rec.autos.simulators

by **jbo..** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I posted this as part of another thread, but I wanted to bring it out
as a separate thread to help spur a little discussion. Since
developers and publishers sometimes lurk in the newsgroup, maybe we can
help make a difference on the issue of in-car views.

At any rate, in-car views are often a major pet peeve of mine --
developers seem to think that we LIKE looking at a dashboard rather
than the road. As a "sim racer," I DO enjoy SEEING a dashboard, rather
than arcade-like heads-up displays, BUT I don't need to see UNDER the
dash as well.

Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but you can
also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate inside the
car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

Typically, the bumper-cam gives the best sensation of speed, but the
dash is necessary for that "in-car" sim racer feeling.

Best compromise: DTR -- if you pay attention, you'll see that there
are not one but TWO in-car views in DTR; one with a "normal" in-car
dash (read "high" dash/hood), and one "low" in-car dash view (with the
dash pushed to the bottom of the screen for maximum forward visibility
and enhanced sensation of speed). This was included by Ratbag at my
suggestion </blowing my own horn>, and I wish more developers would
show this level of attention to detail. (Ratbag has included a VERY
nice "in-car" view in Leadfoot, BTW.)

I like the in-car view in NFSPU from an aesthetic standpoint (nicely-
done), but if I REALLY wanted to see ALL that much of the dash, I'd
visit a dealership and just sit in the car for a while. Now, if I were
to take one out for a test drive, you can bet that the ROAD would
receive more of my attention (and focus) than the dash, regardless of
how nice the gauges/dials/wheel/dashboard were.

I think GPL's "in-car" view works very nicely, BTW -- open-wheel sims
seem to keep in-car dash display low, which helps a lot with visibility
and sense of speed, IMO.

If only they'd figure out that this works well with "conventional" car
sims, too.

Just my $0.02.

-- JB

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

by **L_NiN** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Any ideas when we can expect to see Leadfoot? I am very e***d to see how
they can run with that idea : )

> I posted this as part of another thread, but I wanted to bring it out
> as a separate thread to help spur a little discussion. Since
> developers and publishers sometimes lurk in the newsgroup, maybe we can
> help make a difference on the issue of in-car views.

> At any rate, in-car views are often a major pet peeve of mine --
> developers seem to think that we LIKE looking at a dashboard rather
> than the road. As a "sim racer," I DO enjoy SEEING a dashboard, rather
> than arcade-like heads-up displays, BUT I don't need to see UNDER the
> dash as well.

> Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but you can
> also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate inside the
> car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

> Typically, the bumper-cam gives the best sensation of speed, but the
> dash is necessary for that "in-car" sim racer feeling.

> Best compromise: DTR -- if you pay attention, you'll see that there
> are not one but TWO in-car views in DTR; one with a "normal" in-car
> dash (read "high" dash/hood), and one "low" in-car dash view (with the
> dash pushed to the bottom of the screen for maximum forward visibility
> and enhanced sensation of speed). This was included by Ratbag at my
> suggestion </blowing my own horn>, and I wish more developers would
> show this level of attention to detail. (Ratbag has included a VERY
> nice "in-car" view in Leadfoot, BTW.)

> I like the in-car view in NFSPU from an aesthetic standpoint (nicely-
> done), but if I REALLY wanted to see ALL that much of the dash, I'd
> visit a dealership and just sit in the car for a while. Now, if I were
> to take one out for a test drive, you can bet that the ROAD would
> receive more of my attention (and focus) than the dash, regardless of
> how nice the gauges/dials/wheel/dashboard were.

> I think GPL's "in-car" view works very nicely, BTW -- open-wheel sims
> seem to keep in-car dash display low, which helps a lot with visibility
> and sense of speed, IMO.

> If only they'd figure out that this works well with "conventional" car
> sims, too.

> Just my $0.02.

> -- JB

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Before you buy.

by **Stephen Ferguso** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

> I think GPL's "in-car" view works very nicely, BTW -- open-wheel sims
> seem to keep in-car dash display low, which helps a lot with visibility
> and sense of speed, IMO.

It works well for me just because it seems to be the view I would get if I
were to sit in the tub. It's a subjective thing, and I agree with you that
the subjective impression of most tin-top in-car views is that the dash
occupies too much space.

Stephen

by **Liutger Franze** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

even worse: SCGT ... that's why I drive it in the
you-see-nothing-but-the-road-view

Lio

by **Eric Busc** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

If you've driven a Winston Cup car you'll realize that the view
offered in N3 is quite generous compared to the real thing. You're
practically sitting on the floorboard with your legs extended straight
out in front of you, much farther back from the dash and windshield
then you are in a typical passenger car. The end result is a driving
position that gives you a view of both your feet and the roof, with
what feels like a small stripe of windshield in between.

Eric

by **Mike Barlo** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

That's a discussion that has been done quite some time ago. In-car,
arcade, sit high, sit low, ect... There is no question that no one view is
the best for everyone and your opinions are just as valid as anyone else's.
However, I prefer to have the point of view of the driver. I.E.; if the
driver were to see under the dash, the dash, and the road out front, that's
what I want to see as that gives me a better perspective of what I would see
if I was behind that wheel. Same with the GPL steering wheel.. some use it
because it helps them drive, some use it because it just looks better, and
others don't use it because they already have a wheel in front of them. To
say that one view *is* the view that should be in every Sim is not talking
about sims, but is talking about *** (in my opinion).

what you like as a POV will be what someone else doesn't like. Take the
in-car view of GPL.. one driver thinks the POV should be a couple inches
higher and that the nose of the car should be visible. I never got behind
the wheel of one of these things so I can only guess that it's the same as
my family car, I can't see the hood so why should I in GPL?

No mater what you do, someone else will say it's wrong.

>I posted this as part of another thread, but I wanted to bring it out
>as a separate thread to help spur a little discussion. Since
>developers and publishers sometimes lurk in the newsgroup, maybe we can
>help make a difference on the issue of in-car views.

>At any rate, in-car views are often a major pet peeve of mine --
>developers seem to think that we LIKE looking at a dashboard rather
>than the road. As a "sim racer," I DO enjoy SEEING a dashboard, rather
>than arcade-like heads-up displays, BUT I don't need to see UNDER the
>dash as well.

>Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but you can
>also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate inside the
>car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

>Typically, the bumper-cam gives the best sensation of speed, but the
>dash is necessary for that "in-car" sim racer feeling.

>Best compromise: DTR -- if you pay attention, you'll see that there
>are not one but TWO in-car views in DTR; one with a "normal" in-car
>dash (read "high" dash/hood), and one "low" in-car dash view (with the
>dash pushed to the bottom of the screen for maximum forward visibility
>and enhanced sensation of speed). This was included by Ratbag at my
>suggestion </blowing my own horn>, and I wish more developers would
>show this level of attention to detail. (Ratbag has included a VERY
>nice "in-car" view in Leadfoot, BTW.)

>I like the in-car view in NFSPU from an aesthetic standpoint (nicely-
>done), but if I REALLY wanted to see ALL that much of the dash, I'd
>visit a dealership and just sit in the car for a while. Now, if I were
>to take one out for a test drive, you can bet that the ROAD would
>receive more of my attention (and focus) than the dash, regardless of
>how nice the gauges/dials/wheel/dashboard were.

>I think GPL's "in-car" view works very nicely, BTW -- open-wheel sims
>seem to keep in-car dash display low, which helps a lot with visibility
>and sense of speed, IMO.

>If only they'd figure out that this works well with "conventional" car
>sims, too.

>Just my $0.02.

>-- JB

>Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>Before you buy.

by **jbo..** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Your argument doesn't hold water (for me, anyway).

Consider this: That "small stripe of windshield" in a Cup car is much,
MUCH larger than the viewing area you get on even a 21" monitor. Plus,
that "small stripe of windshield" also comes with copious amounts of
peripheral vision that you can't even on even the largest monitor. THEN
add in the dash view in a sim, and it gets even worse. On top of that,
you also have to subtract all the "seat of the pants" sensations that
you get in a real car, and you're even MORE handicapped in a sim with
"in-car" views where your view of the road itself is obstructed by WAY
too much dashboard.

See my point?

-- JB

> If you've driven a Winston Cup car you'll realize that the view
> offered in N3 is quite generous compared to the real thing. You're
> practically sitting on the floorboard with your legs extended straight
> out in front of you, much farther back from the dash and windshield
> then you are in a typical passenger car. The end result is a driving
> position that gives you a view of both your feet and the roof, with
> what feels like a small stripe of windshield in between.

> Eric

> > Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but you
> can
> > also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate inside
> the
> > car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **jbo..** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

This is a cop-out response, IMO, and it gives developers license to have
their way with us.

Papy's in-car view offers you the OPTION of turning off the wheel
(something I applaud), and we now have the "roll bar view" to choose
from, too.

DTR gives you MULTIPLE in-car views to choose from, too.

Every good sim should at least offer an in-cockpit view, a "bumper cam"
view, AND an in-car view sans the dashboard display.

The key, I think, is this kind of adaptability to accomodate a wide
variety of preferences.

Just my $0.02.

-- JB

> That's a discussion that has been done quite some time ago. In-car,
> arcade, sit high, sit low, ect... There is no question that no one
view is
> the best for everyone and your opinions are just as valid as anyone
else's.
> However, I prefer to have the point of view of the driver. I.E.; if
the
> driver were to see under the dash, the dash, and the road out front,
that's
> what I want to see as that gives me a better perspective of what I
would see
> if I was behind that wheel. Same with the GPL steering wheel.. some
use it
> because it helps them drive, some use it because it just looks better,
and
> others don't use it because they already have a wheel in front of
them. To
> say that one view *is* the view that should be in every Sim is not
talking
> about sims, but is talking about *** (in my opinion).

> what you like as a POV will be what someone else doesn't like. Take
the
> in-car view of GPL.. one driver thinks the POV should be a couple
inches
> higher and that the nose of the car should be visible. I never got
behind
> the wheel of one of these things so I can only guess that it's the
same as
> my family car, I can't see the hood so why should I in GPL?

> No mater what you do, someone else will say it's wrong.

> >I posted this as part of another thread, but I wanted to bring it out
> >as a separate thread to help spur a little discussion. Since
> >developers and publishers sometimes lurk in the newsgroup, maybe we
can
> >help make a difference on the issue of in-car views.

> >At any rate, in-car views are often a major pet peeve of mine --
> >developers seem to think that we LIKE looking at a dashboard rather
> >than the road. As a "sim racer," I DO enjoy SEEING a dashboard,
rather
> >than arcade-like heads-up displays, BUT I don't need to see UNDER the
> >dash as well.

> >Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but you
can
> >also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate inside the
> >car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

> >Typically, the bumper-cam gives the best sensation of speed, but the
> >dash is necessary for that "in-car" sim racer feeling.

> >Best compromise: DTR -- if you pay attention, you'll see that there
> >are not one but TWO in-car views in DTR; one with a "normal" in-car
> >dash (read "high" dash/hood), and one "low" in-car dash view (with
the
> >dash pushed to the bottom of the screen for maximum forward
visibility
> >and enhanced sensation of speed). This was included by Ratbag at my
> >suggestion </blowing my own horn>, and I wish more developers would
> >show this level of attention to detail. (Ratbag has included a VERY
> >nice "in-car" view in Leadfoot, BTW.)

> >I like the in-car view in NFSPU from an aesthetic standpoint (nicely-
> >done), but if I REALLY wanted to see ALL that much of the dash, I'd
> >visit a dealership and just sit in the car for a while. Now, if I
were
> >to take one out for a test drive, you can bet that the ROAD would
> >receive more of my attention (and focus) than the dash, regardless of
> >how nice the gauges/dials/wheel/dashboard were.

> >I think GPL's "in-car" view works very nicely, BTW -- open-wheel sims
> >seem to keep in-car dash display low, which helps a lot with
visibility
> >and sense of speed, IMO.

> >If only they'd figure out that this works well with "conventional"
car
> >sims, too.

> >Just my $0.02.

> >-- JB

> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> >Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

by **Cliff Roma** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

You are comparing the size of a monitor to the windshield?

Oh geez

> Your argument doesn't hold water (for me, anyway).

> Consider this: That "small stripe of windshield" in a Cup car is much,
> MUCH larger than the viewing area you get on even a 21" monitor. Plus,
> that "small stripe of windshield" also comes with copious amounts of
> peripheral vision that you can't even on even the largest monitor. THEN
> add in the dash view in a sim, and it gets even worse. On top of that,
> you also have to subtract all the "seat of the pants" sensations that
> you get in a real car, and you're even MORE handicapped in a sim with
> "in-car" views where your view of the road itself is obstructed by WAY
> too much dashboard.

> See my point?

> -- JB

> > If you've driven a Winston Cup car you'll realize that the view
> > offered in N3 is quite generous compared to the real thing. You're
> > practically sitting on the floorboard with your legs extended straight
> > out in front of you, much farther back from the dash and windshield
> > then you are in a typical passenger car. The end result is a driving
> > position that gives you a view of both your feet and the roof, with
> > what feels like a small stripe of windshield in between.

> > Eric

> > > Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but you
> > can
> > > also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate inside
> > the
> > > car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

by **Mitch Alatorr** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I could be mistaken but I dont believe you are even talking about
view/perspective with this thread but continuing an ongoing issue you have
between Papy/Ratbag and your bias towards Ratbag games in general. Are you
and Wilshe attatched at the hip? (who's facing forward<g>)

IMO DTR was an ok "game". I played the demo and bought the final product
but within a few days DTR had lost my interest regardless of the incar
view/views. DTR is a game, Papy products are Sims. Again, just my opinion.

Mitch

> This is a cop-out response, IMO, and it gives developers license to have
> their way with us.

> Papy's in-car view offers you the OPTION of turning off the wheel
> (something I applaud), and we now have the "roll bar view" to choose
> from, too.

> DTR gives you MULTIPLE in-car views to choose from, too.

> Every good sim should at least offer an in-cockpit view, a "bumper cam"
> view, AND an in-car view sans the dashboard display.

> The key, I think, is this kind of adaptability to accomodate a wide
> variety of preferences.

> Just my $0.02.

> -- JB

> > That's a discussion that has been done quite some time ago. In-car,
> > arcade, sit high, sit low, ect... There is no question that no one
> view is
> > the best for everyone and your opinions are just as valid as anyone
> else's.
> > However, I prefer to have the point of view of the driver. I.E.; if
> the
> > driver were to see under the dash, the dash, and the road out front,
> that's
> > what I want to see as that gives me a better perspective of what I
> would see
> > if I was behind that wheel. Same with the GPL steering wheel.. some
> use it
> > because it helps them drive, some use it because it just looks better,
> and
> > others don't use it because they already have a wheel in front of
> them. To
> > say that one view *is* the view that should be in every Sim is not
> talking
> > about sims, but is talking about *** (in my opinion).

> > what you like as a POV will be what someone else doesn't like. Take
> the
> > in-car view of GPL.. one driver thinks the POV should be a couple
> inches
> > higher and that the nose of the car should be visible. I never got
> behind
> > the wheel of one of these things so I can only guess that it's the
> same as
> > my family car, I can't see the hood so why should I in GPL?

> > No mater what you do, someone else will say it's wrong.

> > >I posted this as part of another thread, but I wanted to bring it out
> > >as a separate thread to help spur a little discussion. Since
> > >developers and publishers sometimes lurk in the newsgroup, maybe we
> can
> > >help make a difference on the issue of in-car views.

> > >At any rate, in-car views are often a major pet peeve of mine --
> > >developers seem to think that we LIKE looking at a dashboard rather
> > >than the road. As a "sim racer," I DO enjoy SEEING a dashboard,
> rather
> > >than arcade-like heads-up displays, BUT I don't need to see UNDER the
> > >dash as well.

> > >Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but you
> can
> > >also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate inside the
> > >car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

> > >Typically, the bumper-cam gives the best sensation of speed, but the
> > >dash is necessary for that "in-car" sim racer feeling.

> > >Best compromise: DTR -- if you pay attention, you'll see that there
> > >are not one but TWO in-car views in DTR; one with a "normal" in-car
> > >dash (read "high" dash/hood), and one "low" in-car dash view (with
> the
> > >dash pushed to the bottom of the screen for maximum forward
> visibility
> > >and enhanced sensation of speed). This was included by Ratbag at my
> > >suggestion </blowing my own horn>, and I wish more developers would
> > >show this level of attention to detail. (Ratbag has included a VERY
> > >nice "in-car" view in Leadfoot, BTW.)

> > >I like the in-car view in NFSPU from an aesthetic standpoint (nicely-
> > >done), but if I REALLY wanted to see ALL that much of the dash, I'd
> > >visit a dealership and just sit in the car for a while. Now, if I
> were
> > >to take one out for a test drive, you can bet that the ROAD would
> > >receive more of my attention (and focus) than the dash, regardless of
> > >how nice the gauges/dials/wheel/dashboard were.

> > >I think GPL's "in-car" view works very nicely, BTW -- open-wheel sims
> > >seem to keep in-car dash display low, which helps a lot with
> visibility
> > >and sense of speed, IMO.

> > >If only they'd figure out that this works well with "conventional"
> car
> > >sims, too.

> > >Just my $0.02.

> > >-- JB

> > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > >Before you buy.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Before you buy.

by **jbo..** » Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:00

How is this an unfair comparison? Most of us spend tons of money on CPU
and video card upgrades to get the best performance out of our sims,
then we invest in *** controllers (ANY wheel and pedal combo is
*** compared to conventional keyboard/mouse/joystick/gamepad
interface devices), and we do this IN THE QUEST FOR ULTIMATE REALISM
(and, yes, this even applies if we're talking about arcade racers versus
*** sims -- a "realistic" experience is the ultimate goal).

So, even if you're willing to go to those lengths for the sake of
realism and/or fun, you're still stuck with a visual interface that's
maybe only 1/8 to 1/16 the size of what the real-world experience would
give you. THAT is a limitation that we're stuck with, but, frankly, how
many people are willing to settle for a 14" monitor for ***? Most
people in this newsgroup probably have at least 17", 19", or larger
monitors, I would wager, in the quest to help make their sim racing
experience as realistic as possible (read that "in order to make their
visual interface that much closer to the size of an actual WINDSHIELD).

So, given that, where am I off base comparing the size of a
computer monitor to a car's windshield when we're discussing automobile
simulators??

Furthermore, how many really great driving games (that would include
sims and arcade racers) have been developed for the Game Boy?

In this instance, size does matter, and it is fair to compare the size
of a typical computer monitor to the size of the real-world viewing
area when talking about a SIMULATION.

-- JB

> You are comparing the size of a monitor to the windshield?

> Oh geez

> > Your argument doesn't hold water (for me, anyway).

> > Consider this: That "small stripe of windshield" in a Cup car is
much,
> > MUCH larger than the viewing area you get on even a 21" monitor.
Plus,
> > that "small stripe of windshield" also comes with copious amounts of
> > peripheral vision that you can't even on even the largest monitor.
THEN
> > add in the dash view in a sim, and it gets even worse. On top of
that,
> > you also have to subtract all the "seat of the pants" sensations
that
> > you get in a real car, and you're even MORE handicapped in a sim
with
> > "in-car" views where your view of the road itself is obstructed by
WAY
> > too much dashboard.

> > See my point?

> > -- JB

> > > If you've driven a Winston Cup car you'll realize that the view
> > > offered in N3 is quite generous compared to the real thing. You're
> > > practically sitting on the floorboard with your legs extended
straight
> > > out in front of you, much farther back from the dash and
windshield
> > > then you are in a typical passenger car. The end result is a
driving
> > > position that gives you a view of both your feet and the roof,
with
> > > what feels like a small stripe of windshield in between.

> > > Eric

> > > > Case in point: N3 -- you not only see the TOP of the dash, but
you
> > > can
> > > > also see the BOTTOM of the dash, and THEN some real estate
inside
> > > the
> > > > car BELOW the dash. Gimme a break!

> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

rec.autos.simulators

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves

In-car views -- observations and pet peeves