rec.autos.simulators

Stick: Logitech Wingman Force USB/Serial

Computers: P200 64mb,V1, win95 serial and PII266, 128mb, V2, win95 USB

Games: tons of full and demos tested, about 15-20 total, I'm still
checking out more

Physical Form:
The Logitech stick seems very well made and solid. The unit it bulbous
but fits and sits well on ones lap. It form fits my hand grip well. Took

a little getting use to but any new joystick takes getting use to. My
only gripe is the hat sw and switches near the hat switch seem a little
high and 'out of the way' to reach with my thumb.

Noise level:
None. Its a totally silent stick. The only time it makes 'noise' is when

the forces being made are high or quick frequency but any ff stick will
do that cause of the oscilating stick movement.

Connecting:
Flawless setup for the software and hardware, if you follow the
directions. I goofed at first and installed the stick then the software
but it needs to be in the other order. No calibration is necessary. The
'Profiler' is well done and pretty easy to use. One annoying thing, the
Profiler needs to always be running in the background in order for the
stick to work. That 32 bit Profiler program sucks up 11mb of win95
memory (according to Norton) running two different aps, one 8mb and one
3mb (note: this is using serial connect, not sure what a USB connect
uses for win95 memory or for that matter if its any different).

Games:
Ok the cool part. For being a newbie to FF I was surprisingly
unimpressed by what FF does. Thats right, UNIMPRESSED. But dont blame
the joystick!!!!! Its the games that are at fault. Alot of games have
some very cool efx, the problem is its usually on ONE cool effect per
game. Very few FF games seem have their FF shit together.

Cool efx listing:
MS CART- rumble strips at corner edges
NFS3 - 'dead wheel' when in a slide
MS FlightSim98 - runway cement strips on take off
Incoming - being hit by an enemys incoming fire
MonsterTruckMadness2 - landing the truck after a jump

Games That Didnt Work:
MDK with ff patch, Motocross Madness, Powerslide demo,  Viper Racing
demo and Die By The Sword demo. I'm not 100% sure on DBTS. It controls
with the joystick very well but I'm not exactly sure what I'm suppose to

'feel' with the sword.

Best Games:
the best. Incoming and MS FlightSim98 are second. NFS3 is third.

Problems:
Very few games didnt work.  I could use the stick but not the FF part.
Motocross Madness is getting a patch from what I hear, Viper Racing it
getting fixed too. Not sure on the others. Incompatibility is rare tho.

Notes:
I have notice NO slowdowns at all in any games so far. Some people
complained about that with the MS FF joystick. <shrug>

Summary:
I feel its well worth the $100 I paid for it. For the most part, my
Wingman Force just plain works very well. I feel the main problem is
that the games are not implementing FF very well yet. There are a few
cool well designed FF games but not very many. As time goes on, esp.
with the onslaught of FF wheels coming out, lots more games will be
using FF to a better effect.

Thanks for the report.  My first inclination was to consider FF a gimmick
aimed primarily at arcaders.  Me, I'm a flight and racing simmer (lately, just
the latter).  I can see it being put to good use in both.  In flight sims, I'd
like it to mimic the feel of a stick when one gets into buffeting and the
mushiness associated with near-stall flight.  In racing sims, the obvious
benefit would be in giving road feel to indicate slip.  My guess, and as your
report tends to support, is that it is instead used for things like gun
vibration and rumble strips.  To me, that isn't worth the change to FF.  And
as noted by the GPL designers, they don't think FF is there yet for the road
feel.  So, maybe in another year or so?  I'll wait.

I have been using the MS Sidewinder FF joystick for about a year.  It's very
nice in sims like FS98.  I wouldn't say it's incredible, but it does add to
the realism.  The stick actually helps you fly.  For example, if your plane
isn't "trimmed" out, you can really feel the force of it (i.e. you fight the
stick to keep the plane level).  It also helps with wind and stalls.

I also like it in sims like F1RS.  The stiffness of the control I think
helps.    I have been considering MS's FF wheel, but $200 is a bit
pricey(sp).  I will wait a bit, although the Sidewinder FF hasn't gone down
a penny since I bought it a year ago for $149.

Tom

    One game where I really like the execution of FF is I-War.  The stick shudders
when you fire, jerks when you are hit or when you collide with another ship  and,
best of all, when your controls go dead on you, the stick goes dead too.  Now,
these are not incredibly complicated effects, but they do seriously help with the
gameplay.  When that stick keeps shuddering, you know you're taking damage and when
it goes dead, you feel really helpless.
    I also like the implementation in Warbirds.  The stick's reaction to stalls is
very helpful, and the FF on cannon or mgs is just plain cool.

    -Sascha