in a proven format as well. It just > seems > like a waste of money to me unless the cars in GTL hold a VERY special > place > in your heart. > > The above is the attitude of someone only interested in online league > racing ie a proper simmer! LOL > > > > "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>I would argue that point for ever. I eagerly am waiting for GTL and GTR2, >>I bought rFactor on the first day and stopped playing it weeks ago. I >>just >>can't get into the "fake" cars and tracks( I know there are 2 tracks out >>there and the 3000 mod). GTR as well as GTL has 25 times the content and >>IMHO feels much more like "real" racing to me. Just one man's opinion and >>I am not taking sides, I support those that support sim racing and ISI >>obviously does that. Just not my cup of tea with rFactor. >> >> Chad >> >> >> "DJRJR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:A%Y1f.22499$[email hidden]... >>> >>> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:4348552f$0$13315$[email hidden]... >>>> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are no >>>> more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>> news:[email hidden]... >>>>> its official, gtr2 is in development :o) >>>>> http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> It's becoming another EA sports thing for ps2, they put out a new game >>> every year just to sell more games.. Why not make an update to the old >>> one and get more people to buy it that way.. >>> >> >> > > >

"It just seems like a waste of money to me unless the cars in GTL hold a VERY special place in your heart." Is there any racing fan here that a car or two or three in GTL doesn't hold a special place in their heart? I would guess no, not nearly as much fun as a 4wd Houston or .... I don't mean to bash rFactor, but the sims are not even comparable at this point. Rfactor has 1/20th of the content. The Formula cars are a joke, the cockpits in the sports cars look like the inside of my taurus. The only real fun I had with it was in the trainers which I think are very well done. Chad "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I sure didn't get taken for a ride by Simbin, I played GTR for 6 straight >months, I barely played rFactor for 6 days before it became boring. I have >great hope for modders, but what does that have to do with how good rFactor >is right now. > As for your proper simmer comments they are laughable, have a look around > the net and see where most of the world top simmers are....GTR. Some are > still running 2003, and I will bet there will be plenty running GTL, a > hell of a lot more than will be running rFactor. > > Chad > > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:434b19c3$0$13318$[email hidden]... >> Well, there is no doubt that real life tracks and cars have a definate >> novelty value. GPL is an excellent example - it conveyed the awesome >> tracks >> and cars of the day brilliantly. It was also, more importantly, a >> complete >> game and in no way alpha or beta code. >> >> As far as GTL and GTR2 goes, first of all Simbin took us all for a >> ride. >> Once bitten........................ >> >> Secondly, the novelty of real life stuff soon disappears and all that >> remains is either a great simming experience or an unsatisfying, >> frustrating >> experience eg. GTR. rFactor has plenty to keep me going as it is for at >> least 6 months, but the reality is that in the next 6 months there will >> be a >> ton of tracks and mods relesed for it. Even taking my dislike for Simbin >> out >> of the equation, I see no reason to fork out for GTL or GTR2 when rFactor >> will no doubt dish up the same and in a proven format as well. It just >> seems >> like a waste of money to me unless the cars in GTL hold a VERY special >> place >> in your heart. >> >> The above is the attitude of someone only interested in online league >> racing ie a proper simmer! LOL >> >> >> >> "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>>I would argue that point for ever. I eagerly am waiting for GTL and >>>GTR2, >>>I bought rFactor on the first day and stopped playing it weeks ago. I >>>just >>>can't get into the "fake" cars and tracks( I know there are 2 tracks out >>>there and the 3000 mod). GTR as well as GTL has 25 times the content and >>>IMHO feels much more like "real" racing to me. Just one man's opinion >>>and >>>I am not taking sides, I support those that support sim racing and ISI >>>obviously does that. Just not my cup of tea with rFactor. >>> >>> Chad >>> >>> >>> "DJRJR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:A%Y1f.22499$[email hidden]... >>>> >>>> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>> news:4348552f$0$13315$[email hidden]... >>>>> I'm surprised anyone is even interested in GTL or GTR2 - they are >>>>> no >>>>> more than mods for rFactor and not even as good! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "tango" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>>> news:[email hidden]... >>>>>> its official, gtr2 is in development :o) >>>>>> http://www.blimeygames.com/games.php >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's becoming another EA sports thing for ps2, they put out a new game >>>> every year just to sell more games.. Why not make an update to the old >>>> one and get more people to buy it that way.. >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > >

In article <434b19b6$0$13320$61c65585@un-2park-reader- 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, Byron Forbes says... > How would you feel if a mod for rFactor was released that had all of the > GTL cars, many of the tracks and drove better than GTL after you forked out > for GTL? Or any mod for that matter. Do you really believe GTL will be as > good as rFactor in 6 months? Or even 2 months? I'd say GTL would be lucky to > be as good as rFactor even now! Wouldn't particularly bother me. I doubt there will be any mods that are modelled to the detail that simbin have modelled GTL. As far as I know there are none currently in the pipeline so forking out for GTL is a no brainer for me. Cheers, Rod.

"Novelty value" for real-life and/or historical tracks??? "Soon disappears"??? Maybe for some, Byron (including yourself), but for many of us out here, the "novelty value" sits with the fantasy circuits, not the genuine article. For one who was first grabbed by F1 back in the early sixties, I have far more affinity with a real circuit than I do a fictional item. Same goes for cars. Part of the historical simming experience is pretence and I would rather be in Fantasyland when attempting to control a Lotus Elise around the Nordschliefe than in a Zoomer Mk IV blasting down pit straight on the Mozarella International Autodrome. Bruce Byron Forbes wrote: > Well, there is no doubt that real life tracks and cars have a definate > novelty value.

What good is all that if you can't actually race online? Isn't that the point of all this - racing? In my opinion, all of the people who only race offline AI aren't racers - they're just role players or posers (or they don't have a decent net connection!) Racing GTR online is a painful experience - mainly because it's such a good sim but the bugs rear their ugly heads just often enough to make you want to throw your wheel & pedals across the room. For us true road racers, there's currently only 2 options - GPL (outdated physics) or rFactor. For those who shun fantasy tracks, I can tell you that 20 minutes into an online race, I really couldn't care less whether the track exists in real life or not.

> Part of the historical simming experience is pretence and I would rather > be in Fantasyland when attempting to control a Lotus Elise around the > Nordschliefe than in a Zoomer Mk IV blasting down pit straight on the > Mozarella International Autodrome. I only judge a car/track by the racing it produces

>>Racing GTR online is a painful experience - mainly because it's such a good sim but the bugs rear their ugly heads just often enough to make you want to throw your wheel & pedals across the room. For us true road racers, there's currently only 2 options - GPL (outdated physics) or rFactor. For those who shun fantasy tracks, I can tell you that 20 minutes into an online race, I really couldn't care less whether the track exists in real life or not. << Thanks Steve.... I didn't have to do the typing ;) I agree with you, word for word, above! Cheers ==--== "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:op.sygzrenq2umb9s@redmist...

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> What good is all that if you can't actually race online? Isn't that the > point of all this - racing? > > In my opinion, all of the people who only race offline AI aren't racers - > they're just role players or posers (or they don't have a decent net > connection!) > > Racing GTR online is a painful experience - mainly because it's such a > good sim but the bugs rear their ugly heads just often enough to make you > want to throw your wheel & pedals across the room. > > For us true road racers, there's currently only 2 options - GPL (outdated > physics) or rFactor. > > For those who shun fantasy tracks, I can tell you that 20 minutes into an > online race, I really couldn't care less whether the track exists in real > life or not.

Steve, I mostly agree, but have heard nothing but good things about GTL multi. I think many here are overreacting about it's multi based on what was seen with GTR. I expect it to be much better. "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:op.sygzrenq2umb9s@redmist...

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> What good is all that if you can't actually race online? Isn't that the > point of all this - racing? > > In my opinion, all of the people who only race offline AI aren't racers - > they're just role players or posers (or they don't have a decent net > connection!) > > Racing GTR online is a painful experience - mainly because it's such a > good sim but the bugs rear their ugly heads just often enough to make you > want to throw your wheel & pedals across the room. > > For us true road racers, there's currently only 2 options - GPL (outdated > physics) or rFactor. > > For those who shun fantasy tracks, I can tell you that 20 minutes into an > online race, I really couldn't care less whether the track exists in real > life or not.

Bruce <[email hidden]> wrote in news:434b6748$[email hidden]:

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> > Part of the historical simming experience is pretence and I would rather > be in Fantasyland when attempting to control a Lotus Elise around the > Nordschliefe than in a Zoomer Mk IV blasting down pit straight on the > Mozarella International Autodrome. > > Bruce

But aren't you shortchanging the Pepporoni esses and the achovie dive? dave henrie

"RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <434b19b6$0$13320$61c65585@un-2park-reader- > 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > Byron Forbes says... > >> How would you feel if a mod for rFactor was released that had all of the >> GTL cars, many of the tracks and drove better than GTL after you forked >> out >> for GTL? Or any mod for that matter. Do you really believe GTL will be as >> good as rFactor in 6 months? Or even 2 months? I'd say GTL would be lucky >> to >> be as good as rFactor even now! > > Wouldn't particularly bother me. I doubt there will be any mods that are > modelled to the detail that simbin have modelled GTL. As far as I know > there are none currently in the pipeline so forking out for GTL is a no > brainer for me. > > Cheers, > Rod.

If you're talking about graphics detail - http://wdt.f1gaming.de/portofolio_mclaren.html As far as detail of tracks/physics - just sales hype bullshit. Lets not forget this was the company that was telling the world all about how good there multi was in every magazine they could talk to - they are full of shit and it will take a lot to convince me that they're much more than just another arsehole company milking the sim community for every penny they can. They would tell you anything about the detail of this and that - anything for a sale!

"Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Laughable, rFactor isn't in the same ballpark. Do a little research > around and see what the "proper simmers" are running leagues with. > Maybe, but give rFactor a few tracks, a few mods and the end of these GTR leagues present seasons, and GTR will be a dim memory in no time. I think you'll find both League Directors and drivers alike will prefer the dedicated server, Racecast and supreme multi with no bugs.

"Bruce" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:434b6748$[email hidden]...

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> "Novelty value" for real-life and/or historical tracks??? > "Soon disappears"??? > Maybe for some, Byron (including yourself), but for many of us out here, > the "novelty value" sits with the fantasy circuits, not the genuine > article. > > For one who was first grabbed by F1 back in the early sixties, I have far > more affinity with a real circuit than I do a fictional item. > Same goes for cars. > > Part of the historical simming experience is pretence and I would rather > be in Fantasyland when attempting to control a Lotus Elise around the > Nordschliefe than in a Zoomer Mk IV blasting down pit straight on the > Mozarella International Autodrome. > > Bruce >

Agreed. But I would MUCH rather be using a 1st class piece of software that doesn't interupt whatever experience is on offer due to bugs or programming shortcomings!

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:op.sygzrenq2umb9s@redmist... > > For those who shun fantasy tracks, I can tell you that 20 minutes into an > online race, I really couldn't care less whether the track exists in real > life or not. I think we need to modify our view here a bit more even - the tracks that don't exist "irl" actually do exist "irl" - one's in the form of aspalt, ect, the other in the form of pixels. Have a think about how idiotic it is to limit yourself to real life tracks only - just nuts. The novelty value of things based on real life stuff is undoubted. But there must be as much if not more novelty to being able to create a track without the limitations of the available landscape, money or safety.

In article <434c5057$0$13321$61c65585@un-2park-reader- 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, Byron Forbes says...

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> > Wouldn't particularly bother me. I doubt there will be any mods that are > > modelled to the detail that simbin have modelled GTL. As far as I know > > there are none currently in the pipeline so forking out for GTL is a no > > brainer for me. > If you're talking about graphics detail - > http://wdt.f1gaming.de/portofolio_mclaren.html > > As far as detail of tracks/physics - just sales hype bullshit. Lets not > forget this was the company that was telling the world all about how good > there multi was in every magazine they could talk to - they are full of shit > and it will take a lot to convince me that they're much more than just > another arsehole company milking the sim community for every penny they can. > They would tell you anything about the detail of this and that - anything > for a sale!

Yet I don't play multi, so that's not much concern to me. They're delivering a product that I feel is value for my money and there's nothing you can say that will change that. I liked GTR, I liked GTL's demo and when GTL is available to purchase in Aus I will be buying it. The way people choose to spend their earned dollars shouldn't be this much of a concern to you. I went car shopping 6 months ago and had salesmen telling me bullshit and the product I was buying was $50,000 and not $50. It's scarier when you know more about the product than the salesman that is trying to sell it to you. Ultimately I made my decision based on independant resources and my own evaluations by taking the product for a spin around the area. Same deal with GTL. Cheers, Rod.

>"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote > Maybe, but give rFactor a few tracks, a few mods and the end of these > GTR leagues present seasons, and GTR will be a dim memory in no time. I > think you'll find both League Directors and drivers alike will prefer the > dedicated server, Racecast and supreme multi with no bugs. Yeah and ISI/10tacle/Simbin slaps those guys with a Cease&Decist. It's gonna happen with rFactor, I bet you all. They all saw what happened with iRacing, they can protect their investment and they will do it. Just wait and see. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "It just seems like a waste of money to me unless the cars in GTL hold a > VERY special place in your heart." > > Is there any racing fan here that a car or two or three in GTL doesn't > hold a special place in their heart? I would guess no, not nearly as much > fun as a 4wd Houston or .... Me. Couldn't care less about old cars that don't handle well. -- David G Fisher

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Yeah and ISI/10tacle/Simbin slaps those guys with a Cease&Decist. It's > gonna happen with rFactor, I bet you all. They all saw what happened with > iRacing, they can protect their investment and they will do it. Just wait > and see. why would ISI issue a c&d on a mod for its own game? cheers steve

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>"Steve Whitty" <[email hidden]> wrote > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> Yeah and ISI/10tacle/Simbin slaps those guys with a Cease&Decist. It's >> gonna happen with rFactor, I bet you all. They all saw what happened >> with iRacing, they can protect their investment and they will do it. Just >> wait and see. > > why would ISI issue a c&d on a mod for its own game?

Simple : to protect their own assets. Just like iRacing did on their own game (well owning the code for it, blah). I'm absolutely sure that if somebody tries to mod something similar to GTL or GTR (or whatever the ISI serves next) into rFactor, they will get a C&D. That's why the whole modding scene for rFactor has to be taken with a grain of salt. They already did it in the past. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

You are comparing what modders are making and GTL. I am comparing rFactor and GTL. We will have to wait and see with the multi in GTL, I am hopeful it will be much improved. I agree most of the GTR leagues will die off soon, but I am not so sure they will go to rFactor, more likely GTL and GTR2. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:434c505d$0$13321$[email hidden]...

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> > "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Laughable, rFactor isn't in the same ballpark. Do a little research >> around and see what the "proper simmers" are running leagues with. >> > > Maybe, but give rFactor a few tracks, a few mods and the end of these > GTR leagues present seasons, and GTR will be a dim memory in no time. I > think you'll find both League Directors and drivers alike will prefer the > dedicated server, Racecast and supreme multi with no bugs. > > >

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> As far as detail of tracks/physics - just sales hype bullshit. Lets > not > forget this was the company that was telling the world all about how good > there multi was in every magazine they could talk to - they are full of > shit > and it will take a lot to convince me that they're much more than just > another arsehole company milking the sim community for every penny they > can. > They would tell you anything about the detail of this and that - anything > for a sale!

Talking about accuracy in Simbin's games, the pit exit at Spa comes to mind - it's not even close to the real thing.

"RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > They're delivering a product that I feel is value for my money and > there's nothing you can say that will change that. I liked GTR, I > liked GTL's demo and when GTL is available to purchase in Aus I will > be buying it. The way people choose to spend their earned dollars > shouldn't be this much of a concern to you. > > I went car shopping 6 months ago and had salesmen telling me bullshit > and the product I was buying was $50,000 and not $50. It's scarier when > you know more about the product than the salesman that is trying to sell > it to you. Ultimately I made my decision based on independant resources > and my own evaluations by taking the product for a spin around the area. > Same deal with GTL. >

Sure - I just screw it to Simbin every chance I get. Don't like arseholes getting fat at my expense! They simply outright lied to and deceived the sim community with GTR - a simple fact that belongs here. And it will belong here and be here for a while yet so settle in. :) If they send me a free copy of GTL AND it actuall does what they claim, I might lay off. ie I'll be shitting on them for a while yet.

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_e13f.4893$[email hidden]...

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> >"Steve Whitty" <[email hidden]> wrote >> "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> Yeah and ISI/10tacle/Simbin slaps those guys with a Cease&Decist. It's >>> gonna happen with rFactor, I bet you all. They all saw what happened >>> with iRacing, they can protect their investment and they will do it. >>> Just wait and see. >> >> why would ISI issue a c&d on a mod for its own game? > > > Simple : to protect their own assets. > > > Just like iRacing did on their own game (well owning the code for it, > blah). I'm absolutely sure that if somebody tries to mod something similar > to GTL or GTR (or whatever the ISI serves next) into rFactor, they will > get a C&D. That's why the whole modding scene for rFactor has to be taken > with a grain of salt. They already did it in the past. >

Well, no word from the F3 group so far! Lull b4 the storm? :)

Bryon, You are living in a dream world. What game is not hyped? That is the nature of selling it. Show me a game or group that isn't hyping and boasting about their game. Please don't say rFactor because the game has about 1/2 of the features that they said it would. I know they say in the future, but do we really know they will come? Time will tell. I don't feel misled at all by Simbin, the multi wasn't great, although I have had plenty of great races with it. Chad "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:434c5057$0$13321$[email hidden]...

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> > "RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> In article <434b19b6$0$13320$61c65585@un-2park-reader- >> 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, >> Byron Forbes says... >> >>> How would you feel if a mod for rFactor was released that had all of the >>> GTL cars, many of the tracks and drove better than GTL after you forked >>> out >>> for GTL? Or any mod for that matter. Do you really believe GTL will be >>> as >>> good as rFactor in 6 months? Or even 2 months? I'd say GTL would be >>> lucky >>> to >>> be as good as rFactor even now! >> >> Wouldn't particularly bother me. I doubt there will be any mods that are >> modelled to the detail that simbin have modelled GTL. As far as I know >> there are none currently in the pipeline so forking out for GTL is a no >> brainer for me. >> >> Cheers, >> Rod. > > If you're talking about graphics detail - > http://wdt.f1gaming.de/portofolio_mclaren.html > > As far as detail of tracks/physics - just sales hype bullshit. Lets not > forget this was the company that was telling the world all about how good > there multi was in every magazine they could talk to - they are full of > shit > and it will take a lot to convince me that they're much more than just > another arsehole company milking the sim community for every penny they > can. > They would tell you anything about the detail of this and that - anything > for a sale! > > >

In article <434d2611$0$13322$61c65585@un-2park-reader- 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, Byron Forbes says...

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> Sure - I just screw it to Simbin every chance I get. Don't like > arseholes getting fat at my expense! They simply outright lied to and > deceived the sim community with GTR - a simple fact that belongs here. And > it will belong here and be here for a while yet so settle in. :) > > If they send me a free copy of GTL AND it actuall does what they claim, > I might lay off. ie I'll be shitting on them for a while yet.

Sheesh, get over it. Your time isn't obviously worth much since you devote so much of it on such a pointless endeavour. If I was to do the same as you're doing to the games that I had bought that didn't appeal to me, I'd have to quit my job and become a full time nutter. Cheers, Rod.

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> Byron Forbes says... > >> Sure - I just screw it to Simbin every chance I get. Don't like >> arseholes getting fat at my expense! They simply outright lied to and >> deceived the sim community with GTR - a simple fact that belongs here. >> And >> it will belong here and be here for a while yet so settle in. :) >> >> If they send me a free copy of GTL AND it actuall does what they >> claim, >> I might lay off. ie I'll be shitting on them for a while yet. > > Sheesh, get over it. Your time isn't obviously worth much since > you devote so much of it on such a pointless endeavour. If I was > to do the same as you're doing to the games that I had bought that > didn't appeal to me, I'd have to quit my job and become a full time > nutter. > > Cheers, > Rod.

No need to quit that job Rod. :)

"Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Bryon, > > You are living in a dream world. What game is not hyped? That is the > nature of selling it. Show me a game or group that isn't hyping and > boasting about their game. Please don't say rFactor because the game has > about 1/2 of the features that they said it would. I know they say in the > future, but do we really know they will come? Time will tell. I don't > feel misled at all by Simbin, the multi wasn't great, although I have had > plenty of great races with it. >

There is hype and there are lies - anyone who looks over autosimsport every month would have seen that they were outright lying about the multi to games magazines and the world in general. There was some idiot moderator at their forums that publically stated, soon after or b4 the German release, that multi was an afterthough since market research indicated there was not much money in that. That was the truth. One of the reps from Sinbin came in here disputing that that was said on their forum and I promptly pointed him to the exact post. He was embarrassed and claimed it was not the case - clearly it was.

In article <434e1aac$0$13317$61c65585@un-2park-reader- 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, Byron Forbes says...

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> > Sheesh, get over it. Your time isn't obviously worth much since > > you devote so much of it on such a pointless endeavour. If I was > > to do the same as you're doing to the games that I had bought that > > didn't appeal to me, I'd have to quit my job and become a full time > > nutter. > > No need to quit that job Rod. :)

Indeed, you're holding up your end admirably. Cheers, Rod.

And you know that the moderator spoke for Simbin? Again, still a bit much to have this much venom about a game that was really pretty damn good. There are many, many GTR leagues running right now with drivers from all over the world playing. You just have to jump through some hoops to get the multi working ok(I am not trying to sell the multi as great). "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:434e1ab3$0$13319$[email hidden]...

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> > "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Bryon, >> >> You are living in a dream world. What game is not hyped? That is the >> nature of selling it. Show me a game or group that isn't hyping and >> boasting about their game. Please don't say rFactor because the game has >> about 1/2 of the features that they said it would. I know they say in >> the >> future, but do we really know they will come? Time will tell. I don't >> feel misled at all by Simbin, the multi wasn't great, although I have had >> plenty of great races with it. >> > > There is hype and there are lies - anyone who looks over autosimsport > every month would have seen that they were outright lying about the multi > to > games magazines and the world in general. > > There was some idiot moderator at their forums that publically stated, > soon after or b4 the German release, that multi was an afterthough since > market research indicated there was not much money in that. That was the > truth. One of the reps from Sinbin came in here disputing that that was > said > on their forum and I promptly pointed him to the exact post. He was > embarrassed and claimed it was not the case - clearly it was. > > >

GTR was great fun for me and very much worth the $40 I paid as well. Was it perfect? No, but to hear this daily crying you would think Simbin came over to his house and gang banged his mother in front of him or something. I'm much more PO'd that the N.America release of GTL isnt till next year ;) Mitch "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> And you know that the moderator spoke for Simbin? Again, still a bit much > to have this much venom about a game that was really pretty damn good. > There are many, many GTR leagues running right now with drivers from all > over the world playing. You just have to jump through some hoops to get > the multi working ok(I am not trying to sell the multi as great). > > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:434e1ab3$0$13319$[email hidden]... >> >> "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> Bryon, >>> >>> You are living in a dream world. What game is not hyped? That is the >>> nature of selling it. Show me a game or group that isn't hyping and >>> boasting about their game. Please don't say rFactor because the game >>> has >>> about 1/2 of the features that they said it would. I know they say in >>> the >>> future, but do we really know they will come? Time will tell. I don't >>> feel misled at all by Simbin, the multi wasn't great, although I have >>> had >>> plenty of great races with it. >>> >> >> There is hype and there are lies - anyone who looks over autosimsport >> every month would have seen that they were outright lying about the multi >> to >> games magazines and the world in general. >> >> There was some idiot moderator at their forums that publically stated, >> soon after or b4 the German release, that multi was an afterthough since >> market research indicated there was not much money in that. That was the >> truth. One of the reps from Sinbin came in here disputing that that was >> said >> on their forum and I promptly pointed him to the exact post. He was >> embarrassed and claimed it was not the case - clearly it was. >> >> >> > >

I already ordered it from Sweden, rumor that gogamer has it out now and is shipping 2 day air in the us. "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%1v3f.1488$[email hidden]...

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> GTR was great fun for me and very much worth the $40 I paid as well. Was > it perfect? No, but to hear this daily crying you would think Simbin came > over to his house and gang banged his mother in front of him or something. > > I'm much more PO'd that the N.America release of GTL isnt till next year > ;) > > > Mitch > > > "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> And you know that the moderator spoke for Simbin? Again, still a bit >> much to have this much venom about a game that was really pretty damn >> good. There are many, many GTR leagues running right now with drivers >> from all over the world playing. You just have to jump through some >> hoops to get the multi working ok(I am not trying to sell the multi as >> great). >> >> >> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:434e1ab3$0$13319$[email hidden]... >>> >>> "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> Bryon, >>>> >>>> You are living in a dream world. What game is not hyped? That is the >>>> nature of selling it. Show me a game or group that isn't hyping and >>>> boasting about their game. Please don't say rFactor because the game >>>> has >>>> about 1/2 of the features that they said it would. I know they say in >>>> the >>>> future, but do we really know they will come? Time will tell. I don't >>>> feel misled at all by Simbin, the multi wasn't great, although I have >>>> had >>>> plenty of great races with it. >>>> >>> >>> There is hype and there are lies - anyone who looks over autosimsport >>> every month would have seen that they were outright lying about the >>> multi to >>> games magazines and the world in general. >>> >>> There was some idiot moderator at their forums that publically >>> stated, >>> soon after or b4 the German release, that multi was an afterthough since >>> market research indicated there was not much money in that. That was the >>> truth. One of the reps from Sinbin came in here disputing that that was >>> said >>> on their forum and I promptly pointed him to the exact post. He was >>> embarrassed and claimed it was not the case - clearly it was. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >

"RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <434e1aac$0$13317$61c65585@un-2park-reader- > 01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > Byron Forbes says... > >> > Sheesh, get over it. Your time isn't obviously worth much since >> > you devote so much of it on such a pointless endeavour. If I was >> > to do the same as you're doing to the games that I had bought that >> > didn't appeal to me, I'd have to quit my job and become a full time >> > nutter. >> >> No need to quit that job Rod. :) > > Indeed, you're holding up your end admirably. >

Have you heard that joke with the punch line - "We might be mad in here but we're not bloody stupid!" ??

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%1v3f.1488$[email hidden]... > GTR was great fun for me and very much worth the $40 I paid as well. Was > it perfect? No, but to hear this daily crying you would think Simbin came > over to his house and gang banged his mother in front of him or something. > Mitch = Another happy victim! :)

"Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > And you know that the moderator spoke for Simbin? Again, still a bit much > to have this much venom about a game that was really pretty damn good. > There are many, many GTR leagues running right now with drivers from all > over the world playing. You just have to jump through some hoops to get > the multi working ok(I am not trying to sell the multi as great). > Yes, and on the other side of those hoops is still many the pile of shit waiting for you. I didn't pay for a "jump thru hoops" sim - I was after a racing sim and told that's what would be delivered. This forum is worthless without venom - you would deprive those not around back then of this info? I think you've forgotten the point of this place!

I would only say that if you want a sim without bugs then you exactly....none to choose from. I only speak up here because someone that doesn't have GTR and reads all of the stuff you say about it would never buy it and they would be missing the best sim of the year last year. Not perfect, but a hell of a lot of fun. I understand your perspective, just so you understand mine. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:434f4171$0$13320$[email hidden]...

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> > "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> And you know that the moderator spoke for Simbin? Again, still a bit >> much >> to have this much venom about a game that was really pretty damn good. >> There are many, many GTR leagues running right now with drivers from all >> over the world playing. You just have to jump through some hoops to get >> the multi working ok(I am not trying to sell the multi as great). >> > > Yes, and on the other side of those hoops is still many the pile of > shit > waiting for you. I didn't pay for a "jump thru hoops" sim - I was after a > racing sim and told that's what would be delivered. > > This forum is worthless without venom - you would deprive those not > around back then of this info? I think you've forgotten the point of this > place! > > >

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:53:16 +1000, "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:op.sygzrenq2umb9s@redmist... >> >> For those who shun fantasy tracks, I can tell you that 20 minutes into an >> online race, I really couldn't care less whether the track exists in real >> life or not. > > I think we need to modify our view here a bit more even - the tracks >that don't exist "irl" actually do exist "irl" - one's in the form of >aspalt, ect, the other in the form of pixels. Have a think about how idiotic >it is to limit yourself to real life tracks only - just nuts. > > The novelty value of things based on real life stuff is undoubted. But >there must be as much if not more novelty to being able to create a track >without the limitations of the available landscape, money or safety. > >

Indeed. The problem is that a lot of times "fantasy" tracks don't try hard enough to push the envelope (the ones included in base rFactor being a case in point). I hope someone will someday create something really long, be it Mille Miglia or just a 100 mile layout with wondrous scenery and intense curves out the wazoo that I can go and get lost on for a half an hour or so... [Thankfully I know BOTH the Targa Florio and the full Isle of Man are being created for GPL, and their release should coincide nicely with the advent of the '69 mod...] John DiFool

John DiFool wrote: > Indeed. The problem is that a lot of times "fantasy" tracks don't > try hard enough to push the envelope (the ones included in base > rFactor being a case in point). I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing, certainly for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a possible exception). Cheers Tony

>"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote > I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing, certainly > for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a possible > exception). I don't see how a track can be created for online racing in mind, except perhaps for the only reason to "dumb" out the track of any challenge so that everybody can race nearby. That's not racing. If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing online. No difference. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

ymenard wrote:

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>>"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote >>I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing, certainly >>for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a possible >>exception). > I don't see how a track can be created for online racing in mind, except > perhaps for the only reason to "dumb" out the track of any challenge so that > everybody can race nearby. That's not racing.

Then maybe it is simply easier to develop a computer generated track to make it race better than an asphalt one... There is also an element of peripheral vision deficiency that can be compensated for with the design of track. Plus lets not kid ourselves how accurate the real life track simulations are. The reality is that it may be impossible to overtake by lunging down the inside on the real track be it due to grip level, bump, or dirt getting thrown onto the surface, which can be achieved too easily on the simulated track. All this may add up to a different online representation than the real life track. Developing a track based on empirical evidence of online racing would not have these restrictions. > If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing online. No difference. Until we have tracks modelled to this level of detail the relationship between real tracks and simulated tracks will show a difference. Cheers Tony

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:rdd4f.7917$[email hidden]: > > If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing > online. No difference. > Well lets look at a track like VIR.(Virginia Int. Raceway) It is my absolute favorite DRIVING track. But racing is a royal pain. the long series of esses virtually ties the field into a long snake. While I love the thrill of getting the car through the esses quickly, it makes for very poor racing. Then there is Lime Rock Park, A wonderful track, but DEATH to openwheelers. I've read several posts about the online crashfests with the F3 mod at LRP. Both great tracks...but they can be lousy racers. dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote:

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>>If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing >>online. No difference. > Well lets look at a track like VIR.(Virginia Int. Raceway) It is my > absolute favorite DRIVING track. But racing is a royal pain. the long > series of esses virtually ties the field into a long snake. While I love > the thrill of getting the car through the esses quickly, it makes for very > poor racing. > Then there is Lime Rock Park, A wonderful track, but DEATH to > openwheelers. I've read several posts about the online crashfests with the > F3 mod at LRP. > Both great tracks...but they can be lousy racers. > > dave henrie

Dave, Frank's point was that real life tracks which are great for racing should be great for online racing too, rather than tracks that are great to drive should be great to race. In theory if a track has one line in real life it should have the same online. The debate was if there is any consideration for a track designer with online racing compared with real life racing, taking into account the subtle differences of spacial awareness. Blind spots may exist online which would not be the case in RL which can be removed in a fantasy track but would render a simulated RL track too inaccurate. At Toban GP it is possible to have a allow a car having got a tow up the straight to have the inside line into T1 knowing he is compromised for the esses and maybe nail him into the sharp right hander. There is just enough room to run side by side and the straight is just the right length that it is not a given that the slipstream alone is enough - the exit from the last turn and the speed through the esses have to be just right to make the pass stick. Certainly one of the best online experiences I have had. Maybe it is just luck or is it the result of some good development? Cheers Tony

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>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote >> If a track in real-life is good for racing, it's good for racing >> online. No difference. >> > > Well lets look at a track like VIR.(Virginia Int. Raceway) It is my > absolute favorite DRIVING track. But racing is a royal pain. the long > series of esses virtually ties the field into a long snake. While I love > the thrill of getting the car through the esses quickly, it makes for > very > poor racing.

That's why I wrote racing, not driving. If the track in real-life is excellent for racing, it'll be as good online, perhaps even more considering all the problematics that are eliminated by the passage from reality to simulation (although the years are slowly eliminating that gap) Driving tracks, yeah there's tons of them in NR2003. Great for hotlapping (Solitude) but I really wouldn't want to race them online. But I would in reality. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I would only say that if you want a sim without bugs then you >exactly....none to choose from. I only speak up here because someone that >doesn't have GTR and reads all of the stuff you say about it would never >buy it and they would be missing the best sim of the year last year. Not >perfect, but a hell of a lot of fun. I understand your perspective, just >so you understand mine. >

If you would recommend GTR to anyone with rfactor being available then you'd get a lot of complaints - rfactor has no bugs whatsoever. I had a few CTDs b4 I adjusted the settings properly and have not had a single glitch since the first week of it's release.

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:27:21 +1000, "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >>I would only say that if you want a sim without bugs then you >>exactly....none to choose from. I only speak up here because someone that >>doesn't have GTR and reads all of the stuff you say about it would never >>buy it and they would be missing the best sim of the year last year. Not >>perfect, but a hell of a lot of fun. I understand your perspective, just >>so you understand mine. >> > > If you would recommend GTR to anyone with rfactor being available then >you'd get a lot of complaints - rfactor has no bugs whatsoever. I had a few >CTDs b4 I adjusted the settings properly and have not had a single glitch >since the first week of it's release. > >

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=221264 rFactor looks like the last of the 2nd generation of games, which I arbitrarily define as GPL to the present. Reading some of the threads over at RSC I'm amazed at how ISI has to keep reinventing the wheel with regards to various issues and features. Then again I'm pretty burned out on sims, waiting for the next generation to kick in (if it ever does)...

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> GTR was great fun for me and very much worth the $40 I paid as well. > Was it > perfect? No, but to hear this daily crying you would think Simbin came > over > to his house and gang banged his mother in front of him or something. > > I'm much more PO'd that the N.America release of GTL isnt till next year > ;)

I was an admirer of Simbin well before the GT2002 mod release and I waited patiently for 6 months for GTR to appear after the German release. I was really excited about it after hearing Ian Bell talk about a massive multiplayer contest where the winner would walk away with a real life supercar. Every time I ventured online though, it was nothing but floating cars, cars on top of each other, speed bugs, discos, crash to desktops etc. - and that was on the official 10taccel servers ! Despite superb physics and graphics, I found it very difficult to get motivated to even play the game if I couldn't race anyone - what's the point of spending hours on a car setup just so you can race the AI at 106% ? - yippee-do-dah... After the release of every patch I tried the game online again and it was still nothing but disappointment. Then when they had that big countdown with hints that we'd all be able to race online, everyone once again got very excited - myself included. Some people even chose to buy the game at that point since they had confidence that Simbin was about to deliver but no, all we got was a half-assed web-based server browser and a dedicated server that didn't fix any bugs and in fact introduced the infamous 1fps bug. Compare that to rFactor which I was able to play within a few hours of its initial release and was able to have at least 5 online races on the first day without seeing any bugs. It's hardly surprising that online sim racers aren't overly eager to beta test GTL.

Mills Short - great infield section Toban Short - I love the winding uphill right left after the S/F straight, fighting car over to left for hard braking into the tight right hander, then being VERY careful on power application as the track drops away on exit. :) Orchard Lake - pretty straight forward but braking into T1 is always interesting - LOL. "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LEc4f.129840$[email hidden]...

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> John DiFool wrote: > >> Indeed. The problem is that a lot of times "fantasy" tracks don't >> try hard enough to push the envelope (the ones included in base >> rFactor being a case in point). > > I think the rFactor tracks are well designed for online racing, certainly > for the majority of cars provided (the Formulas being a possible > exception). > > Cheers > Tony