rec.autos.simulators

Couple of questions:

When (IF) the US gets Toca 2 how much difference will there be between
the UK version and the US version?
I don't want to get good and practiced at TOCA 2 then get the US
version when it finally come out and find out it has changed a lot.
My second question, why the long wait on a US version? Is it because
TOCA is a British sport (mainly) and they don't feel it would sell
good in the US? From what I have seen of it so far it would sell like
hot cakes.

Frame rate very smooth on a P2 300 64 meg with Monster Fusion AGP.

Now onto SBK..
Ok, first of all, the only real life motorcycle I have rode was a 75cc
Dirt Bike back when I was about 16 (I'm 26 now) so I don't have a lot
of experience with motorcycle handling, but should I suck this badly?
It doesn't want to steer much at all.. I lean, lean through a curve
(Monza) but I don't seem to be steering deep enough and roll through
the grass, this is after slowing way down. Then while I am leaning I
goose the gas.. Ripppp.. Rear wheel goes shopping for a new handler
and I'm in the dirt on my ass. I know I can change the realism values
to have assisted gas and brake, but I never use the dumbed down
versions because I feel if I use a dumb downed version and get good at
it, that I will get bad habits from the easier model that will
translate into problems on the realistic model. Same way with GPL.. I
tried using the "training" cars in GPL and found that it was lying to
you about the feel of the car.... Slam on the gas in a training car,
then try it in the real car.. Big difference. Does any body understand
what i am trying to say?
Anyway, my biggest gripe with SBK is the graphics.. While beautiful I
tried running a race with 19 bikes. The frame rate went south fast
when I was near a pack of bikes. Does anyone have good graphic
settings that give you all the visual feedback you need and give good
FPS?

I guess it's a lot like GPL for the learning curve, which I am glad..
I like realistic sims, I just want to hear from some experts.. Is SBK
pretty realistic for super bike handling?

Oh, one last thing.. Has Monza changed a lot since 1967? In GPL after
you Pit Out, you go down a long straight away, then turn right, right,
then left..
In SBK I encounter an S turn, then a right..
Is this how the modern Monza has changed?
The only part of Monza I recognized from GPL was the last turn and the
start/finish line straightaway.. The rest seemed totally different.

To sum up TOCA 2 and SBK.. If you like GPL you will like SBK and TOCA
2.. Toca 2 for the fun factor of racing, and SBK for the realism
challenge.

--
-Gunslinger-

Monza Has changed a great deal, the basic layout is similar but the
poor place has been blighted by chicanes.  The fact is that a modern
gp car is just way to fast for the place.... sad

Ps Glad your enjoying TOCA if you ever holiday in the UK give me a
shout and we can take in a race together, Snetterton is just down the
road from me.  With your flight sim hat on btw, Snetterton is an old
8th AF base (96 Bomb Group) the revvett straight is part of the old
main runway.

Regards Mike

Exactly so now that the Formule 1 cars are safe, maybe it's time that we
expand the tracks and make them a little more interesting no? IMHO there is
1 too much corner at Indianapolis for 2000 (will make it way too slow and
boring, taking off the front stretch and the backstretch it's just boring
slow 130degree turns).  Sepang looks pretty slow and boring also.  Im sure
we could live at Monza without the second chicane.  One of the chicanes at
Hockenheim (second or third I say, more the third).

Perfect example that F1 would be safe on faster circuit : Jacques
Villeneuve's crash in Eau Rouge at Spa.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

As for Monza, the overall layout is the same, they just had to add chicanes
to satisfy F1 safety rules (does anyone else think that Max Mosley is
COMPLETELY out of touch with F1? - Give us back slicks, then reduce
downforce, and if necessary, chuck out the carbon brakes!).

(Apologies to Monza officianados, but I always confuse the names of the
corners at Monza, so I won't use them.......!)
At the new Monza, imagine the first 2 corners (left-right chicane) aren't
there, just a straight ("straightaway" for Americans?!) cutting through the
middle of them. Then you have the straight from 1967.

You should also recognise the last left-hander from GPL (the flat-out-in-5th
one!). In SBK work back in your mind from the last right-hander to the
complex of corners before it. I imagine in SBK you go down a straight, then
have to brake hard into a left, right, left, with the whole complex actually
turning the course left by about 45 degrees, then down another straight into
the last corner (right-hander).
Imagine it as a single fast 45degree left hander rather than the complex,
and you have the old corner back.
Basically if you imagine all the kinks of the new Monza as not being there,
(does that make sense?!), then you have the old Monza. Personally I'm not a
great fan of the 1967 version, as it's a bit too simple (not easy, just too
simpler a layout). Some halfway-house between what we had then and what we
have now would be cool - a fast track which also had bits to test the
driver.

Mike West

A friend of mine in the UK sent me a copy of TOCA 2 and I got it
yesterday (I had to pay him through the nose though.. Just like a real
friend ;).
This sim is pretty good.
I haven't done much more then race a few laps at the practice track,
but from I have seen so far it's pretty smooth.
The "bumpiness" of the car feels great, take a corner too fast and you
end up looking at where you just came from (reminds me of GPL)
It also has a ghost car feature which is great for seeing what you did
wrong, and the ghost car actually shows up in the rear view mirror
unlike other "ghost" enabled sims I have played.
I did manage to take out my windshield last night.. Pretty wild.

Couple of questions:

When (IF) the US gets Toca 2 how much difference will there be between
the UK version and the US version?
I don't want to get good and practiced at TOCA 2 then get the US
version when it finally come out and find out it has changed a lot.
My second question, why the long wait on a US version? Is it because
TOCA is a British sport (mainly) and they don't feel it would sell
good in the US? From what I have seen of it so far it would sell like
hot cakes.

Frame rate very smooth on a P2 300 64 meg with Monster Fusion AGP.

Now onto SBK..
Ok, first of all, the only real life motorcycle I have rode was a 75cc
Dirt Bike back when I was about 16 (I'm 26 now) so I don't have a lot
of experience with motorcycle handling, but should I suck this badly?
It doesn't want to steer much at all.. I lean, lean through a curve
(Monza) but I don't seem to be steering deep enough and roll through
the grass, this is after slowing way down. Then while I am leaning I
goose the gas.. Ripppp.. Rear wheel goes shopping for a new handler
and I'm in the dirt on my ass. I know I can change the realism values
to have assisted gas and brake, but I never use the dumbed down
versions because I feel if I use a dumb downed version and get good at
it, that I will get bad habits from the easier model that will
translate into problems on the realistic model. Same way with GPL.. I
tried using the "training" cars in GPL and found that it was lying to
you about the feel of the car.... Slam on the gas in a training car,
then try it in the real car.. Big difference. Does any body understand
what i am trying to say?
Anyway, my biggest gripe with SBK is the graphics.. While beautiful I
tried running a race with 19 bikes. The frame rate went south fast
when I was near a pack of bikes. Does anyone have good graphic
settings that give you all the visual feedback you need and give good
FPS?

I guess it's a lot like GPL for the learning curve, which I am glad..
I like realistic sims, I just want to hear from some experts.. Is SBK
pretty realistic for super bike handling?

Oh, one last thing.. Has Monza changed a lot since 1967? In GPL after
you Pit Out, you go down a long straight away, then turn right, right,
then left..
In SBK I encounter an S turn, then a right..
Is this how the modern Monza has changed?
The only part of Monza I recognized from GPL was the last turn and the
start/finish line straightaway.. The rest seemed totally different.

To sum up TOCA 2 and SBK.. If you like GPL you will like SBK and TOCA
2.. Toca 2 for the fun factor of racing, and SBK for the realism
challenge.

--
-Gunslinger-

Perfect example that F1 should never get complacent about things....
remember Gerhardt Bergers Firey crash in his Ferrari at Tamburello, Imola in
1989, He got away with it, Senna was not so lucky.

What an idiotic statement buddy. Just because Villeneuve walked away, it
doesn't mean everyone will. I remember Zanardi nearly getting killed there a
few years back.
I am all for fast tracks myself but F1 will never be totally safe weather it
is run at Hockenheim or Monaco. There will ALWAYS  be a chance of that freak
accident waiting to claim a life.

I'm not saying go back to the safety of the sixties (or lack of it), but to
make F1 safer the right way. The drivers and teams are practically unanimous
in their criticism of the way it's happening at the moment.

With the current rules, cars are supremely reliant on aerodynamics, or more
to the point, downforce. As soon as a car gets close to the car in front, it
loses a large proportion of it's downforce. With the old slick tyres drivers
could use that to their advantage, as they would therefore have less drag
and be able to pass from the toe. Nowadays, they are less able to do that as
the car is much more likely to become unstable do to lack of grip during the
pass.

If we reduce downforce and bring back slicks, cornering speeds won't
actually change all that much, (the cars this year were meant to be 3-4 secs
a lap slower than last year - they're not!), but the drivers will be more
able to control the car if it does get unstable, and the car is likely to
stop quicker from a spin, as it will have more grip slowing it down.
Actually if you think about it, if a car end up rolling backwards after a
spin, in wings actually produce "upforce" lessening the grip it has to stop
with - less downforce would help this too!)

F1 needs to be safe, but almost everyone IN the sport (as opposed to RUNNING
the sport) agree that Mosley is going about it completely the wrong way...

Mike West

3DNow! UK: www.3dnow.freeserve.co.uk