rec.autos.simulators

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

Phillip McNelle

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by Phillip McNelle » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00

It is genuinely sad that someone from the CPR team seems to have now had
his fill of ras comments and has packed up his bag and gone home. I really
do believe though that the CPR people have brought the large amount of ill
reviews upon themselves to a very large extent. Or, it is probably more
accurate to say, that Microsoft has brought in upon themselves.

I can't believe that they didn't realise how bad their offering is. Surly
they are not stupid. They have set out, in their own words, to make the
best racing simulator available. Simple logic insists that to make this
claim you must be familiar with what the current state of the art is. To
make this kind of claim without being knowledgable about the competition
really would be stupid.

What about their beta testers ? Who did they use for heavens sake ? Its
very hard to accept that beta testers who are in any way familiar with the
genre would have returned a thumbs up with this program. Did they use the
same folks how last week tested a new spreadsheet system, and the week
before that a word processor feature ? Did they use the same people who
test Flight Sim, who may or may not have any interest or expertise in
testing a racing sim ? If they used testers of any insight and perception
then they must have been aware of this programs shortcomings. It they used
inappropriate testers then that's a very bad mistake on their part in any
case. ( They could do lot worse than getting some of the folks from ras to
test for them if they're serious ).

Because I find it hard to believe that they could be that silly I have to
conclude that they were fully aware about how far short of the mark they
were. That they still released CPR makes me strongly assume that they had
orders from MS that it must be in the shops for Christmas. In this case
there is nothing Dean or any of the team could do about it except resign.
When the big boss pulls a string you jump.

Dean & Co. then have the impossible task to try to justify the programs
numerous obvious problems when the only real excuse is economic impatience,
greed, and a considerable amount of end user disregard on the part of MS.
The CART team would not be allowed to say in public that they knew it was a
lemon but MS, their boss, forced the early release. Instead they are left
in a indefensible position of  trying to convince everyone that it really
is good. I suggest that,  just as I can't accept they are as stupid as
their current predicament would tend to imply, we are not so stupid as to
be palmed off with thin excuses that ultimately hold no water. MSs greed
and disregard for their clients are the bogy here square and sure.

For a number of reasons, many which have been stated more than once on ras,
Cart Precision Racing does not even approach the upper rugs upon which
several other sims already stand. It not only hasn't pushed the art form
but has not even made it into the ballpark of what's already around.

There is a patch coming out which may or may not go a long way to remedy
the situation. Its notable though that some of the items that the patch
addresses are so basic and are so obviously wrong in the original program
one has to again wonder about the integrity and competence of the beta
testers. I even have to wonder if in fact it really was beta tested by
anyone who is used to racing sims at all. Maybe the Christmas rush deadline
excluded all but the most rudimentary inappropriate outside scrutiny if
any.

Frankly I feel sympathy for Dean and the CPR  team because there are the
meat in the sandwich. On one side MS tells them to get it out regardless
without respect or regard to either the end users or to the better
conscience of the programmers themselves. On the other side is a very well
educated and experienced group of sim racers who are well familiar with
where the state of the art is at and what is and isn't acceptable in a
racing simulator. The CART people really can't put the blame where is
rightly belongs, at MSs' door, unless they all want to get fired. They have
to cop it sweet and adopt an alls well that ends well approach.

So now at least one CPR person is fed up with trying to justify themselves
and have quite ras. That's a pity to be sure. But are we expected to be a
bunch of little puppies that'll accept a pat on the head and a old soup
bone and wag our tails ? Please don't expect us to act like we are totally
ignorant of which way is up within this genre. I dare say that more than a
few of the people on ras have put in thousands of hours gaining expertise,
not only through gameplay, but by reading and researching the subject
matter. I for one, am I'm nothing special, have read numerous books and
articles about car design and racing car engineering etc. Its been my hobby
for a long time.

I look forward to the patch. I hope that is does a lot to improve the very
obvious problems. I hope the track editor is good. I hope that further
enhancements and patches make us all forget out initial disappointments. I,
like many here, really do want new offerings to be good and worthwhile.

Best Regards to the CPR team and all. Phooey on MS yet again.

Phillip McNelley


John Walla

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by John Walla » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00

On 11 Dec 1997 12:11:36 GMT, "Phillip McNelley"

<A lot of well considered opinion snipped>

That's very much my take on the release of CPR, although the
unfortunate thing about this theory is that it can never be proven.
No-one from MS is likely to say "That's right, that's what we did"
(although I'd respect them a lot more if they did), but similarly if
that is NOT what happened then anyone who says that is unlikely to be
believed.

The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean
received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider
remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really
excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only
hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of
development time to get it out on the allotted schedule.

Cheers!
John

XRaceTr

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by XRaceTr » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Of course they brought it on themselves...

If the fools wouldn't have decided to try and make a racing sim,
all this would have never happened... Is that what we'd all prefer?

Maybe we should all go back to playing "Speedway" (or whatever
it was called) on the Oddessy 2... Anyone remember saying this
in their heads?

"Left... right... left... left,right,left... left... right... left,right"

:-)

- Mike.

====================================================
 Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
 I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================

DAVID G FISHE

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by DAVID G FISHE » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00

This comment by John Wallace and the previous one by Phillip McNelley are
examples of the kind of critical comments which DID NOT make Dean leave.
The reason he left is too many crossed the line between constructive
criticism, and just plain rudeness. Some were crude, abrasive, completely
unfair, and worst of all, the man was called a LIAR. He was also told he
was here just to sell copies of CPR. I have news for some of you. This
newsgroup is irrelevent as a marketing tool. If it were relevent, all the
sim companies would be here constantly. ADVERTI***TS sell CPR. Regardless
oof the postings here, CPR will sell hundreds of thousands of copies. Dean
was here, mostly, to receive feedback to improve the product, and provide
important info. to the core group of *** sim users. He went beyond
that and helped people with individual problems, which, let's face it, he
could of easily referred to Microsoft or just ignored. NO OTHER SIM
DEVELOPERS ARE HERE. That's a key point to remember. We on r.a.s. are
IRRELEVENT as a marketing tool. You had one product developer who was here
trying to receive feedback to make this the best sim, NOT the best selling
sim, and he was driven away because some people feel so small and need to
put Microsoft in it's place, and save the world form it's tyranny. What a
joke.
David G Fisher



> On 11 Dec 1997 12:11:36 GMT, "Phillip McNelley"

> <A lot of well considered opinion snipped>

> The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean
> received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider
> remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really
> excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only
> hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of
> development time to get it out on the allotted schedule.

> Cheers!
> John

Scott B. Huste

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by Scott B. Huste » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00

David,

Some good points. RAS is not a major marketing tool.  If the ONLY people
who purchased their products were those who post or read RAS then ALL
the sim makers would be out of business real fast!!!  This news group is
a small sample of a much larger population of game (sim) purchasers. I
think the most Dean or Microsoft in general could want to get from this
newsgoup is info to make this and future releases better.  But a few of
you made sure that wont happen from constructive input from this
newsgroup.  Congratulations.

Scott B. Husted
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~sbhusted


> This comment by John Wallace and the previous one by Phillip McNelley are
> examples of the kind of critical comments which DID NOT make Dean leave.
> The reason he left is too many crossed the line between constructive
> criticism, and just plain rudeness. Some were crude, abrasive, completely
> unfair, and worst of all, the man was called a LIAR. He was also told he
> was here just to sell copies of CPR. I have news for some of you. This
> newsgroup is irrelevent as a marketing tool. If it were relevent, all the
> sim companies would be here constantly. ADVERTI***TS sell CPR. Regardless
> oof the postings here, CPR will sell hundreds of thousands of copies. Dean
> was here, mostly, to receive feedback to improve the product, and provide
> important info. to the core group of *** sim users. He went beyond
> that and helped people with individual problems, which, let's face it, he
> could of easily referred to Microsoft or just ignored. NO OTHER SIM
> DEVELOPERS ARE HERE. That's a key point to remember. We on r.a.s. are
> IRRELEVENT as a marketing tool. You had one product developer who was here
> trying to receive feedback to make this the best sim, NOT the best selling
> sim, and he was driven away because some people feel so small and need to
> put Microsoft in it's place, and save the world form it's tyranny. What a
> joke.
> David G Fisher



> > On 11 Dec 1997 12:11:36 GMT, "Phillip McNelley"

> > <A lot of well considered opinion snipped>

> > The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean
> > received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider
> > remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really
> > excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only
> > hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of
> > development time to get it out on the allotted schedule.

> > Cheers!
> > John

Eric T. Busc

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by Eric T. Busc » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Just because the developers aren't actively posting doesn't mean that
they aren't listening...

--
Eric T. Busch

http://ebusch.akorn.net


>NO OTHER SIM DEVELOPERS ARE HERE. That's a key point to remember.
>We on r.a.s. are IRRELEVENT as a marketing tool.

Richard Walk

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by Richard Walk » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00



Hi Phillip,

I have to agree with just about everything you said.

Perhaps worth noting that they posted on the MS web site that "no-one at
MS or TRI ever got below 1:12 at Laguna Seca" (or words to that effect).

CPR is crying out for input from experienced sim racers. It could be a
really great sim - many of the aspects are already there - but when you
can beat the pre-release times by 5 seconds within half an hour of track
time.... :((

Cheers,
Richard

ymenar

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by ymenar » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00


>Just because the developers aren't actively posting doesn't mean that
>they aren't listening...

LOL Eric.... You just made this *** theory available to everybody....

I will have to kill you now ;)         shhhhhhttttt...... You shouldn't had
told this :)

Do you really all think that NO company that makes a simulation racing title
come here. Come on, I though you were more intelligent than that ! I had
concrete proofs about that when somebody from a simracing company e-mailed
me and said that he was reading r.a.s. and wanted to talk with me about a
subject by e-mail.

It's pretty simple.  Some people from Micro$oft reads r.a.s. (probably still
Dean, you don't go away without looking at the results), Papyrus employees,
I heard one day that Mr.Crammond read some posts when Gp2 went out (AFAIK I
think in a interview he said that), There's also Codemaster people,
Psygnosis, etc... (I don't remember the others sorry !).

Fran?ois Mnard,
Creator, rec.autos.simulators

With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard,  (-o-)

ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
SimRacing director, AWPSS

- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -

DAVID G FISHE

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by DAVID G FISHE » Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:00:00

This newsgroup does not sell copies of CPR or any other sim. Respond to my
posting in it's entirety. They may listen to get feedback to improve it's
product, but the newsgroup itself is still irrelevent as a marketing tool.
Dean was not here to sell copies of CPR, he was here to IMPROVE the product
and now he's gone due to bullshit from idiots. Basically he felt he was
waisting his time and he was right.
Dave




> >Just because the developers aren't actively posting doesn't mean that
> >they aren't listening...

> LOL Eric.... You just made this *** theory available to
everybody....

Randy Magrud

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by Randy Magrud » Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:00:00

How does CPR 1.0 differ from other Microsoft 1.0 products? :)

Randy


>The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean
>received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider
>remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really
>excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only
>hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of
>development time to get it out on the allotted schedule.

>Cheers!
>John

John Walla

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by John Walla » Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:00:00



Actually in the last couple of weeks I've seen Bernie Yee of EA
Sports, Mike Lescault of Papyrus, some of the Codemasters guys, and
you can bet your bottom dollar that many other companies will be
lurking. Whether or not they want to risk getting their asses flamed
to a crisp is a decision they have to make, but listening in gives
some good info if you can separate out that wheat and chaff.

Cheers!
John

Wade Tschid

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by Wade Tschid » Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:00:00


>How does CPR 1.0 differ from other Microsoft 1.0 products? :)

>Randy

Regardless of who is still here, who will be back, or who will be "run off
to the castle tower by an angry torch carrying mob", the above is a very
good point. I just bought my first flight sim, and it is AWESOME! And it is
MICRO$OFT, and it is version 8 of this thing. Hopefully it doesn't take
quite that many revisions for them to get a driving sim right (read: appeals
to/satisfies the masses). Anyway keep throwing out that constructive
criticism, even if no one from the intended target hears (reads) it someone
from XYZ Software will see it & hopefully utilize that info.  Altho...it
sounds like no one at wherever Andretti racing came from can read, or drive,
or program ;-))). Boy, with my .02 cents thrown in here, I think r.a.s., if
we convert to a communal/socialist system would have $1.14 from this thread
alone.

Happy Lappin'
Wade Tschida

Trevor C Thoma

MS have brought it on themselves IMO

by Trevor C Thoma » Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:00:00


> This newsgroup does not sell copies of CPR or any other sim. Respond to my
> posting in it's entirety. They may listen to get feedback to improve it's
> product, but the newsgroup itself is still irrelevent as a marketing tool.
> Dean was not here to sell copies of CPR, he was here to IMPROVE the product
> and now he's gone due to bullshit from idiots. Basically he felt he was
> waisting his time and he was right.
> Dave

Dave, excellent post, well said :)!

Trev


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