GTL - StarForce Issues?

Now I definitely don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to get some 'informed' details on the StarForce copy protection system that resides on the GT Legends sim. I have just recently returned to motor racing sims on the PC, after a 3 year hiatus. I have purchased GTL and RBR due to the rave reviews on RAS. I am a little tentative about installing GTL on my new PC due to the 'heated discussions' that persist on RAS about this controversial CP system. What are the exact issues that some people seem to have with games with StarForce? Approximately what percentage of people are having these problems? I get the impression that SF can cause some hardware problems?? How can software cause problems with hardware? I truly hope this doesn't start more flaming in this newsgroup. I just wish to understand the risks involved in installing (and playing) GTL. TIA. -- RocketMan

Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info: 1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the system that could potentially be exploited by malicious software. This has been noted with multiple copy protection/DRM packages. So far no-one has demonstrated or seen an exploit 'in the wild' AFAIK, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Note that this is different from the poorly-written Sony rookit. The Sony DRM package created a *huge* security hole by creating a directory that was completely hidden from normal system operations. A malicious program could drop files in the same dir and there would be almost no way to detect it. The Sony rookit also created a device chain that could bluscreen your PC if the DRM driver was disabled. 2) Dead DVD writers. This appears to be the most common complaint. How truly frequent this occurs is unknown (some fraction is probably conicidental normal hardware failure), but some reasonably respected netizens have posted that they have had DVD writers crap out after loading SF-protected games. The problem is partly Microsoft's - what appears to be the problem is the "auto-stepdown" function of IDE drivers in WinXP. What happens is WinXP will automatically slow down drive access as it encounters read errors on IDE devices, starting with the Ultra-DMA modes, slowing all the way down to PIO modes. IMHO this was one of those stupid "Microsoft knows better than you" decisions - the OS never reports an error to the user or allows the behavior to be changed (although XP SP2 apparently slows the step-down counter so it is less likely to occur). I have personally experienced this in the early days of XP (not related to Starforce). What seems to kill some DVD writers is they are not designed to operate in PIO modes, and the step down to PIO permanently damages the drives. Starforce was stupid here in that they could have written the virtual driver as a SCSI device (like Alcohol 120%'s drives) and avoided this problem completely. 3) Starforce's business practices - Instead of recognizing there might be a problem and trying to get info from users to fix it, they called anyone who reported problems hackers/pirates/script kiddies. They setup a ridiculous contest where they would pay anyone $10000 who could come to Russia (on thier own dime) and reproduce the problem on Starforce's own hardware. When nobody took them up on such a stupid offer they proclaimed that it meant there was no problem. They have also done such nasty things as posting links on thier own forums to pirated software (Gal Civ II, I think). Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC. 3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business, but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the publishers. Hope I got all that right! Kendt

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post > links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info: > > 1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears > like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the ( Snip a bunch of good stuff)

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> Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use > for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC. > 3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business, > but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my > nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the > developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the > publishers. > > Hope I got all that right! > Kendt

This has to one of the most reasoned and informed postings on this all too inflammatory subject that I have seen on RAS. It pretty much sums up the problem nicely Bravo Dave

Thanks very much for the info. This may be a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway! Is there the possibility that SF will affect (damage?) all DVD drives in the PC, or just the drive that it is installed from? My PC has two DVD burners - one for general use (the DVD drive I wanted was out of stock, and the DVD burner was only $20 more), and one dedicated to DVD burning. Is it possible that if I have any problems it will only affect the DVD burner I use for installing programs? If I am forced to replace a damaged DVD drive, will StarForce also damage the replacement? Will SF have any effect on my burning software, i.e. stop it from working? Apologies if these are stupid questions. Thanks again. -- RocketMan "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post > links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info: > > 1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears > like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the > system that could potentially be exploited by malicious software. This > has been noted with multiple copy protection/DRM packages. So far > no-one has demonstrated or seen an exploit 'in the wild' AFAIK, but > that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Note that this is different from > the poorly-written Sony rookit. The Sony DRM package created a *huge* > security hole by creating a directory that was completely hidden from > normal system operations. A malicious program could drop files in the > same dir and there would be almost no way to detect it. The Sony > rookit also created a device chain that could bluscreen your PC if the > DRM driver was disabled. > > 2) Dead DVD writers. This appears to be the most common complaint. > How truly frequent this occurs is unknown (some fraction is probably > conicidental normal hardware failure), but some reasonably respected > netizens have posted that they have had DVD writers crap out after > loading SF-protected games. The problem is partly Microsoft's - what > appears to be the problem is the "auto-stepdown" function of IDE > drivers in WinXP. What happens is WinXP will automatically slow down > drive access as it encounters read errors on IDE devices, starting with > the Ultra-DMA modes, slowing all the way down to PIO modes. IMHO this > was one of those stupid "Microsoft knows better than you" decisions - > the OS never reports an error to the user or allows the behavior to be > changed (although XP SP2 apparently slows the step-down counter so it > is less likely to occur). I have personally experienced this in the > early days of XP (not related to Starforce). What seems to kill some > DVD writers is they are not designed to operate in PIO modes, and the > step down to PIO permanently damages the drives. Starforce was stupid > here in that they could have written the virtual driver as a SCSI > device (like Alcohol 120%'s drives) and avoided this problem > completely. > > 3) Starforce's business practices - Instead of recognizing there might > be a problem and trying to get info from users to fix it, they called > anyone who reported problems hackers/pirates/script kiddies. They > setup a ridiculous contest where they would pay anyone $10000 who could > come to Russia (on thier own dime) and reproduce the problem on > Starforce's own hardware. When nobody took them up on such a stupid > offer they proclaimed that it meant there was no problem. They have > also done such nasty things as posting links on thier own forums to > pirated software (Gal Civ II, I think). > > Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use > for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC. > 3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business, > but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my > nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the > developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the > publishers. > > Hope I got all that right! > Kendt >

I would think that it only affects the drive used to install the game, and where it reads the DVD during the initial disk check (this is where the problem occurs when StarForce is checking the presence of the disk). So do the install from the disposable DVD drive ;). Kendt

Reportedly the drives that died were DVD ***Burners**** , RIGHT???? I mean I hadn't read any DVD player only drives dying? the drives are cheap and easy, hell before I got GTL (meaning before I had starforce) I lost 2 CD drives in one year, (only raced Papy games and some MS games). "RocketMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:e2sjts$of5$[email hidden]...

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> Thanks very much for the info. > This may be a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway! Is there the > possibility that SF will affect (damage?) all DVD drives in the PC, or > just the drive that it is installed from? My PC has two DVD burners - one > for general use (the DVD drive I wanted was out of stock, and the DVD > burner was only $20 more), and one dedicated to DVD burning. Is it > possible that if I have any problems it will only affect the DVD burner I > use for installing programs? > If I am forced to replace a damaged DVD drive, will StarForce also damage > the replacement? > Will SF have any effect on my burning software, i.e. stop it from > working? > Apologies if these are stupid questions. > Thanks again. > > -- > > RocketMan > "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Here's what I understand about the issue - I'll be lazy and not post >> links, but any google search on starforce should yield tons of info: >> >> 1) Ring 0 access - because Starforce uses a system driver that appears >> like an IDE disk driver, it runs at a highly priviledged level in the >> system that could potentially be exploited by malicious software. This >> has been noted with multiple copy protection/DRM packages. So far >> no-one has demonstrated or seen an exploit 'in the wild' AFAIK, but >> that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Note that this is different from >> the poorly-written Sony rookit. The Sony DRM package created a *huge* >> security hole by creating a directory that was completely hidden from >> normal system operations. A malicious program could drop files in the >> same dir and there would be almost no way to detect it. The Sony >> rookit also created a device chain that could bluscreen your PC if the >> DRM driver was disabled. >> >> 2) Dead DVD writers. This appears to be the most common complaint. >> How truly frequent this occurs is unknown (some fraction is probably >> conicidental normal hardware failure), but some reasonably respected >> netizens have posted that they have had DVD writers crap out after >> loading SF-protected games. The problem is partly Microsoft's - what >> appears to be the problem is the "auto-stepdown" function of IDE >> drivers in WinXP. What happens is WinXP will automatically slow down >> drive access as it encounters read errors on IDE devices, starting with >> the Ultra-DMA modes, slowing all the way down to PIO modes. IMHO this >> was one of those stupid "Microsoft knows better than you" decisions - >> the OS never reports an error to the user or allows the behavior to be >> changed (although XP SP2 apparently slows the step-down counter so it >> is less likely to occur). I have personally experienced this in the >> early days of XP (not related to Starforce). What seems to kill some >> DVD writers is they are not designed to operate in PIO modes, and the >> step down to PIO permanently damages the drives. Starforce was stupid >> here in that they could have written the virtual driver as a SCSI >> device (like Alcohol 120%'s drives) and avoided this problem >> completely. >> >> 3) Starforce's business practices - Instead of recognizing there might >> be a problem and trying to get info from users to fix it, they called >> anyone who reported problems hackers/pirates/script kiddies. They >> setup a ridiculous contest where they would pay anyone $10000 who could >> come to Russia (on thier own dime) and reproduce the problem on >> Starforce's own hardware. When nobody took them up on such a stupid >> offer they proclaimed that it meant there was no problem. They have >> also done such nasty things as posting links on thier own forums to >> pirated software (Gal Civ II, I think). >> >> Myself - I avoid 1+2 by having a dedicated gaming PC that I do not use >> for regular internet browsing, nor do I do my DVD burning on this PC. >> 3 is a matter of personal decision. I abhor the way they do business, >> but support Simbin and thier work for the sim market enough to hold my >> nose and enjoy the hell out of GTR and GTL. I don't think the >> developers make those decisions - that's more in the hands of the >> publishers. >> >> Hope I got all that right! >> Kendt >> > >

I installed GTL, and immediently encounterd a BSOD (Blue screen crash). I was able to get around this by installing a patch from the Internet. No production software should have such a major bug as to consistantly and immediately introduce a BSOD. Turning rant mode off, my system has been fine since I patched it. Tim

I honestly think Starforce is on it's last leg. Even the manufacturers are bitching about it :) This has GOT to be increasing their support calls in a major way. -Larry "Tim Epstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QmH4g.61314$[email hidden]...

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>I installed GTL, and immediently encounterd a BSOD (Blue screen crash). I >was able to get around this by installing a patch from the Internet. > > No production software should have such a major bug as to consistantly and > immediately introduce a BSOD. Turning rant mode off, my system has been > fine since I patched it. > > Tim > >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:lMs5g.38755$_z2.7508@dukeread02:

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> I honestly think Starforce is on it's last leg. Even the > manufacturers are bitching about it :) > > This has GOT to be increasing their support calls in a major way. > > -Larry >

Does this sound like a Starforce issue? : I have had GTR on since it's USA release and it's fully patched. I also have a DVD recorder that uses Nero Software. Nero worked fine in the past. But after not using it for some time, I have recently tried to back up all my rFactor tracks and run into some complications. If I use the Nero StartSmart icon, my system goes into some sort of shutdown, IMMEADIATELY. The system leds are still lit but the screen goes black and in a very short time the monitor shuts down. No set of key presses that I have tried can break this odd lockup. I have to hit the Reset or Power Off button on the box to reboot and reload windows(SP Pro SP2) If I choose the start menu for the Nero SmartStart program(kinda like a Nero menu system for all the various Nero utilities) that too will STOP My system cold. And another reboot. However, if I choose an individual Nero program like Nero Express, THEN and ONLY THEN can I run the program and burn a data disc. Starforce? or just a klutzed up system? dave henrie

I guess it's possible, but I'm really not sure. I've avoided the issue by avoiding the publishers that use it. There is a TON of info that's googleable though. -Larry "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:lMs5g.38755$_z2.7508@dukeread02: > Does this sound like a Starforce issue? : > > I have had GTR on since it's USA release and it's fully patched. I also > have a DVD recorder that uses Nero Software. Nero worked fine in the > past. > But after not using it for some time, I have recently tried to back up > all > my rFactor tracks and run into some complications. If I use the Nero > StartSmart icon, my system goes into some sort of shutdown, IMMEADIATELY. > The system leds are still lit but the screen goes black and in a very > short > time the monitor shuts down. No set of key presses that I have tried can > break this odd lockup. > I have to hit the Reset or Power Off button on the box to reboot and > reload windows(SP Pro SP2) If I choose the start menu for the Nero > SmartStart program(kinda like a Nero menu system for all the various Nero > utilities) that too will STOP My system cold. And another reboot. > However, if I choose an individual Nero program like Nero Express, THEN > and ONLY THEN can I run the program and burn a data disc. > > Starforce? or just a klutzed up system? > > dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> Does this sound like a Starforce issue? : > > I have had GTR on since it's USA release and it's fully patched. I also > have a DVD recorder that uses Nero Software. Nero worked fine in the past. > But after not using it for some time, I have recently tried to back up all > my rFactor tracks and run into some complications. If I use the Nero > StartSmart icon, my system goes into some sort of shutdown, IMMEADIATELY. > The system leds are still lit but the screen goes black and in a very short > time the monitor shuts down. No set of key presses that I have tried can > break this odd lockup. > I have to hit the Reset or Power Off button on the box to reboot and > reload windows(SP Pro SP2) If I choose the start menu for the Nero > SmartStart program(kinda like a Nero menu system for all the various Nero > utilities) that too will STOP My system cold. And another reboot. > However, if I choose an individual Nero program like Nero Express, THEN > and ONLY THEN can I run the program and burn a data disc. > > Starforce? or just a klutzed up system?

Certainly seems in line with issues raised. There is a dilemma for users mixing games and sims with media tasks that Starforce can cause issues with DVD burning it seems. The answer may be to have multiple partitions but this is a bit of a pain. I am fortunate that my racing machine is physically a different box than my general utility PC, but that is hardly an answer. A great shame when some of the best sims use this. Personally I have never had an issue, even when I did have a starforce protected game on my main machine, but that doesn't mean it doesn't - all the symptoms sound right for it to be a starforce issue unfortunately Dave. Cheers Tony

The karge majority of people have no problems. The majority of people with problems have fixed them by removing the game. The possibility of actual damage is, I believe, small.

Many people have bought GTL. Most have no problems. Some people take Starforce as a personal insult and get quite exercised about it. I wouldn't pass up a great sim because a few people scream about Starforce. In fact, I didn't. No problems here.

My choice is to not buy any game with StarForce in it. I actually research it before buying. It's my decision. The publishers can care or not care that they lose a customer. I WOULD have bought GTL by now if it weren't for StarForce. -Larry "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Many people have bought GTL. Most have no problems. Some people take > Starforce as a personal insult and get quite exercised about it. I > wouldn't pass up a great sim because a few people scream about > Starforce. In fact, I didn't. No problems here. >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:AB36g.39523$_z2.6266@dukeread02:

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> My choice is to not buy any game with StarForce in it. I actually > research it before buying. > > It's my decision. The publishers can care or not care that they lose > a customer. > > I WOULD have bought GTL by now if it weren't for StarForce. > > -Larry > > "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Many people have bought GTL. Most have no problems. Some people take >> Starforce as a personal insult and get quite exercised about it. I >> wouldn't pass up a great sim because a few people scream about >> Starforce. In fact, I didn't. No problems here. >> > > >

Here is a pipe dream...Simbin has already stated publicly their intention to abandon SF. Wouldn't it be cool if they then provided some utility that would allow GTR and GTL to operate without SF kludging up our systems? (I was about to dream that it would eliminate SF completely, but too many other companies bought into the SF concept, that would break those titles) dave henrie

Im glad. GTL isn;t Nascar2003 on Ovals so Starforce did us all a favor not having to hear yet again how Larry feels NR2003 is "The Best" sim out and how ISI stuff "just doesnt feel right" to him. Thank god for Starforce <vbseg>. Mitch "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AB36g.39523$_z2.6266@dukeread02...

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> My choice is to not buy any game with StarForce in it. I actually > research it before buying. > > It's my decision. The publishers can care or not care that they lose a > customer. > > I WOULD have bought GTL by now if it weren't for StarForce. > > -Larry

"Mitch" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:uC46g.64786$_S7.43258 @newssvr14.news.prodigy.com: > <vbseg>. > I had to think for a moment or two...lol! dh

Yeah, what Mitch said. I still don't think NR2003 has been superceeded. Yet. I know you hate it. That's fine. -Larry "Mitch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uC46g.64786$[email hidden]... > Im glad. GTL isn;t Nascar2003 on Ovals so Starforce did us all a favor > not having to hear yet again how Larry feels NR2003 is "The Best" sim out > and how ISI stuff "just doesnt feel right" to him.

No hate involved. I give NR2003 it's full and deserved due. IMO it's time as a competitive SIM has long since past is all. It's been fully exploited to the point a regular guy gets smoked unless he uses exlpoits. Despite your nearly delusional idea that aids and roofriding doesnt give a wear/fuel/situational advantage. From what Ive seen lately I don't think we will ever again have the communtity we did with both GPL and NR2003. Things are just to spread out now. Too many choices has all but ruined online racing. If you can find 5 guys that want to run the same thing you are doing VERY well. And once you do find a few that want to run similar events you always get the 1-2 that want to run the slowest class car just cause they prefer it. Mixed class racing with less than 15 racers on a 3 mile road course verges on crazy imo but it seems to be the norm lately ;) Mitch "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9B66g.19455$fG3.7497@dukeread09...

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> Yeah, what Mitch said. I still don't think NR2003 has been superceeded. > > Yet. > > I know you hate it. That's fine. > > -Larry

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:9B66g.19455$fG3.7497@dukeread09:

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> Yeah, what Mitch said. I still don't think NR2003 has been superceeded. > > Yet. > > I know you hate it. That's fine. > > -Larry

As I posted somewhere recently(it all merges together 5 seconds after I post) There is still a cadre of SCGT beleivers. Doesn't make'm wrong, but doesn't make'm right either. dave henrie

Mitch wrote:

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> Im glad. GTL isn;t Nascar2003 on Ovals so Starforce did us all a favor not > having to hear yet again how Larry feels NR2003 is "The Best" sim out and > how ISI stuff "just doesnt feel right" to him. > > Thank god for Starforce <vbseg>. > > Mitch > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:AB36g.39523$_z2.6266@dukeread02... >> My choice is to not buy any game with StarForce in it. I actually >> research it before buying. >> >> It's my decision. The publishers can care or not care that they lose a >> customer. >> >> I WOULD have bought GTL by now if it weren't for StarForce. >> >> -Larry > >

you need help

>"Mitch" <[email hidden]> wrote > No hate involved. I give NR2003 it's full and deserved due. IMO it's > time as a competitive SIM has long since past is all. It just shows how badly the business of racing sim is doing, 4 years later and sims are just nowadays able to top what Papyrus had given to us. We've went from multi-billion dollars producers giving us quality sims with licensing and all of the top tracks/cars/drivers/sponsors, to minuscule groups of dedicated people who try their best to release something that can be just "raced" on. Let's see how many PC racing sims there will be at E3. Zero is my bet. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

That's not quite what I said... But no matter. -Larry "Mitch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7a76g.64839$[email hidden]... > No hate involved. I give NR2003 it's full and deserved due. IMO it's > time as a competitive SIM has long since past is all. It's been fully > exploited to the point a regular guy gets smoked unless he uses exlpoits. > Despite your nearly delusional idea that aids and roofriding doesnt give a > wear/fuel/situational advantage.

Finally 'took the plunge' and installed GTL. Result - BSOD just like you Tim, but also just like you when I patched the game (Version 1.1) it disappeared. Now to the game... FANTASTIC! Just as you guys (& gals) told me, things have really moved on since GPL. Graphics are great. Control seems reasonably realistic, but the AI isn't that bright. My next question is... How do you people find time to play rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, and GT Legends at the same time? :) So many great games, so little time... -- RocketMan "Tim Epstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QmH4g.61314$[email hidden]... >I installed GTL, and immediently encounterd a BSOD (Blue screen crash). I >was able to get around this by installing a patch from the Internet. > > No production software should have such a major bug as to consistantly and > immediately introduce a BSOD. Turning rant mode off, my system has been > fine since I patched it. > > Tim > >