USA NFS-Shift guineau pigs required

Come on, the US release will be two days ahead of Europe's, so we're relying on someone to part with the cash and beta-test this for us next week. <Lord Kitchener>Your Newgroup Needs You!</Lord Kitchener> Early volunteers will get free access to the newsgroup for the next three months, two laser-scanned replies, and the opportunity to take part in the Pro Posting series alongside people who've written on real paper with real pens! Go on, you know you want to... even though I've cancelled my pre-order since the demo was abandoned and a flood of marketing hype washed away my initial hopes. There is still a spark of enthusiasm remaining somewhere in my cynical old sim-heart, but I'm buggered if I'm going to hand over any cash before some trustworthy opinions are posted. I am, however, quite happy to watch someone else gamble with their wages. :-> Andrew McP

> Come on, the US release will be two days ahead of Europe's, so we're relying on > someone to part with the cash and beta-test this for us next week. I plan on buying NFS Shift as soon as it shows up at the local retail stores (I live in the USA). Two days won't give me much time to find out much about the game though. Usually I wait for others to offer feedback about the cars, bugs, and quirks. The game includes Nordschleife, which I will report on as soon as I can. This will be the third game that has Nordschleife? (GPL, GTR Evolution, and now NFS Shift). If there is some type of career mode "strategy" where early choices are made with insufficient information from the game, I'll try to create a walkthrough as I've done with previous NFS games. Also I'm still using my twin joystick setup, so I won't be able to offer any opinions on the force feedback in the game. Lastly think of it this way. You get an entire racing game for the cost of 2 tracks in iRacing.

[email hidden] (jeffareid) wrote: > The game includes Nordschleife I must admit that this is a big draw. Any sim which takes the time to model the Ring must have its heart in the right place, surely? As for an in-depth review... I think most of us can tell a decently modelled sim within a few minutes of climbing into the cockpit by now. :-) Mind you, with joystick control you might have trouble getting a real feel for the driving model. I guess only time will tell. > You get an entire racing game for the cost of 2 tracks in iRacing. Given the financial incontinence I now suffer thanks to iRacing breaking down my resistance levels, I will probably crack anyway; no doubt ending up paying over the odds to download it from directtodrive.co.uk in a fit of impatience. But I like to pretend I still have some self-control. :-> Andrew McP

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> Come on, the US release will be two days ahead of Europe's, so we're > relying on someone to part with the cash and beta-test this for us next > week. > > <Lord Kitchener>Your Newgroup Needs You!</Lord Kitchener> > > Early volunteers will get free access to the newsgroup for the next > three months, two laser-scanned replies, and the opportunity to take > part in the Pro Posting series alongside people who've written on real > paper with real pens! > > Go on, you know you want to... even though I've cancelled my pre-order > since the demo was abandoned and a flood of marketing hype washed away > my initial hopes. > > There is still a spark of enthusiasm remaining somewhere in my cynical > old sim-heart, but I'm buggered if I'm going to hand over any cash > before some trustworthy opinions are posted. I am, however, quite happy > to watch someone else gamble with their wages. :-> >

Well the last NFS I played was Porsche Unleashed/2000. By then I recognized their business model: *great* graphics, good sound and *just* enough reality to keep the hard core gamers interested. Then next game a *bit* more reality to keep them coming back. Repeated endlessly.

> As for an in-depth review IGN did a review, 9.0 out of 10, but noted that the same wasn't sim-oriented http://ps3.ign.com/articles/102/1023568p1.html > Well the last NFS I played was Porsche Unleashed/2000. > their business model: *great* graphics, good sound and *just* > enough reality to keep the hard core gamers interested. Then > next game a *bit* more reality to keep them coming back. The reality goes up and down from game to game. In Porsche Unleashed, the 911 turbos could pull 3 g's in turns. How far overboard this was is more obvious from an external view: http://rcgldr.net/nfs5/n5cswz.wmv NFS2 in simulation mode was reasonably realistic with it's long braking zones. NFS8 - Underground 2 is the only NFS game where throttle induced oversteer and spins can occur. You can bounce off walls rather than slow down, otherwise another one of the more realistic NFS games. The recent games: NFS9-10 - Most Wanted - Carbon - over the top power and grip, but not that much more than an NFS5 type game. NFS11 - ProStreet - Power and grip of the top cars far exceed anything resembling a car. NFS12 - Undercover - Even more power and grip with the top cars. More like a swoop racing game than a car racing game. NFS - Shift - Power and grip reduced back to near realisic levels. NFS - World Online - haven't heard what's going on with this game based on combining cars and tracks from Most Wanted and Carbon.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 03:01:23 +0000 (UTC), APLer <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well the last NFS I played was Porsche Unleashed/2000. By then I >recognized their business model: *great* graphics, good sound and *just* >enough reality to keep the hard core gamers interested. Then next game a >*bit* more reality to keep them coming back. Repeated endlessly. > * Physics model of NFS: Shift is based on those of “Ferrari Project” * Professional setting is more accurate to drive than in GTR2 * Eero Piitulainen of Richard Burns Rally has developed totally new tyre-physics model which is mainly responsible for new physics * Difference between 3 physics-models is in assist levels, while lowest setting will provide around 10% of more tyre grip for beginners * Lots of efforts has gone into handling development so the game can be driven with controller * Professional setting will require wheel in order to successfully manage throttle/braking and steering inputs * Shift will feature different car classes - from Golf GTI up to Zonda F * All cars can be upgraded and tuned from inside-out * Most tracks are licensed European and American circuits with few non-existing tracks * There will be few city-circuits * Cockpit is the most important visual feature of the game * Head-physics is the key difference point to other titles http://www.virtualr.net/need-for-speed-shift-new-details-revealed/

> * Head-physics is the key difference point to other titles Although there's no cockpit view, an old (2003) budget game, Ford Racing 2, had a good implemenation of head movement, or at least car movement. The horizon tilts in response to corners, and you can see suspension reaction in the view. http://rcgldr.net/fr2/fr2stk.wmv http://rcgldr.net/fr2/fr2mst.wmv

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > There is still a spark of enthusiasm remaining somewhere > in my cynical old sim-heart, but I'm buggered if I'm going > to hand over any cash before some trustworthy opinions are posted. Actually I just renewed my pre-order. I may end up disappointed, but I've been liking some of the fairly balanced reviews coming out. I'm not expecting miracles, but as the post-iRacing tension steadily eases from my system, I'm ready for some good old fashioned fun. Besides, how can any sim enthusiast fail to buy a product which has the 'Ring in it? I'll be straight there as soon as someone posts a crack for all that career structure bollox. :-) Andrew McP

> beta-test Not really sure yet. I use two joysticks for gaming, left is throttle and brake, right is steer, similar to "classic" style radio control transmitters. These are not force feedback controllers. I turned off motion blur, but I'm still getting some of those effects. I turned off steering assists, but I still see steering inputs that that don't match mine, but it's difficult to tell if the car is being affected by those in car view steering movements. I used a generic trainer to boost my cash to 10,000,000 at the start of the game. Started with the 350z and did all the upgrades (stage 1 at the start) that I could. The car ends up overpowered, spinning the tires even with traction control set to low (didn't try high). I'm not sure which fully upgraded cars will end up being the fastest. Will need to wait for feedback from online players in the near future to get this sorted out. At this point all I can do is offer this replay I made of the first event that uses Nordschleife, only in this case it's just a part of that track, using a Lotus Elise in an "invitational event" where you run a fixed setup car. I got as close as I could to the lead car at the start so you can see the "blur" effect on other cars at speed. I haven't figured out how to turn this off. http://rcgldr.net/nfss/nsnrdlte.wmv

[email hidden] (jeffareid) wrote: > http://rcgldr.net/nfss/nsnrdlte.wmv Thanks Jeff. When I read your post my gut reaction said cancel the pre-order. When I saw your movie I decided I have to have this whether it turns out to be a turkey or not. It looks amazing... except, as you say, for that blur. On other cars at speed it is absolutely *horrible*, and I'm not convinced about it anywhere else either. When I glance down at the instruments of in the mirrors (as I frequently do) I don't want to be thinking WTF? Maybe you get used to it in time, but I suspect it'll always be more of a distraction than an aid... ie encouraging you to focus on the track ahead. I suppose in a way it duplicates the real world effects of extreme vibration, but... I dunno. Anyway, thanks for the report and especially for the movie. It's definitely the best movie from Shift that I've seen. Andrew McP

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > When I saw your movie I decided I have to have this whether > it turns out to be a turkey or not. There's some very different views being posted on http://www.virtualr.net/ Some seem to love it, lots seem to hate it. If I had any sense I'd cancel and wait for the dust to settle. But the 'Ring does look amazing... apart, obviously, from the silly advertising banners. Andrew McP

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:34 +0100 (BST), [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote:

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>[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > >> When I saw your movie I decided I have to have this whether >> it turns out to be a turkey or not. > >There's some very different views being posted on http://www.virtualr.net/ > >Some seem to love it, lots seem to hate it. If I had any sense I'd cancel and wait >for the dust to settle. But the 'Ring does look amazing... apart, obviously, from >the silly advertising banners.

It indeed looks great! But those AI cars.... The thing I liked about GPL was the fact I had to improve to beat the AI. I don't like those games where you adjust the speed of the AI to your own skill, taking away the challenge. (And I really hate those games where the AI slows down so you can keep up). Cheers! Remco

no@email (Remco Moedt) wrote: > It indeed looks great! Yes, but I just lost my nerve and tried to cancel... too many people (including those playing the pirate PC version) are reporting disappointment. While it's always important to take first impressions with a pinch of salt, there are too many people saying negative things to make me comfortable. At least one patch may be required to make this worth buying. However my credit card has already been charged this morning. Too late! :-/ Oh well, it's only costing me a few pounds more than the WRS alpha, so I can hardly complain. If nothing else it will be a very pretty distraction when I get a bad attack of iRacing withdrawal. :-) Andrew McP

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> no@email (Remco Moedt) wrote: > >> It indeed looks great! > > Yes, but I just lost my nerve and tried to cancel... too many people > (including > those playing the pirate PC version) are reporting disappointment. While > it's > always important to take first impressions with a pinch of salt, there are > too many > people saying negative things to make me comfortable. At least one patch > may be > required to make this worth buying. > > However my credit card has already been charged this morning. Too late! > :-/ > > Oh well, it's only costing me a few pounds more than the WRS alpha, so I > can hardly > complain. If nothing else it will be a very pretty distraction when I get > a bad > attack of iRacing withdrawal. :-) > > Andrew McP

For all the money spent on all these multiple other titles you could just run iRacing. I gave up on buying the "console racing title of the week" for that reason, $60 a pop for a game that usually disappoints.

[email hidden] (schooner) wrote: > For all the money spent on all these multiple other titles you > could just run iRacing. In the end it's not money (and never was really) which keeps me out of iRacing, it's the non-stop seriousness of it all (ignoring the cash-generating, one-size-fits-all, weekly fun races). I enjoy that for a while, but it always ends up feeling like work after a few weeks. And I really, *really* do get bugged by a significant proportion of the iRacing community. I know I could ignore them, but watching the RSC forum helps remind me I'm not really an iRacing kind of guy. :-) I still love the core sim, I just dislike the service and many of the attitudes it encourages. That hasn't changed... though the service is, slowly, becoming less regimented and more flexible. At this rate it may even be in a format I can really enjoy properly within, what, three years? :-) I don't plan on returning for another month until the start of next season. I hope there will be a few rich guys around prepared to host some short races in the Lotus79 and/or IndyCars. The proper races will always be too long for my comfort (I have no sponsorship to flash across TV screens for an hour or more ;-) but in theory the mix of oval and road races ought to be right up my street. Anyway, as I said, it's not about money. I run sims instead of a real car, and even iRacing is a lot cheaper than a real vehicle. So I'm happy to do a little experimenting as I look for something to try and supply the thrill the Skip Barber gives me, without the hair shirt iRacing makes me wear in order to drive it. Andrew McP... still loving, and still hating iRacing :-)

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (schooner) wrote: > >> For all the money spent on all these multiple other titles you >> could just run iRacing. > > In the end it's not money (and never was really) which keeps me out of > iRacing, > it's the non-stop seriousness of it all (ignoring the cash-generating, > one-size-fits-all, weekly fun races). I enjoy that for a while, but it > always ends > up feeling like work after a few weeks. And I really, *really* do get > bugged by a > significant proportion of the iRacing community. I know I could ignore > them, but > watching the RSC forum helps remind me I'm not really an iRacing kind of > guy. :-) > > I still love the core sim, I just dislike the service and many of the > attitudes it > encourages. That hasn't changed... though the service is, slowly, becoming > less > regimented and more flexible. At this rate it may even be in a format I > can really > enjoy properly within, what, three years? :-) > > I don't plan on returning for another month until the start of next > season. I hope > there will be a few rich guys around prepared to host some short races in > the > Lotus79 and/or IndyCars. The proper races will always be too long for my > comfort (I > have no sponsorship to flash across TV screens for an hour or more ;-) but > in > theory the mix of oval and road races ought to be right up my street. > > Anyway, as I said, it's not about money. I run sims instead of a real car, > and even > iRacing is a lot cheaper than a real vehicle. So I'm happy to do a little > experimenting as I look for something to try and supply the thrill the > Skip Barber > gives me, without the hair shirt iRacing makes me wear in order to drive > it. > > Andrew McP... still loving, and still hating iRacing :-)

Ah well there are lots of iRacing haters for various reasons, same can be said for any sime or game. If you hate it then I would just move on, just found it odd you mention iRacing in almsot every post so figured you were still interested in it. I personally can't be bothered wasting money and time tryign a different sim every month, I'd sooner stick with one and work within it as it grows, but to each their own, everyone wants different things out of it.

[email hidden] (schooner) wrote: > I personally can't be bothered wasting money and time tryign a > different sim every month Neither can I. :-) After GPL split into lots of mods, and other sims came along to spoil the 1967 party, I slowly fell out of love with simming. I bought a lot of sims, but never settled into any of them. At least iRacing got me interested again, so I'm grateful for that. But I suspect that this may be my inner child's last attempt to get back into simming. Part of me is very tempted to sell the gaming rig & G25 and forget gaming altogether. But it's hard to do that when I know I enjoy iRacing, yet can't live (for long) with its inflexibility.... or the stream of tempting distractions they keep adding to dilute the (admittedly growing) user pool. All the more reason to walk away for good really, but some people just don't know when they're beaten. I will no doubt still be here in two year's time having the same, tediously repetitive thoughts. Still, it's cheaper than therapy. ;-) Andrew McP

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:19 +0100 (BST), [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: >Come on, the US release will be two days ahead of Europe's, so we're relying on >someone to part with the cash and beta-test this for us next week. I just played it for a couple of hours and Shift has a lot of pros and cons. - The menu navigation SUCKS, no mouse support, to switch between racing series you have to press.. 8. Makes no sense at all. - Loading is irritating. In the first 2 series (haven't unlocked the 3rd and 4th series) the races are very short, 2 or 3 laps, so I spent a lot of time looking at the loading screens. - AI SUUUUUUUUUCKS On the other hand.. - Engine sounds are bloody amazing. In fact, best ones I ever heard in a sim. - Driving model is fantastic. When I first got on in the S2000 in Brands.. sliding all over the place while keeping in control, fantastic. - Sense of speed is perfect. I love the blurry effect. At high speed the road remains sharp while the dashboard becomes blurry and is shaking all over the place. For me it works, totally immersive. NFS Shift is a strange combination. A sim with a GTR-like driving model combined with the very arcade NFS experience. Earning stickers, badges doesn't really do it for me. I do hope that Shift will bring the experience of simracing to a big crowd but I'm affraid it's gonna be a huge commercial failure, expecially when I read the general comments on gaming forums, where people are complaining that there are no police chases in Shift. I don't think Shift will last 5 years like GPL did for me, but hell, I'm having great fun with it while it lasts. Let's hope the online community will keep Shift interesting in the long run. Andre - Damn, been a long time since I posted here ;)

(Andre Warringa) wrote: > - The menu navigation SUCKS, no mouse support I read that elsewhere and nearly blew a fuse. It really is inexcusable. I suspect they ran out of time to finish the PC version off and left 'optional' stuff like this until last. > - Loading is irritating. With graphics which looks that good, this is perhaps not surprising. but it's still annoying in any game/sim. > - AI SUUUUUUUUUCKS That's another real problem. I like LFS, but stopped running it because the AI bugs the cr*p out of me. > - Engine sounds are bloody amazing. GTR2 still sounds superb, so it's nice to see that they didn't forget how important this is for immersion... and grin-factor. :-) The WRS demo I've been pointing people at has a pretty impressive engine sound. > - Driving model is fantastic. Ok, that's the only thing which really matters. I feel less like cutting my wrists now. ;-) > - Sense of speed is perfect. I love the blurry effect. Interesting. Watching a movie is different to actually doing the driving, so I will be interested to see if I find it as annoying as I thought I would. > NFS Shift is a strange combination. A sim with a GTR-like driving > model combined with the very arcade NFS experience. Hopefully the PC version will be hackable to open it up in some way, avoiding the career/badge stuff. > I do hope that Shift will bring the experience of simracing > to a big crowd but I'm affraid it's gonna be a huge commercial > failure, expecially when I read the general comments on gaming forums Yes, it is a concern that they may have over-estimated the appetite for a more serious 'flavour' to the NFS brand. I did a lot of reading yesterday and it was hard to find much to be optimistic about. Only time will tell if EA stick with this experiment. Thanks for the report Andre. I appreciate it. Andrew McP

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > There is still a spark of enthusiasm remaining somewhere in my > cynical old sim-heart Especially after watching this... http://vimeo.com/6606607 ...which I found on the LFS forums. Put the movie into fullscreen and just watch and listen. Even if it's not a perfect sim, it's hard not to smile when seeing some of these movies. Andrew McP

Another video, duel view, Zonda R at Willow Springs: http://rcgldr.net/nfss/nswszrd.wmv

Ok, time for my first impressions. I could have posted them yesterday, but I didn't realise it had landed in my letterbox a day early. If I had to sum up my initial experiences so far in one sentence it would be... believe everything you've read, both good and bad. There are console and design decisions which will make you want to eat your shirt in frustration. For example during your first race (part of the setting up process) you cannot quit. At all. Ever. I hadn't turned on my wheel so after a little messing about with the keyboard I parked and tried to escape. Couldn't. Waited for the race to end. It didn't. Went off for a shower, came back... and the race was still waiting for me to do my laps. Had to CTRL-ALT-DEL that session. Not a good start! Blah, blah, blah... movie bollox again, game bollox again, yes, come on, get on with it... yes, there we are. Menu screens, set up the G25 as posted on one of the forums, buy a Toyota Corolla with my tiny pool of money I earned coming last in the first race (some things never change), then head for a quick time trial at The Ring. And... Mmm... first impression is that the steering is just wrong. Something's definitely not right. Maybe the hands on the virtual wheel lag the actual car input. If I ignore them and look ahead totally, I feel less disorientated. I have yet to work out what the issue is here. It's not diabolical, but there is something not quite right about it. Visually, it's not as initially impressive as I'd hoped, but the more you drive the more immersed you get. I even found the blurring *far* less of a problem than I'd expected. Heck, I may even like it... a little. :-) It only affects you at high speeds and then you really are mainly staring wildly out of the windscreen, not checking your instruments. So as an immersive technique it seems to work better than expected. I've now had three laps of The Ring. Second lap was in a BMW something-or-other, and the third was with about 80k's worth of add-ons, which made the car handle much more like a sim vehicle. Less sudden sideways action, more correctability. But still that sense that there's something not quite right with the steering. I obviously need to take the recommended settings and do some experimenting. Not now though, I have a chilli to make and some washing-up to do. Extra hot jalapenos anyone? Andrew McP PS Overall verdict so far: I don't regret buying it. There is a very good simulated racing experience buried in here trying to get out. If we can peel away the movies and annoying game elements, and solve control niggles, I think we may find there's more here than meets the eye. On the other hand, it took me far less time in the WRS demo to find a big grin on my face. But then it doesn't have the best rendition of The Ring so far brought to the PC, or anyone to race against... which reminds me, I find the Shift AI pretty impressive so far. So far they make human-style mistakes. PPS Load times aren't as bad as reported by many IMO.

> Mmm... first impression is that the steering is just wrong. The in car steering wheel doesn't seem to follow your steering inputs. I'm not sure if there's a delay, but it's just off. Doesn't seem to affect the cars though. The cars have a large number of physics paramters, so much so that each car in NFS Shift is like a different game. You'll run into this once you start running the different cars. Some of the cars can be upgraded to factory "works" level (removes the nitrous), and my guess is more attention was made to those cars to make them more realistic. After upgrades, some of the cars end up traction limited, tires will spin in gears 1 through 4, so you end up running a taller gear or turning on traction control. Another issue is that some cars, like the Camaro SS bumped up to works level, are bouncy. Setting the fast rebound rates to max stiff cured most of this. I now set all the cars that way. Yet another issue is that some cars get into an oscillation mode that is like a speed wobble. Easing off the throttle and not moving the steering wheel seems to help, but mostly you have to avoid it. > blur ... It only affects you at high speeds It's just annoying to me, I'm not looking there anyway, so why bother? I turned motion blur off, but it still happens. > something not quite right with the steering. Each car is different. As mentioned above, each car is like a different game. Some seem to be flawed. > PPS Load times aren't as bad as reported by many IMO. Seems like a long time to me. It's over 30 seconds for a race to load up on my system. I remove my headphones so I don't have to hear that same loading background music. It really slows things down, and the career mode is very time consuming if you plan to get every "star". I just completed tier 2 and the invitational events, and the stats show 90 wins and 410 stars. Where the load up time is really annoying is when you try to adjust a setup. You're waiting almost a minute for each change, not including driving time.

[email hidden] (jeffareid) wrote: > The in car steering wheel doesn't seem to follow your > steering inputs. I'm sure you're right. The mismatch between what you see and what happens may be the problem. > The cars have a large number of physics paramters, so much so that > each car in NFS Shift is like a different game. Yes. Hopefully someone will draw up a short list of vehicles & upgrades to avoid soon to save time and effort. :-) > Seems like a long time to me. I'm sure there are some issues with load times which a patch will be able to tweak (along with the reported ATI issues). But I'm used to flight sims like LOMAC, where you could go away and make a cup of tea, walk the dog, meet someone you liked, get married, have three children, and still have time to read War & Peace before you were flying. So I'm not too bothered by the delays at this stage. Andrew McP

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > Mmm... first impression is that the steering is just wrong. http://www.needforspeed.com/web/nfs-na/blogs/need-for-speed-news/-/nfsblogs/116565?a uthorId=13007 The offending setting turns out to be 'Wheel lock' which was at 100%, but should be at 50% for wheels. This makes a lot of difference to the feel. I'm not going to claim it turns it into a perfect sim, but it does remove one of the obstacles to enjoyment. I am, however, getting tired of the little cut scenes before each race. In other sims you can hit a key and skip them, but not here. And while I'm still trying to work out which L lens the grid photographer is using, I'd prefer it if he and the grid babes were an optional extra. I also think the AI are learning to drive just as badly as me. I swear they started off driving pretty sensibly, but now they've turned into monsters. It reminds me of many of the Rookie Legends races I've had! :-) Andrew McP

Andrew MacPherson wrote:

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> [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > >> Mmm... first impression is that the steering is just wrong. > > http://www.needforspeed.com/web/nfs-na/blogs/need-for-speed-news/-/nfsblogs/116565?a > uthorId=13007 > > The offending setting turns out to be 'Wheel lock' which was at 100%, but should be > at 50% for wheels. This makes a lot of difference to the feel. > > I'm not going to claim it turns it into a perfect sim, but it does remove one of > the obstacles to enjoyment. > > I am, however, getting tired of the little cut scenes before each race. In other > sims you can hit a key and skip them, but not here. And while I'm still trying to

That's the reason I deinstalled the demo. I setup my wheel, entered the race and realized that I forgot to setup the steering (!). So I just wanted to fix that and had to watch a frikkin commercial I couldn't skip. That really didn't work in the way they thought... ;) No sale, buttheads! And hearing about those stupid forced cut scenes in the final game, that decision is reinforced, regardless of the rest of the "game".... arcade game, that is! l8er ronny