rec.autos.simulators

by **Ronald Leger** » Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:59:51

Dear Group,
I have been working through M&M's RCVD for some time. Although it contains
a lot of information, and I have learned a lot, I find it can be a bit
opaque at times,
even for a Physicist like myself. For example, I skimmed the "Pair analysis
chapter"
at one point, never realizing the significance of it untill I was trying to
understand why spring adjustments effect OS/US the way they do. Finally that
chapter and "load sensitivity" started clicking. But the book doesnt exactly
spell this out. It gives you all the ingredients, but seems
to fail to come right out at tell me things that I wish it did, e.g. how
vehicle set
up effects performance. I would love some explaination in terms of numerical
examples
of the various recomendations in chapter 12 for example. As another
example, during
the discussion of the 'magic formula' it is not made abundantly clear that
you still
need to know the load sensitivities of the cornering stiffness and mu in
order
to make any use of those formulations. (Are there any good models for
these??)
Ok, so thats the background for the question, here is the question:
What book should I get to accompany RCVD? Does the workbook help? How about
M&M's other book (CHassis design). Or a how about Genta's book? (Which is
not currently available from Bn.com or amazon.com.. perhaps a new edition
is
being prepared???)

Thanks very much.

Ron Legere

by **Ashley McConnel** » Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:21:12

Hi Ronald,

I returned my copy of the "workbook" as it didn't have the answers. Heck, I
coulda wrote a load of questions about Race Car Dynamics - its checking your
answers that is the important thing for me.

Did I miss something Doug? :)

I have genta, I think its easier to program from than RCVD, but RCVD is much
easier to read IMO.

All the best,
Ash
http://www.siroccoracing.com

by **Ronald Leger** » Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:36:52

Ashley,
I believe the new version (http://www.millikenresearch.com/rcvdpae.html)
has
the answers, and worked solutions. So the page claims :)
I will have to try and see if I can get Genta somewhere.
Ron

by **Ruud van Ga** » Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:36:58

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 07:59:51 -0400, "Ronald Legere"

>Dear Group,
> I have been working through M&M's RCVD for some time.
...
>What book should I get to accompany RCVD?

One of my favorites next to RCVD is 'Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics'
from Gillespie.
Genta's book is also ok on getting a closer look on Pacejka, although
the formula in that book is pretty old. Hans B. Pacejka now has his
own book, just out for some months. Pretty *** tire stuff though.

The workbook for RCVD is indeed a bit of a bummer.

SAE.org may have all the books in stock.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Pencil art : http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Ashley McConnel** » Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:50:47

Aha, I might have to get it in that case!

All the best,
Ash
http://www.siroccoracing.com

by **Stephen Clibber** » Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:39:30

I found the Millikens 'Chassis design' book to be very helpful in getting a
deeper understanding of suspension related effects. It takes some reading
(it's a big book, and I found I had to concentrate on every bit :), but it
does provide a very good alternate take on the whole issue. It gave me a
_much_ more thorough understanding of roll centres, for example, not to
mention anti pitch/dive/squat...

Cheers,
Steve.

by **Doug Millike** » Sun, 27 Jul 2003 04:44:09

As usual, my news feed isn't very good, haven't seen the OP yet.

It's really nice to hear that someone read and learned from "Chassis
Design"--Olley's Notes were circulated underground in Detroit for
about 40 years before we were finally able to get permission from GM
to publish them (the history is detailed in the front of the book).

RCVD was never meant to be a "primer", so I'm not surprised that someone
fairly new to vehicle dynamics would have problems following some of it.
Sorry about that. But, if we tried to make the book useful at all levels
it would have gotten even bigger...

-- Doug Milliken
www.millikenresearch.com/rcvdpae.html <-- new companion book for RCVD

> I found the Millikens 'Chassis design' book to be very helpful in getting a
> deeper understanding of suspension related effects. It takes some reading
> (it's a big book, and I found I had to concentrate on every bit :), but it
> does provide a very good alternate take on the whole issue. It gave me a
> _much_ more thorough understanding of roll centres, for example, not to
> mention anti pitch/dive/squat...

> Cheers,
> Steve.

> > Dear Group,
> > I have been working through M&M's RCVD for some time. Although it
> contains
> > a lot of information, and I have learned a lot, I find it can be a bit
> > opaque at times,
> > even for a Physicist like myself. For example, I skimmed the "Pair
> analysis
> > chapter"
> > at one point, never realizing the significance of it untill I was trying
> to
> > understand why spring adjustments effect OS/US the way they do. Finally
> that
> > chapter and "load sensitivity" started clicking. But the book doesnt
> exactly
> > spell this out. It gives you all the ingredients, but seems
> > to fail to come right out at tell me things that I wish it did, e.g. how
> > vehicle set
> > up effects performance. I would love some explaination in terms of
> numerical
> > examples
> > of the various recomendations in chapter 12 for example. As another
> > example, during
> > the discussion of the 'magic formula' it is not made abundantly clear
> that
> > you still
> > need to know the load sensitivities of the cornering stiffness and mu in
> > order
> > to make any use of those formulations. (Are there any good models for
> > these??)
> > Ok, so thats the background for the question, here is the question:
> > What book should I get to accompany RCVD? Does the workbook help? How
> about
> > M&M's other book (CHassis design). Or a how about Genta's book? (Which is
> > not currently available from Bn.com or amazon.com.. perhaps a new edition
> > is
> > being prepared???)

> > Thanks very much.

> > Ron Legere

by **Matt Knutse** » Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:50:57

> > > Dear Group,
> > > I have been working through M&M's RCVD for some time. Although it
> > contains
> > > a lot of information, and I have learned a lot, I find it can be a
bit
> > > opaque at times,
> > > even for a Physicist like myself. For example, I skimmed the "Pair
> > analysis
> > > chapter"
> > > at one point, never realizing the significance of it untill I was
trying
> > to
> > > understand why spring adjustments effect OS/US the way they do.
Finally
> > that
> > > chapter and "load sensitivity" started clicking. But the book doesnt
> > exactly
> > > spell this out. It gives you all the ingredients, but seems
> > > to fail to come right out at tell me things that I wish it did, e.g.
how
> > > vehicle set
> > > up effects performance. I would love some explaination in terms of
> > numerical
> > > examples
> > > of the various recomendations in chapter 12 for example. As another
> > > example, during
> > > the discussion of the 'magic formula' it is not made abundantly clear
> > that
> > > you still
> > > need to know the load sensitivities of the cornering stiffness and mu
in
> > > order
> > > to make any use of those formulations. (Are there any good models for
> > > these??)
> > > Ok, so thats the background for the question, here is the question:
> > > What book should I get to accompany RCVD? Does the workbook help? How
> > about
> > > M&M's other book (CHassis design). Or a how about Genta's book? (Which
is
> > > not currently available from Bn.com or amazon.com.. perhaps a new
edition
> > > is
> > > being prepared???)

Ron, look for the Carroll Smith books. They are more "hands on", and
together with M&M's bible it makes every car racers bookcase complete :)
He's even put out a small pocket-sized reference book which would be perfect
for all simracers. It's like a dictionary or windows helpfile. You can
search for a problem like "entry understeer" and get an instant tip :)

Matt

by **Doug Millike** » Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:00:57

> > > > I have been working through M&M's RCVD for some time. Although it
> Ron, look for the Carroll Smith books. They are more "hands on", and
> together with M&M's bible it makes every car racers bookcase complete :)
> He's even put out a small pocket-sized reference book which would be perfect
> for all simracers. It's like a dictionary or windows helpfile. You can
> search for a problem like "entry understeer" and get an instant tip :)

For those that haven't heard, Carroll Smith died this spring. There
are various tributes on the www, many of them tied to Formula SAE sites.
He was a very special guy.

Carroll's excellent books are still available, one source is through the
online bookstore at: http://www.sae.org

SAE stocks many useful automotive tech books--a much better source than
general booksellers like B&N or Amazon, for these low volume books. The
big companies don't have stock so they just have to order from the
publisher anyway. SAE is also our publisher, so of course I'm biased...

-- Doug Milliken
www.millikenresearch.com

by **Ed Solhei** » Mon, 28 Jul 2003 07:28:31

"Doug Milliken" said:

Now that is very sad to hear....

He must have been one of the most down to earth guys there ever was. Matt
and myself had the pleasure of 'bumping' into him at the Autosport racecar
show a couple of years ago and he was just like as nice and "proper" as he
sounds like. A really special man indeed.

May he rest in peace.

--
ed_

by **Ronald Leger** » Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:42:06

Thanks very much for all the help everyone!
I borrowed Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics from the library, and
it has helped a lot with my understanding. I will have to
order the Caroll Smith books as well, when the set is back in stock, and
and a few other interesting titles I see on the sae web site (Haney's
book about racing tire's looks interesting!)

Cheers,
Ron

rec.autos.simulators

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