GT3: handling and setups

Well, not the cutting edge, and a console game to boot. So maybe I won't get much of a response. But heregoes anyway... I've always been curious as to how good the Gran Turismo series models all the myriad car setup options. Even when "hardcore" simming on the PC (GPL, etc), I never got into setups. Guess I want to be a driver, not a mechanic :-) So I don't have a feel for how accurate the setup options in GT3 are (spring rates, shock bound/rebound, camber, toe, stabilizers,brake bias, differential...). I might get into it if I have some confidence in them being of high fidelity. Any comments from those who have a good working knowledge of handling dynamics both in the real and sim world? Also, even after completing the game, I never have been able to drive the mid-engine cars in the GT series worth a damn. No problem with understeering fwd or oversteering rwd. But the mid's (NSX, Elise, Ruf) give me fits. Even the front-mid S2000 is relatively hard to drive smoothly. Are these at all accurately portrayed? If so, maybe I really don't want one! And any secrets to setting these up so I don't lose it on sustained high speed turns?

Proberly the wrong newsgroup to be posting, but i will say this: Setting up car is more the driver than the mechanic because the driver has to give good feedback/suggestions :). However your forgiven :) I personally find the NSX, especially the race cars and the S2000 also especially the races cars, the most enjoyable cars to drive. The best way to drive smoothly is to have heaps of reference points. Have a marker to brake, a maker to start turning in. A marker to apex, and even a marker to say when you have to get back on the gas! That way you sort of turn into a robot and makes it easier to brake later and experiment but with much more consistant lap times! Read the other GT3 post below and try that newsgroup for more in depth GT3 help Cool Hand Luke "DM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hMSd9.3164$[email hidden]... > Well, not the cutting edge, and a console game to boot. So maybe I won'tget > much of a response. But heregoes anyway... > > I've always been curious as to how good the Gran Turismo series models allthe > myriad car setup options. Even when "hardcore" simming on the PC (GPL,etc), > I never got into setups. Guess I want to be a driver, not a mechanic :-)So > I don't have a feel for how accurate the setup options in GT3 are (spring > rates, shock bound/rebound, camber, toe, stabilizers,brake > bias, differential...). I might get into it if I have some confidence inthem > being of high fidelity. Any comments from those who have a good working > knowledge of handling dynamics both in the real and sim world? > > Also, even after completing the game, I never have been able to drive the > mid-engine cars in the GT series worth a damn. No problem withundersteering > fwd or oversteering rwd. But the mid's (NSX, Elise, Ruf) give me fits.Even > the front-mid S2000 is relatively hard to drive smoothly. Are these atall > accurately portrayed? If so, maybe I really don't want one! And anysecrets > to setting these up so I don't lose it on sustained high speed turns?

In article <0oTd9.19698$[email hidden]>, "Luke Phillips" <(NOSPM)[email hidden]> wrote: >Proberly the wrong newsgroup to be posting, but i will say this: Setting up >car is more the driver than the mechanic because the driver has to give good >feedback/suggestions :). Heh, I knew I'd get called on that :-) >The best way to drive smoothly is to have.. Always good to get tips. Do note that I did complete the game, which means competent enough to eclipse all the Time Trial records, including Complex Course. Where I have trouble is in sensing when the mid-engines are about to lose it, and how to real them back in without just being sloppy. With FWD, I basically feather the throttle or brake. If the car is heading to understeer at the turn exit, just back off a bit on throttle. If understeering on entry, a tad more brake or (on a fast turn) less throttle. RWD isn't much different. You just also get to play with power-on oversteer. Which is generally easily modulated. Mid-engine cars just seem to lose composure front & back (essentially "neutral" as we apparently want cars to be), and once done, they just don't want to respond positively to either throttle or brake modulation. They seem to be fast, ie high cornering limits, but sloppy and uncontrollable when taken just a bit too fast. I may be overstating the case to make the point. I can take the Elise and break the TT#1 record in about 2 laps even if I haven't driven it in a month. >Read the other >GT3 post below and try that newsgroup for more in depth GT3 help If that was a link to the PS2 or GT sites, I do occasionally look there. I wanted to check here as there is more wheat and less chaff. Lots of knowledge here on real cars and real dynamics. I don't want to just know how to make a GT3 car run a fast time, if it is just doing it in a way that isn't realistic (ie, with setup tips that work, but aren't very physics/reality-based). Plus this is more like home :-)

DM <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hMSd9.3164$[email hidden]... > I don't have a feel for how accurate the setup options in GT3 are (spring > rates, shock bound/rebound, camber, toe, stabilizers,brake > bias, differential...). I might get into it if I have some confidence in them > being of high fidelity. Any comments from those who have a good working > knowledge of handling dynamics both in the real and sim world? Well, I've only played GT 1&2 but the setup options there respond pretty well, IMHO. I've been racing R/C model cars for many years and consider myself something of a chassis guru, and the GT cars respond pretty much the way I'd expect. > Also, even after completing the game, I never have been able to drive the > mid-engine cars in the GT series worth a damn. No problem with understeering > fwd or oversteering rwd. But the mid's (NSX, Elise, Ruf) give me fits. Even Must be your driving style... I'm a smooth race driver, and I use very pointy setups (to the point where some people complain my cars are undriveable - both R/C and GT!) - and the NSX was one of my favourite cars, especially in Arcade mode where I couldn't change the setup. But if it's really the steady-state (long corner) balance which is causing problems, I'd add some front anti-roll bar (or spring) if it's low speed, or add some rear wing if it's high speed. HTH, Jonny

Haven't played GT3, but in general lifting off the throttle is the wrong thing to do when you are in trouble in a mid engine car. That I know from real life experience. I made a big mess out of an MR2 a few years ago by doing that. Keep a steady throttle and try to keep the wheels pointed in the direction you are trying to go. The right amount of throttle is just a bit less than the amount necessary to continue at your current speed, so that you are neutralizing the weight transfer and so that you have plenty of traction left at the rear. Also try not to chase the wheel back and forth, this will just make you oscillate worse. "DM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Rd0e9.202704$[email hidden]... > In article <0oTd9.19698$[email hidden]>, "LukePhillips" <(NOSPM)[email hidden]> wrote: > .. > > Where I have trouble is in sensing when the mid-engines are about to > lose it, and how to real them back in without just being sloppy. WithFWD, I > basically feather the throttle or brake. If the car is heading toundersteer > at the turn exit, just back off a bit on throttle. If understeeringon entry, > a tad more brake or (on a fast turn) less throttle. RWD isn't muchdifferent. > You just also get to play with power-on oversteer. Which is generallyeasily > modulated. Mid-engine cars just seem to lose composure front & back > (essentially "neutral" as we apparently want cars to be), and oncedone, they > just don't want to respond positively to either throttle or brakemodulation. > They seem to be fast, ie high cornering limits, but sloppy anduncontrollable > when taken just a bit too fast.

In article <albcnv$1pcbsd$[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes: >Haven't played GT3, but in general lifting off the throttle is the wrong >thing to do when you are in trouble in a mid engine car. That I know >from real life experience. I made a big mess out of an MR2 a few years >ago by doing that Was that YOU??? Nah, just kidding... :-) That sucks, though. Problem is, lifting is MOST people's natural response. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Exactly. This was about 15 years ago, when I had an MR2 at the Lockheed wind tunnel in Georgia, doing some testing. We were done with the testing and I was driving it out to load it onto the truck. There was a nice little drive with an enticing looking curve between the tunnel and the truck, so I decided to show off a little and floored it (what can I say? When you're in your twenties you have more balls than brains). I got into the turn a little too hard and, not knowing any better, lifted to slow down. I went sideways very fast, tried to correct and just ended up fishtailing back and forth a couple of times. Since there APPEARED to be nothing but grass on the side of the road, I let it go, thinking I was safe. Turned out that just a few feet off the side of the road there was a shallow dip with a raised manhole cover in the middle of it. Raised just high enough to trash the right front wheel and peel open the right side of the car like a can opener. It bounced me back on the road and I came to a stop, unhurt but for a very red face. I damn near got fired because of that, and it definitely cost me a promotion. If only I knew then what I know now... ;o) "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Was that YOU??? Nah, just kidding... :-) > That sucks, though. Problem is, lifting is MOST people's naturalresponse.

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> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

<snip> > I >got into the turn a little too hard and, not knowing any better, lifted >to slow down. I went sideways very fast, tried to correct and just >ended up fishtailing back and forth a couple of times. <snip> Hehe... Good ole' mid engines. That's a lot wilder than my experience.. After a little rain had slicked up an intersection, I did a 360 in my friend's Fiero making a hard left hand turn from a stand still after the light turned green. I didn't even get a chance to try and correct it. ZOOM! The car went around fast! He promptly made me pull over so he could drive the rest of the way :-) (I was 18-19 at the time.) A few months later in the dry with the same friend (he was driving a little pickup truck, he never let me drive one of his cars again after the Fiero incident;-)), we went a bit too quick around a turn and the rear came out, he over corrected slightly, then over corrected again, and again... and around we went! Off the road, into a tree backwards. The rear window exploded all over the bed with a little help from the back of my head. Lucky I've got a hard noggin', didn't hurt at all. Then there was the time in another friend's '71 Firebird doing well over 100mph at age 16.... Boy! I didn't know a car could spin around three times and land dead in the middle of the freeway like that :-) After realizing we survived and didn't hit anything, he nailed it (only one of two glasspack mufflers was left, so it was a LOUD car.) We started hollering like the guys in the Mountain Dew commercial after they flipped the golf cart ("That was AWESOME!!"). I think of that and laugh every time I see that commercial... <Wondering how I lived to my 20th B-day> Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

Hello there, [email hidden] (DM) wrote in message news:<hMSd9.3164$[email hidden]>... > Well, not the cutting edge, and a console game to boot. So maybe I won't get > much of a response. But heregoes anyway... > (snip) Checkout the Gran Turismo Forum: http://www.granturismo.com & If your busting to get some regular, quality weekly i.Link Battle action, checkout the GTiB: http://www.gtib.net High revvingly yours, Pasene Faifua. GTiB http://www.gtib.net GSM +6421844365 http://www.sms.ac

Hello there, [email hidden] (DM) wrote in message news:<hMSd9.3164$[email hidden]>... > Well, not the cutting edge, and a console game to boot. > So maybe I won't get much of a response. > But heregoes anyway... FYI, & for those interested in everything Gran Turismo/GT checkout http://forum.granturismo.com for anything regarding the GT franchise. > I've always been curious as to how good the Gran Turismo series models all the myriad car setup options. > Even when "hardcore" simming on the PC (GPL, etc), I never got into setups. > Guess I want to be a driver, not a mechanic :-) I too am interested, but just can't spend the time to really get every ounce out of each setup adjustment. It's 1 of many reasons why I've chosen to race the GT franchise over PC driving/racing sims. > So I don't have a feel for how accurate the setup options in GT3 are (spring > rates, shock bound/rebound, camber, toe, stabilizers,brake bias, differential...). > I might get into it if I have some confidence in them being of high fidelity. > Any comments from those who have a good working knowledge of handling dynamics both in the real and sim world? The 1 area I've disagreed with in regards on setup adjustments in the GT franchise is the effect of Camber Adjustment. In my real world experience adding camber generally will improve cornering. But in GT I've found that it has the reverse affect. Camber adjustments that I know are used for certain FF, FR, & MR cars found in the real world, when applied in GT I find they make the handling too loose, & less responsive. Another area that disappoints me is that many of the GT Online League Racing regulars use unrealistic setup values, which in the real world would break the car, if not the driver, because of such impossibly extreme damper/spring/ride height settings. Watching these players replays highlights how ridiculous their setups are, by how much their cars bounce & dart all over the place. I've always preferred racing stock/showroom cars in GT, & find it the most rewarding because you have to deal with not just carrying speed into & out of corners, but also weight transfer. Since the 1st GT, to the latest GTC 2002 T-G its improved each & everytime there was an update to the franchise. It so pleasing that finally with GTC 2002 T-G, we get arguably the same superior & more realistic physics model as usually only available to the Asian/Japanese Domestic Market. > Also, even after completing the game, I never have been able to drive the > mid-engine cars in the GT series worth a damn. > No problem with understeering fwd or oversteering rwd. > But the mid's (NSX, Elise, Ruf) give me fits. When I 1st played GT I too struggled with the MR's. But being a Honda enthusiast, & seeing how effective the NSX type S-Zero is in BEST MOTORing over the years, I thought it was up to me to change my driving to suit as my thinking was, surely there's nothing wrong with the type S-Zero. Its just what I was trying to do with it that makes it so difficult to drive. Since then I've loved driving the MR's, inparticular the tricky [R] JGTC NSX-GT's with their low ground clearance, short suspension travel, & their propensity to spin when things get bumpy. What I've learnt, & noticed watching others who struggle with MR's in GT, is that its important not to arrive @ a corner, & think you can scrub off all your speed as you turn in, like you could in FF/FR. With MR's you have brake in a straightline, settle the weight of the car evenly over the front wheels, then as you lift off the brake & apply the throttle you have to balance the weight transfer using smooth, subtle steering & throttle input. I've found MR's are very sensitive to how you set them up as you come to a turn, as you turn in, & as you exit. This may sound obvious, but MR's are very sensitive & require smooth, subtle inputs. You'll find once you become confident with how they behave that you'll be able to chuck them about corner to corner like you can easily with FF/FR. > Even the front-mid S2000 is relatively hard to drive smoothly. Personally I find the S2000 in GT2/GT3 to have too much front end grip, compared to the real world vehicle I drove. I find the car physics changes made in GTC 2002 T-G have helped improve the handling of the S2000, & the Tuscan Speed 6. Interestingly this year also saw changes to the real world S2000, with changes to its damper/spring rates, as well as changing to smaller roll bars/stabilisers front & rear to help make its handling less edgy. > Are these at all accurately portrayed? I've driven a few cars in the real world, that have featured in the GT franchise over the years both on the road, & circuit: EF8 CR-X SiR, EG6 Civic SiR, EG4 CR-X del Sol SiR, EK9 Civic Type R, BB4 Prelude Si VTEC, DC2/DB8 Integra Type R 96spec.R, S15 Silvia spec-R, CD6 Accord SiR, Mirage Cyborg ZR, AP1 S2000, SW20 MR2 G-Limited, FTO GPX. For me each of the GT releases for their time were the most accurately modelled game I'd played compared to the same vehicle I'd driven in the real world. Each new release/update gets even better, showing there's still more they can do to make it more realistic. My most major complaint, as it has been since the 1st GT, is the engine notes still aren't right. The DOHC VTEC Honda's just don't scream like they do in the real world, same goes for all the variable valve timing engines with lift. Mind you, I love the howl they've got for the Vanquish in GTC 2002 T-G!!!!!!!!!!!! You sure can hear that thing coming from miles away. > If so, maybe I really don't want one! I think you've just got to change the way you go about driving MR, compared to FF/FR. Force yourself to learn & adapt, so you can experience the feeling of balancing the car's weight, with subtle 4 wheel drifts into & out of turns. Then you'll understand why race drivers prefer the MR layout. > And any secrets to setting these up so I don't lose it on sustained high speed turns? As I always stick to roadcars I can't offer any setup tips. But I will tell you that as familiar as I am with MR's in GT, I still have trouble lapping quickly & thus consistently in GT2 driving the Elise @ Red Rock Circuit with its banked high speed turns. FWIW you'll find the all new Elise found in GTC 2002 T-G much easier to handle, though it still sounds awful & much in need of a real engine like Honda's B18C from the DC2/DB8 Integra Type R. High revvingly yours, Pasene Faifua. GTiB http://www.gtib.net GSM +6421844365 http://www.sms.ac