rec.autos.simulators

There's a sim I used to swear by that has been carefully reduced to just
these strategic elements. It's a board game called "Speed Circuit",
published these days by The Avalon Hill Game Company.  It even models
Watkin's Glen!  (No racing in wet weather though, the board will warp ;)

For me, a board game is about optimal tactics and strategies.
A first person realtime driving simulator should be about
driving technique as much as strategies. Otherwise, the strategies
can't help but be warped.

I couldn't drive the G3 car yesterday. Today I made 3 laps
without going off. I've learned to feel the tires a bit.
I can feel the weight lift off flashing over the hill crest.
I can anticipate and choose my trajectory to avoid losing
it while optimising within this real world constraint.
(Being a flight simmer, I appreciate a sim that
models gravity and inertia, nd gives it something interesting
to do ;) I can feel the effects
of the transverse weight shift due
to driveshaft torque when I spin out in first.
I can anticipate this with steering, or just stay
away from the wheelspin limit to get past it.
But the limit is there. Because it is, it affects tactics.

When I approach the tire limits while cornering now,
I can imagine that some day I'll be able to ride that
limit and actually feel the balance of the car. I feel
enough now to know it's there. Then I'll know how to
adjust the throttle and eventually plan the speed
to keep it balanced near the edge.

What I've been doing is driving the GP car like the G3.
Gears, braking points, not even using top gear. ;)
Just improving my lap times and control a bit through
faster acceleration and deceleration and a bit more
speed maybe in 4th. That's how I'm working on building
my senstivity so far.

Um, you mean getting the techniques of:
   > driving the right line, hitting
   > the brake zones, finding the apex, and nailing the exits.

not all the techniques. Just these tactical ones.

And after you drive 500 perfect tactical laps in traffic in GP2... what?
;)
In GP1, I could be leading the pack in the second lap at Monaco
after starting at the back of the grid. Probably by demon-out-braking
several cars every corner ;)  (Nice to not have to worry about control.)
Excellant "tactics"? Excellant lines and braking within the sim-world?
Of course. Even vaguely realistic? LOL)

GPL it appears, will let you work on even more techniques.
You do have to start in a different place. If GP2 would work on
my system, I think I'd use it to brush up on your favorite techniques.
I'm two years rusty in sim driving, since I found online flight sims. ;)
Right now though, I'm enjoying thinking hard about load transfer,
handling balance (never felt that before, hooray x-DOF ;),
throttle control, and speed.

Um, I doubt many will study it that way. I hope they will
try to use the minimal feedbacks available in a computer sim
to imagine they are feeling the car. They may even be doing that.
I've seen a touch of that in myself tonight.

Some people say the same thing about 6DOF PC flight simulators,
actually.  
But the extra degrees of feeling reward realistic tactics, in the end.
Without them, patently unrealistic tactics are rewarded. <I could go on
for
pages on this topic. ;>    Here, in GPL there is similar room to grow.
Both in technique, and finally in tactics.

You ARE very right though. There is a MAJOR difference in philosophy.
It starts with GPL being a realtime sim, and it goes from there.
Some will like one, some another, as you have pointed out.
I'm glad there is a choice, now.

- Matt
WarBirds: =para=
WarBirds Training Staff

   I've never raced GP2, but isn't it supposed to be a simulation of
today's F1-type cars?  GPL simulates 1960's-era Formula cars: ones
without wings, lots of horsepower-to-weight ratio, skinny, grooved
tires.  Of course they're not going to feel the same.  GPL-type cars are
going to fish-tail and spinout easier, that's the rub.

   Papy's mission is to provide the most accurate driving simulations
possible on a PC: period.  They've had great success in just about every
sim they've designed, and now they've upped the ante and created a true
physics engine to get us simmers even closer to the real thing.  Sure
the learning curve is steeper. Any new sim that doesn't is just another
sim.  Now if their sales drop because people think it's too hard, then
I'm sure they'll adjust somehow.  But I don't believe it will happen.
In fact, once simmers learn the new engine, they'll have a better
appreciation of what it takes to wrestle one of the things in the real
world, and enjoy it even more.

Darin Carr
DCarr on NROS/TEN

P.S.  I'm just guessing, but I think N3 will be a little more forgiving
than GPL, based on the wider tires, and downforce numbers.  But will
still be a challenge (I hope!).

Hi Charles,

You know, if you put it this way......then real life is arcade too.

Cheers!

Remco

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:59:42 -0400, "Charles Mak"

Okay, thanks for telling us again.

Cheers!
John

Some race cars are very esy to drive. For example a Lemans car or a Daytona 24
car needs to be easyto drive fst since the time they drive is so long.  On the
other end you Solo ll car like mine should be a darty oversteery car todrive
since the sppeds are lower and the time is much shorter.  we don't have to
string long consistan laps together to be fast.  We just need one very fast
run.

Dave

Depends a lot on the drivers preferences IMO. I personally like a car
that is *very* nervous on turn-in, bit on the oversteery side going out,
and neutral in the middle.
I bet Solo is great fun!:-D

Cheers,
Matt

--

Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)

"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
       -Cale Yarborough

Matt,

Well read about Dan gurney's Lemans win he said car was very confortable to
drive fast.  He could spend hours driving car fast.  any car set up for a 12 or
24 hour race has to be easy to drive.  since you are driving car and will be
tired it needs to be easy to drive.

Personally for Solo ll I prefer a nervous car with crisp turn in.  I still like
car to be balanced too. I like the car to exhibit a bit of oversteer at turn in
and a be nutral when power is applied. For Road courses I like the car to be
just about the same but to have better manners the a typical solo ll car at
high speeds. the last tiem I lapped hearland Park with my Solo ll car it was
almost impossible to run consistant laps due to car being set up for Solo ll
alone now and it exhibits too much oversteer to be fast on a road course.

for sims I still like crisp turn in but find a touch of understeer under full
power is easier to drive fast for long periods.  It makes for car to be slower
on short periods like racing for five to ten laps but I ususally run for an
hour or so and like the way the car feels thru the whole period and the
consistancy it porvides.

Modulating? At the rate I'm going I'll have all the skills required for a
record breaking tap-dancer! What I need is a huge *** strapped to the
brake pedal, then I can just step on the on/off switch and save myself
some work ;-)

The important thing here is the "at its limits" bit. Watching today's GP
(yes I know it was damp, but they have almost as much downforce as a herd
of elephants) it's clear the cars were having all the problems we have
with GPL. Seems to me that the problems stay pretty much the same no
matter what car you're racing, but technology allows those problems to
occur at ever-increasing speeds (give or take the odd governing body
meddling).

Andrew

Cheers,
Matt

--

Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)

"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
       -Cale Yarborough

So you are of the thinking that you could take a car set it up loose and with
lots of toe out in front and run a 24 hour race on the edge forthe whole event
and not get into a shunt. Trust me I have worked for some very strong teams and
they usually have a better plan for running long events.  Retiring soon IS NOT
ONE OF THEM.

I only need say this - Your hopeless!

With regards to toe out, no. One would not run excessive amounts in a
sprint either, as this dramatically increases tire temps and wear, as
well as makes the car nervous under braking.
I think your answer here is a bit simple minded. No need to yell:)
What I am trying to say is, you need to be competitive. I have been to
Le Mans every year since 1987, and spoken to several members of the
teams. Their main concern is fuel consumption, so they lower the wings,
making the car more unstable...
most of those races have turned out to be dogfights, where lap records
were set frequently through the night and morning.
Witness the last couple of Daytona 24hrs too, you don't need a slow car.

So what is their plan, Mr Racer?

BTW #23 is *my* number:))

Cheers,
Matt

--

Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)

"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
       -Cale Yarborough

Its*** Davenports and Frank Carneys too the won GTU class in the early
eighties at the 24 of daytona finishing fouth overall.

Most teams set a pace and stick too it, look at Roush racing very successful
team in endurance racing they have a pace they run to make the car and drivers
last, its not a qualifiing pace or a sprint pace due to the length of the event
and the wear on the drivers.

carney infact finshed the race in a cst due to a severe case of tennis elbow.
Driving last few hours almsot one handed.