rec.autos.simulators

RACING ADVANTAGES FOR SOME!!!

Don Wilsh

RACING ADVANTAGES FOR SOME!!!

by Don Wilsh » Thu, 10 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Jim Sokoloff:

Even if the computers are all created equally what
happens to the equality when the latencies are
different.  On Hawaii we all are nominally at 20ms,but
with TEN it can be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms latencies..

I play a heck of alot of Quake and I do it either from
my home or at the ISP.  I have a 160ms delay when I
call the local quake server from my home.  I have a 5ms
delay when I play quake from my ISP.  The Point is that
I cannot be beat when playing quake from the ISP as I
can react 10 times faster than when I play at home.
Before some of these guys can turn I see it with my
low latency and I kill the suckers...  Now will
this apply to NASCAR.

I can see that I can race NASCAR (NRO) and I am running
a tight track with cars all around me.  I got some
people that are running with a 5ms delay, some with
say 60ms delay, some with 120ms delay and other with
like 200ms plus.  How will TEN keep us all with different
delays from inadvertently running into each other and
will be with a lower like ISP 5ms latency have an
advantage or turning quickly or jumping into a hole
faster than someone with a slower latency...

Don Wilshe, IVGA

Jim Sokolof

RACING ADVANTAGES FOR SOME!!!

by Jim Sokolof » Mon, 14 Jul 1997 04:00:00


> Even if the computers are all created equally what
> happens to the equality when the latencies are
> different.  On Hawaii we all are nominally at 20ms,but
> with TEN it can be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms latencies..

I don't think Hawaii ever gets down to 20ms, but I could be wrong. I
believe a more common latency on Hawaii is in the neighborhood of 150ms.
The higher latency your connection is, the worse the game will play.
This is an immutable law of nature. Your car will behave the same, but
the cars around you will not be as "stable" for lack of a better word.

Jumping into a gap in traffic won't be much of a factor, because the
cars have so much inertia relative to the amount they can move around in
traffic in a very short period of time.

The real problem comes from the game being forced to extrapolate
positions from stale data. The higher the latency, the more stale the
data. The more stale the data, the worse the game will behave in
traffic. There's code in place currently to attempt to deal with this
problem, but so long as the data recieved by the client is stale,
there's no silver bullet solution.

So, yes, those people with bad/overloaded/not well connected ISPs will
not have as good a game as someone connected through a lightly loaded
link close to a TEN backbone router.

---Jim

David Hudso

RACING ADVANTAGES FOR SOME!!!

by David Hudso » Mon, 14 Jul 1997 04:00:00



> > Even if the computers are all created equally what
> > happens to the equality when the latencies are
> > different.  On Hawaii we all are nominally at 20ms,but
> > with TEN it can be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms latencies..
> I don't think Hawaii ever gets down to 20ms, but I could be wrong. I
> believe a more common latency on Hawaii is in the neighborhood of 150ms.
> The higher latency your connection is, the worse the game will play.
> This is an immutable law of nature. Your car will behave the same, but
> the cars around you will not be as "stable" for lack of a better word.

> > I can see that I can race NASCAR (NRO) and I am running
> > a tight track with cars all around me.  I got some
> > people that are running with a 5ms delay, some with
> > say 60ms delay, some with 120ms delay and other with
> > like 200ms plus.  How will TEN keep us all with different
> > delays from inadvertently running into each other and
> > will be with a lower like ISP 5ms latency have an
> > advantage or turning quickly or jumping into a hole
> > faster than someone with a slower latency...

> Jumping into a gap in traffic won't be much of a factor, because the
> cars have so much inertia relative to the amount they can move around in
> traffic in a very short period of time.

> The real problem comes from the game being forced to extrapolate
> positions from stale data. The higher the latency, the more stale the
> data. The more stale the data, the worse the game will behave in
> traffic. There's code in place currently to attempt to deal with this
> problem, but so long as the data recieved by the client is stale,
> there's no silver bullet solution.

> So, yes, those people with bad/overloaded/not well connected ISPs will
> not have as good a game as someone connected through a lightly loaded
> link close to a TEN backbone router.

> ---Jim

Thank you Jim for the ever present "fresh" information we receive from
Papyrus . Bad enough that people have waited rather patiently for the
most part for NRO to even start and i might add a few I know have paid
Ten over 100.00 dollars now and not been able to run the first lap
I wonder how fast the "bug ironing" process would advance if there was
a company that could hook up twenty racers using NAS2 and race !!
Thats what we need a competitor for the service . HMMMMM
I would think it could be done and the next part of that equation
would be the cost to the online sim racer . Would it be affordable
hmmmm Hawaii racers pay 6.00 per hour IF they have a dime plan
and some weekenders get it free through a rate plan . NOW being we
STILL have no REAL idea what this will cost (NRO) which would they
choose? Now what of the installation costs and maintenence expense
of the actual servers ?? Well in all honesty thats a good question
but one a few educated people could figure out .
I think the time has come to look to alternatives to the NRO
for the consumers racing enjoyment .

David Hudson

Dave Bake

RACING ADVANTAGES FOR SOME!!!

by Dave Bake » Mon, 14 Jul 1997 04:00:00





> > > Even if the computers are all created equally what
> > > happens to the equality when the latencies are
> > > different.  On Hawaii we all are nominally at 20ms,but
> > > with TEN it can be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms latencies..
> > I don't think Hawaii ever gets down to 20ms, but I could be wrong. I
> > believe a more common latency on Hawaii is in the neighborhood of
150ms.
> > The higher latency your connection is, the worse the game will play.
> > This is an immutable law of nature. Your car will behave the same, but
> > the cars around you will not be as "stable" for lack of a better word.

> > > I can see that I can race NASCAR (NRO) and I am running
> > > a tight track with cars all around me.  I got some
> > > people that are running with a 5ms delay, some with
> > > say 60ms delay, some with 120ms delay and other with
> > > like 200ms plus.  How will TEN keep us all with different
> > > delays from inadvertently running into each other and
> > > will be with a lower like ISP 5ms latency have an
> > > advantage or turning quickly or jumping into a hole
> > > faster than someone with a slower latency...

> > Jumping into a gap in traffic won't be much of a factor, because the
> > cars have so much inertia relative to the amount they can move around
in
> > traffic in a very short period of time.

> > The real problem comes from the game being forced to extrapolate
> > positions from stale data. The higher the latency, the more stale the
> > data. The more stale the data, the worse the game will behave in
> > traffic. There's code in place currently to attempt to deal with this
> > problem, but so long as the data recieved by the client is stale,
> > there's no silver bullet solution.

> > So, yes, those people with bad/overloaded/not well connected ISPs will
> > not have as good a game as someone connected through a lightly loaded
> > link close to a TEN backbone router.

> > ---Jim

> Thank you Jim for the ever present "fresh" information we receive from
> Papyrus . Bad enough that people have waited rather patiently for the
> most part for NRO to even start and i might add a few I know have paid
> Ten over 100.00 dollars now and not been able to run the first lap
> I wonder how fast the "bug ironing" process would advance if there was
> a company that could hook up twenty racers using NAS2 and race !!
> Thats what we need a competitor for the service . HMMMMM
> I would think it could be done and the next part of that equation
> would be the cost to the online sim racer . Would it be affordable
> hmmmm Hawaii racers pay 6.00 per hour IF they have a dime plan
> and some weekenders get it free through a rate plan . NOW being we
> STILL have no REAL idea what this will cost (NRO) which would they
> choose? Now what of the installation costs and maintenence expense
> of the actual servers ?? Well in all honesty thats a good question
> but one a few educated people could figure out .
> I think the time has come to look to alternatives to the NRO
> for the consumers racing enjoyment .

> David Hudson

I agree one-hundred percent.  Fortunately, I haven't signed up with TEN
yet.

Dave Baker

John Walla

RACING ADVANTAGES FOR SOME!!!

by John Walla » Mon, 14 Jul 1997 04:00:00



I would be extremely surprised if Hawaii offered latencies of 20ms.
Even playing Quake in the office from my terminal hooked into the UK's
"SuperJANET" network (VERY fast academic network connecting
universities and hospitals) and playing on a second server on
SuperJANET the latency is around 35ms or more. Using a dialup from
home on a 28.8 directly into a SuperJANET terminal the best is around
150ms.

It would surely be nice to play with a 20ms latency on Hawaii but I
fear it is a pipe dream.

Cheers!
John

myke

RACING ADVANTAGES FOR SOME!!!

by myke » Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:00:00


> Jim Sokoloff:

> Even if the computers are all created equally what
> happens to the equality when the latencies are
> different.  On Hawaii we all are nominally at 20ms,but
> with TEN it can be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms latencies..

[SNIP]

> Don Wilshe, IVGA

Don

If your 20ms to hawaii is based on the reported latentcy the number you
prabably are seeing is .20 latency or 200ms.  

To achieve 20ms would need to get .02  I haven't achieved that under
null modem let alone long distance.


or 110ms for me.

mykey


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