rec.autos.simulators

Hi gang,

At firs glance MS-CART gives the impression of being a great sim
struggling to get out, but having spent some time with it I think that
it flatters to deceive. By that I mean that the realism of the game
feels contrived, as though the outcomes are predetermined somewhat.
While driving I have the distinct feeling that my car is the Airbus of
Indycar - five computers are voting on everything I try to do and
deciding if I'm going to be allowed to do it or not.

My own thoughts on this game overall would depend upon the judging
criteria. Taken as a sim I think it's a valiant first effort but
fatally flawed. Too many things not only wrong, but fundamentally
wrong - issues which are intertwined with the game engine and beyond
the reach of a "quick fix". That said, I really don't think this is a
full-blown "simulator" in the manner of GP2, ICR2, NASCAR etc - if it
is then it has managed to drag itself out of the primordial ooze a
rung or two down the evolutionary ladder from the current crop.

Issues like automatically steering away from CCs before you hit them,
getting smoke from your rears when you slow down to a crawl, front
wheelspin when in neutral(!), extremely strange relationship (if any)
between what your engine sounds like it is doing compared to what it's
actually doing (and the same can be said for the braking sounds).
These (and a plethora of others I haven't mentioned) are pretty
damning for a sim, but in the contest of a hugely entertaining piece
of multi-player fun they aren't too important.

That's pretty much how I see CPR, as an extremely fun multiplayer
racer. It certainly WOWs you the first time out with the graphics and
sound, and it gives a great feeling of being there, with the car
jumping around under braking and tires chirping as the rear breaks
loose. Many of these and other things seem to be exaggerated for
effect, excessive suspension movements, exciting sounds, easily caught
slides, I even have the impression that halfway through the season
Alex Zanardi starting cutting doughnuts and these were levered into
the sim so people could do them - no harm in that (they are fun after
all!), I'm just making the distinction between an engine that
genuinely allows you to do doughnuts through realistic modelling and
an engine which has a "doughnuts" feature added onto it (like GP2's
spin turn for example). Delving deeper into it I find that something
feels disconnected between me and the car. In ICR2 I know whether I am
on a better lap than my previous one, even if the difference is half a
second or less - since the control is so precise and the engine note
closely linked with the speed and gearing, you know instantly whether
the car was placed more precisely than the last lap, whether you
carried more speed or whether that error cost you any time. At first
in CPR I found myself constantly adjusting gear ratios in the garage
since the engine sounded like it was dropping out of the power band in
fifth and sixth. To my surprise it always sounded like that,
regardless of the changes I made. That, in conjunction with the
slightly "woolly" steering makes it difficult to follow your lap, how
consistently you are running. Braking into the Corkscrew is an
exercise in luck for me, the car refusing to turn to an early apex
even when the brakes aren't locked and the speed is down. It seems I'm
"not allowed" to do that for some reason, and I can't fathom why.

All that aside I am having lots of fun with CPR and will undoubtedly
buy the full thing if only for racing on the Zone and hotlapping. I
had two races on the Zone last night to try it out and thoroughly
enjoyed it. I don't think the above comments are related to speed, my
best lap is now sub 1:07 and race laps are consistently 1:10 or below
(this is on Pro and with all help off of course), but I still have the
impression that something else is pulling the strings with me as the
advisor. It has certainly set a new standard in auto-sims for
features, for presentation and for sound, and any future sims should
take a good look at the crew chief, racing school, configurability,
ease of multiplayer, hall of fame and such features. Perhaps not the
next-step that I was looking for, but a very enjoyable game
nonetheless.

I'll see you all on the Zone :)  Senna_McNailz is my new sign-up since
I forgot my previous password :)  I'll be the one doing 140mph out of
the gravel at T5 ;-)

Cheers!
John

PS - I didn't mention the AI, and that's probably for the best. "Needs
attention" I should say.

% Hi gang,

% At firs glance MS-CART gives the impression of being a great sim
% struggling to get out, but having spent some time with it I think that
% it flatters to deceive. By that I mean that the realism of the game
% feels contrived, as though the outcomes are predetermined somewhat.
% While driving I have the distinct feeling that my car is the Airbus of
% Indycar - five computers are voting on everything I try to do and
% deciding if I'm going to be allowed to do it or not.

John, I think you have hit the nail on the head.  My impressions are
there are 2 different avenues to attack a racing simulation:

1) create the physics engine of the car/track/etc.

2) Tweak the software to mimic the results of said physics

I feel that Papyrus' sims basically take tack #1.  They first build a
physics engine around which the simulation is based.  From what I have
seen MS-CART took tack #2, look at the physics and then write software
that gives this effect.  I think GP1 & GP2 fall somewhere in between,
but weighs in more in at approach #2.  That is why the difference in the
"feel" between these sims.  This is also why some people like one over
the other.

<snip>

% Issues like automatically steering away from CCs before you hit them,
% getting smoke from your rears when you slow down to a crawl, front
% wheelspin when in neutral(!), extremely strange relationship (if any)
% between what your engine sounds like it is doing compared to what it's
% actually doing (and the same can be said for the braking sounds).
% These (and a plethora of others I haven't mentioned) are pretty
% damning for a sim, but in the contest of a hugely entertaining piece
% of multi-player fun they aren't too important.

I found the "official" reply to "steering away from CCs" to be totally
flawed.  Yeh, right, one certainly doesn't want to bang wheels in an
open wheel, delicate supension machine.  But, the "real world" hasn't
quite gone the route of "collision avoidance systems" (not yet anyway).
That's part of racing, the driver controlling the car.  The sounds not
related to the reality of what is happening (engine sound vs. rpm)
appears to be another case of creating software that "mimics" (not
simulates) the physics of a race car.

<snip>
% PS - I didn't mention the AI, and that's probably for the best. "Needs
% attention" I should say.

And unless it's addressed then your other observations about this being
a delightful "multi-player" racing program is right on the money.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<... a lot of very thoughtful observations>

This is the necessary  welcoming for any new simulator to this group.
When GP2 came out, half the threads in this group were about how it
wasn't really a simulator... and when ICR2 came out, I don't remember
a single positive thread about it. People crucified it, from the
motorcycle sounds to the AI to the fact people considered it just a
repackage of ICR... and then all those traction issues came up, got
way too ugly. But in retrospect, these two are classics.

I think the MS one will be a classic too one day. But I think you had
some good observations-  for instance, MS really does need to stay
away from "canned features" like the god-awful GP2 spin. Let an
"arcade mode" put all that stuff together, but the sim has got to be a
sim, or it will be useless. Even the music in the menus is a turn off
for me, syaing "arcade, arcade." You don't hear metal music in MS'
Flight Sim, do you?

Another good observation- your point that the computer seems to be
deciding if it is "your turn" to win... MS really needs to watch out
for this. In ICR2, GP2, CART-WS, N2, etc., you always do have the
sense that you earn your wins... I occasionally also have had this
sense that the cars around me are staying a certain distance from me.
If this is not the case, great. But it is something for MS to be alert
to.

Fact is, I hope MS takes their time getting this sim right before
putting it out officially. They are going to learn a lot from this
group and e-mails.

Lastly, remember how lousy the N2 demo was as compared to what finally
came out. In this light, I'd say this MS demo is more on the mark,
comparatively-speaking.

Just as an FYI, we have no code in CART to decide if it's "your turn to
win". You win based on the same criteria as in a real race: position on the
last lap.

there are no canned physics effects, like the power turn. You can cut donuts
in CART because you have 850 hp and and normal racing tires.

Cheers,

John Browne
CART Team