XBOX Vs. PC (realism)

The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world with no pain?

There's no winner or loser, just good games. Both have their strengths. Here's my take on some of it. PC Games are cheaper. Very easy to patch. For most online games low ping rules, some servers laggy (ala BF1942) You'll get the best eye candy from the PC (1600x1200 with 4xAA kinda stuff). Sound in games is hit or miss Team Killers and Laggers. More $$$$ Single player in the room on a chair. Console Games usually cost more. Generally no need to patch (and you can with the Xbox). No worries about 56k laggers (Xbox Live, broadband only) Great graphics (they can go up to 1080i and use large displays (HDTVs)). Great sound (Dolby 5.1 in all games .. Xbox). Online will be somewhat more controlled (read Xbox), no Team Killers, centrally controlled and you can block players easy. Consoles are cheap (P3-733, 64MB, 8Gig HD, GForce 3+ video, again Xbox $299 CDN). Up to 4 Players in the room (Xbox again), you'll get to know your couch again. For the price of a console (almost equal to a good video card) you can have both. ==================================================== "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... : The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world with : no pain? : :

"McF" <[email hidden]> writes: > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world with > no pain? no Force Feedback on XBox. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 myk, trygg og god.

You forgot about better controllers for the PC which makes the racers on the consoles seem incomplete ... "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DN7j9.93068$[email hidden]...

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> There's no winner or loser, just good games. Both have their strengths. > Here's my take on some of it. > > PC > Games are cheaper. > Very easy to patch. > For most online games low ping rules, some servers laggy (ala BF1942) > You'll get the best eye candy from the PC (1600x1200 with 4xAA kinda

stuff).

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> Sound in games is hit or miss > Team Killers and Laggers. > More $$$$ > Single player in the room on a chair. > > Console > > Games usually cost more. > Generally no need to patch (and you can with the Xbox). > No worries about 56k laggers (Xbox Live, broadband only) > Great graphics (they can go up to 1080i and use large displays (HDTVs)). > Great sound (Dolby 5.1 in all games .. Xbox). > Online will be somewhat more controlled (read Xbox), no Team Killers, > centrally controlled and you can block players easy. > Consoles are cheap (P3-733, 64MB, 8Gig HD, GForce 3+ video, again Xbox

$299 > CDN). > Up to 4 Players in the room (Xbox again), you'll get to know your couch > again. > > For the price of a console (almost equal to a good video card) you canhave

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> both. > > > ==================================================== > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > : The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world > with > : no pain? > : > : > >

Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. At least not at current console/game prices. -Larry "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console worldwith > no pain? > >

Limit number of keys on controllers. Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a zillion key combinations... Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]...

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> Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. At > least not at current console/game prices. > > -Larry > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world > with > > no pain? > > > > > >

Larry, Ok, maybe it's not as good as 1600x1200, but the Xbox can display a screen as good as 1024x768 on a HDTV w. component inputs, altho not all games support the higher rez. I bought a state-of-the-art 27-in. Samsung HDTV (line doubler, etc.) for $999 that looks spectacular with an Xbox...and not that much worse with the PS2 (which has only S-video output, as near as I can tell). I've spent more than that on computer monitors (21-in. Sony, NEC). The real killer is the lack of FF on the Xbox. There aren't even any decent wheels available...unlike the PS2 which not only has FF but will also accept most USB wheels (my MOMO works fine with most racing games). --Steve "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]...

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> Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. At > least not at current console/game prices. > > -Larry > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world > with > > no pain? > > > > > >

On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:14:13 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I bought a state-of-the-art 27-in. Samsung HDTV What sold you on this model? I'm curious because I still have an early 90's 12" vcr/tv combo and plan on upgrading this spring, and that price is very good if it's high quality. Jason

What about the realism of race simulations? There will ever be a aka-NASCAR Racing 2002 for XBox?

Jason Moyer wrote:

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> On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:14:13 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> I bought a state-of-the-art 27-in. Samsung HDTV > > What sold you on this model? I'm curious because I still have an > early 90's 12" vcr/tv combo and plan on upgrading this spring, and > that price is very good if it's high quality. > > Jason

I got the 32" flat panel Samsung w HDTV monitor, and am very happy with it. 2 things sold me - the looks of the unit, and I supply some tv manufactures through my work, I have always been impressed with Samsung and the way the do things. They are very aggressive and on the rise in gaining market share. Don Burnette

I don't find the large Xbox controllers that bad (I own PGR, RallieSport, Moto GP, F1-2001 & Sega GT 2002). There are some wheels out for the Xbox. As others have mentioned they aren't force feedback and I'm not sure how I'd like a wheel while lying down. :-) -- ==================================================== "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... : You forgot about better controllers for the PC which makes the racers on the : consoles seem incomplete ... : : "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:DN7j9.93068$[email hidden]... : > There's no winner or loser, just good games. Both have their strengths. : > Here's my take on some of it. : > : > PC : > Games are cheaper. : > Very easy to patch. : > For most online games low ping rules, some servers laggy (ala BF1942) : > You'll get the best eye candy from the PC (1600x1200 with 4xAA kinda : stuff). : > Sound in games is hit or miss : > Team Killers and Laggers. : > More $$$$ : > Single player in the room on a chair. : > : > Console : > : > Games usually cost more. : > Generally no need to patch (and you can with the Xbox). : > No worries about 56k laggers (Xbox Live, broadband only) : > Great graphics (they can go up to 1080i and use large displays (HDTVs)). : > Great sound (Dolby 5.1 in all games .. Xbox). : > Online will be somewhat more controlled (read Xbox), no Team Killers, : > centrally controlled and you can block players easy. : > Consoles are cheap (P3-733, 64MB, 8Gig HD, GForce 3+ video, again Xbox : $299 : > CDN). : > Up to 4 Players in the room (Xbox again), you'll get to know your couch : > again. : > : > For the price of a console (almost equal to a good video card) you can : have : > both. : > : > : > ==================================================== : > : > : > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... : > : The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world : > with : > : no pain? : > : : > : : > : > : :

"McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GSkj9.126727$[email hidden]... > What about the realism of race simulations? There will ever be aaka-NASCAR > Racing 2002 for XBox? > > Just speaking of NASCAR Thunder 2001 on XBox, it's still very arcady compared to Papy's latest offering. In Thunder, not only is it easy to get away with running over other cars in the race, it's practically required. This is even with more realistic damage turned on. I think if EA keeps working on it, they can get the sim feel up, but honestly I don't know if that's the market they're after. Still, it's great fun playing with my 6 y.o. son. I just wish you could replay the whole race. Tom

I had an elderly JVC 27-incher that was going south (the yoke needed replacing...but unlike cars, you can't get parts for TVs more than a couple of years old), so I started thinking there's no point in replacing it with old tech, so I started looking at HDTVs, but the 16:9 screens are too 'spensive, and besides, they wouldn't fit in the hole in the furniture left by the old JVC. A friend of mine has gone nuts for HDTV (bought a 55-in. Mistu, a $3000 Denon A/V rec'r, etc.) and is up on all the latest gen, so I discussed it with him and decided on the Samsung TXM2798HF (4:3 direct view; there's a 32-incher for $300 more). Bottom line, it's great visually: it has several scan-conversion modes and one of them will work with almost any source to improve it (there's no HDTV broadcast here yet--altho it's on HBO cable--but I've got a prog. scan DVD player, the Xbox and a PS2 for this story I'm working on for Motor Trend, and a S-VHS VCR). With the DVDs, you can see detail you've missed in movie theaters. BUT it doesn't do Dolby 5.1, much less Dolby Digital. I've routed the audio LINE OUT thru a 400W amp and a couple of floor-standing Cerwin-Vegas, but it's no substitute for real surround sound (I'm using DD 5.1 with optical inputs on my PC). The best surprise was how much it does for the Xbox. To the naked eye, the rez looks abt. 4X higher. --Steve "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:14:13 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > I bought a state-of-the-art 27-in. Samsung HDTV > > What sold you on this model? I'm curious because I still have an > early 90's 12" vcr/tv combo and plan on upgrading this spring, and > that price is very good if it's high quality. > > Jason

The most realistic-feeling physics model I've come across in a console game is Ratbag's World of Outlaws: Sprint Cars (but what the hell do I know about driving on dirt in cars with wings as big as a 747's?) for the PS2. The most realistic-feeling physics model on cars I can relate to is World Rally Championship, also for the PS2, and tons (tonnes for you Euros) better than Rallisport Challenge: the 4WD cars feel like 4WD cars in WRC, not like the above-mentioned tail-happy Sprinters in RC's rally cars. There's a WRC2 available in Europe, but incredibly, despite the surge in interest in the World Rally Championship over here (thanks to Speedvision...I guess...Motor Trend's readers favor international rallying over everything but NASCAR: F1, CART, the IRL, etc.), Sony hasn't seen fit to bring the title to the U.S. "We've already got too many racing titles," the p.r. guy told me. --Steve "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GSkj9.126727$[email hidden]... > What about the realism of race simulations? There will ever be aaka-NASCAR > Racing 2002 for XBox? > >

Agree. "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n1lj9.208927$[email hidden]...

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> Jason Moyer wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:14:13 GMT, "Steve Smith" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >> I bought a state-of-the-art 27-in. Samsung HDTV > > > > What sold you on this model? I'm curious because I still have an > > early 90's 12" vcr/tv combo and plan on upgrading this spring, and > > that price is very good if it's high quality. > > > > Jason > > I got the 32" flat panel Samsung w HDTV monitor, and am very happy with

it. > 2 things sold me - the looks of the unit, and I supply some tvmanufactures > through my work, I have always been impressed with Samsung and the way the > do things. They are very aggressive and on the rise in gaining marketshare. > > Don Burnette > >

no, I was referring to the fact that you cant get a TSW for an xbox and the like "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1Jnj9.93358$[email hidden]...

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> I don't find the large Xbox controllers that bad (I own PGR, RallieSport, > Moto GP, F1-2001 & Sega GT 2002). > There are some wheels out for the Xbox. As others have mentioned they > aren't force feedback and I'm not sure how I'd like a wheel while lying > down. :-) > > > > -- > > > ==================================================== > > > "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > : You forgot about better controllers for the PC which makes the racers on > the > : consoles seem incomplete ... > : > : "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > : news:DN7j9.93068$[email hidden]... > : > There's no winner or loser, just good games. Both have their

strengths.

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> : > Here's my take on some of it. > : > > : > PC > : > Games are cheaper. > : > Very easy to patch. > : > For most online games low ping rules, some servers laggy (ala BF1942) > : > You'll get the best eye candy from the PC (1600x1200 with 4xAA kinda > : stuff). > : > Sound in games is hit or miss > : > Team Killers and Laggers. > : > More $$$$ > : > Single player in the room on a chair. > : > > : > Console > : > > : > Games usually cost more. > : > Generally no need to patch (and you can with the Xbox). > : > No worries about 56k laggers (Xbox Live, broadband only) > : > Great graphics (they can go up to 1080i and use large displays

(HDTVs)).

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> : > Great sound (Dolby 5.1 in all games .. Xbox). > : > Online will be somewhat more controlled (read Xbox), no Team Killers, > : > centrally controlled and you can block players easy. > : > Consoles are cheap (P3-733, 64MB, 8Gig HD, GForce 3+ video, again Xbox > : $299 > : > CDN). > : > Up to 4 Players in the room (Xbox again), you'll get to know your

couch

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> : > again. > : > > : > For the price of a console (almost equal to a good video card) you can > : have > : > both. > : > > : > > : > ==================================================== > : > > : > > : > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > : > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > : > : The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console

world

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> : > with > : > : no pain? > : > : > : > : > : > > : > > : > : > >

Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than my F-22/TQS HOTAS. http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b attalion.htm Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & demand. -- Joe M. "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > Limit number of keys on controllers. > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a zillion key > combinations... > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. At > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > -Larry > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console world > > with > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > >

My vote goes to Ferrari F355 on the Dreamcast. If you've played the arcade machine version (3 screens, 3 pedals, 5-speed shifter), you'll know just what I'm talking about. It's just as good as GPL/F1 2002/N2K2. Too bad Ferrari wouldn't allow a damn damage model. -- Joe M. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hBsj9.19079$[email hidden]... > The most realistic-feeling physics model I've come across in a console game > is Ratbag's World of Outlaws: Sprint Cars (but what the hell do I know about > driving on dirt in cars with wings as big as a 747's?) for the PS2. > > The most realistic-feeling physics model on cars I can relate to is World > Rally Championship, also for the PS2, and tons (tonnes for you Euros) better > than Rallisport Challenge: the 4WD cars feel like 4WD cars in WRC, not like > the above-mentioned tail-happy Sprinters in RC's rally cars. There's a WRC2 > available in Europe, but incredibly, despite the surge in interest in the > World Rally Championship over here (thanks to Speedvision...I guess...Motor > Trend's readers favor international rallying over everything but NASCAR: F1, > CART, the IRL, etc.), Sony hasn't seen fit to bring the title to the U.S. > "We've already got too many racing titles," the p.r. guy told me. > > --Steve > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GSkj9.126727$[email hidden]... > > What about the realism of race simulations? There will ever be a > aka-NASCAR > > Racing 2002 for XBox? > > > > > >

Joe, I love the whole idea of Steel Batallion (2 joysticks! 3 foot pedals! 40 buttons!), but this is going to be a $200 ticket...as much as the Xbox itself. This does not sound like a prescription for success (unless the MechWarrior-like gameplay is a killer game). --Steve "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]... > Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than myF-22/TQS > HOTAS. > >http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b

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> attalion.htm > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > demand. > > -- > Joe M. > > > "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > > Limit number of keys on controllers. > > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a zillion

key

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> > combinations... > > > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. > At > > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console

world

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> > > with > > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. At > least not at current console/game prices. you complain about prices? you want 1600x1200 on a console your gonna pay through your nose. The reason consoles are so cheap is because they can not do 1600x1200, the memory required would bump up the hardware price too much, so they are left for the mainstream on TV use.

"Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FmFj9.227280$[email hidden]... > My vote goes to Ferrari F355 on the Dreamcast. If you've played thearcade > machine version (3 screens, 3 pedals, 5-speed shifter), you'll know just > what I'm talking about. It's just as good as GPL/F1 2002/N2K2. Too bad > Ferrari wouldn't allow a damn damage model. I agree, Ive done a bit of racing in the past and when I booted up F355 on a Dreamcast I was pleasantly surprised, it just had that 'on edge at speed' feeling, Im looking for a steering wheel/pedal setup for it now.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:59:44 +0200, "pup" <na> wrote: >I agree, Ive done a bit of racing in the past and when I booted up F355 on a >Dreamcast I was pleasantly surprised, it just had that 'on edge at speed' >feeling, Im looking for a steering wheel/pedal setup for it now. If you find a good one could you let us know? All the wheels I've purchased for my Dreamcast are totally useless. Jason

"pup" <na> writes:

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> "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. At > > least not at current console/game prices. > > you complain about prices? you want 1600x1200 on a console your gonna pay > through your nose. > The reason consoles are so cheap is because they can not do 1600x1200, the > memory required would bump up the hardware price too much, so they are left > for the mainstream on TV use.

bull. going from 800x600 to 1600x1200 increases memory usage by 11MB for dual-buffered applications. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 FJ�SE!

You can get 1080i in the new Dragon Slayer 3D, the first HDTV game (Xbox of course). I may get it just to show off the visual quality of my HDTV. -- ==================================================== "pup" <na> wrote in message news:3d8f9ac1$0$195$[email hidden]... : : "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... : : > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. At : > least not at current console/game prices. : : you complain about prices? you want 1600x1200 on a console your gonna pay : through your nose. : The reason consoles are so cheap is because they can not do 1600x1200, the : memory required would bump up the hardware price too much, so they are left : for the mainstream on TV use. : :

Steve, I agree that Steel Battalion, and the limited usefulness of the controller, might be too risky a venture for the Xbox (although a rumored XBLive sequel would be a good value overall). I must disagree about the cost relative to the Xbox hardware, it's not the Xbox's fault that it PERFORMS like a $2000 PC. ;0) We must adjust our value equation and accept a more costly peripheral relative to system cost if we expect the Xbox to replace our PC (which I hope it does since I'm sick of $300 video cards every 6-18 months). The key is longevity, these peripherals must work across 2 generations of hardware (Xbox 1 to Xbox 2) giving us over 5 years of value (I've had my TSW PC wheel for about 5 years now and it's still going strong). BTW, I think a $150 force feedback wheel would be an ideal piece of hardware, especially if they develop a system seller like GT3/Logitech combo for the PS2. I spent $150 for that combo which was 50% of my PS2 (now 75% of current PS2 prices). Frankly, GT3 lacked the racing AI to keep me interested. Steel Battalion looks amazing and with good AI and a simulation feel I could see spending months with that gem. Honestly, how many hours does the avg. guy get out of a $50 game? So far my best gaming value is Falcon 4 flight sim: 4 years and counting. Second is GPL. F1 2002 looks like it will surpass both if the mods are as good as expected since I LOVE GT racing with decent AI. -- Joe M. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4ELj9.22626$[email hidden]... > Joe, > > I love the whole idea of Steel Batallion (2 joysticks! 3 foot pedals! 40 > buttons!), but this is going to be a $200 ticket...as much as the Xbox > itself. This does not sound like a prescription for success (unless the > MechWarrior-like gameplay is a killer game). > > --Steve > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]... > > Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than my > F-22/TQS > > HOTAS. > > > > > http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b > > attalion.htm > > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > demand. > > > > -- > > Joe M. > > > > > > "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > > > Limit number of keys on controllers. > > > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a zillion > key > > > combinations... > > > > > > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > > > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. > > At > > > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console > world > > > > with > > > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I have the TM Ferrari wheel for the DC ($50 at the time should still be available). It's a damn good wheel for the money. Has a desk clap which I used to play the DC on my PC monitor. The wheel has pretty good tension which is important to me since I'm used to PC FF and can't use a loose wheel. I would not hesitate to recommend that wheel. BTW, I currently own a LWFF, Logi MOMO and TSW2 for the PC so I have pretty good taste in wheels. ;0) -- Joe M. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:59:44 +0200, "pup" <na> wrote: > > >I agree, Ive done a bit of racing in the past and when I booted up F355 on a > >Dreamcast I was pleasantly surprised, it just had that 'on edge at speed' > >feeling, Im looking for a steering wheel/pedal setup for it now. > > If you find a good one could you let us know? All the wheels I've > purchased for my Dreamcast are totally useless. > > Jason

Steve, I agree that Steel Battalion, and the limited usefulness of the controller, might be too risky a venture for the Xbox (although a rumored XBLive sequel would be a good value overall). I must disagree about the cost relative to the Xbox hardware, it's not the Xbox's fault that it PERFORMS like a $2000 PC. ;0) We must adjust our value equation and accept a more costly peripheral relative to system cost if we expect the Xbox to replace our PC (which I hope it does since I'm sick of $300 video cards every 6-18 months). The key is longevity, these peripherals must work across 2 generations of hardware (Xbox 1 to Xbox 2) giving us over 5 years of value (I've had my TSW PC wheel for about 5 years now and it's still going strong). BTW, I think a $150 force feedback wheel would be an ideal piece of hardware, especially if they develop a system seller like GT3/Logitech combo for the PS2. I spent $150 for that combo which was 50% of my PS2 (now 75% of current PS2 prices). Frankly, GT3 lacked the racing AI to keep me interested. Steel Battalion looks amazing and with good AI and a simulation feel I could see spending months with that gem. Honestly, how many hours does the avg. guy get out of a $50 game? So far my best gaming value is Falcon 4 flight sim: 4 years and counting. Second is GPL. F1 2002 looks like it will surpass both if the mods are as good as expected since I LOVE GT racing with decent AI. -- Joe M. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4ELj9.22626$[email hidden]... > Joe, > > I love the whole idea of Steel Batallion (2 joysticks! 3 foot pedals! 40 > buttons!), but this is going to be a $200 ticket...as much as the Xbox > itself. This does not sound like a prescription for success (unless the > MechWarrior-like gameplay is a killer game). > > --Steve > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]... > > Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than my > F-22/TQS > > HOTAS. > > > > > http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b > > attalion.htm > > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > demand. > > > > -- > > Joe M. > > > > > > "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > > > Limit number of keys on controllers. > > > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a zillion > key > > > combinations... > > > > > > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > > > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. > > At > > > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console > world > > > > with > > > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Steve, I agree that Steel Battalion, and the limited usefulness of the controller, might be too risky a venture for the Xbox (although a rumored XBLive sequel would be a good value overall). I must disagree about the cost relative to the Xbox hardware, it's not the Xbox's fault that it PERFORMS like a $2000 PC. ;0) We must adjust our value equation and accept a more costly peripheral relative to system cost if we expect the Xbox to replace our PC (which I hope it does since I'm sick of $300 video cards every 6-18 months). The key is longevity, these peripherals must work across 2 generations of hardware (Xbox 1 to Xbox 2) giving us over 5 years of value (I've had my TSW PC wheel for about 5 years now and it's still going strong). BTW, I think a $150 force feedback wheel would be an ideal piece of hardware, especially if they develop a system seller like GT3/Logitech combo for the PS2. I spent $150 for that combo which was 50% of my PS2 (now 75% of current PS2 prices). Frankly, GT3 lacked the racing AI to keep me interested. Steel Battalion looks amazing and with good AI and a simulation feel I could see spending months with that gem. Honestly, how many hours does the avg. guy get out of a $50 game? So far my best gaming value is Falcon 4 flight sim: 4 years and counting. Second is GPL. F1 2002 looks like it will surpass both if the mods are as good as expected since I LOVE GT racing with decent AI. -- Joe M. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4ELj9.22626$[email hidden]... > Joe, > > I love the whole idea of Steel Batallion (2 joysticks! 3 foot pedals! 40 > buttons!), but this is going to be a $200 ticket...as much as the Xbox > itself. This does not sound like a prescription for success (unless the > MechWarrior-like gameplay is a killer game). > > --Steve > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]... > > Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than my > F-22/TQS > > HOTAS. > > > > > http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b > > attalion.htm > > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > demand. > > > > -- > > Joe M. > > > > > > "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > > > Limit number of keys on controllers. > > > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a zillion > key > > > combinations... > > > > > > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > > > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. > > At > > > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console > world > > > > with > > > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Steve, I agree that Steel Battalion, and the limited usefulness of the controller, might be too risky a venture for the Xbox (although a rumored XBLive sequel would be a good value overall). I must disagree about the cost relative to the Xbox hardware, it's not the Xbox's fault that it PERFORMS like a $2000 PC. ;0) We must adjust our value equation and accept a more costly peripheral relative to system cost if we expect the Xbox to replace our PC (which I hope it does since I'm sick of $300 video cards every 6-18 months). The key is longevity, these peripherals must work across 2 generations of hardware (Xbox 1 to Xbox 2) giving us over 5 years of value (I've had my TSW PC wheel for about 5 years now and it's still going strong). BTW, I think a $150 force feedback wheel would be an ideal piece of hardware, especially if they develop a system seller like GT3/Logitech combo for the PS2. I spent $150 for that combo which was 50% of my PS2 (now 75% of current PS2 prices). Frankly, GT3 lacked the racing AI to keep me interested. Steel Battalion looks amazing and with good AI and a simulation feel I could see spending months with that gem. Honestly, how many hours does the avg. guy get out of a $50 game? So far my best gaming value is Falcon 4 flight sim: 4 years and counting. Second is GPL. F1 2002 looks like it will surpass both if the mods are as good as expected since I LOVE GT racing with decent AI. -- Joe M. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4ELj9.22626$[email hidden]... > Joe, > > I love the whole idea of Steel Batallion (2 joysticks! 3 foot pedals! 40 > buttons!), but this is going to be a $200 ticket...as much as the Xbox > itself. This does not sound like a prescription for success (unless the > MechWarrior-like gameplay is a killer game). > > --Steve > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]... > > Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than my > F-22/TQS > > HOTAS. > > > > > http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b > > attalion.htm > > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > demand. > > > > -- > > Joe M. > > > > > > "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > > > Limit number of keys on controllers. > > > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a zillion > key > > > combinations... > > > > > > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > > > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for me. > > At > > > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console > world > > > > with > > > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

For posting 3 duplicates of my original message! ;0) -- Joe M.

> >I agree, Ive done a bit of racing in the past and when I booted up F355on a > >Dreamcast I was pleasantly surprised, it just had that 'on edge at speed' > >feeling, Im looking for a steering wheel/pedal setup for it now. > > If you find a good one could you let us know? All the wheels I've > purchased for my Dreamcast are totally useless. The "Concept 4" wheel isn't too bad... F355 is pretty decent, but the lack of bumps is very noticeable. It's interesting to compare the handling with the F360 in the FIA GT Mod - they share similar characteristics...

> bull. going from 800x600 to 1600x1200 increases memory usage by 11MB > for dual-buffered applications. LOL. It's not that simple I'm afraid. The Xbox's memory bandwidth would need to increase from 6.4GB/s to 25.6GB/s to maintain the same frame rates. 1600x1200 = 4X as many pixels to push around as 800x600.

Joe, Thanks for posting...and posting...and posting. No matter how good it is, no $200 "accessory" is going to sell well for the Xbox. All the more so since a) the Xbox doesn't support FF, and b) that wonderful Mech cockpit prolly won't work with *any* other game. If StBat was the only game you were gonna play...mebbe...but in general, console games don't have the "legs" of PC games like Falcon 4 (mine is till on my HD too, altho I haven't played it in abt. a year) and GPL. The odd thing is that since the Xbox runs on basically DirectX 8 (recoded as an OS), it *doesn't* support FF. No wonder MS isn't still making the much-praised Sidewinder; they've essentially given up on FF 'cuz it didn't sell as well as they wanted. Quitters. The Xbox 2 will be a totally different animal, if you believe the hype, more like an A/V receiver/set-top HDTV box/Web TV server than a console. --Steve "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2FSj9.166204$[email hidden]... > Steve, > > I agree that Steel Battalion, and the limited usefulness of thecontroller, > might be too risky a venture for the Xbox (although a rumored XBLivesequel > would be a good value overall). I must disagree about the cost relativeto > the Xbox hardware, it's not the Xbox's fault that it PERFORMS like a $2000 > PC. ;0) We must adjust our value equation and accept a more costly > peripheral relative to system cost if we expect the Xbox to replace our PC > (which I hope it does since I'm sick of $300 video cards every 6-18months). > The key is longevity, these peripherals must work across 2 generations of > hardware (Xbox 1 to Xbox 2) giving us over 5 years of value (I've had myTSW > PC wheel for about 5 years now and it's still going strong). > > BTW, I think a $150 force feedback wheel would be an ideal piece of > hardware, especially if they develop a system seller like GT3/Logitechcombo > for the PS2. I spent $150 for that combo which was 50% of my PS2 (now 75% > of current PS2 prices). Frankly, GT3 lacked the racing AI to keep me > interested. Steel Battalion looks amazing and with good AI and asimulation > feel I could see spending months with that gem. > > Honestly, how many hours does the avg. guy get out of a $50 game? So farmy

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> best gaming value is Falcon 4 flight sim: 4 years and counting. Second is > GPL. F1 2002 looks like it will surpass both if the mods are as good as > expected since I LOVE GT racing with decent AI. > > -- > Joe M. > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4ELj9.22626$[email hidden]... > > Joe, > > > > I love the whole idea of Steel Batallion (2 joysticks! 3 foot pedals! 40 > > buttons!), but this is going to be a $200 ticket...as much as the Xbox > > itself. This does not sound like a prescription for success (unless the > > MechWarrior-like gameplay is a killer game). > > > > --Steve > > > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]... > > > Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than my > > F-22/TQS > > > HOTAS. > > > > > > > > >

http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b

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> > > attalion.htm > > > > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > > demand. > > > > > > -- > > > Joe M. > > > > > > > > > "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > > > > Limit number of keys on controllers. > > > > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a

zillion

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> > key > > > > combinations... > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > > > > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right for > me. > > > At > > > > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the console > > world > > > > > with > > > > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Don't let Doug Arnao know that.... "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:amp7o0$7rf2l$[email hidden]... > > >I agree, Ive done a bit of racing in the past and when I booted up F355 > on a > > >Dreamcast I was pleasantly surprised, it just had that 'on edge atspeed'

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> > >feeling, Im looking for a steering wheel/pedal setup for it now. > > > > If you find a good one could you let us know? All the wheels I've > > purchased for my Dreamcast are totally useless. > > The "Concept 4" wheel isn't too bad... > > F355 is pretty decent, but the lack of bumps is very noticeable. It's > interesting to compare the handling with the F360 in the FIA GT Mod - they > share similar characteristics... > >

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: > > bull. going from 800x600 to 1600x1200 increases memory usage by 11MB > > for dual-buffered applications. > > LOL. It's not that simple I'm afraid. The Xbox's memory bandwidth would > need to increase from 6.4GB/s to 25.6GB/s to maintain the same frame rates. > 1600x1200 = 4X as many pixels to push around as 800x600. uhm, ok, you're right. but so am I. so I guess we're both right. what an ideal situation. :) -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 DE RECTIS NON TOLERANDUM EST

A coworker and I happened to be discussing this very thing this morning--how can they possibly sell more than a few copies of Steel Battalion at 200 bucks a copy? Then, we found out that Steel Battalion was something like the number six title in Japan currently! I don't know the exact stat, whether it was units or gross, which could obviously skew the result, but still it was much higher than I had expected... this is Japan, of course, where people like "dating games" and all sorts of weird stuff, but I would guess it would at least sell 50 percent of Japan's sales in the states... I'll be curious to see if the allow 3rd party developers to put support in their games for that controller... -dave PS. The xbox controller API is nothing like DirectInput--it's more of a normal console gamepad API like the "other platforms", but I think what's preventing a FF device for Xbox is not the API, but probably the usual issue of finding a partner to license wheels, getting developers to support it, finding a "killer app", etc, etc. I would guess they could make a new plug for a USB sidewinder in about ten seconds and get it running, but they may be hoping to make a device that can work with legacy games as well (which is one of the failings of the logitech wheels for PS2/GameCube) "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:myXj9.24673$[email hidden]... > Joe, > > Thanks for posting...and posting...and posting. > > No matter how good it is, no $200 "accessory" is going to sell well forthe > Xbox. All the more so since a) the Xbox doesn't support FF, and b) that > wonderful Mech cockpit prolly won't work with *any* other game. If StBat > was the only game you were gonna play...mebbe...but in general, console > games don't have the "legs" of PC games like Falcon 4 (mine is till on myHD > too, altho I haven't played it in abt. a year) and GPL. > > The odd thing is that since the Xbox runs on basically DirectX 8 (recodedas > an OS), it *doesn't* support FF. No wonder MS isn't still making the > much-praised Sidewinder; they've essentially given up on FF 'cuz it didn't > sell as well as they wanted. Quitters. > > The Xbox 2 will be a totally different animal, if you believe the hype,more

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> like an A/V receiver/set-top HDTV box/Web TV server than a console. > > --Steve > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:2FSj9.166204$[email hidden]... > > Steve, > > > > I agree that Steel Battalion, and the limited usefulness of the > controller, > > might be too risky a venture for the Xbox (although a rumored XBLive > sequel > > would be a good value overall). I must disagree about the cost relative > to > > the Xbox hardware, it's not the Xbox's fault that it PERFORMS like a

$2000 > > PC. ;0) We must adjust our value equation and accept a more costly > > peripheral relative to system cost if we expect the Xbox to replace ourPC > > (which I hope it does since I'm sick of $300 video cards every 6-18 > months). > > The key is longevity, these peripherals must work across 2 generationsof

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> > hardware (Xbox 1 to Xbox 2) giving us over 5 years of value (I've had my > TSW > > PC wheel for about 5 years now and it's still going strong). > > > > BTW, I think a $150 force feedback wheel would be an ideal piece of > > hardware, especially if they develop a system seller like GT3/Logitech > combo > > for the PS2. I spent $150 for that combo which was 50% of my PS2 (now

75% > > of current PS2 prices). Frankly, GT3 lacked the racing AI to keep me > > interested. Steel Battalion looks amazing and with good AI and a > simulation > > feel I could see spending months with that gem. > > > > Honestly, how many hours does the avg. guy get out of a $50 game? Sofar > my > > best gaming value is Falcon 4 flight sim: 4 years and counting. Secondis

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> > GPL. F1 2002 looks like it will surpass both if the mods are as good as > > expected since I LOVE GT racing with decent AI. > > > > -- > > Joe M. > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:4ELj9.22626$[email hidden]... > > > Joe, > > > > > > I love the whole idea of Steel Batallion (2 joysticks! 3 foot pedals!

40 > > > buttons!), but this is going to be a $200 ticket...as much as the Xbox > > > itself. This does not sound like a prescription for success (unlessthe

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> > > MechWarrior-like gameplay is a killer game). > > > > > > --Steve > > > > > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]... > > > > Check out the controller for Steel Battalion, more complex than my > > > F-22/TQS > > > > HOTAS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

http://www.game-revolution.com/previews/screens/xbox/steel_battalion/steel_b > > > > attalion.htm > > > > > > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost&

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> > > > demand. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Joe M. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Trick Dacy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:%ngj9.127543$[email hidden]... > > > > > Limit number of keys on controllers. > > > > > Imagine playing a decent flightsim on an Xbox which requires a > zillion > > > key > > > > > combinations... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > > > > > Qwej9.13257$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Until they are running 1600X1200 consoles will never be right

for

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> > me. > > > > At > > > > > > least not at current console/game prices. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:Mp6j9.124400$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > The PC is still the winner or can we migrate towards the

console

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> > > world > > > > > > with > > > > > > > no pain? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Dave, Would an Xbox game programmed to send vibrations even put out data that could usefully be reinterpreted as vector forces, damping, etc? Seems to me that if a car game only needs to send out a vibration command to represent tire squeal or hitting a wall, the best FF wheel in the world isn't going to do any good because the program just isn't generating the data that the wheel needs to see. "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d9106a1$0$79559$[email hidden]... > The xbox controller API is nothing like DirectInput--it's more of a > normal console gamepad API like the "other platforms", but I thinkwhat's > preventing a FF device for Xbox is not the API, but probably the usualissue > of finding a partner to license wheels, getting developers to supportit, > finding a "killer app", etc, etc. I would guess they could make a newplug > for a USB sidewinder in about ten seconds and get it running, but theymay > be hoping to make a device that can work with legacy games as well(which is > one of the failings of the logitech wheels for PS2/GameCube) >

Not really; you could probably fake something up but it wouldn't be much better than just rumble. If they come out with a FF device on the xbox, it will require games to explicitly support it, like on PS2 and GC. I really have no idea why Microsoft has not come up with a FF mechanism/API yet, as it should be trivial as a technical issue and they have acres of cash--I'm guessing it must be business/internal politics of some sort, or perhaps that they still instinctively avoid anything that resembles a PC... it could also have something to do with Immersion (this is pure speculation!!!)--I have the idea that there are some weird entanglements with the wheel mfgrs. The gamecube FF scheme is pretty good in that it plugs in to a regular controller socket and has most of the gamecube controls, so you don't have the insanity of trying to sort out multitaps and USB hubs; the only problem is that it won't even work as a passive wheel without custom application support... MS should really make a wheel that will be backwards compatible as well as allowing FF to new games, since they've already missed it with their big driving sellers like PGR. Since they are practically a niche market at this point, IMHO they should do everything possible to establish themselves as the "premium" console (HDTV support, 5.1 encoding, etc.), and having a high quality driving controller is one part of this. -dave "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:amr2it$8c1he$[email hidden]...

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> Dave, > > Would an Xbox game programmed to send vibrations even put out data that > could usefully be reinterpreted as vector forces, damping, etc? Seems > to me that if a car game only needs to send out a vibration command to > represent tire squeal or hitting a wall, the best FF wheel in the world > isn't going to do any good because the program just isn't generating the > data that the wheel needs to see. > > > "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3d9106a1$0$79559$[email hidden]... > > > The xbox controller API is nothing like DirectInput--it's more of a > > normal console gamepad API like the "other platforms", but I think > what's > > preventing a FF device for Xbox is not the API, but probably the usual > issue > > of finding a partner to license wheels, getting developers to support > it, > > finding a "killer app", etc, etc. I would guess they could make a new > plug > > for a USB sidewinder in about ten seconds and get it running, but they > may > > be hoping to make a device that can work with legacy games as well > (which is > > one of the failings of the logitech wheels for PS2/GameCube) > > > >

"Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]>... > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > demand. I doubt that. Could the X-Box run Flight Simulator (Pro) 2002? I think not!

[email hidden] (Phoenix Knight) writes: > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]>... > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > demand. > > I doubt that. Could the X-Box run Flight Simulator (Pro) 2002? I think not! why not? a simlilarly-specced PC will run it fine(-ish). -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 silence is FOO!

You think wrong! ;0) The Xbox runs Morrowind just fine. A game that barely gets over 30 fps on state-of-the-art PC's. MW is a bigger system hog than FS2002 from my own experience (FS 2002 runs in the 40's while MW can barely crack 25 fps). You underestimate the power of a dedicated gaming machine running at only 640x480 resolution. The Xbox is very impressive take a look at Enclave, Halo, NFL 2K3, etc. BTW, simulation *performance* is not the issue, it's market demand for such games and appropriate steering wheel/flight stick/kb-mouse availability. -- Joe M. "Phoenix Knight" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]>... > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > demand. > > I doubt that. Could the X-Box run Flight Simulator (Pro) 2002? I think not!

Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> [email hidden] (Phoenix Knight) writes: > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]>... > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & > > > demand. > > > > I doubt that. Could the X-Box run Flight Simulator (Pro) 2002? I think not! > > why not? a simlilarly-specced PC will run it fine(-ish).

Because there's just so much depth to the Flight Simulator series. Especially the latest ones. So many options to tweek and fiddle with. You can download planes and landscapes. You can even install a few dozen add-on packs, which totally change the game from how Microsoft wanted it to look at first to how you want it to look. I don't imagine consoles becoming quite so advanced for a long while.

Ahemmmm. Two examples, DOA3 and Moto GP. In the case of MotoGP it's patchable to online play for the Xbox. So yes, you can tweak and add features to released games on the Xbox. MS is setting up Xbox Live for just this purpose (downloadable $$$ content). Pretty advanced what? -- ==================================================== "Phoenix Knight" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... : Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... : > [email hidden] (Phoenix Knight) writes: : > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ldFj9.236298$[email hidden]>... : > > > Consoles *can* match the realism and complexity, it's all about cost & : > > > demand. : > > : > > I doubt that. Could the X-Box run Flight Simulator (Pro) 2002? I think not! : > : > why not? a simlilarly-specced PC will run it fine(-ish). : : Because there's just so much depth to the Flight Simulator series. : Especially the latest ones. So many options to tweek and fiddle with. : You can download planes and landscapes. You can even install a few : dozen add-on packs, which totally change the game from how Microsoft : wanted it to look at first to how you want it to look. : : I don't imagine consoles becoming quite so advanced for a long while.