rec.autos.simulators

motorcycle physics

Gunnar Horrigm

motorcycle physics

by Gunnar Horrigm » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:27:32

I've been doing some (alot, really) surfing for in-depth texts on
motorcycles, but apart from "Motorcycle Design & Technology: How and
Why" [1], which looks a little light weight (but I'll probably get it
anyway), and various papers at [2], of which most of interest are in
italian, I've pretty much drawn blanks.  I know the latter advertises
a book, but it isn't out yet, and IIRC that one has been listed as
"real soon now" for two years.

can anyone help me find some decent litterature?

[1] http://www.racesimcentral.net/%3D1000789782/sr...
[2] http://www.racesimcentral.net/~cos/DINAMOTO/indexmoto.html
--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
             "a poster is a human being or the software equivalent"

Ruud van Ga

motorcycle physics

by Ruud van Ga » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 04:35:27



I think a lot of the general vehicle physics (car physics) will do
nicely in a basic understanding.
Motorcycles use a bit of gyroscopic stability at higher wheel speeds
(at low speeds it doesn't seem to have too much impact), and LOTS of
camber influence on handling.

So a book like Race Car Vehicle Dynamics from the Millikens is also
very useful. Even for suspension I guess, although motorcycles
probably have simpler ones than cars.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Gunnar Horrigm

motorcycle physics

by Gunnar Horrigm » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 05:58:10




> >I've been doing some (alot, really) surfing for in-depth texts on
> >motorcycles, but apart from "Motorcycle Design & Technology: How and
> >Why" [1], which looks a little light weight (but I'll probably get it
> >anyway), and various papers at [2], of which most of interest are in
> >italian, I've pretty much drawn blanks.

> I think a lot of the general vehicle physics (car physics) will do
> nicely in a basic understanding.

I suppose you're right, but that just makes it all the more important
to know what things doesn't apply. :)

do you think camber is enough?  motorcycle tyres deform _a_lot_, I'm
told.  

for sure, but I wouldn't want to apply the wrong bits. :D

thanks for the input.
--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
             "a poster is a human being or the software equivalent"

Dave Pollatse

motorcycle physics

by Dave Pollatse » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:28:31

Here's a link to some papers (mostly SAE) that look somewhat promising...
http://www.mgnoc.com/Departments/mad_scientist0102.HTM
(my google search was "Motorcycle Vehicle Dynamics")
A lot of stuff from RCVD would apply, I'm sure.  You could think of a
collapsing front fork as a strut with an infinite control arm; probably the
other things would be to find tire moment data for motorcycle tires and make
sure you have the gyroscopic stuff nailed.  Springs and shocks will work the
same.
This page had a really grainy graph of some motorcycle tire data
http://www.mecc.unipd.it/~cos/DINAMOTO/Tire/Tire.html
It "looks" like lateral force versus slip angle at various camber angles,
but I don't speak italian.  No tire load sensitivity or self-aligning
torque, though.
good luck!





> > >I've been doing some (alot, really) surfing for in-depth texts on
> > >motorcycles, but apart from "Motorcycle Design & Technology: How and
> > >Why" [1], which looks a little light weight (but I'll probably get it
> > >anyway), and various papers at [2], of which most of interest are in
> > >italian, I've pretty much drawn blanks.

> > I think a lot of the general vehicle physics (car physics) will do
> > nicely in a basic understanding.

> I suppose you're right, but that just makes it all the more important
> to know what things doesn't apply. :)

> > (at low speeds it doesn't seem to have too much impact), and LOTS of
> > camber influence on handling.

> do you think camber is enough?  motorcycle tyres deform _a_lot_, I'm
> told.

> > So a book like Race Car Vehicle Dynamics from the Millikens is also
> > very useful.

> for sure, but I wouldn't want to apply the wrong bits. :D

> thanks for the input.
> --
> Gunnar
>     #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
>              "a poster is a human being or the software equivalent"

Matthew V. Jessic

motorcycle physics

by Matthew V. Jessic » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:34:07


> I've been doing some (alot, really) surfing for in-depth texts on
> motorcycles, but apart from "Motorcycle Design & Technology: How and
> Why" [1], which looks a little light weight (but I'll probably get it
> anyway), and various papers at [2], of which most of interest are in
> italian, I've pretty much drawn blanks.  I know the latter advertises
> a book, but it isn't out yet, and IIRC that one has been listed as
> "real soon now" for two years.

> can anyone help me find some decent litterature?

"Effect of Main Factors on Dynamic Properties of Motorcycle Tires."
Hideo Sakai, Osamu Kanaya, Hiromi lijima, SAE Paper 790259, 1979
Dave Pawlikowsk

motorcycle physics

by Dave Pawlikowsk » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:44:09

Try this -

http://www.tonyfoale.com/home.htm

Tony Foale comes very highly recommended by the folks at MCN.

Dave Pawlikowski
www.sportriders.com
****************************************************************************
*************

 > I've been doing some (alot, really) surfing for in-depth texts on
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/8879111892/qid%3D1000789782/sr...
ref%3Dsr%5F8%5F3%5F1/102-7725483-5381722

Gunnar Horrigm

motorcycle physics

by Gunnar Horrigm » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:19:38

got a bit to read up on now.  thanks, everyone. :)

--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
        gnus don't kill people.  gnus-summary-lower-score kills people.

Ruud van Ga

motorcycle physics

by Ruud van Ga » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:11:03






>> >I've been doing some (alot, really) surfing for in-depth texts on
>> >motorcycles, but apart from "Motorcycle Design & Technology: How and
>> >Why" [1], which looks a little light weight (but I'll probably get it
>> >anyway), and various papers at [2], of which most of interest are in
>> >italian, I've pretty much drawn blanks.

>> I think a lot of the general vehicle physics (car physics) will do
>> nicely in a basic understanding.

>I suppose you're right, but that just makes it all the more important
>to know what things doesn't apply. :)

Right, but a mix of literature in the end will help. But I understand
it's better to just get the best book upfront, instead of learning by
pieces (I've got too many books by now ;-)).

Hm, you could add a lateral spring value perhaps. But the infamous
SAE950311 paper on relaxation lengths where you take another
indirection in calculating slip angle was based on work that was done
for tractor tires, for instance.
Those tires take a long time (relatively speaking) to build up lateral
force. That's the lag due to tire deformation. So a tractor is like a
motorcycle. ;-)

Ofcourse, at a deeper level, you'd want to add vibrations perhaps when
the tire springs back into place. Not something that Barnard did
(there are vibrations, but more because of the maths).

As a general thing, I found that a lot of the formulae in all the
books I've seen are not readily usable in your own software. It
describes what happens, but mostly doesn't fit your own framework. And
a lot is steady state stuff, and basically the further you push away
steady state formulae, the more depth your software gets (ofcourse,
any Pacejka calculation etc are steady state).

So it's more to understand how tires & suspensions work, and then
express your own way to simulate these things (possible at so many
difficulty levels and in so many way).
I find that understanding a physical phenomenon only makes you want to
express it in your own way, as you yourself understand it. Not using
clearcut formulae from a book, mostly (which often apply with too many
assumptions).

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Gregor Vebl

motorcycle physics

by Gregor Vebl » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:04:11

That indeed is true. Of course, then you often find out that what you come
up with has already been done in some other paper ;). But it certainly
helps the understanding of the system.

-Gregor


> I find that understanding a physical phenomenon only makes you want to
> express it in your own way, as you yourself understand it. Not using
> clearcut formulae from a book, mostly (which often apply with too many
> assumptions).

> Ruud van Gaal
> Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
> Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Doug Millike

motorcycle physics

by Doug Millike » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:16:46


> http://www.mgnoc.com/Departments/mad_scientist0102.HTM
> (my google search was "Motorcycle Vehicle Dynamics")
> This page had a really grainy graph of some motorcycle tire data
> http://www.mecc.unipd.it/~cos/DINAMOTO/Tire/Tire.html

I'd go with Robin Sharp -- he has a long history of studying
motorcycle dynamics.  The other authors to look for are Roland
and Rice from Cornell Aeronautucal Laboratory (later Calspan)
who modeled bicycles (Schwinn) and motorcycles (Harley).  They
published a little, a long time ago...

Interesting that someone finally built a tire tester that
uses a disk instead of a belt--thanks for that link.  A disk (much
larger) was another possibility that was considered when TIRF was
designed.

Ruud van Ga

motorcycle physics

by Ruud van Ga » Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:04:36

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:04:11 +0200, Gregor Veble


>That indeed is true. Of course, then you often find out that what you come
>up with has already been done in some other paper ;).

Hehe, but still, without it you might not have looked that much into
the paper anyway.

And by far, also with debugging if something doesn't look at. Not
unimportant when you're doing a sim (in fact, one of the most
important things rather to avoid visits to mental institutions ;-) ).

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/


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