rec.autos.simulators

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

Don Wilsh

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Don Wilsh » Mon, 04 Nov 2002 14:50:17

Even if you are right, you can still lose your ass in court.   You have to convince the court and jury
that something you said was correct.  If your a juvenile and post some ***about someone that
isn't true you can cost your parents or your family a bundle.  Lets say you call a person by name of handle a cheater
and that person not or even does.  He takes you to court.  Or he doesn't and the State Attorney has a
slow work and wants to barbecue your ass. hehe.   Just a warning...  Watch what you say..   Dont let someone
set you up for a fall.  

====================================================================================================
From the E-Magazine!

====================================================================================================
Online stores think they deserve diplomatic immunity simply because they've got a ".com" painted on the front window.
Some people like to think of ***space as an actual place, complete with its own code of conduct and free from the limitations that apply anywhere else.

But me, I cringe at the word "***space." The Internet is a computer network, not some alternate dimension. And the people and computers it links are very much a part of the ordinary world and all its ordinary rules.

Keep this in mind when considering the online equivalents of two basic American concepts: free speech and taxation. Although the Revolutionary War was fought over those very issues, many Americans seem to feel the rules that stem from those battles can be undone by merely flipping on their PC and dialing a modem.

Let's start with speech. The federal courts in the United States have done a nice job reminding the US Congress that e-mail, Web sites and other forms of online speech deserve just as much First Amendment protection as anything the Founding Fathers might have put down with a quill and scroll. But they've sent mixed signals about speech posted anonymously, suggesting to civil libertarians and others that Web surfers should enjoy some special right to speak without being seen.

People who post flaming criticisms in chat rooms often are surprised to learn that their targets can ferret out their identity by serving a subpoena on their chat room host or Internet service provider. Companies stung by online criticism often use this technique to silence their critics, eliciting protests from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the American Civil Liberties Union and other public interest groups.

But these groups would be better off warning Web surfers that offline rules of slander and libel apply on the Internet as well. People post damaging untruths in chat rooms far more frequently than companies file frivolous lawsuits. And while the US Supreme Court has protected individuals' right to speak anonymously, companies like Yahoo or America Online aren't obligated to provide anyone with a forum for doing so.

Companies that choose to fight for their users' anonymity will likely be rewarded with increased business from a grateful online community. But Net users should realize that such protection is a perk and not some online amendment to the Bill of Rights.

Internet businesses, meanwhile, seem to think they have a right to compensation without taxation. The impression stems in part from a federal law that has imposed a moratorium on new Internet-related taxes. That moratorium is set to expire in October, though some members of Congress are trying to extend it indefinitely.

But the real problem isn't the lack of new taxes but the inability of state and local officials to collect an old one D sales tax.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that states can't force out-of-state businesses to collect sales tax on their behalf. That loophole allows online shoppers to check out of most online stores without paying the tax they'd owe for buying the very same items in their hometown.

Online retailers protest that they couldn't possibly comply with thousands of state and local taxes. But some online businesses are already doing it, and local authorities have offered to simplify their tax codes in hopes that holdouts like Amazon.com will start asking customers to collect them.

They're willing to go this far because without the tax revenues they're losing to online stores, they'll have an even harder time paying for schools and roads needed to educate future online shoppers and carry them to work.

It seems silly to argue that one store shouldn't have to collect the same tax as a similar shop next door. But online stores think they deserve diplomatic immunity simply because they've got a ".com" painted on the front window.

Congress can ban new taxes on Internet service, but it ought to do something to make sure government can collect the ones that already exist.

E-commerce lobbyists will complain that sales tax will drive even more dot-coms into bankruptcy, and maybe they're right. But that's just one risk of doing business in the real world. And online businesses, despite what they might think, have been there all along.

Pickax

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Pickax » Mon, 04 Nov 2002 16:56:41

Gee, that's funny. I could've swore the burden of proof was on the plantiff in such a case, that they had to prove that such comments were injurious(?) to their character. I doubt any DA or State Attorney would take a case dealing with 'cheaters' in the world of online NASCAR. Who wrote this crap?

  Even if you are right, you can still lose your ass in court.   You have to convince the court and jury
  that something you said was correct.  If your a juvenile and post some ***about someone that
  isn't true you can cost your parents or your family a bundle.  Lets say you call a person by name of handle a cheater
  and that person not or even does.  He takes you to court.  Or he doesn't and the State Attorney has a
  slow work and wants to barbecue your ass. hehe.   Just a warning...  Watch what you say..   Dont let someone
  set you up for a fall.  

  ====================================================================================================
  From the E-Magazine!

  ====================================================================================================
  Online stores think they deserve diplomatic immunity simply because they've got a ".com" painted on the front window.
  Some people like to think of ***space as an actual place, complete with its own code of conduct and free from the limitations that apply anywhere else.

  But me, I cringe at the word "***space." The Internet is a computer network, not some alternate dimension. And the people and computers it links are very much a part of the ordinary world and all its ordinary rules.

  Keep this in mind when considering the online equivalents of two basic American concepts: free speech and taxation. Although the Revolutionary War was fought over those very issues, many Americans seem to feel the rules that stem from those battles can be undone by merely flipping on their PC and dialing a modem.

  Let's start with speech. The federal courts in the United States have done a nice job reminding the US Congress that e-mail, Web sites and other forms of online speech deserve just as much First Amendment protection as anything the Founding Fathers might have put down with a quill and scroll. But they've sent mixed signals about speech posted anonymously, suggesting to civil libertarians and others that Web surfers should enjoy some special right to speak without being seen.

  People who post flaming criticisms in chat rooms often are surprised to learn that their targets can ferret out their identity by serving a subpoena on their chat room host or Internet service provider. Companies stung by online criticism often use this technique to silence their critics, eliciting protests from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the American Civil Liberties Union and other public interest groups.

  But these groups would be better off warning Web surfers that offline rules of slander and libel apply on the Internet as well. People post damaging untruths in chat rooms far more frequently than companies file frivolous lawsuits. And while the US Supreme Court has protected individuals' right to speak anonymously, companies like Yahoo or America Online aren't obligated to provide anyone with a forum for doing so.

  Companies that choose to fight for their users' anonymity will likely be rewarded with increased business from a grateful online community. But Net users should realize that such protection is a perk and not some online amendment to the Bill of Rights.

  Internet businesses, meanwhile, seem to think they have a right to compensation without taxation. The impression stems in part from a federal law that has imposed a moratorium on new Internet-related taxes. That moratorium is set to expire in October, though some members of Congress are trying to extend it indefinitely.

  But the real problem isn't the lack of new taxes but the inability of state and local officials to collect an old one D sales tax.

  The US Supreme Court has ruled that states can't force out-of-state businesses to collect sales tax on their behalf. That loophole allows online shoppers to check out of most online stores without paying the tax they'd owe for buying the very same items in their hometown.

  Online retailers protest that they couldn't possibly comply with thousands of state and local taxes. But some online businesses are already doing it, and local authorities have offered to simplify their tax codes in hopes that holdouts like Amazon.com will start asking customers to collect them.

  They're willing to go this far because without the tax revenues they're losing to online stores, they'll have an even harder time paying for schools and roads needed to educate future online shoppers and carry them to work.

  It seems silly to argue that one store shouldn't have to collect the same tax as a similar shop next door. But online stores think they deserve diplomatic immunity simply because they've got a ".com" painted on the front window.

  Congress can ban new taxes on Internet service, but it ought to do something to make sure government can collect the ones that already exist.

  E-commerce lobbyists will complain that sales tax will drive even more dot-coms into bankruptcy, and maybe they're right. But that's just one risk of doing business in the real world. And online businesses, despite what they might think, have been there all along.

Malc

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Malc » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:24:02


Gee, that's funny. I could've swore the burden of proof was on the plantiff
in such a case, that they had to prove that such comments were injurious(?)
to their character. I doubt any DA or State Attorney would take a case
dealing with 'cheaters' in the world of online NASCAR. Who wrote this crap?
____________________

While the law may vary from place to place, in general if you make a
defamatory comment and you end up going to court, the person you defamed
doesn't have to prove you wrong, and if you can't prove you're right, you'll
lose the case.

I***but it's worth bearing the above general rule in mind whenever you
post on usenet. Slander (verbal instead of written comment) works in much
the same way I believe.

Malc.

Joe M

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Joe M » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:58:00




> Gee, that's funny. I could've swore the burden of proof was on the
plantiff
> in such a case, that they had to prove that such comments were
injurious(?)
> to their character. I doubt any DA or State Attorney would take a case
> dealing with 'cheaters' in the world of online NASCAR. Who wrote this
crap?
> ____________________

> While the law may vary from place to place, in general if you make a
> defamatory comment and you end up going to court, the person you defamed
> doesn't have to prove you wrong, and if you can't prove you're right,
you'll
> lose the case.

> I***but it's worth bearing the above general rule in mind whenever you
> post on usenet. Slander (verbal instead of written comment) works in much
> the same way I believe.

> Malc.

Libel and slander are the same; they just define the method of defamation.
Libel is written, slander is spoken.  It's important to remember that
defamation involves FALSE statements.  IIRC, in this type of action the
burden of proof does shift to the defendant to prove that the statement is
true.

I must say that the article is alarmist.  While it reports the obvious (laws
apply online) it fails to convey the reality that defamation actions are
rarely brought because of expense vs. reward.  Lawyers do not waste their
time with petty defamation cases with judgment values in the hundreds of
dollar range.  Think about it.  What kind of settlement or verdict do you
think you'd get if someone calls you a NASCAR 2002 cheater?  $500?  $1000?

Defamation suits are FAR more frequent when the slanderous/libelous material
causes significant damage to a business (i.e., a magazine review LIES about
seeing rats in a restaurant and the restaurant ends up closing due to a
severe loss of clientele).

I think we're all safe here at r.a.s.  Let's give it a try: Hey Don Wilshe,
you're a big fat cheater! :0) <joke>

PS-An obvious joke or an opinion (as in "I think you're stupid") cannot
defamatory.

--
Joe M.

Rick Boy

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Rick Boy » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 07:37:22

Well stated.

Maybe you could head over to Race Sim Central and explain some things to
folks there.  Moderators there, (well, at least one) seem to think they have
some sort of right not to be offended.

How pleasant life would be if I had reached 47 years of age without ever
being offended.  Pure Nirvana if I had never offended anyone else.

Phil Le

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Phil Le » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 08:10:37


I don't know which moderator you are talking about but if you have a
specific problem with a member of our team we'd prefer it if you took it up
directly with an admin in private rather than in public here.

I have every confidence in all our moderators and trust them to keep an eye
on the forums for us. This is important because unlike a newsgroup, the
admins at RSC are legally responsible for every post made on the forums.
This is why we have to employ moderators.  Fortunately the sim racing
community is generally a friendly bunch and we don't have to take action
very often. The main problems we have are people posting race spoilers and
requests for pirated software. We hardly ever have to ban people, I think we
have banned a total of 5 people permanantly.

Phil Lee
---
Race Sim Central Administrator
http://www.racesimcentral.com

jon

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by jon » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 08:17:15


> I must say that the article is alarmist.
> --
> Joe M.

I must say that the lawsuit, if it ever saw a courtroom, would be frivolous.
Sounds like some ***the Scientologists would do.
Goy Larse

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Goy Larse » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 08:25:20



> > I must say that the article is alarmist.
> > --
> > Joe M.

> I must say that the lawsuit, if it ever saw a courtroom, would be frivolous.
> Sounds like some ***the Scientologists would do.

Another fan of the great L Ron Hubbard I assume....:-)

http://www.racesimcentral.net/:-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

TDRacin

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by TDRacin » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 07:39:22

Take em to court and hire Don as your lawyer!!!!!!!         LMAO!


Larr

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Larr » Wed, 06 Nov 2002 01:30:48

All computer software and hardware is perfect.  Zero flaws.  I really mean that :)

-Larry

  Even if you are right, you can still lose your ass in court.   You have to convince the court and jury
  that something you said was correct.  If your a juvenile and post some ***about someone that
  isn't true you can cost your parents or your family a bundle.  Lets say you call a person by name of handle a cheater
  and that person not or even does.  He takes you to court.  Or he doesn't and the State Attorney has a
  slow work and wants to barbecue your ass. hehe.   Just a warning...  Watch what you say..   Dont let someone
  set you up for a fall.  

  ====================================================================================================
  From the E-Magazine!

  ====================================================================================================
  Online stores think they deserve diplomatic immunity simply because they've got a ".com" painted on the front window.
  Some people like to think of ***space as an actual place, complete with its own code of conduct and free from the limitations that apply anywhere else.

  But me, I cringe at the word "***space." The Internet is a computer network, not some alternate dimension. And the people and computers it links are very much a part of the ordinary world and all its ordinary rules.

  Keep this in mind when considering the online equivalents of two basic American concepts: free speech and taxation. Although the Revolutionary War was fought over those very issues, many Americans seem to feel the rules that stem from those battles can be undone by merely flipping on their PC and dialing a modem.

  Let's start with speech. The federal courts in the United States have done a nice job reminding the US Congress that e-mail, Web sites and other forms of online speech deserve just as much First Amendment protection as anything the Founding Fathers might have put down with a quill and scroll. But they've sent mixed signals about speech posted anonymously, suggesting to civil libertarians and others that Web surfers should enjoy some special right to speak without being seen.

  People who post flaming criticisms in chat rooms often are surprised to learn that their targets can ferret out their identity by serving a subpoena on their chat room host or Internet service provider. Companies stung by online criticism often use this technique to silence their critics, eliciting protests from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the American Civil Liberties Union and other public interest groups.

  But these groups would be better off warning Web surfers that offline rules of slander and libel apply on the Internet as well. People post damaging untruths in chat rooms far more frequently than companies file frivolous lawsuits. And while the US Supreme Court has protected individuals' right to speak anonymously, companies like Yahoo or America Online aren't obligated to provide anyone with a forum for doing so.

  Companies that choose to fight for their users' anonymity will likely be rewarded with increased business from a grateful online community. But Net users should realize that such protection is a perk and not some online amendment to the Bill of Rights.

  Internet businesses, meanwhile, seem to think they have a right to compensation without taxation. The impression stems in part from a federal law that has imposed a moratorium on new Internet-related taxes. That moratorium is set to expire in October, though some members of Congress are trying to extend it indefinitely.

  But the real problem isn't the lack of new taxes but the inability of state and local officials to collect an old one D sales tax.

  The US Supreme Court has ruled that states can't force out-of-state businesses to collect sales tax on their behalf. That loophole allows online shoppers to check out of most online stores without paying the tax they'd owe for buying the very same items in their hometown.

  Online retailers protest that they couldn't possibly comply with thousands of state and local taxes. But some online businesses are already doing it, and local authorities have offered to simplify their tax codes in hopes that holdouts like Amazon.com will start asking customers to collect them.

  They're willing to go this far because without the tax revenues they're losing to online stores, they'll have an even harder time paying for schools and roads needed to educate future online shoppers and carry them to work.

  It seems silly to argue that one store shouldn't have to collect the same tax as a similar shop next door. But online stores think they deserve diplomatic immunity simply because they've got a ".com" painted on the front window.

  Congress can ban new taxes on Internet service, but it ought to do something to make sure government can collect the ones that already exist.

  E-commerce lobbyists will complain that sales tax will drive even more dot-coms into bankruptcy, and maybe they're right. But that's just one risk of doing business in the real world. And online businesses, despite what they might think, have been there all along.

Philste

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Philste » Wed, 06 Nov 2002 10:38:33

Ah, America, land of the infinite lawyers... You got to keep them employed
;) Pretty soon, people will go to court because someone on the street looked
at them the wrong way... ;)

--
Philippe "Philster" Sergerie


Even if you are right, you can still lose your ass in court.   You have to
convince the court and jury
that something you said was correct.  If your a juvenile and post some ***
about someone that
isn't true you can cost your parents or your family a bundle.  Lets say you
call a person by name of handle a cheater
and that person not or even does.  He takes you to court.  Or he doesn't and
the State Attorney has a
slow work and wants to barbecue your ass. hehe.   Just a warning...  Watch
what you say..   Dont let someone
set you up for a fall.

============================================================================
========================
From the E-Magazine!

============================================================================
========================
Online stores think they deserve diplomatic immunity simply because they've
got a ".com" painted on the front window.
Some people like to think of ***space as an actual place, complete with
its own code of conduct and free from the limitations that apply anywhere
else.
But me, I cringe at the word "***space." The Internet is a computer
network, not some alternate dimension. And the people and computers it links
are very much a part of the ordinary world and all its ordinary rules.
Keep this in mind when considering the online equivalents of two basic
American concepts: free speech and taxation. Although the Revolutionary War
was fought over those very issues, many Americans seem to feel the rules
that stem from those battles can be undone by merely flipping on their PC
and dialing a modem.
Let's start with speech. The federal courts in the United States have done a
nice job reminding the US Congress that e-mail, Web sites and other forms of
online speech deserve just as much First Amendment protection as anything
the Founding Fathers might have put down with a quill and scroll. But
they've sent mixed signals about speech posted anonymously, suggesting to
civil libertarians and others that Web surfers should enjoy some special
right to speak without being seen.
People who post flaming criticisms in chat rooms often are surprised to
learn that their targets can ferret out their identity by serving a subpoena
on their chat room host or Internet service provider. Companies stung by
online criticism often use this technique to silence their critics,
eliciting protests from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the American
Civil Liberties Union and other public interest groups.
But these groups would be better off warning Web surfers that offline rules
of slander and libel apply on the Internet as well. People post damaging
untruths in chat rooms far more frequently than companies file frivolous
lawsuits. And while the US Supreme Court has protected individuals' right to
speak anonymously, companies like Yahoo or America Online aren't obligated
to provide anyone with a forum for doing so.
Companies that choose to fight for their users' anonymity will likely be
rewarded with increased business from a grateful online community. But Net
users should realize that such protection is a perk and not some online
amendment to the Bill of Rights.
Internet businesses, meanwhile, seem to think they have a right to
compensation without taxation. The impression stems in part from a federal
law that has imposed a moratorium on new Internet-related taxes. That
moratorium is set to expire in October, though some members of Congress are
trying to extend it indefinitely.
But the real problem isn't the lack of new taxes but the inability of state
and local officials to collect an old one D sales tax.
The US Supreme Court has ruled that states can't force out-of-state
businesses to collect sales tax on their behalf. That loophole allows online
shoppers to check out of most online stores without paying the tax they'd
owe for buying the very same items in their hometown.
Online retailers protest that they couldn't possibly comply with thousands
of state and local taxes. But some online businesses are already doing it,
and local authorities have offered to simplify their tax codes in hopes that
holdouts like Amazon.com will start asking customers to collect them.
They're willing to go this far because without the tax revenues they're
losing to online stores, they'll have an even harder time paying for schools
and roads needed to educate future online shoppers and carry them to work.
It seems silly to argue that one store shouldn't have to collect the same
tax as a similar shop next door. But online stores think they deserve
diplomatic immunity simply because they've got a ".com" painted on the front
window.
Congress can ban new taxes on Internet service, but it ought to do something
to make sure government can collect the ones that already exist.
E-commerce lobbyists will complain that sales tax will drive even more
dot-coms into bankruptcy, and maybe they're right. But that's just one risk
of doing business in the real world. And online businesses, despite what
they might think, have been there all along.

Uwe Schuerkam

NASCAR 2002: Be Careful What you say! Dont Slander even with proof, Real-world laws in cyberspace

by Uwe Schuerkam » Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:33:32


> Ah, America, land of the infinite lawyers... You got to keep them employed
> ;) Pretty soon, people will go to court because someone on the street looked
> at them the wrong way... ;)

> --

And land of the tofus it might seem, although I have no idea if
Larry is from the U.S. ;-)

uwe

--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
GPG Fingerprint:  2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F  67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61


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