rec.autos.simulators

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

Michael Barlo

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by Michael Barlo » Mon, 08 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> After 2 days of playing the DTR demo both on and offline I went to a league
> GPL race at Spa. I had an absolute blast slinging my Cooper around in fine 4
> wheel drifts through Eau Rouge and Burneville. The Masta kink did not seem
> nearly as terrible as it usually does. In all the car just seemed much more
> solidly planted on the road and the corrections were easy. Barring a couple
> of offs caused more by excess enthusiasm  than car troubles I had my best
> race there in a long time ( no small feat when you're a natural midpacker).
> I attribute a lot of this to the delicacy of car control (especially
> throttle) required to get the most out of the DTR cars. Also after DTR
> getting sideways in GPL doesn't seem quite so hard to deal with. Granted it
> may not be the fastest way around but its nice to know that its easier to
> recover from errors. GPL is still number 1 for me but DTR has some real
> charms too . :)

> David ( happily sideways)

        were you drifting through the corners or were you doing a controlled
power slide?  I did notice 99% of the drivers on DTR were doing
controlled power slides, that's why I ask.  Just to be sure you're not
confusing the two.
--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Racing online with the help of......

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David Er

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by David Er » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

After 2 days of playing the DTR demo both on and offline I went to a league
GPL race at Spa. I had an absolute blast slinging my Cooper around in fine 4
wheel drifts through Eau Rouge and Burneville. The Masta kink did not seem
nearly as terrible as it usually does. In all the car just seemed much more
solidly planted on the road and the corrections were easy. Barring a couple
of offs caused more by excess enthusiasm  than car troubles I had my best
race there in a long time ( no small feat when you're a natural midpacker).
I attribute a lot of this to the delicacy of car control (especially
throttle) required to get the most out of the DTR cars. Also after DTR
getting sideways in GPL doesn't seem quite so hard to deal with. Granted it
may not be the fastest way around but its nice to know that its easier to
recover from errors. GPL is still number 1 for me but DTR has some real
charms too . :)

David ( happily sideways)

Jan Verschuere

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Took me a while to get used to the high speeds again, but you got a point
there....

Not one of my best showings there, but it turned out ok for going in cold.

Jan.(not too much sideways, thanks!)
----

Jan Verschuere

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Aha!! -Another interesting insight into Dirt Track Racing technique may be
present here.... care to elaborate Mike?

Jan.
----

David Er

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by David Er » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

The benefit I was trying to express was my new found comfort at travel in a
direction other than that indicated by the longitudinal axis of the car. I
wasn't trying to say that the actual techniques of racing in DTR are
directly applicable to GPL since they are , of course, entirely different
forms of racing. However, like all types of racing, competeing involves
running at the edge of the traction envelope. In DTR that edge occurs at a
relatively slow speed and is encountered much more often. DTR's edge is also
more forgiving from a control point of view if not from a lap time point of
view. Unlike some others that have posted here I find that DTR does give
clues (subtle ones) as to the traction state of the tires. GPL has
*excellent* clues and the envelope edge is found at a much higher speed and
the transition from fast to disaster is more abrupt. "Sideways" is a
relative term since getting all crossed up in GPL would barely constitute a
deviation from a straight line in DTR. So I'm not pitching the GPL car into
the corner entrance the same way that I rotate the DTR car in but I do find
that the smoothness learned in GPL is also applicable to DTR.

David (who races all  kinds of stuff)



> > After 2 days of playing the DTR demo both on and offline I went to a
league
> > GPL race at Spa. I had an absolute blast slinging my Cooper around in
fine 4
> > wheel drifts through Eau Rouge and Burneville. The Masta kink did not
seem
> > nearly as terrible as it usually does. In all the car just seemed much
more
> > solidly planted on the road and the corrections were easy. Barring a
couple
> > of offs caused more by excess enthusiasm  than car troubles I had my
best
> > race there in a long time ( no small feat when you're a natural
midpacker).
> > I attribute a lot of this to the delicacy of car control (especially
> > throttle) required to get the most out of the DTR cars. Also after DTR
> > getting sideways in GPL doesn't seem quite so hard to deal with. Granted
it
> > may not be the fastest way around but its nice to know that its easier
to
> > recover from errors. GPL is still number 1 for me but DTR has some real
> > charms too . :)

> > David ( happily sideways)

> were you drifting through the corners or were you doing a controlled
> power slide?  I did notice 99% of the drivers on DTR were doing
> controlled power slides, that's why I ask.  Just to be sure you're not
> confusing the two.
> --
> =========================================
> Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
> =========================================
> http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/

> Racing online with the help of......

> Race Communications Association
> Holodyne Engineering
> Mystic Music
> (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Michael Barlo

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by Michael Barlo » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> Aha!! -Another interesting insight into Dirt Track Racing technique may be
> present here.... care to elaborate Mike?

> Jan.
> ----
> Michael Barlow wrote...
> > <Snip>
> > were you drifting through the corners or were you doing a controlled
> > power slide?  I did notice 99% of the drivers on DTR were doing
> > controlled power slides, that's why I ask.  Just to be sure you're not
> > confusing the two.

Bob Curtin has the right idea in his post....

It's difficult to explain, and even more difficult to do consistently,
but I'll
give it a try.  I'm no expert, and I've only done it in real life on
motorcycles, but the technique is pretty straightforward.  One thing
that may be
working you up is the steering ratio in the demo -- it's set to 40.1
degrees,
which, though you certainly need quick steering, is set way too high for
me.

Try to picture yourself driving in a parking lot with hard-packed snow.
If you
try to turn a car that is going too fast for the arc you've chosen,
you'll
simply plow ahead.  If you feed in some throttle, the rear end will
swing around
and start propelling the car in a tangent to your original line.  This
does two
things.  First, it slows the car.  Second, it alters the direction of
the car.
If you back the throttle off so that you maintain that angle, the car
will
travel in a more or less straight line and at an angle that is more than
your
original line but less than the angle formed by your car and your
original
line.  Basic stuff.

My technique for entering a turn is to roll off the throttle to the
point where
I'm going to maintain my slide, and to use the steering to induce the
necessary
oversteer.  You can jump off the throttle and use less steering to get
the
oversteer, I find it slows the car too much but for me it's harder to
find that
throttle "sweet spot" and consequently I find it harder to be consistent
and
smooth.

The trick in dirt track racing is to maintain the best slip angle AND
maximum
traction of the powered (rear) wheels.  If you feed in too much throttle
your
rear wheels will break traction and the rear end will start to come
around.  If
you correct with steering input alone, the car will lose forward speed
and
either maintain sideways motion, or worse, slow down.  The whole idea
is, with
subtle steering input and throttle control, to maintain maximum FORWARD
motion
consistent with the line you're trying to maintain.

As you said, the sound kind of makes keeping track of subtleties in your
engine
speed, but you do have the tach to watch.  If you see your engine
maxxing out
the tach, you know you're not getting the forward speed you need to come
squirting out of the turn.  That transition from turn to straight, where
you
feed in the throttle to maximum and straighten the car out with steering
input
is really crucial to fast lap times.  Do it too qickly and you loop.  Do
it too
slowly and you get passed.

One thing.  Folks on this NG have scoffed and said that they can
maintain full
throttle all around every track.  If you're doing this, you're not going
to win
against really competent drivers (And I'm not one of them.).  If you can
do
that, you need to drop down a gear so that you have the capability to
break the
rear wheels loose at any point in the turn.  At no point during your
slide
should your rear wheels have full traction, because that means you're
oscillating between slide and full, straight-line motion.

I know I didn't explain this very well, but I hope it helps some.

--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/

Racing online with the help of......

Race Communications Association
Holodyne Engineering
Mystic Music
(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Don Scurlo

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by Don Scurlo » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00



I think that there is a great deal of cross over in the technique.
It's fairly well accepted that the dirt track origins of so many
American motorcycle roadracers: Roberts,Spencer Rainey, Lawson,
was a big factor in there success racing 500 GP bikes.  And the same
thing is being said now of the current young lions like the Hayden
brothers.  Kenny Roberts has been teaching Europeans the technique of
sliding a GP bike by having roadracers ride a little dirt track on
100cc mini bikes.  The same thing is being taught here in North America
by some great dirt trackers at the American Super Camp.
Check it out at: http://www.americansupercamp.com
Bikes or cars, it makes no difference.  The dirt makes you comfortable
with a sliding vehicle. Car control is what it's all about.
Speaking of which, the World Rally Championship started on tv this weekend,
those guys are the ultimate when it comes to car control.

--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

Bruce Kennewel

Unforeseen side benefit of DTR :)

by Bruce Kennewel » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

In essence, there is ***-all difference except terminology!

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------



> were you drifting through the corners or were you doing a controlled
> power slide?  I did notice 99% of the drivers on DTR were doing
> controlled power slides, that's why I ask.  Just to be sure you're not
> confusing the two.

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