rec.autos.simulators

I've played GP2 for few days, here are my comments about this game.

Graphics: Super in SVGA mode, but the thing is, how many people can run
this with everything turns on in SVGA mode and 25 frame rate? I love to
see the sponsors and the shadowing is superior.

Don't know if people noticed this: When you spun your car out and you
wait, a course marshall will push or pull the car to the side. Come on,
how can one single marshall can actually pull a race car? What about the
crane? I don't see the crane when it pulls up the car! What the f-1 cars
can fly now?

What about the***pit? It downloaded some on the net and they look nice
'The MOMO' one. However, I hate to see every***pit got the same graphic,
and the steering wheel is not moving either like IndyCar 1!

Course Marshalls waving flags are good, but we can mow them down also! Not.

Graphics somehow have a lot of problem in this game. For sure it is not
perfect but something should have been done by the designers.

Sound: Well the sound is okay. However, where is the engine sound from the
other cars? What about every car go the same V-10 sound?

Gameplay is good but something just not real at all. There are tons of
problem with the game and I feel this game is overrated at this point. I
love Formula One but I don't see this game can fulfill my satisfaction.
Its a good game but not a great game in my own opinion.

Give me some feedback.

Thats not an argument. Would you prefer a graphic engine a la indycar ? You
could play it with 25 frames SVGA and no option to switch on some graphics,
if you get new hardware.

But I still hope for a special version for 3d accelerator (Voodoo).Thats the
only way, to get these framerates today. But I think, there is no chance.

Total unimportant for me. Thats not part of the main gameplay.

Take some good raceing. I dont have the time, to look at the steering wheel.
All I see are the rev lights and sometimes for a 1/10 of a second, the split
times or speed.

Do you really think, thats important for a raceing simulation ?

There are some polygon errors at the track. That should be fixed.

Man, I love this sound. :-)

Seems, that you hoped for a new Need of Speed. Sorry, thats not the way, this
game was announced to be. Like many other raceing sim fans, it doesnt
interest me, if I can cut the Marshalls into pieces, or if the crane picks my
car out of the gravel bed instead of a marshall.

What really sucks, is that there is no warm up lap, as in F1. No weather
changes, like in real life. No real black flag, no blue flag, no last lap
after 1h qualifying, no quick start, no park ferme.... No seperate graphic
and Joystick setups for each track, no damage options. This extras, thrown
out, to bring the game out, as early as possible, are the real problems.

But what really most sucks, is that Gabriel from MPS, has not answered the
question, if MPS/Geoff is planing to bring out at least an update with the
announced options. I dont beleave on an upgrade or 3D version.

Cheers Thomas

--- Get up, dive down, no problem

Exactly what I am suspicious about. Can racers hear that in a
real-live race? I mean, the engine is inches away from your helmet, I
can't imagine you can hear much of anything except for extremely close
cars, or explosions.

Man, I am beginning to feel very alone in this newsgroup! I *love*
GP2, and see very, very few flaws with it, and they are minor. About
mirrors- I like the blind-spots, they are what I expect. And I don't
think the real racers have the time or even freedom physically to move
their heads much to get around the blind spots.

Again, I feel like the odd-guy-out. I only hear people dissing GP2
around here, either because they love F1 so much or have waited so
long that the game doesn't do what they imagined/hoped for. I
personally am much more of an indycar fan in real life; I love
same-lap passing and close races- things which F1 (even properly in
GP2) really doesn't have often enough. I love the non-pompous, fresh
quality of Indycar; no "$10,000 fine for spitting on the track" kind
of crap.

About the sim quality- to me, ICR2 is too mushy, I don't think real
indycars act like that, they certainly don't jerk-around or sound like
ICR2 cars. You can't throw the cars around like racers really do. It
is a VERY challenging sim, and that is great, but without good
feedback (like precise tire and engine-load sounds), I find it often
irritating. Even though generally I'd say I am a better ICR2 driver
than GP2- much, much more practice on ICR2.

I'm not totally dissing ICR2 as much as I am expressing the belief
that it is a generation back from GP2. I use both sims. Above all, the
are radically different- GP2 focuses on a totally different style of
setup from ICR2. I personally feel they are equally detailed setup
approaches, just different detail.

I am more than happy to hear these other opinions, of course. I am
just surprised at how differently I seem to be seeing things than
almost everybody else writing here. I'm glad I am so satisfied with
GP2- there is no shame in that! I rarely am with computer games.

: <...>
: >: Graphics somehow have a lot of problem in this game. For sure it is not
: >: perfect but something should have been done by the designers.

: >Strongly agree.  Although this isn't technically a "bug" it is one of
: >the biggest problems with GP2.  It is a severe programming/design flaw.

: I don't get it- what are you guys referring to. I race in VGA with no
: details- am I missing a flaw?

The flaw I am talking about is the extreme slowing down of time when the
graphics is overloaded.  I do not care for this design for a simulation.
However, I don't think there is a perfect answer to this, other than 3d
accelerators.  Also I am concerned that GP2 speeds up time when the CPU
Occupancy drops below 100%.  I haven't taken the time yet to fully
investigate this so I am still reserving judgement.  However, I do
believe that Geoff's approach to dealing time flow is a flaw.

: Exactly what I am suspicious about. Can racers hear that in a
: real-live race? I mean, the engine is inches away from your helmet, I
: can't imagine you can hear much of anything except for extremely close
: cars, or explosions.

I guess this one is still open to debate.  There are at least 2 schools
of thought on this.  Either it's a sim and we don't include anything
that doesn't really happen.  Or, it's a sim, but since we can't provide
all of the feedback and clues a real driver experiences we can add some
"non-realistic" feedback to fill in the holes.  You choose the one
school, I like the other.  No biggie.

: >Speaking of mirrors, I think the limited view in GP2's mirrors is
: >another design flaw.  I know that NASCAR & ICR2 have exaggerated ones.
: >However, in real life the driver can adjust their head to change the
: >view from the mirrors.  Try it out in you real car.  Just moving your
: >head a little will adjust what you can see in you rear-view mirrors.

: Man, I am beginning to feel very alone in this newsgroup! I *love*
: GP2, and see very, very few flaws with it, and they are minor. About
: mirrors- I like the blind-spots, they are what I expect. And I don't
: think the real racers have the time or even freedom physically to move
: their heads much to get around the blind spots.

Well certain drivers were/are well known for making sure they didn't use
their mirrors to find anybody in the their "blind spots" :-)  However, I
have seen the drivers adjust their view before they approach the turns
if they know someone may be close to them.  Again, this goes back to the
2 schools of thought.

: Again, I feel like the odd-guy-out. I only hear people dissing GP2
: around here, either because they love F1 so much or have waited so
: long that the game doesn't do what they imagined/hoped for. I
: personally am much more of an indycar fan in real life; I love
: same-lap passing and close races- things which F1 (even properly in
: GP2) really doesn't have often enough. I love the non-pompous, fresh
: quality of Indycar; no "$10,000 fine for spitting on the track" kind
: of crap.

I am not dissing any of the sims.  They all have their strengths and
their weaknesses.  I would like to believe that those who are interested
in providing us with racing sims listen in on occasion.  If this is
true, I only feel that we should speak out on what we like and dislike
about the products.  That was sorta what r.a.s. was started for.  No
product can be perfect.  No product can please everybody in every
aspect.  However, by voicing our likes and dislikes we can get closer to
the perfect sim.

So to be fair, I will list some of the things I really like about GP2.  I
really like the detail that is available for setting up the car.  The
packers, ride height, and dampers add a new diminsion in auto racing for
me.  I have been playing with the dampers and have noticed how an
adjustment can gain me some time in one portion of the track and takes
away time in another.  I now have to make a decision on which approach
is going to give me the best overall time.

I love the curves and the bumps.  I have always hated ICRx and NASCAR
for their lack of the same.  I want to try a Michael Andretti "Toad's
Wild Ride" at Surfers'.  But I can't because Papyrus has robbed me of
this opportunity.  That's not a diss, that's a "I would like to see."

[snipped an almost dis of ICR2 :-)]

: I'm not totally dissing ICR2 as much as I am expressing the belief
: that it is a generation back from GP2. I use both sims. Above all, the
: are radically different- GP2 focuses on a totally different style of
: setup from ICR2. I personally feel they are equally detailed setup
: approaches, just different detail.

I wouldn't say a full generation.  But, hey ICR2 is almost a year old
now.  Besides we know that alot of the "technology" for ICR2 was
borrowed from NASCAR which is what, 2 years old?

: I am more than happy to hear these other opinions, of course. I am
: just surprised at how differently I seem to be seeing things than
: almost everybody else writing here. I'm glad I am so satisfied with
: GP2- there is no shame in that! I rarely am with computer games.

And I'm glad to hear yours.  It helps keep mine in the proper
perspective.  

I am not dis-satisfied with GP2 any more than I am with ICR2 and NASCAR.
I guess I'm just greedy.  I want more.  Until then, I'll enjoy them all.
And I will waste way too much time with GP2, just ask my wife ;-)

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 18:52:51 -0700, Santosh Bhat

Tony

I've done a small amount of research into the "speeding up time"
aspect. The figures were only based on a small number of laps
(quickraces at Silverstone) with varying degrees of graphic detail.

All testing done on a P133 with Matrox card:

Graphics                Average         Speed-up
                        processor
                        occupancy

VGA, no details         40%             3.9%
VGA, all details        80%             3.7%
SVGA, some details      80%             3.2%

Now these are very rough figures & far from definitive, but I have
drawn tentative conclusions from them:

(i)     GP2 _does_ compress time somewhat
(ii)    It assumes that PO will occasionally rise above 100%
(iii)   The speed up is designed to compensate for this
(iv)    The speed up does not particularly depend on how much below
        100% the PO is

Since we can't be expected to run at an average of 100% (anything over
100% destroys racing rhythm) I guess we will just have to put up with
the game being slightly faster than it should be. This is a major
design flaw.

If I am right, though, at least adding faster hardware won't make the
situation worse.

If I get time I will try investigating with rather longer race
distances and at different tracks.

BTW: the texturing in VGA makes a huge difference, it is really
difficult to race with no details as I can't tell where the apexes
are, but it is much clearer and actually rather good looking with all
textures on.

Richard

Thats why we bought the game. Everybody wants all graphics turn on, and
that's why the designer made the grpahics.

Even I turned on everything in SVGA mode, I still couldn't see the crane.
I know somebody don't even care about the crane, but if the designer can't
make it right, the don't make the crane at all. Also the course marshell,
just put one more marshell in the towing process and make it much better.
It is part of the game for some people.

I somewhat agree.

Okay, drivers might not hear the other cars' engines. However, at least I
can identify the sound of V-10 and V-8. Benetton and McLaren tuned
differently, and SEGA CD's Formula One from two years ago got this
feature. Tyrell got the sick, boring sound with the Yamaha engine...

And what about weather? How can Formula One does not have weather
involves? Microprose should really think about this.

We should keep debating about this game, and it will last a long time.

I agree with most of what you have said, there are these few irks
in GP2 that keep it back, a lot of this you would think Geoff Crammond
would have noticed if he had looked at Papyrus' sims.

I would also have to agree with you about us transferring our love of
F1 to the game, I know my friends have pretty much wrote me off as a nutcase
for refusing to go out to a pub on a Saturday night because I want to be able
to wake up at 3:30am Sunday morning to catch the F1 race on TV.
And for the last year or two I have been racing ICR2 with the F1 drivers
carset installed.

So I do realize that I may be a bit more forgiving with GP2 over it's
faults while I am having so much fun tailing Schumacher through the
Parabolica.
But hopefully these things can be fixed. The parts of GP2 that I think are
groundbreaking for an auto sim are the computer AI, and in a smaller way
the car physics model. As far are the physics model, I love the way I can
bounce the car off the curbs, and use them to stop a long understeer, I
also love the wheel locking, the way that oversteers can be corrected etc.

The computer AI is better than anything I have played before. I remember
playing ICR1 for a long time and loving it, but once Nascar came out and I
had a taste of the improved AI, I could no longer tolerate the dumb moves
by the computer cars in ICR1. Come to think of it, it was the same thing
with F1GP1, once I got used to the smarter ICR computer drivers I could no
longer tolerate F1GP's idiots behind the wheel.

Now we have F1GP2, I love how the opponents will pressure you if you are
holding them up, and if the opposite occurs you can sometimes help to
make Damon Hill go off in a chicane by faking a passing move on him.

So for now, I will keep playing both GP2 and ICR2 and recognise both for
their strengths, and I am eagerly awaiting Nascar2 hopefully they have
upgraded the AI once again, then maybe I can really take part in some bump
drafting, instead of having to worry about the AI cars tendency to slam
their brakes on at the improper times for a turn with a resulting crunch as
slam into their rear end.

I think you hit that on the nail, calling F1 a *** series, I have used
the term "***" when trying to explain to a friend the difference between
Indycar and F1.

Cheers.

--John
--
-------------------
  John (Joao) Silva
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/~jsilva
  Seattle, Washington USA.

You are jokeing ? The sound of ICR2 is/was a big disappointment for me. Even
the old ICR1 sound was much better. The sound is more an electrical
coffee-mill, than a raceing car. It is also very hard to hear the shift
points in ICR2. Dont ask me, how often I killed my engine cause of this (No
Problem in ICR1). I think, that was not a problem  of my driveing style, I
won my championship season at 104 percent and my laptimes were only between
0.5 - 1.5 sec from the worldrecords (All before the patch).

On the other hand, I would like to kill my engine in GP2 with overreving.

Cheers Thomas
--- Get up, dive down, no problem

|>>
|>> I've played GP2 for few days, here are my comments about this game.
|>>
|>> Graphics: Super in SVGA mode, but the thing is, how many people can run
|>> this with everything turns on in SVGA mode and 25 frame rate? I love to
|>> see the sponsors and the shadowing is superior.
|>>
|>> Don't know if people noticed this: When you spun your car out and you
|>> wait, a course marshall will push or pull the car to the side. Come on,
|>> how can one single marshall can actually pull a race car? What about the
|>> crane? I don't see the crane when it pulls up the car! What the f-1 cars
|>> can fly now?
|>>
|>> What about the***pit? It downloaded some on the net and they look nice
|>> 'The MOMO' one. However, I hate to see every***pit got the same graphic,
|>> and the steering wheel is not moving either like IndyCar 1!
|>>
|>> Course Marshalls waving flags are good, but we can mow them down also! Not.
|>>
|>> Graphics somehow have a lot of problem in this game. For sure it is not
|>> perfect but something should have been done by the designers.
|>>
|>> Sound: Well the sound is okay. However, where is the engine sound from the
|>> other cars? What about every car go the same V-10 sound?
|>>
|>> Gameplay is good but something just not real at all. There are tons of
|>> problem with the game and I feel this game is overrated at this point. I
|>> love Formula One but I don't see this game can fulfill my satisfaction.
|>> Its a good game but not a great game in my own opinion.
|>>
|>> Give me some feedback.

I must say, being a complete F1 GP1 freak, I am slightly disappointed
with GP2.

1) It does feel too much like GP1 in some aspects, especially annoying
things like the slipping clutch at low revs, the inability to complete
a lap when time is over, same bulky view of the cokpit with no view of
the wheels

2) The playability is much better than Gp1 but I think GC should
really start looking at the competition. ICR2 is still more fun to
drive around a road circuit. Maybe not as 'real', but let's keep in
mind we are palying on $200 steering devices and they are far from
perfect. I would prefer to sacrifice a little bit on realism at that
level rather than going off after 1 hour of driving because my T2 is
not perfect and the game is so real.

3) We really should have been given the option of switching off the
reflection effects on the cars. It is nice but I really don't have the
time to look at them and I am sure they chew a lot of CPU. I would
have preferred to switch them off (Display options) and being able to
have the trees shown at Monza and Hockenheim, which I can not get on a
P133- SVGA (19 FPS)

4) I really love the kerbs, but they went overboard with the effects
that most of them produce. I think the only track they are as they
should is in Spa. The others are just too high (2 nd chicane in
Hockenheim!) and look almost like the one you get in town. The car
tilts too much on those and can even spin at 50 km. How many of us
have lost an hour of racing just putting one wheel on the kerb in a
slow chicane and ended up back first? Not too realistic..

I do feel there is lots of potential in the game and if they listen to
complaints they can get to an almost perfect game. The driving model
is excellent, the rest should be fixable.

JFD