rec.autos.simulators

I know this has been done to death but I need a hug :-)
How long does it take to get good at this game and what is the best way
to practice (race? training? all tracks and cars? one track and car?)
I've feel like I've improved a lot (the squash ball helped) and I think
i am more consistent BUT I just finished what I thought was for sure my
best lap ever at Spa (in the Brahbam) and ended up at 3:29 and change.
My PB is like a second better than that and I made that when my style
involved a lot of smoke off the tires. I did a spygirl thing with the
hotlap that comes with the game and I was losing major ground in the
eau rouge and a bit everywhere else. I've gotten through Masta before
at around 170 but I'm usually around 165 (and that is with, er, less
than 100% success) and I've seen people take it at 180. Right now I'm
trying to concentrate on keeping focused ahead of the car (brakepoint,
apex, trackout, brakepoint, apex, trackout...) maybe that will help.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

You're on the right track.  Try the Lotus and you'll be much faster.  Make
sure you download some good setups and you'll be there.  Listen to your
tires - it helps me.

Approximately three aeons. (Margin of error: 200,000,000 years)

Whatever's best for you. Like a lot of things about GPL, opinions vary.
But mine is that you'd do best to have one "favourite" chassis (mine is
the Lotus) and use that most of the time, but give yourself a change
occasionally. As for circuits, you'll get deathly bored doing one track
time after time, even if it's Spa. Try somewhere a little less obvious,
like Mosport or Rouen (both good Lotus tracks).

That's not at all bad in a Brabham, actually. At least three cars
(Lotus, Ferrari and Eagle) are better suited to Spa - a wide, fast
track like that doesn't suit the Brabham.

Mine still does...

Eau Rouge? Try this. Come out of the hairpin, and put your foot down
(careful when changing up from 1st to 2nd, as it's a little skittish).
Move over to the right-hand side of the track, so that your right-hand
wheels are along the line marking the edge of the pitlane. Angle the
car so that your left-hand wheels will *just* miss the wall on the
left. By this time, you might (depending on setup) be changing into
4th. Down to 3rd for the uphill right-hander, then go right up to the
bank for the left-hander - you might slide a bit, but that's fine.
Works for me! (In the Eagle, of course - nothing beats it at Spa.)

I'm about where you are on that one. 170 is the fastest I'll risk in a
race. I *have* done 175 successfully, but I tend to get overe***d
when I do it (on my PB lap, I went down to 167 there). The really top
drivers (ie not me...) don't brake at all, just lift off a bit. but you
need very precise positioning for that.
--
David.
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,
really."
(Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

The thing I notice most about beginners is that they brake too early.  You
might need to work on that.  Also, keep in mind you can generally find more
time in the slow corners than the fast ones.  I don't consider Masta a very
important corner, unless of course there's another car right on your
gearbox.  If you're taking it at 165 I'll bet you're not even losing a whole
second there.

Good luck.

-A

If you brake *any* later, you're off the track.....  At least in MY case.<g>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. 1:45.49 minutes-GPLRank:342 as of 6/15/00

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Not! You have a lot more acceleration potential at slow speed than high
speed. Exiting a fast corner slowly hurts you much more than exiting a slow
corner slowly. This is simple physics: Power requirements vary with the
square of the speed. The faster you go, the more power you need to simply
maintain your speed. The more power spent maintaining your speed, the less
power you have left over to accelerate. The less excess power you have, the
slower you accelerate. The slower you accelerate, the longer it takes to
gain back a given amount of speed. This is simple physics, not to mention
commonsense.

IMHO, opinions don't matter a heck of a much when it's based on ignorance or
lazy thinking. Exiting Masta poorly, of all corners to talk about, costs you
more than any other corner in GPL.First and foremost: "a whole second" is
**BIG**, even at longer tracks like Spa. Second: you don't gain back speed
out of fast corners near as quickly, as noted above. Third: you carry any
deficit all the way to Stavelot. Exiting Masta 5 mph slower means you're 5
mph slower at every point along the way. There are longer straights; at the
'Ring, for one. There are faster corners; also at the 'Ring, and maybe even
at Monza. But there is no faster corner followed by a longer straight
leading to another fast corner than Masta.

Even so, you need to be 14 mph slower out of Masta to lose a full second.
OTOH, 5 mph slower equates to more than 100 ft, about 4 car lengths, when
you get to Stavelot. That's space enough to pass. You can bet I won't be on
your gearbox if I know you'll be exiting slow. I'll hang back far enough to
hit it at my pace, and then blow the paint off your car coming out.

Michael.

People must use really cheap paint where you live. ;-)

Jan.
=---

Your arguments are all correct, but in the end you reach the wrong
conclusion because there are other factors you haven't considered.  Consider
how much earlier you have to brake to take a slow corner slow, compared to
taking a corner like Masta slow which is just a matter of lifting a bit
earlier.  Consider how much time you spend in a fast kink like Masta vs how
much you spend in a hairpin like La Source.  Take a 45 mph corner at 30 mph
and you spend 50% too much time time mid-corner, take a 180mph corner like
Masta at 165mph and you only spend about 13% too much time mid-corner.

But more importantly, my opinion is based on my personal experience, not on
these little side-arguments.  I know that my PB at Spa is 3:17.3, and if I
***up Masta and take it at 170 instead of 180, I can still do something
like 3:17.8.

I used to think fast corners and exit-speed were extremely important too,
but a year of farting around with GPL Dump and trying to improve my times
has taught me to think differently.

-A

Then you might need to improve your mid-corner speed so you don't need to
brake so much.

Sorry, I know that's a terrible answer.  :o)

Yes, understood, and that is a large part of Masta's uniqueness. There isn't
any room to make up what you lost. Once you commit to the line, the best you
can do is ride it out, and then stand on the gas for the next 13 seconds.
The line you take into Masta, and the speed you carry coming out, determines
how fast you go, not just through the kink, but for the next 15 seconds.
OTOH, you have a whole lot more flexibility getting through La Source.

Well, you have to know by now that I can't disagree more. Exit speed before
a long straight is the determinant, much more so than the time spent in the
corner. It's entirely possible to drive into La Source at 30, get on the gas
sooner, and exit faster than someone else scrubbing his way through at 45,
out of shape, and gets on the gas much later. I don't think you have time to
blink in the time it takes an F1 to go from 30 to 45, not that either way is
to be recommended... There simply isn't room, or power, to do this a Masta.
And this is all I was trying to say. Being 5 mph slow on a straight means
he's pulling away from you at 5 mph, no matter how fast you're going. The
longer the straight, the longer he's pulling away, and the larger that
deficit becomes. This is different from coming out behind someone at the
same speed; when you get where you're going, you're still only that same
difference behind.

Yup. A small percentage difference exiting that little flea-flicker of a
kink can cost you a staggering 0.5 seconds per lap. There isn't anything you
can do to make up that difference, given equal performance. Contrast this
with La Source, where you're fighting spin limit rather than lateral G's.

This is something we can agree on. I've given up on hot-lapping, too.
Driving a consistent line through the race is far more important. I can't
get through Masta at 180 consistently, but 170 is comfortable with gas in
the tank to go the distance. Contrary to my hard stance earlier, the time
lost is small compared to putting yourself out of the race.

Michael.

You're right - that IS a terrible answer...<g>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. 1:45.49 minutes-GPLRank:342 as of 6/15/00

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

What it really boils down to, is that the most important corners are the
corners where you suck.  Keep in mind we were originally talking about a
driver who turns pretty lousy 3:28's at Spa, yet takes Masta at a nearly
respectable 165 mph.  Doesn't sound like someone who should be fretting
about Masta.  My experience has been that I lose most of my time to Greger
Huttu in the slow corners, usually in braking zones or mid-corner, so I put
emphasis on the slow corners with my own driving.  I'll back down a bit and
admit that other people's experiences could be different, although my
intuition still tells me I'm not the only one who has noticed huge spikes on
my time-lost graph when I brake too early for a slow corner.

You made some small mistakes here.  If you exit Masta 5 mph too slow, by the
end of the straight you're doing about 200 and he's doing 202, though yes,
he is of course pulling away from you.  However, he is pulling away from you
even if you exit at the exact same speed; simply by virtue of being in front
of you, and getting to the point where he can hit the gas first (assuming
you're not close enough to catch a draft).  Same principle applies to a slow
corner.  So you are incorrect to say, "This is different from coming out
behind someone at the same speed; when you get where you're going, you're
still only that same difference behind."

With regards to our La Source example, again you aren't taking everything
into consideration.  In order to take La Source at 35 instead of 45, you
need to brake a bit earlier.  This is extremely bad.  This was my first
revelation when comparing my own laps to Greger's.  Braking too early for a
corner causes huge spikes on the time-lost graph.  The spike continues to
rise steeply, with an intriguingly straight slope, the entire length of the
braking zone (even if you brake just as hard as Greger).  It rises much more
steeply than with any other driving error you can make- short of hitting a
wall.  I suppose this was where I first got my idea that the slow corners
were important.  Simply because braking is not as much of an issue in a fast
corner.

I suppose it might be a 0.5 second problem for many drivers, but since I can
take Masta at 180 half the time, and 175 the rest of the time, so I just
don't worry about that too much.  Our friend who takes it at 165 shouldn't
worry about it too much either, because he's not losing much time there
compared to the rest of the track.  He'd do better to figure out where he's
losing his other 16 seconds.  I'll admit that Masta could be important for
your typical moderately skilled driver.  But not every fast corner has such
a long straight after it.

Respectfully,
Aubrey

Of course, you're right; I should have realized this was still the context.
:-)

Michael.

Are you serious?

And here I thought we were having such a fun little argument. :)