rec.autos.simulators

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

Jimmy McKinl

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Jimmy McKinl » Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:00:00

  Get a T2...!!!  <g>

                         Jimmy

Chet Leno

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Chet Leno » Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:00:00

I have looked through the various FAQs and tips and have found nothing
relating to this, so I figured I would let the pros on rec.autos.simulators
take a stab at it.  I know it's a driving question that doesn't have
anything to do with my program not running properly, Papyrus (Sierra) not
releasing a patch quick enough, or $80 virtual paint-jobs, but I'm going to
post anyway... :)

My control setup is a throttle-equiped joystick using the joystick
x-direction for steering control, the throttle for acceleration control, a
button each for braking, reverse, and shifting.  I have found that driving
on super-speedways like Talladega and Michigan works well.  After a few
hours of practice and some tweaking on my setup I can run relatively smooth
laps, stay off the wall most of the time, and maybe even qualify to race at
98-100% AI.  My problem shows up on shorter tracks where braking is
required to turn a smooth lap.  Using the "push-button" break seems to be
very inconsistent.  Sometimes I mash the button and the car slows
dramatically (140-->100 mph in a second or two).  Other times it takes much
longer, usually resulting in my right-front fender becoming intimately
aquainted with the wall around mid-turn.  I have experimented to see if it
is a turn-dependent phenomena, but it seems to be unrelated to wether or
not I have started my turn.  I have also tried not using "shift help" to
try to get more consistent braking through downshifting, but more often
then not I end up with a blown engine after a few laps using this
technique.

I considered changing my control setup to have braking as the y-direction
on my joystick, keeping steering on the x-direction and acceleration on the
throttle.  This seems like it would be the more difficult option, since
it's nice to only have my joystick hand concentrate on steering.  Steering
AND braking on one hand would require 2D control.  What do other N2 drivers
use on their joystick/throttle setup?  Anyone have any suggestions for
smoother braking on short tracks?  I'm sure they would be loads of fun to
run in a crowd (last weekend's Food City race at Bristol being good
evidence), I just can't run a consistent lap.

Chet.

Jim Sokolo

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Jim Sokolo » Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:00:00



Don't bother trying to use engine braking to decelerate the car. The
engine is for GOING. The brakes are for stopping... :-)

The way the digital brake controls work is: over a series of
simulation "ticks," if the brake button is pushed, disable the
throttle, and for each successive tick, increase the brake pressure
starting at 0% up to 100% brakes. (I don't recall how long this takes,
but I'm guessing around 1/3rd of a second.) (By the way, if it's truly
a digital button, "mashing" and gently pressing are no different,
except for the wear on your finger and the button...)

To be honest, I'd be inclined to try ditching the throttle axis
altogether and use a button for gas and another button for brake.
(Same low pass filtering is in effect for throttle when it's digital.
Brake always overrides gas.)

---Jim

Dana Baile

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Dana Baile » Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Just go to Sam's club and pick up a Thrustmaster GP1 for $79.  A
joystick just doesn't cut it for a good driving sim, it doesn't do the
game justice.  This is a small price to pay to improve your enjoyment of
the game 100% at least.

DLB

Keith Meye

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Keith Meye » Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:00:00


> The way the digital brake controls work is: over a series of
> simulation "ticks," if the brake button is pushed, disable the
> throttle, and for each successive tick, increase the brake pressure
> starting at 0% up to 100% brakes. (I don't recall how long this takes,
> but I'm guessing around 1/3rd of a second.) (By the way, if it's truly
> a digital button, "mashing" and gently pressing are no different,
> except for the wear on your finger and the button...)

> To be honest, I'd be inclined to try ditching the throttle axis
> altogether and use a button for gas and another button for brake.
> (Same low pass filtering is in effect for throttle when it's digital.
> Brake always overrides gas.)

> ---Jim

Does the same apply to ICR2?

Thanks,
Keith
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Jim Sokolo

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Jim Sokolo » Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:00:00

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:20:02 -0400, Keith Meyer



>> To be honest, I'd be inclined to try ditching the throttle axis
>> altogether and use a button for gas and another button for brake.
>> (Same low pass filtering is in effect for throttle when it's digital.
>> Brake always overrides gas.)

>Does the same apply to ICR2?

Yes. It applies to all Papyrus sims since IndyCar1 (and it probably
applies to the 1989 game, Indy500: The Simulation, but since I'm
pretty sure you're not playing that... :-) )

---Jim Sokoloff

Chet Leno

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Chet Leno » Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:00:00



Point taken.  Most of the responses to my question ran along these lines.
Perhaps a visit to Sam's is in order.

Thanks to everyone who had a comment/suggestion,

Chet.

Carl Cla

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Carl Cla » Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:00:00



I'm a neophyte myself,  but I have found that I have better control
using a button for throttle and a button for brakes. If I keep the
throttle depressed and apply the brake I have found that this
technique gives me better control than coming off the gas and then
going on the brakes.  But my experience suggests ( I am very
inexperienced) that no technique will make up for coming too fast into
the turn. I have to find a general brake point and line for each turn
and then of course the experience of when and how to modify these
during the race with traffic. This last is what I can't do very well.

God  Bless,  

Carl  

Al Kickuras

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Al Kickuras » Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:00:00



I beg to differ with you.  I went out and spent my $80 on a T2 from
Thrustmaster and I hate it.  My reaction time is sooooo much quicker
with the joystick.  The only track I use it for is Talladega because I
don't even think about braking there.

Chet Leno

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Chet Leno » Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:00:00

That's the first time I've heard someone suggest that a T2 wasn't the way
to go.  Since I certainly don't want to start a T2 vs. joystick war, I'll
change the subject by telling my solution to the original problem
(inconsistent braking with a brake "button" defined on a joystick).  I
figured out last night that my problem was improper throttle calibration.
It seems that there is a big difference in deceleration between slamming on
the breaks with 0% throttle compared to 1-5% throttle.  Sometimes my
joystick throttle would make it all the way back to 0%, and other times it
wouldn't quite make it (maybe I would put more reverse-pressure on the stop
than others).  Since I calibrate my throttle on the joystick from "stop to
stop", 0% throttle is most likely the last little bit that might even
require extra pressure.  So I simply recalibrated my joystick, but this
time leaving a little extra space to make sure full-back was 0%.  Bingo, my
braking suddenly became consistent, problem solved.  This is similiar to
the same fix folks suggest for FULL throttle to make sure a little bit of
joystick/pedal potentiometer drift doesn't result in 99% power down the
straightaways.

I'm happy to report I'm now able to run Loudin with consistent 31.xx second
times and good control in traffic.  I'm very pleased (it's probably one of
my favorite tracks now), thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

Now if I could just figure out Bristol.  I still feel like I'm racing
around the inside of a toilet bowl... :)

Chet.

Mike Fraz

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Mike Fraz » Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:00:00




>>Just go to Sam's club and pick up a Thrustmaster GP1 for $79.  A
>>joystick just doesn't cut it for a good driving sim, it doesn't do the
>>game justice.  This is a small price to pay to improve your enjoyment of
>>the game 100% at least.

>>DLB
>I beg to differ with you.  I went out and spent my $80 on a T2 from
>Thrustmaster and I hate it.  My reaction time is sooooo much quicker
>with the joystick.  The only track I use it for is Talladega because I
>don't even think about braking there.

With a T2, my tires have begun to last at LEAST 10 laps longer on all
tracks.  The Joystick/keyboard combo worked for me quite well, but the
T2 adds so much more realism to the game that is insane.  At first I
didnt like the T2 because it was a totally different feel, but I ask
you this: how long did you play around with the T2 before you gave up?

Mike Frazer
#11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN
Prime Time Motorsports


Mike Grand

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Mike Grand » Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:00:00

I think you'll find that everyone drives different. I had a T1 and
couldn't use it . I had a T2 and it was, for me , no better. I use a $7
joypad and am very competative with it. I have since purchased a GP1 and
have improved my times and consistency at some of the larger tracks, but
I still use the trusty old $7 joypad on the short tracks and road
courses. Some people have trouble with the pedals on the T2, myself
included, and find the GP2 hand controls much better and I haven't
broken a spring yet.

              Mike Grandy


> > >Just go to Sam's club and pick up a Thrustmaster GP1 for $79.  A
> > >joystick just doesn't cut it for a good driving sim, it doesn't do the
> > >game justice.  This is a small price to pay to improve your enjoyment of
> > >the game 100% at least.

> > I beg to differ with you.  I went out and spent my $80 on a T2 from
> > Thrustmaster and I hate it.  My reaction time is sooooo much quicker
> > with the joystick.  The only track I use it for is Talladega because I
> > don't even think about braking there.

> That's the first time I've heard someone suggest that a T2 wasn't the way
> to go.  Since I certainly don't want to start a T2 vs. joystick war, I'll
> change the subject by telling my solution to the original problem
> (inconsistent braking with a brake "button" defined on a joystick).  I
> figured out last night that my problem was improper throttle calibration.
> It seems that there is a big difference in deceleration between slamming on
> the breaks with 0% throttle compared to 1-5% throttle.  Sometimes my
> joystick throttle would make it all the way back to 0%, and other times it
> wouldn't quite make it (maybe I would put more reverse-pressure on the stop
> than others).  Since I calibrate my throttle on the joystick from "stop to
> stop", 0% throttle is most likely the last little bit that might even
> require extra pressure.  So I simply recalibrated my joystick, but this
> time leaving a little extra space to make sure full-back was 0%.  Bingo, my
> braking suddenly became consistent, problem solved.  This is similiar to
> the same fix folks suggest for FULL throttle to make sure a little bit of
> joystick/pedal potentiometer drift doesn't result in 99% power down the
> straightaways.

> I'm happy to report I'm now able to run Loudin with consistent 31.xx second
> times and good control in traffic.  I'm very pleased (it's probably one of
> my favorite tracks now), thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

> Now if I could just figure out Bristol.  I still feel like I'm racing
> around the inside of a toilet bowl... :)

> Chet.

Nigel Nichol

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Nigel Nichol » Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:00:00

I would say it is just a matter of getting used to what you
use as a means of control. I built my own steering/pedals and
find that using a joystick to differcult now as it is to
sensative and I spend more time trying to correct an
over-correction due to a in-correct line into a turn. Does
this sound correct to you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

--

Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports
Nascar Coruba & Coke Chevy
Hamilton
New Zealand

Jason Mond

N2 Driving Question:Smooth braking on short tracks

by Jason Mond » Thu, 24 Apr 1997 04:00:00





> >>Just go to Sam's club and pick up a Thrustmaster GP1 for $79.  A
> >>joystick just doesn't cut it for a good driving sim, it doesn't do the
> >>game justice.  This is a small price to pay to improve your enjoyment of
> >>the game 100% at least.

> >>DLB
> >I beg to differ with you.  I went out and spent my $80 on a T2 from
> >Thrustmaster and I hate it.  My reaction time is sooooo much quicker
> >with the joystick.  The only track I use it for is Talladega because I
> >don't even think about braking there.

Ahh,  you might try using your left foot for the brake (the pros do it!)
You will find it makes the T2 (or whatever wheel your using) FUN!!!

Aside: Nascar (on TV) has some wild camera positions.  I seen left-foot
       braking on the foot cam.  Now thats really getting into it.

I used the T2 on Monster Truck Madness and thought the joystick was
better.
After giving the T2 a second try (by this time I had my left foot
braking
all practiced up!) I found that the T2 was MUCH more enjoyable.

--
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