rec.autos.simulators

  Whats everyones opinion of an indicator line that tells you how much
braking or accelerating your doing?Randy Cassidy has posted that they
cant allow the head movements to show how much G's the car is doing
since it will give a swimming effect as the***pit moves all over the
place.But this line that could sit in your point of view like the HUD
of a jet could convey this feel very effectivly IMO.Or they could
instead show how much your actually applying the gas/brake pedal.Any
ideas which would work better?

  The last hairpin before the start/finish line at Monaco is a perfect
example.I like to brake almost till lockup so the rear doesnt slide
out on me.I cant tell if I am near lockup so I push the pedal till I
hear the skid sound and then back off a bit.Then I downshift and pray
that I dont lock up and skid out.I do this again until I reach first
gear at which point I either over braked and am stopped too far away
or I under braked and I slam the haybales.The line could show me when
I am applying %75 brakes.It could show me how much throttle to apply
to move the line slightly back towards center,keeping weight on the
rears.It can also show me when to downshift and this is
important.Brake to%75 and then downshift which will cause more braking
G's and %100 braking force.Keep the same brake pedal force and when
your braking force moves back to %75 ,downshift again safely.When you
near the turn-in point,release the brakes slowly and add throttle
until the line is centered and smoothly execute the hairpin:)

  Many times in heavy traffic you cant even hear your skid sounds and
this line could show you when your near that point.Other ways it could
help is when your not braking %100.I saw the recent Nascar race at Las
Vegas and they had a graph that showed how much braking the drivers
were doin for the turns.They would give a little over %50.This is very
hard to do in sims without feeling the g's since the amount you move
your feet is hard to judge.This would make for more  consistency in
your racing since you could apply this amount and actually see it.A
very good exercise to enhance your braking in real life racing is to
pick a point in the distance and then apply just enough pedal to stop
there.Your very good at braking when you can apply just the right
amount of brake pedal and without modulating,stop on that spot.Try
that in GPL,hehe,good luck.With this line you could take in your speed
visually and from experience move the line to apply enough braking
force to stop on a dime.You could then just practice this alot till
you very efficient at braking.It could also show you how hard your
coming out of corners as the line moves away from center.

Anyone feel I am wrong with this then please respond.Randy Cassidy,is
there a way to put this into Nascar3 as an option and if possible
GPL?Thanks for listening.
Skeeter

        From of the pictures I've seen of '67 era cars I can't recall seeing
anything like this in one of them. When you've been driving the sim for
a while you get a feel for what's right and what's wrong. I can tell if
I'm too fast coming into a hairpin, and hopefully it's one I can slide
into to bleed off more speed.

        If you can;t hear the skidding, there's always the smoke pouring off
the tires to give you a clue. ;-)

        If you're not braking, then why apply the brakes? There are very few
instances where I apply partial brakes. You're either slowing down, ie.
braking; or you're accellerating. There is very little in between.

        Skeeter,

        Bottom line here is you need to practice your driving skills IMHO; not
trying to be rude. ;-) Spend a few more hundred hours driving the sim
and then think about your bar graphs. Clark and Surtees managed just
fine without them; I think the rest of us can manage also. ;-)

        Brent

Clark and Surtees also drove the real car and could feel the G-forces. We
can't. That is what we need a representation of and what the original poster
was referring to.

Vintook

t>...

% Clark and Surtees also drove the real car and could feel the G-forces. We
% can't. That is what we need a representation of and what the original poster
% was referring to.

% Vintook

% t>...
% >>
% >>   Whats everyones opinion of an indicator line that tells you how much
% >> braking or accelerating your doing?Randy Cassidy has posted that they
% >> cant allow the head movements to show how much G's the car is doing
% >> since it will give a swimming effect as the***pit moves all over the
% >> place.But this line that could sit in your point of view like the HUD
% >> of a jet could convey this feel very effectivly IMO.Or they could
% >> instead show how much your actually applying the gas/brake pedal.Any
% >> ideas which would work better?
% >>
% >
% > From of the pictures I've seen of '67 era cars I can't recall seeing
% >anything like this in one of them. When you've been driving the sim for
% >a while you get a feel for what's right and what's wrong. I can tell if
% >I'm too fast coming into a hairpin, and hopefully it's one I can slide
% >into to bleed off more speed.
% >
% >>   Many times in heavy traffic you cant even hear your skid sounds and
% >> this line could show you when your near that point.
% >
% > If you can;t hear the skidding, there's always the smoke pouring off
% >the tires to give you a clue. ;-)
% >
% >> Other ways it could help is when your not braking %100.
% >
% > If you're not braking, then why apply the brakes? There are very few
% >instances where I apply partial brakes. You're either slowing down, ie.
% >braking; or you're accellerating. There is very little in between.
% >
% >> Anyone feel I am wrong with this then please respond.Randy Cassidy,is
% >> there a way to put this into Nascar3 as an option and if possible
% >> GPL?Thanks for listening.
% >
% > Skeeter,
% >
% > Bottom line here is you need to practice your driving skills IMHO; not
% >trying to be rude. ;-) Spend a few more hundred hours driving the sim
% >and then think about your bar graphs. Clark and Surtees managed just
% >fine without them; I think the rest of us can manage also. ;-)
% >
% > Brent
% >> Skeeter

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  Thanks for the support Vintook.The race car drivers of then and now
have real world feedback as you mentioned.Racing is all about taking
feedback and controlling the three tools you have to make the car do
what you want.When braking,you dont judge how much braking force your
applying by the amount you push the brake pedal,right???In real life
you can tell by how hard your being slammed foward.In real racing the
drivers slam the brakes on at their braking points and threshold brake
and this works fine in sims.But the art of braking and probably the
hardest part of going fast (many drivers have said this) is how you
let go off the brakes at the turn-in point.Trail braking is when you
hold the brake pedal and slowly release it as you turn-in.The problem
in sims is that you cant feel the braking force diminish as you
turn-in and instead you guess how much braking force you have left and
release it slowly as you turn-in.To combat this I have reprogrammed my
body to do it differently.To counteract this I have been turning-in
early and since I am threshold braking my front wheels have no grip
left to turn the car.When I near my turn-in point,since my steering is
already turned,all I have to do is slowly release the brakes.This
gives me a 1 in 20 chance of hitting the turn the way I can do in real
life.Be honest Bman,you rarely brake into a turn and feel it was done
perfectly.In my real car I can do it consistently and its a great
feeling.By the way I am not the fastest but I have been practicing in
the Lotus the last three weeks(Coventry before)and have come 2 to
3seconds off the best times out there at many tracks.I just did a
1:04:67 at the Glen during a race and the world record is
1:03:xx.Believe me when I say that theres more feel racing a real car
then there is in GPL.

  Vintook,I have another idea about this,so give some feedback:).Its
good to read that someone else feels we could use more feedback than
GPL provides at this time.Ok one way is the vertical line with a
horizontal line that runs up and down the lenght of it and when its
centered it means that your neither slowing down or speeding
up.Another way,and I think this gives more feel, is to have a small
horizontal line.Then have a vertical line that grows from the
horizontal line upward in relation to how much braking force is being
applied.At the same time another line shoots downward to show how much
acceleration force is being applied at the rear wheels.This line that
draws downwards would be an excellent way to verify how much weight
your applying to the rear wheels as you trail brake.When your braking
hard in a turn you need to apply just enough throttle to put some
weight onto the rear wheels but to much and you increase your braking
distance.How do you know whats enough?Since it all depends on how much
braking force the car is under this becomes another hard thing to
judge.Brake later and harder and then counteract with throttle until
you see the bottom line moving downwards signalling that weight is
being applied to the rears.Start your turn-in and actually see the
braking force diminishing and cornering force increasing.
Skeeter

I once read an interesting article about the Lotus F1 cars with active
suspensions. They could easily program them so that there was no nose dive
during braking (or even rise!), which would have been much better with the
ground effects cars of that era. But strangely, the drivers found it
virtually impossible to judge the braking force they were applying just from
the G forces. They had to re-program the active suspension to allow the car
nose to dip in response to the braking forces. Since GPL already does this,
I'm not that sure a little bar display would help much.

Anyone who drives is already "programmed" to respond to the movement of the
nose of the car. I think this is the best indicator to use in GPL. Braking
consistently is tough, even in a real car. Carol Smith in his book "Drive to
Win", recommends using up many sets of tires practicing maximum braking, and
judging where you will actually stop.

Kevin Caldwell
Calgary, Canada