OT: Why Consoles are Killing Sims (for now)

I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAY ONE on the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHEST price ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun, good looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC shooters, but at $20 it was a well priced value. I choked on my morning coffee when I stumbled upon the $49.99 pre-order price for an old PC port than never sold for more than 20 bucks and could be bought today on the PC for about the cost of a Star Bucks Venti Caramel Macchiato and 2 Krispy Kreme donuts. This partly explains why Papyrus is going console, the West Bros. couldn't get WSC published (Total Immersion Racing is a $50 Xbox title that WSC "coulda' been"), Falcon 5 will never see the light of day, etc. I'm not claiming this is the death of our hobby (flight/racing). It is another frustrating obstacle that will reduce the frequency and quantity of PC simulations. PS-I'm also warning Xbox owners to save $43 and buy SS for the PC. It will run on a fairly old system so don't worry about hardware requirements. -- Joe Marques

In my expereince, I have found that pre-orders are just stamped at $49.99. Once the product was released, then the price was dropped. I've pre-ordered a couple of games this way and that has been the case. The games I ordered dropped to $34.99 when released, different than the pre-order price given. Not sure if this is the way it works or not, just an observation. "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. > > Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAY ONEon > the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHEST price > ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few > months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun,good > looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC shooters, > but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > I choked on my morning coffee when I stumbled upon the $49.99 pre-order > price for an old PC port than never sold for more than 20 bucks and couldbe > bought today on the PC for about the cost of a Star Bucks Venti Caramel > Macchiato and 2 Krispy Kreme donuts. This partly explains why Papyrus is > going console, the West Bros. couldn't get WSC published (Total Immersion > Racing is a $50 Xbox title that WSC "coulda' been"), Falcon 5 will neversee > the light of day, etc. > > I'm not claiming this is the death of our hobby (flight/racing). It is > another frustrating obstacle that will reduce the frequency and quantityof > PC simulations. > > PS-I'm also warning Xbox owners to save $43 and buy SS for the PC. Itwill

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> run on a fairly old system so don't worry about hardware requirements. > > -- > Joe Marques > > >

If what you propose is correct, then the PC is in serious trouble. It's no secret that the high-end side of the PC industry is totally game driven. If the desire for PC gaming whithers, then one has to wonder what will become of the PC itself... -Larry "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. > > Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAY ONEon > the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHEST price > ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few > months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun,good > looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC shooters, > but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > I choked on my morning coffee when I stumbled upon the $49.99 pre-order > price for an old PC port than never sold for more than 20 bucks and couldbe > bought today on the PC for about the cost of a Star Bucks Venti Caramel > Macchiato and 2 Krispy Kreme donuts. This partly explains why Papyrus is > going console, the West Bros. couldn't get WSC published (Total Immersion > Racing is a $50 Xbox title that WSC "coulda' been"), Falcon 5 will neversee > the light of day, etc. > > I'm not claiming this is the death of our hobby (flight/racing). It is > another frustrating obstacle that will reduce the frequency and quantityof > PC simulations. > > PS-I'm also warning Xbox owners to save $43 and buy SS for the PC. Itwill

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> run on a fairly old system so don't worry about hardware requirements. > > -- > Joe Marques > > >

"Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]...

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> I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. > > Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAY ONE on > the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHEST price > ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few > months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun, good > looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC shooters, > but at $20 it was a well priced value. >

Actually, Serious Sam for the Xbox is both versions of the game.

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> I choked on my morning coffee when I stumbled upon the $49.99 pre-order > price for an old PC port than never sold for more than 20 bucks and could be > bought today on the PC for about the cost of a Star Bucks Venti Caramel > Macchiato and 2 Krispy Kreme donuts. This partly explains why Papyrus is > going console, the West Bros. couldn't get WSC published (Total Immersion > Racing is a $50 Xbox title that WSC "coulda' been"), Falcon 5 will never see > the light of day, etc. > > I'm not claiming this is the death of our hobby (flight/racing). It is > another frustrating obstacle that will reduce the frequency and quantity of > PC simulations. > > PS-I'm also warning Xbox owners to save $43 and buy SS for the PC. It will > run on a fairly old system so don't worry about hardware requirements. > > -- > Joe Marques > > >

I also think the development costs for a game for a console(s) is cheaper because you only have 2 or 3 configurations maximum to worry about. With PC games, I would think, you have all the worries about drivers and compatibility issues. That being said, I haven't owned a console since the original Sega Genesis. -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. > > Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAY ONE on > the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHEST price > ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few > months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun, good > looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC shooters, > but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > I choked on my morning coffee when I stumbled upon the $49.99 pre-order > price for an old PC port than never sold for more than 20 bucks and could be > bought today on the PC for about the cost of a Star Bucks Venti Caramel > Macchiato and 2 Krispy Kreme donuts. This partly explains why Papyrus is > going console, the West Bros. couldn't get WSC published (Total Immersion > Racing is a $50 Xbox title that WSC "coulda' been"), Falcon 5 will never see > the light of day, etc. > > I'm not claiming this is the death of our hobby (flight/racing). It is > another frustrating obstacle that will reduce the frequency and quantity of > PC simulations. > > PS-I'm also warning Xbox owners to save $43 and buy SS for the PC. It will > run on a fairly old system so don't worry about hardware requirements. > > -- > Joe Marques > > >

N64 here. The girlfriend liked Zelda. MadDAWG

Hard to argue with that! -- Regards Peter "MiGMan" Inglis - [email hidden] MiGMan's Flight Sim Museum - www.migman.com - subscribe - www.migman.com/subscribe.htm Combatsim.com members get a special deal! - www.migman.com/ref/offers/combatsim.htm HOTAS COUGAR preferred retailer - www.migman.com/hw/control/tm/cougar.htm "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. <<snip>

Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0wZk9.34244$[email hidden]... > If the desire for PC gaming whithers, then one has to wonder what > will become of the PC itself... Placed into a square case with Microsoft stamped on the outside... Si

"Scott�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sUZk9.1323$p03.754@fe01... > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > > I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam(a > > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why somany > > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. > > > > Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAYONE on > > the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHESTprice > > ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few > > months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun,good > > looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PCshooters, > > but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > > > Actually, Serious Sam for the Xbox is both versions of the game. >(snip) From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (XBox) = $49.99 with ETA 12 November 2002. From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (PC) = $29.99 with ETA 21 January 2003. From Babbage's website: Serious Sam (Original(PC)) = $6.99 available now. Why would I pay $30 OR $50 when I can buy BOTH games (PC version) for under $22 ($6.99 (SS1) + $14.99 (SS2))? Actually I think I bought both versions when they were on sale for $9.99 each (several months apart, of course) so it was slightly less than $20. Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer. Have they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to pay exorbitant prices for products? -- callsignviper The truth is out there. You just have to look in the right places and ask the right questions.

"Simon Robbins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:an29ac$355$1$[email hidden]...

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> > Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:0wZk9.34244$[email hidden]... > > If the desire for PC gaming whithers, then one has to wonder what > > will become of the PC itself... > > Placed into a square case with Microsoft stamped on the outside... > > Si

Yeah, it's called the XBox. Didn't Uwe say someone is running Unix on one already? - Dave

"callsignviper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3M2l9.424350$[email hidden]... > > Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer. Have > they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to pay exorbitant > prices for products? Heh. The only concept is how they can get mom or dad to whip out the credit card. - Dave

> > Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer.Have > they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to payexorbitant > prices for products? > > > -- > callsignviper LMAO, Well I look at the prices I paid for the sims I had to pay for and I agree. UNTIL........I look at the thousands of dollars I have spent to upgrade my computer and peripherals in the name of flight simming. Now who is the intelligent one? LOL Dusty Rhodes

"callsignviper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3M2l9.424350$[email hidden]... > > "Scott�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:sUZk9.1323$p03.754@fe01... > Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer.Have > they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to payexorbitant > prices for products? > > Some console gamers don't have a PC capable of playing those kinds of games. I have a PS2, but I pretty much keep it around just to play Japanese games (Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo 3) and occasionally a fighting or lightgun game. For any game that's available on the PC, I get the PC version because it's usually cheaper and will look better on a monitor.

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> -- > callsignviper > > > The truth is out there. You just have to look in the right places and ask > the right questions. > >

Consoles are not "Killing Sims" IMO and please enough of the "us versus them" mentality. The average console gamer is reported to be 27, so asking for money from mom at that age would be quite sad. Not sure where that stat came from, but I've seen it several times. I would imagine that the 'smart' console gamer would A) First rent the game, then B) make a purchasing decision based on that. Depending on the console they'll probably go right to Z) Burn it! If they decide to buy, they tend to pay more (well at least for Xbox games) for new releases. 1 year old Xbox games are around 1/3rd to cost of new (example PGR and Azurik, etc). Now keep in mind that the console games "system" probably cost 1/5th to 1/10th that of the PC gamers. ==================================================== "Dave Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zR2l9.3685$[email hidden]... : "callsignviper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:3M2l9.424350$[email hidden]... : > : > Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer. Have : > they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to pay exorbitant : > prices for products? : : Heh. The only concept is how they can get mom or dad to whip out the credit : card. : : - Dave : :

Dave Cook wrote: > > Yeah, it's called the XBox. Didn't Uwe say someone is running Unix on one > already? There is some sort of competition going on about installing Linux on it, can't remember the particulars though, was some restrictions as to how much you could modify it Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

There were no restrictions - if you got it running Linux period, you got a prize. The big prizes, though, are out there for those who can do it with relatively minimal mods - the biggest is for someone who can make a bootable CD that will install it without a single hardware mod to the XBox. Milhouse "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Dave Cook wrote: > > > > Yeah, it's called the XBox. Didn't Uwe say someone is running Unix onone

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> > already? > > There is some sort of competition going on about installing Linux on it, > can't remember the particulars though, was some restrictions as to how > much you could modify it > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Then I guess I won't be needing to upgrade my pc every year and a half to play sims after N2003 comes out. Maybe that can finally convince me to put money in some real racing action :) -- Philippe "Philster" Sergerie "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. > > Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAY ONE on > the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHEST price > ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few > months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun, good > looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC shooters, > but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > I choked on my morning coffee when I stumbled upon the $49.99 pre-order > price for an old PC port than never sold for more than 20 bucks and could be > bought today on the PC for about the cost of a Star Bucks Venti Caramel > Macchiato and 2 Krispy Kreme donuts. This partly explains why Papyrus is > going console, the West Bros. couldn't get WSC published (Total Immersion > Racing is a $50 Xbox title that WSC "coulda' been"), Falcon 5 will never see > the light of day, etc. > > I'm not claiming this is the death of our hobby (flight/racing). It is > another frustrating obstacle that will reduce the frequency and quantity of > PC simulations. > > PS-I'm also warning Xbox owners to save $43 and buy SS for the PC. It will > run on a fairly old system so don't worry about hardware requirements. > > -- > Joe Marques > > >

callsignviper wrote:

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> "Scott�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:sUZk9.1323$p03.754@fe01... > >>"Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... >> >>>It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC >>> shooters, but at $20 it was a well priced value. >> Actually, Serious Sam for the Xbox is both versions of the game. > (snip) > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (XBox) = $49.99 with ETA 12 > November 2002. > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (PC) = $29.99 with ETA 21 January > 2003. > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam (Original(PC)) = $6.99 available now. > > > Why would I pay $30 OR $50 when I can buy BOTH games (PC version) for under > $22 ($6.99 (SS1) + $14.99 (SS2))? Actually I think I bought both versions > when they were on sale for $9.99 each (several months apart, of course) so > it was slightly less than $20. > > Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer. Have > they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to pay exorbitant > prices for products?

Makes me wonder about the PC gamers, myself. Have they no concept of the value of game time? The reason that PC games are cheaper (in some cases, not in all as PSX games are often in the $10 range now) is that PC games are largely a do-it-yourself proposition. The $20 you save isn't any bargain if it takes an hour to get the game working. The PC gamer does a whole lot of the work himself; work which console games take care of. The last game I bought for XBox was Sega GT 2002, along with the Mad Catz MC2 wheel setup (nice wheel, btw). From the time I got home with the goods to the time I was playing the game with the wheel working perfectly was just about 10 minutes flat. You can't do that sort of thing on a PC at all. If you put a wheel on a PC then you get to install the drivers, play 20 questions with "Install Shield", and then you get to do the same thing with the new game. Moreover, there's no guarantee that the game will even work with that peripheral after you've spent the better part of an hour jumping through hoops. I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was Duke Nukem3D, and after fighting with that game for days trying to tweak every setting just right, something snapped. I bit my lip, tasted blood and promptly smashed my keyboard (I hated that keyboard anyway). I will not ever fight to make my entertainment work again. I want entertainment that works for ME, not the other way around. Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your $20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

"Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. > > Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! > Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! > Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. > Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and > they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. >

So what you are saying is that console gamers are lazy and/or retarded? > It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing > home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your > $20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy. > I can't remember the last time I had any big problems with my computer getting games to run. It must have been over a year ago. All that stuff you are brining up is old, tired arguements.

"Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <snip history of problems running PC games> > I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was DukeNukem3D, LOL well no wonder all you can recount are horror stories of playing PC games, ROFL! You might want to consider waking up to the 21st century and trying out the 8 or 9 versions of Windows that have come out since then. Life is pretty good on the PC gaming side now. Sheesh. (rolls eyes) -- Bob Perez "Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing." - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was Duke Nukem3D, >and after fighting with that game for days trying to tweak every setting >just right, something snapped. I bit my lip, tasted blood and promptly >smashed my keyboard (I hated that keyboard anyway). I will not ever fight >to make my entertainment work again. I want entertainment that works for >ME, not the other way around. >

DN 3D worked perfectly for me first time... I never had a problem with it.

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>Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. > >Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! >Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! >Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. >Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and >they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. > >It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing >home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your >$20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy.

Hmm, I've gotten about 98% of the games I buy(and I buy a LOT) to work with no problem. The other 2% don't give me enough trouble to want to give upon the whole platform. Oh well - your choice. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

magnulus wrote:

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> "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. >> >>Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! >>Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! >>Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. >>Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and >>they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. > So what you are saying is that console gamers are lazy and/or retarded?

No, I'm saying that they want to have FUN! You've heard of that, right? FUN? Where you enjoy what you're doing? Have a pleasant experience? There's NOTHING pleasant about fighting with a setup program that can't even detect what freakin' sound card you have. Why in the heck should I have to know that I'm running a Soundblaster 32 with an IRQ of 7 and an IO address of 220? I WANT TO PLAY A GAME. I'm on my free time, I'm looking for something to do, and playing "how well do you know your PC's config" is not my idea of a game. I WANT TO PLAY A GAME! No, I don't want to fill out a survey. No, I don't want to register online. No, I don't want to install Adobe Acrobat reader. No, I don't want to receive e-mail offers. No, I don't want to get a trial subscription to a sucky magazine. I WANT TO PLAY THE DAMNED GAME! Is that too much to ask? I want to take the disc, put it in the drive, and PLAY. It's such a simple request. Consoles have been doing that for over a decade now, but can PC's do that? NO! They insist on pissing me off.

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>>It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing >>home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your >>$20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy. > I can't remember the last time I had any big problems with my computer > getting games to run. It must have been over a year ago. All that stuff > you are brining up is old, tired arguements.

That's total B.S. I just bought a new monitor (plug and pray, hehehe) for my new PC. The MONITOR (Viewsonic) came with an install disc. This is SEVEN YEARS after Windows 95 promised Plug-and-Play, and EASY things like VGA monitors still come with driver discs. Even worse, the "autorun" didn't even work. Apparently Windows XP is such an upgrade that silly things like autobooting discs are a thing of the past. I had to look at the autorun file to see which program the damned install wanted to run, run it, and then I had to know that Windows XP is basically a sequel to Windows 2000 which is basically a sequel to Windows NT. Otherwise I wouldn't have known to grab the drivers for NT. THAT SUCKS. Plus it had to restart the machine. That's PATHETIC. I'm not technologically illiterate. Far from it, I'm a telecommunications field technician and I'm used to fighting with broken machines all the time (and winning), but I get PAID to do that because it's work. I don't want to do that when I'm trying to PLAY. If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth beans. It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running a Hitachi SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? I sure don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to the road. It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's under the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Bob Perez wrote:

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> "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > <snip history of problems running PC games> > >>I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was Duke > > Nukem3D, > > LOL well no wonder all you can recount are horror stories of playing PC > games, ROFL! You might want to consider waking up to the 21st century and > trying out the 8 or 9 versions of Windows that have come out since then. > Life is pretty good on the PC gaming side now. Sheesh. (rolls eyes)

I just got to play with Windows XP. On this machine, I mean the one I'm posting on. It sucks. I still haven't fixed my Logitech trackball (dumb box thinks it's a PS/2 mouse), it took me great effort to get the drivers working for my "plug and play" monitor, and I had to install my scanner. This is 2002. Windows 95 was supposed to fix all of that. Yeah, there has been 8 or 9 versions of Windows since then, and I've used most of 'em. There's not supposed to BE any installation anymore. So why does everything still come with installation discs? It's pathetic. I can honestly say that I've never had a console game ask me if I wanted a full or a custom install. They tend to say "Press Start". I've never had a console say "new hardware detected, would you like to install drivers for it?". That is bar none the stupidest damned question ever. It's not there for the LOOKS, you dumb freaking box! For a console to match that stupidity, it would have to say "new game detected, would you like to play it?". PLAY IT! JUST GO AHEAD AND PLAY IT! There's nothing that pushes my buttons like stupidity. If it's THERE, it's because I put it THERE, so I want it THERE. Is that logic too hard to follow? Why can't a PC get that? Consoles do. My Xbox doesn't ask about new hardware when I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. I hate PC's. Inefficient pieces of crap get beat all to hell by consoles with less than a quarter of their power. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Is that not what DirectX was designed in the first place? As an interface to all the different PC setups that are possible so the developers wouldn't had to worry about that anymore. -- Lange, 666th Black Brigade http://www.666th.com ICQ: 15439346 "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fJ_k9.1395$[email hidden]... > I also think the development costs for a game for a console(s) is cheaper > because you only have 2 or 3 configurations maximum to worry about. > > With PC games, I would think, you have all the worries about drivers and > compatibility issues. > > That being said, I haven't owned a console since the original Sega Genesis. > > -- > Scott B. Husted > PA-Scott > ICQ# 4395450 > http://www.Husted.cc > > > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > > I'm posting to my two favorite sim groups after seeing that Serious Sam (a > > PC shooter) is $49.99 US for the Xbox. I think this explains why so many > > game publishers and developers are clamoring to capture a share of the > > console market and abandoning (temporarily) niche PC markets. > > > > Serious Sam is an 18 months old PC game that sold for $19.99 from DAY ONE > on > > the PC (it currently sells for $6.99). Yes, $19.99 was it's HIGHEST price > > ever. The sequel, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, was released a few > > months ago and sold for $19.99. Serious Sam represented a simple, fun, > good > > looking shooter. It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC shooters, > > but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > > > I choked on my morning coffee when I stumbled upon the $49.99 pre-order > > price for an old PC port than never sold for more than 20 bucks and could > be > > bought today on the PC for about the cost of a Star Bucks Venti Caramel > > Macchiato and 2 Krispy Kreme donuts. This partly explains why Papyrus is > > going console, the West Bros. couldn't get WSC published (Total Immersion > > Racing is a $50 Xbox title that WSC "coulda' been"), Falcon 5 will never > see > > the light of day, etc. > > > > I'm not claiming this is the death of our hobby (flight/racing). It is > > another frustrating obstacle that will reduce the frequency and quantity > of > > PC simulations. > > > > PS-I'm also warning Xbox owners to save $43 and buy SS for the PC. It > will > > run on a fairly old system so don't worry about hardware requirements. > > > > -- > > Joe Marques > > > > > > > >

Agree but then you also have to consider this... Does your console run Office programs? Does your console run drawing programs? Does your console run music programs? Does your console run wordprocessers? Does your console run database programs? Does your console run mail programs? Does your console run video editing programs? etc.... Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, and all the other stuff. And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice installing driver problems etc... There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. PS: Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? -- Lange, 666th Black Brigade http://www.666th.com ICQ: 15439346 "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > callsignviper wrote: > > "Scott�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:sUZk9.1323$p03.754@fe01... > > > >>"Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > >> > >>>It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC > >>> shooters, but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > >> Actually, Serious Sam for the Xbox is both versions of the game. > > > (snip) > > > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (XBox) = $49.99 with ETA 12 > > November 2002. > > > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (PC) = $29.99 with ETA 21 January > > 2003. > > > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam (Original(PC)) = $6.99 available now. > > > > > > Why would I pay $30 OR $50 when I can buy BOTH games (PC version) for under > > $22 ($6.99 (SS1) + $14.99 (SS2))? Actually I think I bought both versions > > when they were on sale for $9.99 each (several months apart, of course) so > > it was slightly less than $20. > > > > Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer. Have > > they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to pay exorbitant > > prices for products? > > Makes me wonder about the PC gamers, myself. Have they no concept of the > value of game time? The reason that PC games are cheaper (in some cases, > not in all as PSX games are often in the $10 range now) is that PC games > are largely a do-it-yourself proposition. The $20 you save isn't any > bargain if it takes an hour to get the game working. The PC gamer does a > whole lot of the work himself; work which console games take care of. > > The last game I bought for XBox was Sega GT 2002, along with the Mad Catz > MC2 wheel setup (nice wheel, btw). From the time I got home with the > goods to the time I was playing the game with the wheel working perfectly > was just about 10 minutes flat. You can't do that sort of thing on a > PC at all. If you put a wheel on a PC then you get to install the drivers, > play 20 questions with "Install Shield", and then you get to do the same > thing with the new game. Moreover, there's no guarantee that the game will > even work with that peripheral after you've spent the better part of an > hour jumping through hoops. > > I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was Duke Nukem3D, > and after fighting with that game for days trying to tweak every setting > just right, something snapped. I bit my lip, tasted blood and promptly > smashed my keyboard (I hated that keyboard anyway). I will not ever fight > to make my entertainment work again. I want entertainment that works for > ME, not the other way around. > > Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. > > Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! > Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! > Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. > Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and > they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. > > It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing > home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your > $20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy. > > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:33:27 GMT, "Lange_666th" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Is that not what DirectX was designed in the first place? As an interface to >all the different PC setups that are possible so the developers wouldn't had >to worry about that anymore. It failed there by growing a new version each version, and you still have a lot of hardware-detection to do anyway. But that's the glory of PC's. It's designed that way, to get more progress, but at a bigger cost. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:41:27 GMT, "Lange_666th" <[email hidden]> wrote: ... >PS: >Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? >And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. >Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? I have both, and they both have their place. PC's for a kind of games (like racing) and consoles for other types of games (jump & run). The consoles are great since they're less fuss, and they play on my TV while I sit on my couch. The PC is nicer when it comes to more cutting edge stuff; it's more flexible, but also it gives more headaches when trying to get a game to run as you want. It's the same as having an oven and a microwave. Or is that a bad example? ;-) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Lange_666th wrote:

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> Agree but then you also have to consider this... > Does your console run Office programs? > Does your console run drawing programs? > Does your console run music programs? > Does your console run wordprocessers? > Does your console run database programs? > Does your console run mail programs? > Does your console run video editing programs? > etc....

You have to consider this... Does anybody do that at home? > Does your console run Office programs? Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. > Does your console run drawing programs? If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > Does your console run music programs? Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > Does your console run wordprocessers? I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a word processor for a toy. > Does your console run database programs? Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > Does your console run mail programs? No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do that. The PC is just a source of spam. > Does your console run video editing programs? Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT job. That's what consoles are. > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, and all > the other stuff. If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > installing driver problems etc... > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > PS: > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house. > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

"There's no good reason to game on a PC." Unless you want to run Racing Sims instead of arcade games that is. "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Lange_666th wrote: > > Agree but then you also have to consider this... > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > Does your console run music programs? > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > Does your console run database programs? > > Does your console run mail programs? > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > etc.... > > You have to consider this... > Does anybody do that at home? > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could > honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > > > Does your console run music programs? > > Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. > I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a > word processor for a toy. > > > Does your console run database programs? > > Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. > There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do > that. The PC is just a source of spam. > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the > heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than > kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > > > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > > Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT > job. That's what consoles are. > > > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, and

all

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> > the other stuff. > > If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > > installing driver problems etc... > > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. > > I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing > with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes > up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS > ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games > inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a > PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > > > PS: > > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? > > That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console > gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". > Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". > To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black > and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works > or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house. > > > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. > > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? > > Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to > game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at > getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. > > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> writes:

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>PLAY IT! JUST GO AHEAD AND PLAY IT! There's nothing that pushes my >buttons like stupidity. If it's THERE, it's because I put it THERE, >so I want it THERE. Is that logic too hard to follow? Why can't a >PC get that? Consoles do. My Xbox doesn't ask about new hardware when >I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. > >I hate PC's. Inefficient pieces of crap get beat all to hell by >consoles with less than a quarter of their power.

Yow. Sounds like you have deeper issues than we can solve HERE... It's only a game, dude. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > LOL well no wonder all you can recount are horror stories of playing PC > > games, ROFL! You might want to consider waking up to the 21st centuryand

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> > trying out the 8 or 9 versions of Windows that have come out since then. > > Life is pretty good on the PC gaming side now. Sheesh. (rolls eyes) > I just got to play with Windows XP. On this machine, I mean the one I'm > posting on. It sucks. I still haven't fixed my Logitech trackball (dumb > box thinks it's a PS/2 mouse), it took me great effort to get the drivers > working for my "plug and play" monitor, and I had to install my scanner.

Charles, trust me: it's you and your hardware, it's not the system. My routine is simple: I walk out of a store with a game, I take it home, pull the CD out of the box, pop it into my CD tray, the autoplay comes up, I click on "Install", and a few minutes later it's installed and I'm playing. I have no idea what kind of hardware you're using that's giving you problems, but if the last PC game that you bought was Duke Nukem 3D then I can only imagine ... come into the 21st century, bud, it's nice up here! > There's not supposed to BE any installation anymore. So why does > everything still come with installation discs? It's pathetic. Who says there's not supposed to be any installation? What mythology is this? You prefer being limited to the access times of reading data off of a CD drive, or the volume limitations of a cartridge? Not me, I prefer installing all of the "moving parts" to my much, much faster hard drive and enjoying this benefit every time I play the game subsequently instead of your approach of saving the one-time installation time and then paying the price every time you play the game. Think about it, then go out and upgrade and get back to enjoying some real games. ;-) -- Bob Perez "You are so clueless, you couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues even if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance." -- Edward Flaherty

Telecom feild tech that couldnt get DN running on a PC makes me wonder about telecom feild techs ;-) PC's are still cumbersome to use compared to a console but technical ability isn't a prerequisite as it was just a few short years ago (as you describe). In the world of XP and compatible hardware all you need to do is stick the darn CD in the drive and viola, it's running. If you expect your ancient Sound Blaster to work without issues then your expectations far outweigh reality. When and IF the console games reach the quality of current PC games with all of the required accessories, as in a KB, internet connection, wheels/pedals, hotas's, etc etc then maybe I'll plunk down my $150. Till then there isn't any comparison of the two platforms. I guess the bottom line is you just arent *hardcore* about the sims you use. I would do whatever it takes to run a quality realistic Racing sim. If that means jumping through hoops then thats what I'll do. Up till this point there have been *NO* titles for any console that would give me any reason to switch. I'll steal your analolgy... >It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's under > the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. Mitch When you can play Nascar 2002 on your Sega Saturn in under a minute then come talk to us :-) "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > I'm not technologically illiterate. Far from it, I'm a telecommunications > field technician and I'm used to fighting with broken machines all thetime > (and winning), but I get PAID to do that because it's work. I don't wantto

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> do that when I'm trying to PLAY. > > If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth beans. > It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running a Hitachi > SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this > stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do > anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? I

sure > don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so > bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to theroad.

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> It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's under > the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

> I just got to play with Windows XP. On this machine, I mean the one I'm > posting on. It sucks. I still haven't fixed my Logitech trackball (dumb > box thinks it's a PS/2 mouse), it took me great effort to get the drivers > working for my "plug and play" monitor, and I had to install my scanner. I have no problems with most games under XP. The only ones that give me any trouble whatsoever are older games that were designed and published long before XP was even announced. > This is 2002. Windows 95 was supposed to fix all of that. Yeah, there > has been 8 or 9 versions of Windows since then, and I've used most of > 'em. There's not supposed to BE any installation anymore. So why does > everything still come with installation discs? It's pathetic. You honestly expect *any* operating system to come with "out of the box" drivers for every hardware device you could possibly stick in the machine? Please. The only alternative is to provide drivers with the hardware, most of which is now very easy to install and works well. > I can honestly say that I've never had a console game ask me if I wanted > a full or a custom install. They tend to say "Press Start". Because you don't *install* a console game. It sits on the disc and runs from there. Totally different way of doing things. > I've never had a console say "new hardware detected, would you like to > install drivers for it?". That is bar none the stupidest damned question > ever. It's not there for the LOOKS, you dumb freaking box! For a console > to match that stupidity, it would have to say "new game detected, would > you like to play it?". Once again, when was the last time you installed new hardware on a console? > PLAY IT! JUST GO AHEAD AND PLAY IT! There's nothing that pushes my > buttons like stupidity. If it's THERE, it's because I put it THERE, > so I want it THERE. Is that logic too hard to follow? Why can't a > PC get that? Consoles do. My Xbox doesn't ask about new hardware when > I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. Because console controllers are designed to send the same inputs to the console, no matter what their physical form. You ever notice that your Xbox racing wheel (if you have one) has two pedals that map to (usually) the triggers, and still has six buttons marked the same as the standard gamepad? The funny thing is that you people are the same ones who bitch, whine and moan when their PC does something *without* asking. Which way do you want it? > I hate PC's. Inefficient pieces of crap get beat all to hell by > consoles with less than a quarter of their power. Oh, boy. Here we go with that one again. A console is a SINGLE-USE machine. It plays games. That's what it does. PC's play games, browse the web, manage spreadsheets, write documents in any of dozens of formats, maintain and/or query databases, handle your email, write code, provide scheduling, design machinery, prepare taxes, read newsgroups, and thousands of other tasks, usually without much of your intervention. They aren't optimized and designed solely for gaming like consoles are. I own an Xbox. I like it. I have nothing against consoles. But to bash PC's for not being consoles is just plain stupid. Many people don't feel like dealing with the occasional headaches you get from PC games, which is one reason they play console games. That's fine. You yourself sound like somebody who would be better off with an Xbox and a Webtv. Chris --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002

"Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Lange_666th wrote: > > Agree but then you also have to consider this... > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > Does your console run music programs? > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > Does your console run database programs? > > Does your console run mail programs? > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > etc.... > > You have to consider this... > Does anybody do that at home?

Yes, plenty of people do. Join the 21st century. > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. The irrelevancy of this argument aside, PC's are often used as tools in the home as well as the office. They aren't *just* for gaming. > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could > honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. So your usage pattern determines what everybody else needs too? I use Paint all the time on my home PC. > > Does your console run music programs? > > Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. > I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. You still have an 8-track player? You *are* a technophobe, aren't you? > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a > word processor for a toy. That's the whole point, genius. A PC isn't just a toy like a console is. It's a TOOL as much as a toy. > > Does your console run database programs? > > Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. When was the last time you ran Access, SQL Server, or an Oracle database from your Xbox? > > Does your console run mail programs? > No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. > There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do > that. The PC is just a source of spam. Effective as it is, the USPS can't get a message to the other side of the globe inside of five minutes. And if you know how to take a few simple protective steps, you can stop most of the spam. > > Does your console run video editing programs? > Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the > heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than > kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. I can name two people (one friend and one relative) who do this, just off the top of my head. Just because *you* don't run this kind of software doesn't mean other people don't find it useful. > > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > > Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT > job. That's what consoles are. This much is true. If all you want is to play games, consoles are the way to go. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, if you want full access to the widest range of gaming experiences, PC gaming is where it's at. Some genres (like flight sims, for example) are pretty much nonexistent in the console world. > > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, andall > > the other stuff. > > If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. The only registered piece of software on my PC is XP itself. Everything else is legally-licensed gaming, productivity and utility software that I have no need to register. Patching is just a fact of life with PC's, but it really isn't that big a chore.

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> > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > > installing driver problems etc... > > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. > > I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing > with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes > up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS > ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games > inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a > PC to do that on a bet to save your life.

Sure I can. I do it all the time. Here's an idea. Instead of shooting the PC, why not just package it up and ship it to me? I'd be glad to take the horrible Satanic evil nasty beats-you-up-and-takes-your-lunch-money thing off your hands.

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> > PS: > > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? > > That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console > gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". > Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". > To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black > and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works > or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house.

Oof. I hope you don't have children. Their lives must be hell. And console games *can* puke. I've had my Xbox hang on me before. It's rare, but it's not impossible. > > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. > > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? > Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to > game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at > getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. Hardly. Like I said before, there are some genres that just don't exist for consoles. Especially in the sim world, PC's just plain can do things that consoles can't. Consoles are great for 90% of the game types that exist, but they aren't the be-all and end-all of electronic entertainment. Chris --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002

The toppic was to run "sims", not "games" !!! -- Lange, 666th Black Brigade http://www.666th.com ICQ: 15439346 "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:skkl9.102704$[email hidden]... > "There's no good reason to game on a PC." > Unless you want to run Racing Sims instead of arcade games that is. > > "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Lange_666th wrote: > > > Agree but then you also have to consider this... > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > > Does your console run music programs? > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > > Does your console run database programs? > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > > etc.... > > > > You have to consider this... > > Does anybody do that at home? > > > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > > > Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. > > > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > > > If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could > > honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > > > > > Does your console run music programs? > > > > Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. > > I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > > > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > > > I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a > > word processor for a toy. > > > > > Does your console run database programs? > > > > Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > > > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > > > No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. > > There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do > > that. The PC is just a source of spam. > > > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > > > Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the > > heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than > > kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > > > > > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > > > > Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT > > job. That's what consoles are. > > > > > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, and > all > > > the other stuff. > > > > If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > > seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > > rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > > > > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > > > installing driver problems etc... > > > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. > > > > I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing > > with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes > > up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS > > ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games > > inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a > > PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > > > > > PS: > > > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? > > > > That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console > > gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". > > Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". > > To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black > > and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works > > or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house. > > > > > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. > > > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? > > > > Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to > > game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at > > getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. > > > > > > -- > > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) > > > >

Thx Chris, Now i don't have to reply anymore. You've said it all. If you ever need some backup, just call me. LOL

On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:24:51 GMT, Goy Larsen wrote:

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> > > Dave Cook wrote: >> >> Yeah, it's called the XBox. Didn't Uwe say someone is running Unix on one >> already? > > There is some sort of competition going on about installing Linux on it, > can't remember the particulars though, was some restrictions as to how > much you could modify it >

hehe, get this: some group even got windows 2000 to run on the Xbox, inside a virtual machine running on *Linux* on the Xbox ;-) Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) has all the news on this one. Cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On 28 Sep 2002 16:02:08 GMT, EldredP wrote: > Yow. Sounds like you have deeper issues than we can solve HERE... > It's only a game, dude. crossposts from the console crowds. What did you expect? ;-) uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Yes and consoles have no sim titles. "Lange_666th" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fMll9.136284$[email hidden]...

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> The toppic was to run "sims", not "games" !!! > > > -- > Lange, > 666th Black Brigade > http://www.666th.com > ICQ: 15439346 > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:skkl9.102704$[email hidden]... > > "There's no good reason to game on a PC." > > Unless you want to run Racing Sims instead of arcade games that is. > > > > "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > Lange_666th wrote: > > > > Agree but then you also have to consider this... > > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > > > Does your console run music programs? > > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > > > Does your console run database programs? > > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > > > etc.... > > > > > > You have to consider this... > > > Does anybody do that at home? > > > > > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > > > > > Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office > programs. > > > > > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > > > > > If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I

could

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> > > honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > > > > > > > Does your console run music programs? > > > > > > Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. > > > I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > > > > > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > > > > > I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a > > > word processor for a toy. > > > > > > > Does your console run database programs? > > > > > > Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > > > > > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > > > > > No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. > > > There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do > > > that. The PC is just a source of spam. > > > > > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > > > > > Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the > > > heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than > > > kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > > > > > > > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > > > > > > Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT > > > job. That's what consoles are. > > > > > > > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, > and > > all > > > > the other stuff. > > > > > > If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > > > seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > > > rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > > > > > > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > > > > installing driver problems etc... > > > > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. > > > > > > I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing > > > with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it

comes > > > up with one more error message or another stupid question trying toPISS > > > ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games > > > inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't geta

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> > > PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > > > > > > > PS: > > > > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? > > > > > > That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console > > > gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". > > > Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". > > > To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black > > > and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works > > > or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house. > > > > > > > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my

console.

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> > > > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? > > > > > > Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to > > > game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at > > > getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > > > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) > > > > > > > > >

Agreed 110% Eldred. This guy has been building pressure for a few posts now. Ive been PC simming for the past 5 years, own probably 40 titles, was a beta tester for 2 of them and never once had any problems that i can remember. This stupid console/PC arguement has been hashed out 100's of times over the years and is truly a pointless activity. Each has their place in the world, and neither will go away anytime soon. Better off arguing which is better, Mickey D's or Burger King. At least you can try both for 99 cents each :) P.S. This bullshit rag no longer has a place in RAS, and has wobbled seriously off topic. Kill all who support this pathetic mewling :) !!!

"GMpartsguy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nrml9.437021$[email hidden]... > Agreed 110% Eldred. <Snip> Better off arguing which is > better, Mickey D's or Burger King. At least you can try both for 99 cents > each :) > P.S. This bullshit rag no longer has a place in RAS, and has wobbled > seriously off topic. Kill all who support this pathetic mewling :) !!! Burger King! Oops - don't shoot ;)

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wTkl9.45$[email hidden]... : When and IF the console games reach the quality of current PC games with all : of the required accessories, as in a KB, internet connection, wheels/pedals, : hotas's, etc etc then maybe I'll plunk down my $150. Till then there isn't : any comparison of the two platforms. : Only $150. Why not wait till they're $50 then? I guess I'll wait till PC are 25 cents before I upgrade... ;-)

I meant the console's average price. That seems to be the price point mfg's have been trying to hit since the Atari 2600. "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:iaol9.102745$[email hidden]...

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> > > Only $150. Why not wait till they're $50 then? > I guess I'll wait till PC are 25 cents before I upgrade... ;-) > > > >

I don't remember my VCS2600 being $50.00. I remember $115.00 CDN. -- ==================================================== "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XYol9.918$[email hidden]... : I meant the console's average price. That seems to be the price point mfg's : have been trying to hit since the Atari 2600. : : : : "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:iaol9.102745$[email hidden]... : > : > : > Only $150. Why not wait till they're $50 then? : > I guess I'll wait till PC are 25 cents before I upgrade... ;-) : > : > : > : > : :

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 06:58:55 -0700, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but instead came out sounding like this... :

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>That's total B.S. >I just bought a new monitor (plug and pray, hehehe) for my new PC. The >MONITOR (Viewsonic) came with an install disc. This is SEVEN YEARS after >Windows 95 promised Plug-and-Play, and EASY things like VGA monitors still >come with driver discs. Even worse, the "autorun" didn't even work. >Apparently Windows XP is such an upgrade that silly things like autobooting >discs are a thing of the past. I had to look at the autorun file to see >which program the damned install wanted to run, run it, and then I had to >know that Windows XP is basically a sequel to Windows 2000 which is basically >a sequel to Windows NT. Otherwise I wouldn't have known to grab the drivers >for NT. THAT SUCKS. Plus it had to restart the machine. That's PATHETIC.

Most monitors are pllug and pray, moron. However, if you have drivers for them ,then you can use your video card and the monitor to their best abilities. Without the drivers, you often can't set the refresh rate on monitors above 60 hz, for example.

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>If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth beans. >It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running a Hitachi >SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this >stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do >anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? I sure >don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so >bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to the road. >It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's under >the hood if the power ain't getting to the user.

Well, most of the bogging down in PCs comes from one place: Windows and its bloatware. Add in that multiple other programs like to set themselves up to auto run as soon as your PC starts, and you're losing resources (not even taking into account how horrible Windows is at managing resources to begin with). Try using a different OS and see if the same bog down issues happen. Granted, you won't find as much program support on the other OSes, but 9 out of 10 times you will find that the programs run smoother, and the entire PC runs smoother all the time without God damn Explorer crashing every 5 seconds. It really doesn't matter how fast the PC is when it has Windows running on it. Hell, as son as I get my Linux box up and running, I won't ever need to use this Windows one ever again, unless a game I want to play doesn't have Linux drivers. ------ Sam Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil. -Saying on a friend's T-shirt, author unknown to me.

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 08:55:10 -0700, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but instead came out sounding like this... : >You have to consider this... >Does anybody do that at home? Yes, many people do do all these things at home. > > > Does your console run Office programs? > >Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. Silly me, I suppose that's why millions of people also use them at home for things like finishing up work (my mother makes spreadsheets for scheduling shifts at her job on her PC, for example), or even *gasp* just to write stuff for fun! While most Office programs don't have a real need at the normal home, Word or another word processor is something that every computer should have. Hell, half the kids in college couldn't survive without a word processing application on their PCs/laptops. I truly doubt the libraries would let them stay in them all night to write term papers and such, especially with thousands of other students waiting to use those same PCs.. And yes, simple word processing programs are part of office suites. > > Does your console run drawing programs? > >If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could >honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. Consoles have had their drawing programs as well. Mario Paint is an example of one. It's older, but it was on the SNES and used *gasp* a mouse! > > Does your console run music programs? > >Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. >I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. But music programs can make lives easier. Setting up personalized playlists without the hassle of having to remove and insert the data medium the music is stored on is something I use extensively while I am on my PC. Add in the editing programs you can get, and practically anyone can start mixing their own music. And for a hell of a lot less than going and buying DAT players, tapes, and mixing boards and such. > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > >I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a >word processor for a toy. Didn't the Saturn have a word processing program for it? I know you could also set up the DC to run Word as well. And both consoles had keyboard peripherals, as well as mice. > > Does your console run database programs? > >Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. No, that's not how they manage game saves. They use flash RAM (for memory cards) or a hard drive (in the Xbox's case). Database programs are what you use when you are setting up servers, and they are what you access each time you go to a web page. Programs like SQL, ISS, etc. Moron. > > Does your console run mail programs? > >No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. >There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do >that. The PC is just a source of spam. Both the Sega Saturn and the Sega Dreamcast could and did run email programs, as well as web applications. Try not to let it destroy you that consoles are able to handle these simple things as well, Eugene. > > Does your console run video editing programs? > >Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the >heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than >kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. Maybe for making home movies to send to grandma and grampa? Perhaps for just fun? There's loads of cheap editing tools out there. Next you'll say that home video cameras are also something that no one uses. >> Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > >Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT >job. That's what consoles are. They're the right tools for their specific purposes. You can't have an Xbox, however, and expect to run PS2 or GC software on it. As closed source as Windows may be, consoles are even more closed source. At least on the PC they can make the same game run no matter what sort of hardware you have under the hood, and in many cases now the OS is mattering less and less as well. >If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the >seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that >rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. No one said PCs always had to be fun, Eugene. Gaming PCs should be fun. Dedicated servers shouldn't be fun, they should be reliable and able to run mission critical applications at all times. Hardly any fun involved in running mission critical applications, however. >I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing >with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes >up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS >ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games >inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a >PC to do that on a bet to save your life. I can get games up and running on my PC in under 5 minutes of opening the game's CD. Maybe if you got some better hardware, or maybe a little actual knowledge of how you should install things, you wouldn't have these problems. >Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to >game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at >getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. Sure there is. You're just too closed minded to accept it. I can't imagine how horrible playing certain games that are on the PC online are going to play on Xbox Live, for example (Counter-Strike, Unreal Championship, Star Wars Galaxies, etc.). For some games, there is simply no better platform than the PC. For others, there is no better platform than a console. For FPS, sims, and RTS as well as MMOGs, the PC is the best choice. For platformers, sports games (normal and extreme), and RPGs, the consoles are the way to go. (Note: I say RPGs on consoles because I don't like the way most PC RPG games play--and I don't mention racing because I can't stand those types of games, but each person's MMV of course.) ------ Sam Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil. -Saying on a friend's T-shirt, author unknown to me.

Uwe Schuerkamp wrote:

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> > On 28 Sep 2002 16:02:08 GMT, EldredP wrote: > > > Yow. Sounds like you have deeper issues than we can solve HERE... > > It's only a game, dude. > > crossposts from the console crowds. What did you expect? ;-)

An IQ of 35 or more would be a start, geez Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Uwe Schuerkamp wrote: > > hehe, get this: some group even got windows 2000 to run on the > Xbox, inside a virtual machine running on *Linux* on the Xbox ;-) > Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) has all the news on this one. Very cool, is that on an unmodified Xbox, I can't see it mentioned anywhere ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

As i understood it, XBox runs a Win2K or XP kernel as a basic OS, doesnt it? Kick me if im wrong :)

Charles, your responses here are simply silly. No other way to put it. "Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs". I'll estimate a MINIMUM of 90% of all PC owners have some variation of MS Office/MS Works at HOME. You're disagreeing for the SAKE of disagreeing. Not doing much for your credibility here. You also sound like Charlie Brown instead of Charlie Doane. Lucy keeps pulling the ball away at the last second; nothing works for poor Chuck. ;0) I can count on one hand the number of technical glitches I've had with games over the last few years. The last year with WinXP has been the best PC gaming year ever for me. Yes, PC's CAN be a royal pain in the ass. I still think much of it boils down to user error. What else explains my experience, good fortune? And the same for my friend who has NO problems? The only guy I know with PC gaming heartaches is a self-proclaimed expert who doesn't know his ass from a hard drive. User error is the biggest cause of troubles and sound fundamentals with a LITTLE luck is the best path to low stress PC gaming. I guess for every great experience like mine, there has to be an experience like yours to even things out. ;0) -- Joe M. "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Lange_666th wrote: > > Agree but then you also have to consider this... > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > Does your console run music programs? > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > Does your console run database programs? > > Does your console run mail programs? > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > etc.... > > You have to consider this... > Does anybody do that at home? > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could > honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > > > Does your console run music programs? > > Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. > I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a > word processor for a toy. > > > Does your console run database programs? > > Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. > There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do > that. The PC is just a source of spam. > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the > heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than > kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > > > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > > Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT > job. That's what consoles are. > > > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, and all > > the other stuff. > > If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > > installing driver problems etc... > > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. > > I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing > with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes > up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS > ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games > inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a > PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > > > PS: > > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? > > That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console > gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". > Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". > To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black > and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works > or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house. > > > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. > > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? > > Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to > game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at > getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. > > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

Sam Altersitz wrote:

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> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 06:58:55 -0700, Charles Doane > <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but instead came out > sounding like this... : > > >>That's total B.S. >>I just bought a new monitor (plug and pray, hehehe) for my new PC. The >>MONITOR (Viewsonic) came with an install disc. This is SEVEN YEARS after >>Windows 95 promised Plug-and-Play, and EASY things like VGA monitors still >>come with driver discs. Even worse, the "autorun" didn't even work. >>Apparently Windows XP is such an upgrade that silly things like autobooting >>discs are a thing of the past. I had to look at the autorun file to see >>which program the damned install wanted to run, run it, and then I had to >>know that Windows XP is basically a sequel to Windows 2000 which is basically >>a sequel to Windows NT. Otherwise I wouldn't have known to grab the drivers >>for NT. THAT SUCKS. Plus it had to restart the machine. That's PATHETIC. > > > Most monitors are pllug and pray, moron. However, if you have drivers > for them ,then you can use your video card and the monitor to their > best abilities. Without the drivers, you often can't set the refresh > rate on monitors above 60 hz, for example.

What monitor made in the last decade can't pull off better than 60 Hz? I think default has been 75 Hz since back in the Windows 3.1 days. If the PC would PICK A VIDEO CHIPSET and stay with it the PC would be a lot more viable of an option for gaming, but as it is, it's horrible. The power PC gamer goes and buys himself a $300 video card, the latest and greatest, and then what? He finds that there's not but two or three games on the planet that support the thing. So he's screwed. The budget PC gamer goes and buys himself a $50 video card, one which will run most of the games, and then he sees something like Doom III coming down the pike and his video card won't support that. So he's screwed too. No matter which route a PC gamer takes, he's gonna get shafted.

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>>If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth beans. >>It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running a Hitachi >>SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this >>stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do >>anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? I sure >>don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so >>bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to the road. >>It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's under >>the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. > > > Well, most of the bogging down in PCs comes from one place: Windows > and its bloatware. Add in that multiple other programs like to set > themselves up to auto run as soon as your PC starts, and you're losing > resources (not even taking into account how horrible Windows is at > managing resources to begin with).

I've always believed that to be the main reason there's never been a good fighter on a PC. All of the software drivers cause far too much latency to ever hope to play any game with 100 millisecond or less timing windows. > Try using a different OS and see if the same bog down issues happen. > Granted, you won't find as much program support on the other OSes, but > 9 out of 10 times you will find that the programs run smoother, and > the entire PC runs smoother all the time without G%^ damn Explorer > crashing every 5 seconds. I wouldn't mind doing that except for the fact that practically all documents I work with tend to be in a Microsoft format (ie. DOC or MDB) and I need to view those. > It really doesn't matter how fast the PC is when it has Windows > running on it. Hell, as son as I get my Linux box up and running, I > won't ever need to use this Windows one ever again, unless a game I > want to play doesn't have Linux drivers. Which probably means that all of your old games are junk and you won't be able to play them. Which is par for the course on a PC. I don't know why people even bother claiming that PC's are backwards compatible. They really aren't, and the more specialized the app the less likely it will be supported in the future. Games are pretty specialized apps when it comes right down to it, so they're among the least likely to work in the future. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

"Bob Perez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Who says there's not supposed to be any installation? What mythology is > this? The irony is, of course, the XBox cache's data to the hard disk, in some cases large amounts. The difference between this and "installation" is purely semantics.

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wTkl9.45$[email hidden]... > When and IF the console games reach the quality of current PC games withall > of the required accessories, as in a KB, internet connection,wheels/pedals, > hotas's, etc etc then maybe I'll plunk down my $150. Till then thereisn't > any comparison of the two platforms. > Consoles already have keyboards, but I can say from experience they are not that useful like on a PC. You can get racing wheels for a console, too. I'm not a big racing fan, but I have Gran Turismo 3 for my PS2 that I bought on sale and I like playing it. I just use a gamepad. The graphics are great, but they are a lot more jaggy than what I'd get on a PC and sometimes my eyes get tired of looking at the murky image. No HOTAS on a console, yet. I can't see a sim with that steep of a learning curve ever selling to a mass market audience. Playstation had a port of Gunship 2000 that was great, though, and the gamepad had alot of shift functions built in. > When you can play Nascar 2002 on your Sega Saturn in under a minute then > come talk to us :-) > You can run it on PS2, and I assume there's an XBox version (I rented it, wasn't real thrilled with PS2 version, too much jaggies). The PC version is pretty much the same game, BTW.

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> > > > > > > > "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > I'm not technologically illiterate. Far from it, I'm a

telecommunications > > field technician and I'm used to fighting with broken machines all the > time > > (and winning), but I get PAID to do that because it's work. I don'twant > to > > do that when I'm trying to PLAY. > > > > If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worthbeans. > > It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running aHitachi

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> > SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this > > stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do > > anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? I > sure > > don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so > > bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to the > road. > > It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's

under

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> > the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. > > > > -- > > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) > > > >

Sam Altersitz wrote:

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> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 08:55:10 -0700, Charles Doane > <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but instead came out > sounding like this... : > > >>You have to consider this... >>Does anybody do that at home? > Yes, many people do do all these things at home.

I seriously doubt that. Nobody is buying $300 video cards for word processing and spread sheets.

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>>>Does your console run Office programs? >> >>Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. > > > Silly me, I suppose that's why millions of people also use them at > home for things like finishing up work (my mother makes spreadsheets > for scheduling shifts at her job on her PC, for example), or even > *gasp* just to write stuff for fun!

Most people actually finish up work AT work. That's what the place is for. I'm sure employers just LOVE having employees finish up the job off the clock using their own resources, but it's a very bad idea and it opens a window of potential liability. For example, if the employer *did* pay her for her time making those spreadsheets, then those belong to the employer, and they're on HER computer. What happens if they part ways (she quits, gets fired, laid off, etc.) and the employer wants his property back (or destroyed)? Think that could get ugly? There's an old saying about mixing business and pleasure. I don't.

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> While most Office programs don't have a real need at the normal home, > Word or another word processor is something that every computer should > have. Hell, half the kids in college couldn't survive without a word > processing application on their PCs/laptops. I truly doubt the > libraries would let them stay in them all night to write term papers > and such, especially with thousands of other students waiting to use > those same PCs.. > > And yes, simple word processing programs are part of office suites.

If the kids couldn't survive in college without a word processor then they shouldn't BE in college until they can. That's the reason there are so many nearly illiterate people coming out of colleges with a diploma that should rightfully be awarded to their laptop PC. It's like handing a calculator to a kid before they learn to do math on paper or in their head. It turns them into useless slugs unless a machine is around to help them.

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>>>Does your console run drawing programs? >> >>If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could >>honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > Consoles have had their drawing programs as well. Mario Paint is an > example of one. It's older, but it was on the SNES and used *gasp* a > mouse!

Yeah, I remember that one. It was the Nintendo Bargain Bin speed king until Hey You Pikachu dethroned it for the title of quickest clearance Nintendo title ever made. Nobody liked it.

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>>>Does your console run music programs? >> >>Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. >>I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > > > But music programs can make lives easier. Setting up personalized > playlists without the hassle of having to remove and insert the data > medium the music is stored on is something I use extensively while I > am on my PC.

Oh. My. GAWD. You would probably just fall over dead if you were actually faced with a record player then. How lazy can you be? And wasn't it you just one post ago saying that you wanted to run Linux because opening a bunch of apps bogs down the machine? I never set up personalized playlists. I like music arranged by people who know what they're doing. I'm not a music arranger. A CD is not so much work that it's going to break my arm changing one every 40 minutes or so. I don't even need to do that. I've got a 6-CD cartridge changer, so that's good for 4 hours and then I just plug in another cartridge for another 4 hours. I've got three of them so I could run 12 solid hours of music changing cartridges a total of twice. And that's without bogging down any PC.

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> Add in the editing programs you can get, and practically anyone can > start mixing their own music. And for a hell of a lot less than going > and buying DAT players, tapes, and mixing boards and such. > > >>>Does your console run wordprocessers? >> >>I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a >>word processor for a toy. > > > Didn't the Saturn have a word processing program for it? I know you > could also set up the DC to run Word as well. And both consoles had > keyboard peripherals, as well as mice.

That does nothing to change the fact that I don't want a word processor as a toy. If the Saturn DID have a word processor, I sure wouldn't buy it, and as for the DC, running Word on a box that has no printer port is pretty much an exercise in futility.

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>>>Does your console run database programs? >> >>Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > > > No, that's not how they manage game saves. They use flash RAM (for > memory cards) or a hard drive (in the Xbox's case). Database programs > are what you use when you are setting up servers, and they are what > you access each time you go to a web page. Programs like SQL, ISS, > etc. Moron.

Dummy, the flash RAM does NOTHING to manage itself and neither does a hard drive. They use FILE ALLOCATION TABLES. Read the word TABLES again. TABLES TABLES TABLES. Get it? Got it? Now WHAT ELSE uses tables? HELLO DATABASE PROGRAM!!! Before you go calling someone else a moron, you'd best have your ducks in a row or you're gonna look the part of the fool yourself.

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>>>Does your console run mail programs? >> >>No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. >>There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do >>that. The PC is just a source of spam. > > > Both the Sega Saturn and the Sega Dreamcast could and did run email > programs, as well as web applications. Try not to let it destroy you > that consoles are able to handle these simple things as well, Eugene.

So what? Do you realize that the two consoles you named CRASHED AND BURNED? Both of them died early deaths. Looks like their 'net ability did about jack-point-squat to help their sales. Nobody WANTS a console to do those things. The Xbox won't. It's going closed network, so you can forget E-mail on that. The GC probably won't get any browser or e-mail app ever. The only one left is PS2, and that thing doesn't have any HDD yet to even be remotely useful for that. Besides, a PS2 ($199) plus the HDD ($130) and the Network adapter ($40) brings you up to a total of $369. You could buy a PC that would kick it's butt for doing e-mail and web for about that much.

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>>>Does your console run video editing programs? >> >>Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the >>heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than >>kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > > > Maybe for making home movies to send to grandma and grampa? Perhaps > for just fun? There's loads of cheap editing tools out there. Next > you'll say that home video cameras are also something that no one > uses.

Yeah, like there are a whole lot of old geezers with PC's capable of watching home movies on. That's why home video cameras tend to use videotape. Gramps might actually HAVE a VCR. Maybe. Besides, home movies aren't supposed to look like Spielberg made it.

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>>>Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. >> >>Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT >>job. That's what consoles are. > > > They're the right tools for their specific purposes. You can't have > an Xbox, however, and expect to run PS2 or GC software on it. As > closed source as Windows may be, consoles are even more closed source.

That's one of the best things about consoles. With them being so closed, the software is made by invitation only. That's why there's such a better signal to noise ratio on console games as opposed to PC ones. > At least on the PC they can make the same game run no matter what sort > of hardware you have under the hood, and in many cases now the OS is > mattering less and less as well. No, on the PC *you* can make the same game run. They expect the end user to do a lot of work. Tons of work tracking down patches, doing the installation, answering configuration questions and making sure that the drivers are all up to date. >>If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the >>seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that >>rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > > No one said PCs always had to be fun, Eugene. Way to miss the point. PC's are NEVER fun. They're frustration personified, they drive users into mad rages, they cause mental anguish and distress, and they're the reason that IT professionals have the most illegal drug abuse of any profession. > Gaming PCs should be fun. No, they should be shot.

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> Dedicated servers shouldn't be fun, they should be reliable and > able to run mission critical applications at all times. Hardly any > fun involved in running mission critical applications, however. > > >>I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing >>with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes >>up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS >>ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games >>inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a >>PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > > > I can get games up and running on my PC in under 5 minutes of opening > the game's CD. Maybe if you got some better hardware, or maybe a > little actual knowledge of how you should install things, you wouldn't > have these problems.

5 minutes is at least 4 minutes too long, and my hardware likely kicks your hardware's patootie. Can you beat an AthlonXP2000+? I know how to do it. What I hate is having to.

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>>Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to >>game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at >>getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. > > > Sure there is. You're just too closed minded to accept it. I can't > imagine how horrible playing certain games that are on the PC online > are going to play on Xbox Live, for example (Counter-Strike, Unreal > Championship, Star Wars Galaxies, etc.).

I like online gaming on consoles because that's the best way to get AWAY from the horrid, rude, foulmouthed jerks that make up the vast majority of the PC crowd. I tried Quake on a friend's PC for about 5 minutes and I'd already had insults about my mother at least a dozen times, saw at least 50 profanities, and received a threat to "haxor" my (actually my friend's) machine. So I said screw it. You will never, ever, see me join any online game with PC gamers around and no language filters. Online games can only be as good as the quality of the online gamers, and in the case of the PC, that's very low quality indeed. > For some games, there is simply no better platform than the PC. For > others, there is no better platform than a console. For FPS, sims, > and RTS as well as MMOGs, the PC is the best choice. You just named four genres I don't like. > For platformers, > sports games (normal and extreme), and RPGs, the consoles are the way > to go. (Note: I say RPGs on consoles because I don't like the way > most PC RPG games play--and I don't mention racing because I can't > stand those types of games, but each person's MMV of course.) -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Joe M. wrote: > Charles, your responses here are simply silly. No other way to put it. > "Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs". > I'll estimate a MINIMUM of 90% of all PC owners have some variation of MS > Office/MS Works at HOME. You're disagreeing for the SAKE of disagreeing. > Not doing much for your credibility here. I'll estimate a MINIMUM of 100% of all PC owners have some apps that they never use. This isn't about what people have, it's what they USE that matters. Is a dedicated gaming PC going to have a printer attached? Is it going to have a scanner attached? Of course not; those things are for general purpose machines, not specialty ones. > You also sound like Charlie Brown instead of Charlie Doane. Lucy keeps > pulling the ball away at the last second; nothing works for poor Chuck. ;0) I could always get it to work. I just shouldn't HAVE to. That's what I find to be completely unreasonable. That's the unacceptable aspect of gaming on the PC. It's supposed to be the entertainer, and I'm supposed to be the entertainee. There's not much entertaining going on while watching some stupid "% Installation Complete" bar slowly creep by, and then (I *swear* the bastards do this on purpose) when it FINALLY gets to 99% complete, it stays there for about five minutes MOCKING you. > I can count on one hand the number of technical glitches I've had with games > over the last few years. The last year with WinXP has been the best PC > gaming year ever for me. Yes, PC's CAN be a royal pain in the ass. I still > think much of it boils down to user error. What else explains my > experience, good fortune? And the same for my friend who has NO problems? Oh puhleaze. Is that the Windows XP I just spent 15 Minutes downloading a 24 MEGABYTE Service Pack 1 for today? It was THAT screwed up! UNBELIEVABLE. How big was Windows 3.1? It couldn't have been MUCH more than 24 MB. I know I had it running on a '286 with a 40MB HDD. So, there were as many PATCHES as the entire SIZE of Win3.1! How screwed up is that? Good thing I didn't try that on a 56K dialup. Even so, it took about half an hour just to fix WinXP on this box and get the updater to stop bitching at me every time it boots up. I don't know about your 'good fortune'. Try this: Install the LucasArts game "Full Throttle" and get it to run on your XP machine. I tried it yesterday, and ALMOST have it working. I had to LIE to the thing and tell it I had a Soundblaster 16 to get any sound out of it, and the sound is pretty crappy but at least playable. I don't think you could do any better. Legacy support on sound cards has always been pretty pathetic. I keep hoping that "Full Throttle" comes to a console because I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I've already played the whole game, but it'd be nice to see what something like the XBox could do with it and not have to fight to get the program even running with sound and a framerate over 20. It's pitiful that the best machine I ever had running it was a Pentium90. Of course, that wasn't legacy support. That was the kind of machine it was made for back in 1994.

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> The only guy I know with PC gaming heartaches is a self-proclaimed expert > who doesn't know his ass from a hard drive. User error is the biggest cause > of troubles and sound fundamentals with a LITTLE luck is the best path to > low stress PC gaming. > > I guess for every great experience like mine, there has to be an experience > like yours to even things out. ;0)

Yeah, well I'm not like your friend. I don't make user errors, and I do know one of the things WinXP SP1 does. Windows Media Player had a bug which affects AthlonXP chips because it looks for "GenuineIntel" in the CPU to enable support for the SSE (3D NOW in Athlon-speak) command set. So, unless you download that service pack you take a 20% performance hit you don't need to take due to WMP not running SSE on a chip that does it. I mess with PC's all the time at work. I don't like doing it, but I'm getting paid so as long as the checks clear, I can't complain about that. What I CAN complain about is when I happen to be the one doing the paying. I will not fight a stupid machine to try and get entertainment out of the dumb box. Not with every currently viable console in the USA sitting in my living room waiting to do the job hassle-free. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

On Sun, 29 Sep 2002 01:14:44 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >Uwe Schuerkamp wrote: >> >> hehe, get this: some group even got windows 2000 to run on the >> Xbox, inside a virtual machine running on *Linux* on the Xbox ;-) >> Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) has all the news on this one. > >Very cool, is that on an unmodified Xbox, I can't see it mentioned >anywhere ?

The SuSE installation I read about a couple of weeks ago involved taking out the HD, live-swapping it in an existing Intel machine, then installing SuSE, tweak some bits, and hanging the HD back in the X-Box. I believe no HW mods were necessary. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Gaal wrote: > > The SuSE installation I read about a couple of weeks ago involved > taking out the HD, live-swapping it in an existing Intel machine, then > installing SuSE, tweak some bits, and hanging the HD back in the > X-Box. Hot swapping IDE harddrives........I've done that in the past but I wouldn't' recommend it for everyone :-) > I believe no HW mods were necessary. Amazing, so when I keep telling myself I ought to get myself a Linux Box, I can do that now, literally :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

snip Chuck, you are either a GREAT troll, or just one seriously dumb MF. Please let us know what Tel-com you work for, if you're their tech, thats one company I dont want to rely on. Or, I might just be able to explain all the bitterness. You're wife cheated on you in an online chatroom on the computer while you were downstairs playing on your kiddie game, didn't she?? Chuck -- Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Benjamin Franklin

On Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:22:57 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ruud van Gaal wrote: >> >> The SuSE installation I read about a couple of weeks ago involved >> taking out the HD, live-swapping it in an existing Intel machine, then >> installing SuSE, tweak some bits, and hanging the HD back in the >> X-Box. > >Hot swapping IDE harddrives........I've done that in the past but I >wouldn't' recommend it for everyone :-)

Indeed, a severe case of 'kids don't do this at home' (ehm, that means they DO do it at home, I forgot the comma). :) >> I believe no HW mods were necessary. > >Amazing, so when I keep telling myself I ought to get myself a Linux >Box, I can do that now, literally :-) Yep, as Bill was sitting behind his desk, the spirit of Linus entered him, and he called his tech department by cell phone and said 'I want a *crackle* Linu *crackle* x-box'. Unfortunately these cell phones don't have the best reception like in the old analog days, so it turned out to be just 'x-box'. ;-) That's what you get when you want to sell cheap PC's as consoles. :) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Makes me wonder about the PC gamers, myself. Have they no concept of the >value of game time? The reason that PC games are cheaper (in some cases, >not in all as PSX games are often in the $10 range now) is that PC games >are largely a do-it-yourself proposition. The $20 you save isn't any >bargain if it takes an hour to get the game working. The PC gamer does a >whole lot of the work himself; work which console games take care of. > >The last game I bought for XBox was Sega GT 2002, along with the Mad Catz >MC2 wheel setup (nice wheel, btw). From the time I got home with the >goods to the time I was playing the game with the wheel working perfectly >was just about 10 minutes flat. You can't do that sort of thing on a >PC at all. If you put a wheel on a PC then you get to install the drivers, >play 20 questions with "Install Shield", and then you get to do the same >thing with the new game. Moreover, there's no guarantee that the game will >even work with that peripheral after you've spent the better part of an >hour jumping through hoops. > >I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was Duke Nukem3D, >and after fighting with that game for days trying to tweak every setting >just right, something snapped. I bit my lip, tasted blood and promptly >smashed my keyboard (I hated that keyboard anyway). I will not ever fight >to make my entertainment work again. I want entertainment that works for >ME, not the other way around.

Is there some special MSWindows version of DN3D? The IBM version worked without a problem. (too slow for my computer, though)

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>Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. > >Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! >Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! >Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. >Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and >they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. > >It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing >home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your >$20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy.

Well that's what you get for using MSWindows! I never had any of these weird problems on my IBM PC clone. Not all PC users are using MSWin! Some are Linux or FreeBSD users. (Linux, myself) I just use MS-DOS for games. I mostly use Linux for the Internet and some Unix text games. And Apple and Sony make PCs too. (you know that Sony sells Linux for their PlayStation 2, right?) The bad thing about game systems is that you can't use add-on levels. This makes game like Doom and Quake and Unreal Tournament kind of crappy. And at least the PSX2 lets you use USB devices and run Linux/Unix software. I still don't know how Unreal Tournament is going to be played on the X-Box.

Ruud van Gaal wrote:

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> > Yep, as Bill was sitting behind his desk, the spirit of Linus entered > him, and he called his tech department by cell phone and said 'I want > a *crackle* Linu *crackle* x-box'. Unfortunately these cell phones > don't have the best reception like in the old analog days, so it > turned out to be just 'x-box'. > ;-) > > That's what you get when you want to sell cheap PC's as consoles. :)

LOLOL Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Sam Altersitz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 06:58:55 -0700, Charles Doane > <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but instead came out > sounding like this... : > > >That's total B.S. > >I just bought a new monitor (plug and pray, hehehe) for my new PC. The > >MONITOR (Viewsonic) came with an install disc. This is SEVEN YEARS after > >Windows 95 promised Plug-and-Play, and EASY things like VGA monitors

still > >come with driver discs. Even worse, the "autorun" didn't even work. > >Apparently Windows XP is such an upgrade that silly things likeautobooting > >discs are a thing of the past. I had to look at the autorun file to see > >which program the damned install wanted to run, run it, and then I had to > >know that Windows XP is basically a sequel to Windows 2000 which isbasically > >a sequel to Windows NT. Otherwise I wouldn't have known to grab thedrivers > >for NT. THAT SUCKS. Plus it had to restart the machine. That'sPATHETIC. > > Most monitors are pllug and pray, moron. However, if you have drivers > for them ,then you can use your video card and the monitor to their > best abilities. Without the drivers, you often can't set the refresh > rate on monitors above 60 hz, for example. yup, I have to say you are correct. > > >If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth beans. > >It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running aHitachi > >SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this > >stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do > >anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? Isure > >don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so > >bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to theroad. > >It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what'sunder > >the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. > > Well, most of the bogging down in PCs comes from one place: Windows > and its bloatware. No, sorry, Windows can hardly be callsed bloatware on an Athlon XP2000+ PC unless you're willing to call just about every other *nix or Linux OS runing the X Windowing system/X Windows (w/ KDE, GNOME, etc) bloatware too. Even more amusing is that the arguably most popular of the bunch, KDE, is nothing more than a copy of the old Windows GUI. If you don't believe me, please, be my guess and try it out for yourself. Try running Windows on the same hardware you run Linux or *nix with X Windows, you'll find the PC will perform/run just about the same under both enviornments. If you really want to see your Linux system choke, try using Star Office, then we can talk about bloatware. >Add in that multiple other programs like to set > themselves up to auto run as soon as your PC starts, and you're losing > resources ...you do know you can turn these off, right? >(not even taking into account how horrible Windows is at > managing resources to begin with). Are you insane? Only the now essentially discontinued Win 9x OSs were horrible at managing resources and thats when compared to the likes of NT/2000/XP/.Net. Windows NT4,2000,XP, and .Net all manage system resources remarkably well. > > Try using a different OS and see if the same bog down issues happen. It will. > Granted, you won't find as much program support on the other OSes, but > 9 out of 10 times you will find that the programs run smoother, lol, not really, personally, I find Netscape crashes the most on systems running Linux. >and > the entire PC runs smoother all the time without God damn Explorer > crashing every 5 seconds. ...that is unfortunate you're running into these problems as Explorer rarely crashes on Windows systems w/ an NT kernel. Hell, if we're going to be intellecutally honest here, Explorer rarely crashes on a well maintained Win 9x system, its just that the likely hood of it crashing under win nt/2k/xp/.net is much much smaller. Although better Explorer crashes in Win than X crashing in *nix/linux which unfortunately, frequently does happen. > > It really doesn't matter how fast the PC is when it has Windows > running on it. This really doesn't make sense. You could just as easily say it doesn't matter how fast the PC is when any other non Win OS is running on it. >Hell, as son as I get my Linux box up and running, I > won't ever need to use this Windows one ever again, Honestly I always giggle when I hear people say this, in no time at all they're back to using Windows. Who knows, maybe you'll be the overwhelming odds and it will be true in your case. Good luck >unless a game I > want to play doesn't have Linux drivers. By in large you'll be limited to Open GL games, and its too bad for you that Direct X's popularity is on the rise and arguably more popular than Open GL is now a days.

Really? I haven't seen any cache to a great degree, I wish they would. At least I haven't noticed any cached data left behind after the game was removed. I haven't noticed any impact the number of blocks free either. Like for ripping CDs into it. -- ==================================================== "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_vyl9.5679$[email hidden]... : : "Bob Perez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:[email hidden]... : : > Who says there's not supposed to be any installation? What mythology is : > this? : : The irony is, of course, the XBox cache's data to the hard disk, in some : cases large amounts. The difference between this and "installation" is : purely semantics. : : :

Chuck C. wrote: > snip > > Chuck, you are either a GREAT troll, or just one seriously dumb MF. Please > let us know what Tel-com you work for, if you're their tech, thats one > company I dont want to rely on. Don't worry about it, you couldn't afford my services anyway as they're $150 per hour with a 4-hour minimum. If you even call me you're out $600. Of course, a lot of that is to pay for the test equipment I use. The SONET BERT set alone costs over $45,000. > Or, I might just be able to explain all the bitterness. You're wife > cheated on you in an online chatroom on the computer while you were > downstairs playing on your kiddie game, didn't she?? Actually, no, my ex was so computer illiterate that she called the exterminator to try and get rid of the mouse. Tell her to click on a screen icon and she'd look for Harrison Ford. She couldn't type, either. She thought Caps Lock was in the medicine cabinet for child safety, and she thought Tab was the diet soda in the refrigerator. Once she asked me for a calculator and I handed her my HP Scientific with RPN just to watch the antics of her trying to figure that one out. After that she never wanted to see anything with an "enter" key again. Probably the stupidest thing that ever happened to my technophobic ex was the time the power went out and I was gone for a week. She couldn't set the clock on the microwave, and it won't work unless the clock is set so she kept on running over to the 7-11 to use theirs. Believe me, there are some super technological illiterati in this world and my ex was one of the worst. She wouldn't get on a chat room and if she wanted to she couldn't ever figure out how to do it. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

The Doctor wrote:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > Charles Doane <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was Duke Nukem3D, >>and after fighting with that game for days trying to tweak every setting >>just right, something snapped. I bit my lip, tasted blood and promptly >>smashed my keyboard (I hated that keyboard anyway). I will not ever fight >>to make my entertainment work again. I want entertainment that works for >>ME, not the other way around. > > > Is there some special MSWindows version of DN3D? > The IBM version worked without a problem. > (too slow for my computer, though)

DN3D used some DOS4GW, proprietary to itself. It has it's own OS, mainly because at the time MS-DOS still suffered from the 640K RAM limitation. You could have 4 MB of RAM but so far as MS-DOS was concerned, you had 640K. Which makes backwards compatability moot because if there aren't any updates for modern equipment (it has no idea what PCI or AGP is) then there's no chance of it running. Guess what my solution to the DN3D problem was? I bought the SATURN version. No muss, no fuss, and I like the control scheme on the good old NiGHTs pad better anyway.

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>>Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. >> >>Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! >>Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! >>Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. >>Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and >>they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. >> >>It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing >>home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your >>$20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy. > > > Well that's what you get for using MSWindows!

You mean the OS that's required for most commercial PC games this side of 1996?

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> I never had any of these weird problems on my IBM PC clone. > Not all PC users are using MSWin! Some are Linux or FreeBSD users. > (Linux, myself) > I just use MS-DOS for games. > I mostly use Linux for the Internet and some Unix text games. > And Apple and Sony make PCs too. > (you know that Sony sells Linux for their PlayStation 2, right?)

Not to me they're not selling any Linux. So, basically, you're stuck with suck-patootie games that are either six years old or text-based. Yip-yip-yahoo. No thanks, I'll just play my consoles. > The bad thing about game systems is that you can't use add-on levels. Says who? Even the DC does that with PSO. I've downloaded and played more than a few quests, as well as new ones online. > This makes game like Doom and Quake and Unreal Tournament kind of crappy. Since I don't particularly like those games (even though I have them all for consoles) I don't play them much anyway. Apparently, looking through my game shelves, I was so COMPLETELY underwhelmed by the prospect of playing UT that it's still sitting on the shelf in the wrapper waiting for me to get around to playing it. Which I probably never will, as I consider FPS games to be about as much fun as your average sunburn. It's just there to complete the collection of online DC games, that's all. > And at least the PSX2 lets you use USB devices and run Linux/Unix software. Only if the app supports it, and more than a few don't. Try running Namco's Ridge Racer V with the Logitech GT Force USB Wheel and see what happens. I'll tell you what happens. NOTHING! IT WON'T WORK! If you want Force Feedback w/ RRV then you need the hard-to-find JogCon (I have one, but that's beside the point). > I still don't know how Unreal Tournament is going to be played on the X-Box. Probably the same way it was on Dreamcast. Not that I care, as the game looks pretty stupid to me. The cover has some stupid-looking robot wearing a punk dreadlock hairdo holding the most ridiculous-looking chainsaw I've ever seen. Screw that idiocy. I'd rather play Beach Spikers online. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

In article <[email hidden]>, "Chuck C." <[email hidden]> writes: >snip > >Chuck, you are either a GREAT troll, or just one seriously dumb MF. Please >let us know what Tel-com you work for, if you're their tech, thats one >company I dont want to rely on. I'm thinking troll. NOBODY could possibly be THAT dumb... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> writes:

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> > At least on the PC they can make the same game run no matter what sort > > of hardware you have under the hood, and in many cases now the OS is > > mattering less and less as well. > >No, on the PC *you* can make the same game run. They expect the end >user to do a lot of work. Tons of work tracking down patches, doing >the installation, answering configuration questions and making sure >that the drivers are all up to date. >

Hmm, sounds like YOU'RE the lazy one. You *could* do it, but you don't want to...

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> >>If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > >>seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > >>rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > > > > > No one said PCs always had to be fun, Eugene. > >Way to miss the point. PC's are NEVER fun. They're frustration >personified, they drive users into mad rages, they cause mental >anguish and distress, and they're the reason that IT professionals >have the most illegal drug abuse of any profession.

PC's are NEVER fun?!? So what about the hundreds of people in this group who enjoy their PC's all the time? I have fun playing games on my PC, so your statement is blatantly false. > > > Gaming PCs should be fun. > >No, they should be shot. Ah, an irrational fear and loathing towards an inanimate object. Very interesting - I suggest therapy. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> It really doesn't matter how fast the PC is when it has Windows >> running on it. Hell, as son as I get my Linux box up and running, I >> won't ever need to use this Windows one ever again, unless a game I >> want to play doesn't have Linux drivers. > >Which probably means that all of your old games are junk and you won't >be able to play them. Which is par for the course on a PC. I don't >know why people even bother claiming that PC's are backwards compatible. >They really aren't, and the more specialized the app the less likely it >will be supported in the future. Games are pretty specialized apps when >it comes right down to it, so they're among the least likely to work in >the future.

How you made that jump in logic is unbelievable. Because he likes Linux, all his games are junk? But then you say it's the PC's fault. Um, make up your mind, is it the software, or the hardware? PC's are backwards compatible, but the OS may not be. XP won't run old DOS games without a bunch of tweaking, if at all. I can run all my old DOS games on my PC, and I'm running Win98SE. Obviously, we have our differences. You can't get your stuff to run. I(and most people here) can run what we want just fine. Sure, let's blame the PC, when you're the only one who can't get anything to run. It can't *possibly* be user error on your part, huh? Gawd, what an ego... You're bordering on troll status, dude... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Chuck C. wrote: > > snip > > > > Chuck, you are either a GREAT troll, or just one seriously dumb MF.Please > > let us know what Tel-com you work for, if you're their tech, thats one > > company I dont want to rely on. > <whips out cock> > Don't worry about it, you couldn't afford my services anyway as they're > $150 per hour with a 4-hour minimum. If you even call me you're out > $600. Of course, a lot of that is to pay for the test equipment I use. > The SONET BERT set alone costs over $45,000. <puts cock away> Hmm, I'm still not impressed.

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> > Or, I might just be able to explain all the bitterness. You're wife > > cheated on you in an online chatroom on the computer while you were > > downstairs playing on your kiddie game, didn't she?? > > Actually, no, my ex was so computer illiterate that she called the > exterminator to try and get rid of the mouse. Tell her to click on > a screen icon and she'd look for Harrison Ford. She couldn't type, > either. She thought Caps Lock was in the medicine cabinet for child > safety, and she thought Tab was the diet soda in the refrigerator.

Ouch. It's almost impossible to string together 4 horrible jokes. > Once she asked me for a calculator and I handed her my HP Scientific > with RPN just to watch the antics of her trying to figure that one out. > After that she never wanted to see anything with an "enter" key again. > I bet you used that HP to calculate your 4 hour fee mentioned earlier. C'mon, admit it? > Probably the stupidest thing that ever happened to my technophobic ex > was the time the power went out and I was gone for a week. She > couldn't set the clock on the microwave, and it won't work unless the > clock is set so she kept on running over to the 7-11 to use theirs. > Make that 5 horrible jokes. > Believe me, there are some super technological illiterati in this > world and my ex was one of the worst. She wouldn't get on a chat > room and if she wanted to she couldn't ever figure out how to do it. > It's not hard to see why she's your EX-wife. Spousal abuse is grounds for divorce. ;0) BTW, was "illiterati" a typo or a pseudo-intellectual abuse of Latin plural? -- Joe M.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane > <[email hidden]> writes: ><Snipped> > > PC's are backwards compatible, but the OS may not be. XP won't run oldDOS > games without a bunch of tweaking, if at all. I can run all my old DOSgames > on my PC, and I'm running Win98SE. Obviously, we have our differences.You > can't get your stuff to run. I(and most people here) can run what we wantjust > fine. Sure, let's blame the PC, when you're the only one who can't get > anything to run. It can't *possibly* be user error on your part, huh?Gawd, > what an ego... > You're bordering on troll status, dude... > Bordering? He has long crossed that border and Border Patrol is in hot pursuit. This guy is such a pain in the ass, Doane's Pills for low back pain were named after him. Of course, they're not clinically proven to treat pain in the asses. ;0) -- Joe Marques

On Sun, 29 Sep 2002 12:29:25 -0400, "Longhorn" <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but instead came out sounding like this... :

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>No, sorry, Windows can hardly be callsed bloatware on an Athlon XP2000+ PC >unless you're willing to call just about every other *nix or Linux OS runing >the X Windowing system/X Windows (w/ KDE, GNOME, etc) bloatware too. Even >more amusing is that the arguably most popular of the bunch, KDE, is nothing >more than a copy of the old Windows GUI. If you don't believe me, please, >be my guess and try it out for yourself. Try running Windows on the same >hardware you run Linux or *nix with X Windows, you'll find the PC will >perform/run just about the same under both enviornments. If you really want >to see your Linux system choke, try using Star Office, then we can talk >about bloatware.

Let's see, I checked my friend's Windows XP folder. 1.41 GB. Now, even you can't honestly say that XP requires such a large footprint/disk space requirement to run. When you start adding all the other 'features' that MS throws into their OSes, however, that's where the large footprint/disk space requirement comes in. I know you like to say how that's all functionality, but in all honesty an OS does not need many of the programs that come bundled in Windows to be functional. But the bundling of IE into the Windows OS (which can't be removed) is not necessary, it's just another tactic to ensure marketshare in the Internet browser market. The bundling of Outlook/Outlook Express is not necessary for the OS to function (and given how Outlook/Express are the easiest email clients to hit with viruses, I'd say their inclusion hurts the OS more than helps it). The bundling of the WMP isn't necessary. Etc. Especially when you consider that 2k/XP is supposed to be a server OS as well. There's absoulutely no need for half or more of those programs in a server OS. That's bloatware. Things bundled into the OS that are not necessary for the OS to perform it's job, and in some cases which hinder the OS/make the OS vunerable to malicious code/attack.. >...you do know you can turn these off, right? Yes. But in most cases it is only after the install. They don't often inform you that they are putting themselves into the system tray. It's easy enough to turn them off, but some of them automatically go back into the system tray as soon as you open the program (the Real Player is notorius for this, hence one reason why I don't use it). >Are you insane? Only the now essentially discontinued Win 9x OSs were >horrible at managing resources and thats when compared to the likes of >NT/2000/XP/.Net. Windows NT4,2000,XP, and .Net all manage system resources >remarkably well. Glad to see it only got them 9 tries to get that right. But since I'm not running the NT kernel, nor are the majority of home users, the fact that Windows is horrible at managing resources still stands for most people. >lol, not really, personally, I find Netscape crashes the most on systems >running Linux. And IE crashes the most on systems running Windows. The point being? >...that is unfortunate you're running into these problems as Explorer rarely >crashes on Windows systems w/ an NT kernel. Hell, if we're going to be >intellecutally honest here, Explorer rarely crashes on a well maintained Win >9x system, its just that the likely hood of it crashing under win >nt/2k/xp/.net is much much smaller. Although better Explorer crashes in Win >than X crashing in *nix/linux which unfortunately, frequently does happen. I think I'll be running most of my programs from the command line, rather than GUIs. I always liked command lines better, even back in DOS days. However I went for a remarkably long time with very few crashes (over a year with fewer than 10 crashes) until about a month an a half ago. Right after downloading one of theose damn 'critical updates' from MS for Windows. Now I can have Explorer crash itself, literally, multiple times within seconds (as soon as I close the first illegal operation message, another one pops up, and sometimes a third), and this happens EVERY SINGLE DAY now, with no exceptions. And while I am doing such resource intensive things like clicking on a link in a web page, or clicking on the back button in the browser (normally in IE). It's possible that this has happened because I am running the first edition of Windows 98 on this machine. However other people I know are having simmilar problems and they run Win98SE. I'm more inclined to think MS is releasing bad code to try and get people to see the 'need' to upgrade to XP. All the people I know with these crashing problems had them start after downloading a few recent critical update packages. Of course you won't beleive MS would do this. But then you also probably didn't think MS was using unfair, and illegal, business practices for years either. >This really doesn't make sense. You could just as easily say it doesn't >matter how fast the PC is when any other non Win OS is running on it. Unless 2k/XP has fixed the over reliance of virtual memory in Windows, the system will inevitably slow itself down soon enough. >Honestly I always giggle when I hear people say this, in no time at all >they're back to using Windows. Who knows, maybe you'll be the overwhelming >odds and it will be true in your case. Good luck Possibly. But after all the crap I deal with on Windows, even going back to DOS would be an improvement for me. >By in large you'll be limited to Open GL games, and its too bad for you that >Direct X's popularity is on the rise and arguably more popular than Open GL >is now a days. Ah, but I prefer OpenGL and Glide over DirectX anyway. And most of the games I play support them as well (and in some cases are programmed in one of them first, and ported to DirectX). ------ Sam Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil. -Saying on a friend's T-shirt, author unknown to me.

Charles Doane wrote:

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> > > Chuck C. wrote: > >> snip >> >> Chuck, you are either a GREAT troll, or just one seriously dumb MF. >> Please let us know what Tel-com you work for, if you're their tech, >> thats one company I dont want to rely on. > > > Don't worry about it, you couldn't afford my services anyway as they're > $150 per hour with a 4-hour minimum. If you even call me you're out > $600. Of course, a lot of that is to pay for the test equipment I use. > The SONET BERT set alone costs over $45,000.

<Snort> For somebody without the sense to use a legacy soundcard for an 8 yr old game!

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> Actually, no, my ex was so computer illiterate that she called the > exterminator to try and get rid of the mouse. Tell her to click on > a screen icon and she'd look for Harrison Ford. She couldn't type, > either. She thought Caps Lock was in the medicine cabinet for child > safety, and she thought Tab was the diet soda in the refrigerator. > > Once she asked me for a calculator and I handed her my HP Scientific > with RPN just to watch the antics of her trying to figure that one out. > After that she never wanted to see anything with an "enter" key again. > > Probably the stupidest thing that ever happened to my technophobic ex > was the time the power went out and I was gone for a week. She > couldn't set the clock on the microwave, and it won't work unless the > clock is set so she kept on running over to the 7-11 to use theirs.

And she was the brains of the family. <g> -- Fester None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.hermes-press.com/police_state.htm

Charles Doane wrote:

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> > > The Doctor wrote: >> >> Well that's what you get for using MSWindows! > > > You mean the OS that's required for most commercial PC games this side > of 1996?

Funny. Unreal Tournament 2003 has both versions (Linux & Windows) on it's cd's. Look for it to become a pattern. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/21/1341249&mode=thread&tid=127

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>> I never had any of these weird problems on my IBM PC clone. >> Not all PC users are using MSWin! Some are Linux or FreeBSD users. >> (Linux, myself) >> I just use MS-DOS for games. >> I mostly use Linux for the Internet and some Unix text games. >> And Apple and Sony make PCs too. >> (you know that Sony sells Linux for their PlayStation 2, right?) > > > Not to me they're not selling any Linux. So, basically, you're stuck > with suck-patootie games that are either six years old or text-based. > Yip-yip-yahoo. No thanks, I'll just play my consoles.

Remember, this guy is too lazy to tweak anything. One of those gnat-sized attention spanned folk who can only grasp instant gratification without any effort expended. Text-based or 6 yr old games only on Linux. Let's see... Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2003, SimCity 3000, SiN, Soldier of Fortune, Railroad Tycoon 2, Mind Rover, Deus Ex... Yeah, sure buddy. -- Fester None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.hermes-press.com/police_state.htm

Joe M. wrote:

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> "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >> >>Chuck C. wrote: >> >>>snip >>> >>>Chuck, you are either a GREAT troll, or just one seriously dumb MF. >> > Please > >>>let us know what Tel-com you work for, if you're their tech, thats one >>>company I dont want to rely on. >> > > <whips out cock>

I'm actually sterile, thank-you-very-much.

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>>Don't worry about it, you couldn't afford my services anyway as they're >>$150 per hour with a 4-hour minimum. If you even call me you're out >>$600. Of course, a lot of that is to pay for the test equipment I use. >>The SONET BERT set alone costs over $45,000. > > > <puts cock away>

Haven't used it in 15 years anyway. > Hmm, I'm still not impressed. Of course not. That's because you're just looking for a blind flamewar with somebody a lot better at it than you'll ever be.

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>>>Or, I might just be able to explain all the bitterness. You're wife >>>cheated on you in an online chatroom on the computer while you were >>>downstairs playing on your kiddie game, didn't she?? >> >>Actually, no, my ex was so computer illiterate that she called the >>exterminator to try and get rid of the mouse. Tell her to click on >>a screen icon and she'd look for Harrison Ford. She couldn't type, >>either. She thought Caps Lock was in the medicine cabinet for child >>safety, and she thought Tab was the diet soda in the refrigerator. > Ouch. It's almost impossible to string together 4 horrible jokes.

I managed to do it though, so you'd best be impressed. I can do the almost impossible. In fact the only reason anything is "almost" impossible is that I can do it. >>Once she asked me for a calculator and I handed her my HP Scientific >>with RPN just to watch the antics of her trying to figure that one out. >>After that she never wanted to see anything with an "enter" key again. > I bet you used that HP to calculate your 4 hour fee mentioned earlier. > C'mon, admit it? I don't even see that money. It's not my test equipment. I just know how to use it. That's what I'm paid for. >>Probably the stupidest thing that ever happened to my technophobic ex >>was the time the power went out and I was gone for a week. She >>couldn't set the clock on the microwave, and it won't work unless the >>clock is set so she kept on running over to the 7-11 to use theirs. > Make that 5 horrible jokes. No, that was a true story. She was so stupid that she didn't even think about the fully functional oven in the apartment. It was nice in a way, as there wasn't any oven cleaning to get the deposit back. Her idea of a home cooked meal was Swanson.

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>>Believe me, there are some super technological illiterati in this >>world and my ex was one of the worst. She wouldn't get on a chat >>room and if she wanted to she couldn't ever figure out how to do it. > It's not hard to see why she's your EX-wife. Spousal abuse is grounds for > divorce. ;0)

She abused me a heck of a lot more. I had to live with a moron. How many times do you have to show somebody how to use the VCR before it qualifies as abuse? I wasn't in any marriage, I was conned into assisted living. > BTW, was "illiterati" a typo or a pseudo-intellectual abuse of Latin plural? I don't make typos very often. My grasp of the English language is well above average, and I don't bother with spell checkers as my spelling is usually far superior to any machine's. I say what I mean. If your reading comprehension is not up to the task, then that is a problem of yours, not mine. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Uncle Fester wrote:

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> Charles Doane wrote: > >> >> >> The Doctor wrote: >> >>> >>> Well that's what you get for using MSWindows! >> >> >> >> You mean the OS that's required for most commercial PC games this side >> of 1996? > Funny. Unreal Tournament 2003 has both versions (Linux & Windows) on > it's cd's. Look for it to become a pattern. > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/21/1341249&mode=thread&tid=127

That would be the game I bought from a bargain bin a YEAR ago for the DC and never wanted to play enough to even break the wrapper? THAT P.O.S.? FPS games are slow, they're made to forgive latency, and they're brain dead friendly. The games are sloppy and the players are rude. Screw it.

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>>> I never had any of these weird problems on my IBM PC clone. >>> Not all PC users are using MSWin! Some are Linux or FreeBSD users. >>> (Linux, myself) >>> I just use MS-DOS for games. >>> I mostly use Linux for the Internet and some Unix text games. >>> And Apple and Sony make PCs too. >>> (you know that Sony sells Linux for their PlayStation 2, right?) >> >> >> >> Not to me they're not selling any Linux. So, basically, you're stuck >> with suck-patootie games that are either six years old or text-based. >> Yip-yip-yahoo. No thanks, I'll just play my consoles. > > Remember, this guy is too lazy to tweak anything.

Lazy doesn't have anything to do with it. When I put a game on, that's MY TIME, and I'm paying to be entertained. It should be a done deal. If an oil change went the way PC games usually do, it'd be like this: Customer: I'm here to pick up my car. You changed the oil, right? Mechanic: Well, we drained it but we didn't know which brand to use. Customer: If I'd have cared, I'd have told you in the first place. Mechanic: Nope, you have to pick a favorite! We need you to pick! Customer: Oh, for the love of Pete! Valvoline, OKAY? Does THAT work? Mechanic: This is a Pennzoil shop. We don't have Valvoline. Customer: Then put Pennzoil into the car! I DON'T CARE! DO IT! Mechanic: Thank you! Your car will be ready in another hour. Customer: <seriously thinks about busting a cap in mechanic ass> I'm paying OTHER PEOPLE to do something for me when I buy a game. Either they can do the job, or they can't. If I have to lift so much as one finger to help them, then they can't, they're incompetent, and I don't want to do business with them at all. > One of those gnat-sized attention spanned folk who can only grasp instant > gratification without any effort expended. No effort expended? MY BUTT! How do *you* get $50 without any effort? That money is EARNED, and anybody who wants some of it has to do some EARNING too. I paid my dues in cold hard cash. I'm the boss, it works for me. It's a machine, it's MY machine, and I'm supposed to be the one receiving pleasure. > Text-based or 6 yr old games only on Linux. Let's see... Unreal > Tournament, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2003, SimCity 3000, SiN, Soldier > of Fortune, Railroad Tycoon 2, Mind Rover, Deus Ex... Yeah, sure buddy. Name a game I actually want to play. Something like Swingerz Golf for the Gamecube? -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

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> > The Doctor wrote: > >> > >> Well that's what you get for using MSWindows! > > > > > > You mean the OS that's required for most commercial PC games this side > > of 1996?

Isn't it also the OS for Sega Dreamcast and Xbox? dave henrie

Charles Doane wrote:

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> > > Uncle Fester wrote: > >> Charles Doane wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> The Doctor wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Well that's what you get for using MSWindows! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> You mean the OS that's required for most commercial PC games this side >>> of 1996? >> > >> Funny. Unreal Tournament 2003 has both versions (Linux & Windows) on >> it's cd's. Look for it to become a pattern. >> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/21/1341249&mode=thread&tid=127 > > > That would be the game I bought from a bargain bin a YEAR ago for the DC > and never wanted to play enough to even break the wrapper? THAT P.O.S.? > FPS games are slow, they're made to forgive latency, and they're brain > dead friendly. The games are sloppy and the players are rude. Screw it.

It's a new release. Doesn't matter though, don't change the subject. Either: A) it's a commercial release this side of 1996 not requiring Windows or B) it is not. Personal feelings/opinion are irrelevant.

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>>>> I never had any of these weird problems on my IBM PC clone. >>>> Not all PC users are using MSWin! Some are Linux or FreeBSD users. >>>> (Linux, myself) >>>> I just use MS-DOS for games. >>>> I mostly use Linux for the Internet and some Unix text games. >>>> And Apple and Sony make PCs too. >>>> (you know that Sony sells Linux for their PlayStation 2, right?) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Not to me they're not selling any Linux. So, basically, you're stuck >>> with suck-patootie games that are either six years old or text-based. >>> Yip-yip-yahoo. No thanks, I'll just play my consoles. >> > >> >> Remember, this guy is too lazy to tweak anything. > > > Lazy doesn't have anything to do with it. When I put a game on, that's > MY TIME, and I'm paying to be entertained. It should be a done deal. > > If an oil change went the way PC games usually do, it'd be like this: > > Customer: I'm here to pick up my car. You changed the oil, right? > Mechanic: Well, we drained it but we didn't know which brand to use. > Customer: If I'd have cared, I'd have told you in the first place. > Mechanic: Nope, you have to pick a favorite! We need you to pick! > Customer: Oh, for the love of Pete! Valvoline, OKAY? Does THAT work? > Mechanic: This is a Pennzoil shop. We don't have Valvoline. > Customer: Then put Pennzoil into the car! I DON'T CARE! DO IT! > Mechanic: Thank you! Your car will be ready in another hour. > Customer: <seriously thinks about busting a cap in mechanic ass> > > I'm paying OTHER PEOPLE to do something for me when I buy a game. > Either they can do the job, or they can't. If I have to lift so > much as one finger to help them, then they can't, they're incompetent, > and I don't want to do business with them at all.

See?

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> > > One of those gnat-sized attention spanned folk who can only grasp > instant > >> gratification without any effort expended. > > > No effort expended? MY BUTT! How do *you* get $50 without any effort? > That money is EARNED, and anybody who wants some of it has to do some > EARNING too. I paid my dues in cold hard cash. I'm the boss, it works > for me. It's a machine, it's MY machine, and I'm supposed to be the one > receiving pleasure.

Uh-huh. (I'm a mechanic. Doesn't take me long to fleece someone like you for $50) :-)

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> >> Text-based or 6 yr old games only on Linux. Let's see... Unreal >> Tournament, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2003, SimCity 3000, SiN, >> Soldier of Fortune, Railroad Tycoon 2, Mind Rover, Deus Ex... Yeah, >> sure buddy. > > > Name a game I actually want to play. > Something like Swingerz Golf for the Gamecube?

I rest my case. Irrelevant personal opinion in an attempt to change the focus once again. These are all commercial releases, post '96, & not text based. Although I don't see any harm in a good text based adventure now & then. ;-) -- Fester None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.hermes-press.com/police_state.htm

LOL! The fact that you mention the ability to run 8 tracks on your "Stereo" system as a point of pride speaks volumes. Hell, 8-tracks were 15+ years gone and a bad joke back when you were trying to figure out how to get Duke to run on Winders. Your observations are some of the funniest stuff I have read in ages. Hate to think of you trying to set up even a simple home theater system, or for that matter navigating through a DVD menu. "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Lange_666th wrote: > > Agree but then you also have to consider this... > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > Does your console run music programs? > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > Does your console run database programs? > > Does your console run mail programs? > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > etc.... > > You have to consider this... > Does anybody do that at home? > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office programs. > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could > honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > > > Does your console run music programs? > > Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. > I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a > word processor for a toy. > > > Does your console run database programs? > > Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. > There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do > that. The PC is just a source of spam. > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the > heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than > kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > > > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > > Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT > job. That's what consoles are. > > > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer, and

all

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> > the other stuff. > > If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > > installing driver problems etc... > > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. > > I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing > with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes > up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS > ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games > inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a > PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > > > PS: > > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? > > That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console > gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". > Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". > To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black > and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works > or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house. > > > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. > > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? > > Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to > game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at > getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. > > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

Oh man the memories, my first gun was a J.C. Higgins 20 gauge, probably about the same vintage. I learned at an early age I don't care for hunting except for those pesky and dangerous Skeet. Remembering my first and only Duck hunt with my father and a friend. It could have been an episode of the 3 stooges with the exception that we all knew and respected the safety rules of firearms. "Chris von Seggern" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Iyll9.435954$[email hidden]...

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> > "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Lange_666th wrote: > > > Agree but then you also have to consider this... > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > > Does your console run music programs? > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > > Does your console run database programs? > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > > etc.... > > > > You have to consider this... > > Does anybody do that at home? > > Yes, plenty of people do. Join the 21st century. > > > > Does your console run Office programs? > > > > Silly me, I run those at the office. That's why they're Office

programs. > > The irrelevancy of this argument aside, PC's are often used as tools inthe

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> home as well as the office. They aren't *just* for gaming. > > > > Does your console run drawing programs? > > > > If it weren't for taking screenshots of error messages at work, I could > > honestly say that I've never run Paint in the last five years. > > So your usage pattern determines what everybody else needs too? I use

Paint

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> all the time on my home PC. > > > > Does your console run music programs? > > > > Silly me, I have a stereo system to play music the old-fashioned way. > > I even play 8-tracks on it. Music programs can't do that. > > You still have an 8-track player? You *are* a technophobe, aren't you? > > > > Does your console run wordprocessers? > > > > I see that your spell check is running fabulously. I don't WANT a > > word processor for a toy. > > That's the whole point, genius. A PC isn't just a toy like a console is. > It's a TOOL as much as a toy. > > > > Does your console run database programs? > > > > Actually, yeah, they do. That's how they manage game saves. > > When was the last time you ran Access, SQL Server, or an Oracle database > from your Xbox? > > > > Does your console run mail programs? > > > No, there's a mailbox on my porch which handles my mail needs. > > There's a whole bunch of nice people in the Post Office to do > > that. The PC is just a source of spam. > > Effective as it is, the USPS can't get a message to the other side of the > globe inside of five minutes. And if you know how to take a few simple > protective steps, you can stop most of the spam. > > > > Does your console run video editing programs? > > > Oh, there's something I do every day <sarcasm>. Who in the > > heck runs video editing programs for home use? Other than > > kiddie porn there's no real purpose for it. > > I can name two people (one friend and one relative) who do this, just off > the top of my head. Just because *you* don't run this kind of software > doesn't mean other people don't find it useful. > > > > Nope, it doesn't, that's why it's a console. > > > > Which is exactly what I want. The RIGHT tool for the RIGHT > > job. That's what consoles are. > > This much is true. If all you want is to play games, consoles are the way > to go. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, if you want full > access to the widest range of gaming experiences, PC gaming is where it's > at. Some genres (like flight sims, for example) are pretty much

nonexistent > in the console world. > > > > And if you want it to do, you have to hook a keyboard up, a printer,and

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> all > > > the other stuff. > > > > If it was just hooking them up, I wouldn't be bothered. It's the > > seemingly endless patches, registrations, and configurations that > > rip the fun right out of anything associated with a PC. > > The only registered piece of software on my PC is XP itself. Everything > else is legally-licensed gaming, productivity and utility software that I > have no need to register. Patching is just a fact of life with PC's, but

it

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> really isn't that big a chore. > > > > And tell me then, what do you have? Yes A PC !!! with all the nice > > > installing driver problems etc... > > > There is a little effort to make when you want to run all at once. > > > > I don't deny that this is a PC. I'm about to shoot the damned thing > > with my classic 1962 J.C. Higgins Model 20 12-Gauge shotgun if it comes > > up with one more error message or another stupid question trying to PISS > > ME OFF. This is NOT a "little effort". I had my Xbox playing games > > inside of 10 minutes of opening the console's package. You can't get a > > PC to do that on a bet to save your life. > > Sure I can. I do it all the time. Here's an idea. Instead of shooting

the

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> PC, why not just package it up and ship it to me? I'd be glad to take the > horrible Satanic evil nasty beats-you-up-and-takes-your-lunch-money thing > off your hands. > > > > PS: > > > Why should i buy a console if i can get it to run on my PC? > > > > That's because you have to ask "if". There's no "if" in console > > gaming. It's going to run, no "if" about it. I don't like "if". > > Like Yoda said, "There is no Try. There is only Do, or Do Not". > > To Hell with "if". I don't play with "if". My world is black > > and white, and I don't accept maybe's or if's or try's. It works > > or it doesn't. "IF" is the same as "doesn't" in my house. > > Oof. I hope you don't have children. Their lives must be hell. And > console games *can* puke. I've had my Xbox hang on me before. It's rare, > but it's not impossible. > > > > And even more, why should i buy a PC if i could run it on my console. > > > Would having one of those not be simpler then having them both? > > > Simpler is the bailiwick of the console. There's no good reason to > > game on a PC. It's like racing garbage trucks. They're great at > > getting garbage, but they suck for most anything else. > > Hardly. Like I said before, there are some genres that just don't exist

for

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> consoles. Especially in the sim world, PC's just plain can do things that > consoles can't. Consoles are great for 90% of the game types that exist, > but they aren't the be-all and end-all of electronic entertainment. > > Chris > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 > >

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> > > Funny. Unreal Tournament 2003 has both versions (Linux & Windows) on > > it's cd's. Look for it to become a pattern. > > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/21/1341249&mode=thread&tid=127 > > That would be the game I bought from a bargain bin a YEAR ago for the DC > and never wanted to play enough to even break the wrapper? THAT P.O.S.? > FPS games are slow, they're made to forgive latency, and they're brain > dead friendly. The games are sloppy and the players are rude. Screw it.

Charlie-boy, you're such an idiot. Let's set aside the fact that you're thinking of a different game, since UT2003 isn't even out yet. Let's instead focus on your logic and your spectacular display of ignorance regarding your subject. First of all, if you never wanted to play the game, why did you buy it? Personally, I find my money is better spent if I save it for games that I want to play. Second, how the hell can you know whatever you bought was a POS if you never even cracked the cellophane? Was the box ugly or something? Or is it just maybe possible that the misconceptions you're so staunchly defending here led you to an unjustified conclusion? And finally, it's obvious you know next to nothing about the FPS genre. I'm assuming that the game you're thinking of was the original Unreal Tournament. That game was anything but slow. I was running it on a PII 333 with a Voodoo3. As long as I didn't try to max the detail settings, it ran VERY smoothly. On the Athlon 700 I upgraded to, it was like oiled glass even with everything turned up. Nothing slow about it. And it was *not* made to forgive latency. As someone who played this game over a dialup connection for a long time, I can certify that ping was a big issue in this (and any other modern shooter) title. Skill is definitely more important, but if two players are of equal ability, the one with the lower ping will win 90% of the time or more. You'd know this if you'd bothered to play any of the games you're bashing. <snip> > Lazy doesn't have anything to do with it. When I put a game on, that's > MY TIME, and I'm paying to be entertained. It should be a done deal. If you're looking for such passive entertainment, might I suggest TV? You don't have to do anything at all. No messing around with those inconvenient consoles, with their hard-to-use gamepads and the game discs you have to make sure you put in right-side-up. You can just sit back, turn the brain off, and vegetate for as much of YOUR TIME as you want. Sounds like it's much more your speed.

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> If an oil change went the way PC games usually do, it'd be like this: > > Customer: I'm here to pick up my car. You changed the oil, right? > Mechanic: Well, we drained it but we didn't know which brand to use. > Customer: If I'd have cared, I'd have told you in the first place. > Mechanic: Nope, you have to pick a favorite! We need you to pick! > Customer: Oh, for the love of Pete! Valvoline, OKAY? Does THAT work? > Mechanic: This is a Pennzoil shop. We don't have Valvoline. > Customer: Then put Pennzoil into the car! I DON'T CARE! DO IT! > Mechanic: Thank you! Your car will be ready in another hour. > Customer: <seriously thinks about busting a cap in mechanic ass> > > I'm paying OTHER PEOPLE to do something for me when I buy a game. > Either they can do the job, or they can't. If I have to lift so > much as one finger to help them, then they can't, they're incompetent, > and I don't want to do business with them at all.

Are you really this incapable of distinguishing between a product and a service? When you take your car to the mechanic for an oil change, they have YOUR vehicle right there in front of them. They know exactly what year, make and model it is, and have references (if needed) to tell them exactly what filter to use, where everything is located, etc. Of course they can do it without your intervention. If you really want to draw a parallel between oil changes and game development, it'd be more accurate to suppose you were to call the mechanic several months before the oil change was to be performed and tell him you wanted some work done on an unidentified vehicle that may have two, three or four wheels, might be gas-powered, electric or a hybrid, and might have been manufactured in any country on the planet to any standard (or none at all) in existence. Then you'd expect him to provide you with incredibly detailed instructions, perfect to the letter, on exactly how this was to be accomplished, including how many times to turn what kind of wrench and what size coveralls you should wear while doing the work. > > One of those gnat-sized attention spanned folk who can only graspinstant

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> > gratification without any effort expended. > > No effort expended? MY BUTT! How do *you* get $50 without any effort? > That money is EARNED, and anybody who wants some of it has to do some > EARNING too. I paid my dues in cold hard cash. I'm the boss, it works > for me. It's a machine, it's MY machine, and I'm supposed to be the one > receiving pleasure.

With this kind of belligerence, it's no surprise you only receive pleasure from machines :) > > Text-based or 6 yr old games only on Linux. Let's see... Unreal > > Tournament, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2003, SimCity 3000, SiN, Soldier > > of Fortune, Railroad Tycoon 2, Mind Rover, Deus Ex... Yeah, sure buddy. > > Name a game I actually want to play. > Something like Swingerz Golf for the Gamecube? Irrelevant. Your personal taste in games has nothing to do with what's at issue here, which is the suitability of the PC platform for gameplay. Knock down straw men all you want, but it won't prove anything. Chris --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002

"Sam Altersitz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 29 Sep 2002 12:29:25 -0400, "Longhorn" > <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but > instead came out sounding like this... : > > >No, sorry, Windows can hardly be callsed bloatware on an Athlon XP2000+PC > >unless you're willing to call just about every other *nix or Linux OSruning > >the X Windowing system/X Windows (w/ KDE, GNOME, etc) bloatware too.Even > >more amusing is that the arguably most popular of the bunch, KDE, isnothing > >more than a copy of the old Windows GUI. If you don't believe me,please, > >be my guess and try it out for yourself. Try running Windows on the same > >hardware you run Linux or *nix with X Windows, you'll find the PC will > >perform/run just about the same under both enviornments. If you reallywant > >to see your Linux system choke, try using Star Office, then we can talk > >about bloatware. > > Let's see, I checked my friend's Windows XP folder. 1.41 GB. Now, > even you can't honestly say that XP requires such a large > footprint/disk space requirement to run. Windows 2000 will take just over a gig of space on hard drive. With the graphic/multimedia extras, XP just takes slightly more space on a HD than 2000. >When you start adding all > the other 'features' that MS throws into their OSes, however, that's > where the large footprint/disk space requirement comes in. Here it becomes evident you are completely unaware how much hd space a standard GNU/Linux installation takes up. Standard Linux installations (w/ Xwin, KDE & Gnome, etc) take up just about as much space as a standard 2000/Xp installation. Linux installations actually take up more HD space than Windows if you start installing all of the bells&whisles and "features" that Linux installation discs are jam packed with. You seem to be under some impression that the market demands the utmost bare essentials in an OS for a PC to "run," this is hardly the case. The market essentially demands/requires an Internet enabled OS. Win, Mac, Linux, etc are all Internet ready OS's, they come with browswers, email clients and the proper software/files to establish basic Internet connections. Also a barebones Windows installation doesn't come with a whole lot extra "featurs," as you like to call them. A barebones Windows 2000/XP installation will include the OS, IE, Outlook Express/messenger, media player, a few accessories (calculator, notepad/wordpad, paint, simple games, etc) and system tools. That is basically it. > > I know you like to say how that's all functionality, but in all > honesty an OS does not need many of the programs that come bundled in > Windows to be functional. Again, a barebones Windows installation doesn't come with all that many programs "bundled" in. The programs Windows is bundled with are arguably needed for the OS to be functional *especially* in todays Internet/Multimedia world. You're singling out Windows here for no particular reason other than general bias. If you're going to be intellectually honest you'd have to single out just about every other viable OS outhere since they offer "extra" programs which aren't absolutely essential to run a computer. When will you start griping about how the Mac or standard Linux installations come with sooooo many bundled programs which are not necessary to have a functional OS? >But the bundling of IE into the Windows OS > (which can't be removed) is not necessary, I and many others believe the browser is an integral part of any modern operating system. You don't seem to be angry at Apple for including IE in Mac OS 9 & X. > it's just another tactic to > ensure marketshare in the Internet browser market. no, not entirely true. MSFT won the "browswer wars" with IE 4, Netscape's offerings were arguably inferior to that of MSFT, this holds true to this day. Netscape 3 vs IE3 was debateable. Anything before IE 3, Netscape clearly offered a superior product. > The bundling of > Outlook/Outlook Express is not necessary for the OS to function What are you talking about? Almost everyone now who is using Windows 2000 or Windows XP is some kind of a network or has some kind of an Internet connection. The market demands their OS feature some type of email client. The Mac OS, GNULinux OS, etc all have some sort of email client, why are you singling out MSFT here? I mean it is obvious youre bias against MSFT but you're not even making a decent point anymore. (and > given how Outlook/Express are the easiest email clients to hit with > viruses, Wrong again. Technically Outlook is more susceptible to viruses than OE but these viruses only affect users who have notoriously low security settings. I have been use both Outlook and OE for *years* never once have I been a victim of a malicous email virus. >I'd say their inclusion hurts the OS more than helps it). Well pretty much everyone else in the business world would say you're dead wrong. Outlook is arguably the most functional personal email client on the planet today, millions and millions of people use it today and find other email clients sub par in comparison. MSFT truly has a winner with Outlook, people absolutely adore it, hence its popularity. Notice how Outlooks isn't bundled with Windows either, people pay good money to use it, and for good reason too. OE on the other is essentially just a basic email client, one could do better, I simply use it as a basic news reader. > The bundling of the WMP isn't necessary. Are you kidding me, in todays DVD, mp3, mpeg consuming world? A functional high quality media player is absoultey important in a mulitmedia PC. Do you single out Apple for including Quicktime in the Mac or the dozesns of Linux distros for offering many media players in many standard Linux installations? Doesn't look like it. The hypocrisy of your post Sam is very evident. >Etc. Especially when you > consider that 2k/XP is supposed to be a server OS as well. Huh? Windows 2000 Professional, Windows XP Home Edition, and Windows XP Professional are supposed to be server OS's? Come on Sam, you can do better than that, you're not even trying anymore here. The only supported widely available server OS's MSFT has today are Windows 2000 server, advanced server, and data center. >There's > absoulutely no need for half or more of those programs in a server OS. > Well that certainly is debatable. It all depends on what type of media/files the computer is primarily dealing with. > > That's bloatware. No it isn't, it isn't slowing down the overall performance of the OS and essentially just about *every* gripe you've had about Windows so far can be said about a standard Mac OS setup and a standard Linux setup. The all include these features you apparently detest so much. Its time to come up with a real argument Sam. >Things bundled into the OS that are not necessary > for the OS to perform it's job, If I bought a new Windows powered PC ( or a PC with any other OS for that fact) and I couldn't automatically get it on the net, browse websites, get my email, read my newsgroups, and listen/watch various types of media files, I would say the OS doesn't have the necessary files to perform its job. As it stands now Windows has exactly what it needs to perform its job. > and in some cases which hinder the > OS/make the OS vunerable to malicious code/attack.. Not if you know anything about correct decent security/permission policies.

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> > >...you do know you can turn these off, right? > > Yes. But in most cases it is only after the install. They don't > often inform you that they are putting themselves into the system > tray. It's easy enough to turn them off, but some of them > automatically go back into the system tray as soon as you open the > program (the Real Player is notorius for this, hence one reason why I > don't use it).

Sounds like you're complaining about installing crappy software on your machine. You're supposed to be bashing Windows here, remember ;) lol > > >Are you insane? Only the now essentially discontinued Win 9x OSs were > >horrible at managing resources and thats when compared to the likes of > >NT/2000/XP/.Net. Windows NT4,2000,XP, and .Net all manage systemresources > >remarkably well. > > Glad to see it only got them 9 tries to get that right. ...and yet still MSFT was leagues ahead of the competition. Apple anyone? >But since I'm > not running the NT kernel, nor are the majority of home users, adoption doesn't happen over night. Millions and millions of people, both business and home users, are already using an NT version of Windows. >the > fact that Windows is horrible at managing resources still stands for > most people. Well this is all your opinion. Windows 9x is horrible at managing resources in comparions to a *nix style OS or an NT variant yes, but that is as far as it goes. The fact is most home computer users don't know enough about computers in general to know Win 9x ( or anything before Mac OS X) isn't the best at managing resouces. This is the sad fact of the avg computer user. > > >lol, not really, personally, I find Netscape crashes the most on systems > >running Linux. > > And IE crashes the most on systems running Windows. The point being? The point is you originally said programs run smoother on other OS's. This is not necessarily true as Netscape crashes many more times for me under Linux than in Windows. Since UNIX support was recently dropped, IE is only supported on Windows and Mac, playing the numbers alone of course IE will crash more often on systems running Windows than the Mac. It is still arguably the best browser on the planet. > > >...that is unfortunate you're running into these problems as Explorerrarely > >crashes on Windows systems w/ an NT kernel. Hell, if we're going to be > >intellecutally honest here, Explorer rarely crashes on a well maintainedWin > >9x system, its just that the likely hood of it crashing under win > >nt/2k/xp/.net is much much smaller. Although better Explorer crashes inWin > >than X crashing in *nix/linux which unfortunately, frequently doeshappen. > > I think I'll be running most of my programs from the command line, > rather than GUIs. I always liked command lines better, even back in > DOS days. Hey thats cool, run programs from the command line, just make sure said programs will not need to run in an X Windows (KDE, Gnome, etc) enviorment or your out of luck. Not to mention just about 99.9% of any worthwhile *nix/Linux app needs to run under X.

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> > However I went for a remarkably long time with very few crashes (over > a year with fewer than 10 crashes) until about a month an a half ago. > Right after downloading one of theose damn 'critical updates' from MS > for Windows. Now I can have Explorer crash itself, literally, > multiple times within seconds (as soon as I close the first illegal > operation message, another one pops up, and sometimes a third), and > this happens EVERY SINGLE DAY now, with no exceptions. And while I am > doing such resource intensive things like clicking on a link in a web > page, or clicking on the back button in the browser (normally in IE). >

That certainly is a shame, sounds like a few files needed to run Win 9x/IE properly are corrupt. These stability issues are a thing of the past with NT/2000/XP, and the upcomming .Net.

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> It's possible that this has happened because I am running the first > edition of Windows 98 on this machine. However other people I know > are having simmilar problems and they run Win98SE. I'm more inclined > to think MS is releasing bad code to try and get people to see the > 'need' to upgrade to XP. All the people I know with these crashing > problems had them start after downloading a few recent critical update > packages.

Honestly, this has to be one of the worst (and at the same time amusing) conspiracy theories I've heard in a while. > Of course you won't beleive MS would do this. Sadly, of course you would. >But then you also > probably didn't think MS was using unfair, and illegal, business > practices for years either. The Gov't found MSFT broke the law...honestly, who cares? I feel sorry for all those lost tax dollars spent on the trial. Considering the govts lousy case against MSFT, it somes as no suprise that MSFT barely even got a slap on the wrist. > > >This really doesn't make sense. You could just as easily say it doesn't > >matter how fast the PC is when any other non Win OS is running on it. > > Unless 2k/XP has fixed the over reliance of virtual memory in Windows, > the system will inevitably slow itself down soon enough. Don't you get it yet? That is what I'm saying, Windows 2000/XP doesn't become inexplicably slow for no apparent reason. Those were all DOS/legacy issues. I've seen Win 2k computers with uptimes of over a year and it is still as responsive as the first day it was booted. > > >Honestly I always giggle when I hear people say this, in no time at all > >they're back to using Windows. Who knows, maybe you'll be theoverwhelming > >odds and it will be true in your case. Good luck > > Possibly. But after all the crap I deal with on Windows, even going > back to DOS would be an improvement for me. lol, sure thing. > > >By in large you'll be limited to Open GL games, and its too bad for youthat > >Direct X's popularity is on the rise and arguably more popular than OpenGL > >is now a days. > > Ah, but I prefer OpenGL and Glide over DirectX anyway. And most of > the games I play support them as well (and in some cases are > programmed in one of them first, and ported to DirectX). Great, this works out in your favor then.

"PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:p9Gl9.105035$[email hidden]...

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> Really? I haven't seen any cache to a great degree, I wish they would. > At least I haven't noticed any cached data left behind after the game was > removed. > > I haven't noticed any impact the number of blocks free either. Like for > ripping CDs into it. >

A review of DOA3 I read mentioned it caches a large amount of data to the hard disk the first time a player runs the game. My point is it's generally much better to store data on a hard disk over a CD or DVD-ROM- access times are much shorter. And on a PC, this is called "installing".

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> > > -- > > > ==================================================== > > > "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vyl9.5679$[email hidden]... > : > : "Bob Perez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > : news:[email hidden]... > : > : > Who says there's not supposed to be any installation? What mythology

is > : > this? > : > : The irony is, of course, the XBox cache's data to the hard disk, insome

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> : cases large amounts. The difference between this and "installation" is > : purely semantics. > : > : > : > >

Dave Henrie wrote:

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>>>The Doctor wrote: >>> >>>>Well that's what you get for using MSWindows! >>> >>> >>>You mean the OS that's required for most commercial PC games this side >>>of 1996? >> > > Isn't it also the OS for Sega Dreamcast and Xbox? > dave henrie

Xbox, yes. DC was an option, mostly used for ports from PC. Sega released Sega Rally Championship 2 to show off what WinCE could do, and it was, well, less than completely spectacular compared to games like Vanishing Point and Metropolis Street Racer (Project Gotham Racing to Xbox). -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Uncle Fester wrote:

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> Charles Doane wrote: > >> >> >> Uncle Fester wrote: >> >>> Charles Doane wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Doctor wrote: >>>> >> That would be the game I bought from a bargain bin a YEAR ago for the DC >> and never wanted to play enough to even break the wrapper? THAT P.O.S.? >> FPS games are slow, they're made to forgive latency, and they're brain >> dead friendly. The games are sloppy and the players are rude. Screw it. > > > > It's a new release. Doesn't matter though, don't change the subject. > Either: A) it's a commercial release this side of 1996 not requiring > Windows or B) it is not. Personal feelings/opinion are irrelevant.

My point was never that there were NO new releases supporting Linux. I'm saying that they're few and far between. You're not going to disprove that by waving around one stupid game and saying "see! SEE!" at me. The fact that there's been "A" commercial release is not in contention. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the library is spartan at best. <snip> > Uh-huh. (I'm a mechanic. Doesn't take me long to fleece someone like > you for $50) :-) Not like I care, since I've made more than that with a 10 minute phone call just last week.

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>>> Text-based or 6 yr old games only on Linux. Let's see... Unreal >>> Tournament, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2003, SimCity 3000, SiN, >>> Soldier of Fortune, Railroad Tycoon 2, Mind Rover, Deus Ex... Yeah, >>> sure buddy. >> >> >> >> Name a game I actually want to play. >> Something like Swingerz Golf for the Gamecube? > > > > I rest my case.

The one you don't have? I'm sure it appreciates the down time. > Irrelevant personal opinion in an attempt to change the focus once > again. These are all commercial releases, post '96, & not text based. Compared to what the PSX got since '96, it's a JOKE. > Although I don't see any harm in a good text based adventure now & then. Nope, Zork was cool. The parsing was hard to get used to, but the game was solid. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Chris Townsend wrote: > LOL! The fact that you mention the ability to run 8 tracks on your "Stereo" > system as a point of pride speaks volumes. Hell, 8-tracks were 15+ years > gone and a bad joke back when you were trying to figure out how to get Duke > to run on Winders. Your observations are some of the funniest stuff I have > read in ages. Hate to think of you trying to set up even a simple home > theater system, or for that matter navigating through a DVD menu. 8 tracks kick butt. They were just underappreciated. There's a satisfaction in feeling that cartridge kick into place and hearing those belts wind that can't be duplicated in any other music media. BTW, I'm running a Dolby Pro-Logic system. Pioneer based, with Pioneers up front and Advent minis in the rear. Advent subwoofer handles the bass. You couldn't stand in my living room with it cranked. It would kill you. It's knocked pictures off of my walls and things off of tables. I went a little crazy with Mechwarrior 2 (Sega Saturn) and got the cops called to my house investigating a neighbor's report of World War III. My stereo ain't half-bad. I'll probably update it as soon as the standards settle down a bit more. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Chris von Seggern wrote:

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>>>Funny. Unreal Tournament 2003 has both versions (Linux & Windows) on >>>it's cd's. Look for it to become a pattern. >>>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/21/1341249&mode=thread&tid=127 >> >>That would be the game I bought from a bargain bin a YEAR ago for the DC >>and never wanted to play enough to even break the wrapper? THAT P.O.S.? >>FPS games are slow, they're made to forgive latency, and they're brain >>dead friendly. The games are sloppy and the players are rude. Screw it. > > > Charlie-boy, you're such an idiot. Let's set aside the fact that you're > thinking of a different game, since UT2003 isn't even out yet. Let's > instead focus on your logic and your spectacular display of ignorance > regarding your subject.

It's a sequel to a game I don't want to play even with it sitting on my shelf in my house. > First of all, if you never wanted to play the game, why did you buy it? > Personally, I find my money is better spent if I save it for games that I > want to play. I don't care about money. That's not a worry of mine. I just wanted a complete collection of Seganet games. That was a Seganet game, so in the interests of my complete collection, I had to have it. I don't want to play it, though. > Second, how the hell can you know whatever you bought was a POS if you never > even cracked the cellophane? Was the box ugly or something? Or is it just > maybe possible that the misconceptions you're so staunchly defending here > led you to an unjustified conclusion? The box is extremely ugly, and I hate FPS games. The only one that ever came close to changing my mind was HALO, but that's not a typical FPS game by a long shot. Somebody actually thought that one through and there's not quite as much stupidity to the "plot" (aka excuse to blast everything).

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> And finally, it's obvious you know next to nothing about the FPS genre. I'm > assuming that the game you're thinking of was the original Unreal > Tournament. That game was anything but slow. I was running it on a PII 333 > with a Voodoo3. As long as I didn't try to max the detail settings, it ran > VERY smoothly. On the Athlon 700 I upgraded to, it was like oiled glass > even with everything turned up. Nothing slow about it. And it was *not* > made to forgive latency. As someone who played this game over a dialup > connection for a long time, I can certify that ping was a big issue in this > (and any other modern shooter) title. Skill is definitely more important, > but if two players are of equal ability, the one with the lower ping will > win 90% of the time or more. You'd know this if you'd bothered to play any > of the games you're bashing.

I *HATE* the FPS genre. The BOTS are idiots. The AI sucks. A 12-year-old can beat them (often does). The HUMINT online players are rude bastards. They're online for one reason, and that's to be mean. I've played Quake III Arena on the DC several times and the players aren't smart, they're just agressive. Run around a corner and they're stupid enough to run right around that corner after you. Spinfire a rocket into any corner you pass and you'll nail the dummy. They're extremely simple-minded games, basically kiddie games to go with the teenaged target audience they're made for, and I don't think that beating up on foul-mouthed kiddies is a lot of fun. I play games at least 40 hours per week, I have 25 years of experience at it, and the kiddies don't stand the chance of a glass of water at a chili cook-off of beating me. All I get is cussing from 'em, not gameplay. If I want people to cuss at me, I can go to the homeless shelter with a "Vote Republican" T-shirt on. I don't need to log on to a room full of kiddies playing on their daddy's machine to get disrespect. Screw that.

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>>Lazy doesn't have anything to do with it. When I put a game on, that's >>MY TIME, and I'm paying to be entertained. It should be a done deal. > If you're looking for such passive entertainment, might I suggest TV? You > don't have to do anything at all. No messing around with those inconvenient > consoles, with their hard-to-use gamepads and the game discs you have to > make sure you put in right-side-up. You can just sit back, turn the brain > off, and vegetate for as much of YOUR TIME as you want. Sounds like it's > much more your speed.

I don't watch TV much at all. I've watched two episodes of Seinfeld. I've never watched any episode of "Friends" or "Ally McBeal" and I only know they existed because they make the news. I've never watched one single "Survivor", and the only reason I ever watched "Walker" was because I was senior-sitting my dying (now dead) great aunt and she wanted to watch it with me. I thought it sucked. Phony-baloney plastic-banana formulaic white-hat vs. black-hat spewage. It's fun when it's interactive, but it's not worth watching.

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>>If an oil change went the way PC games usually do, it'd be like this: >> >>Customer: I'm here to pick up my car. You changed the oil, right? >>Mechanic: Well, we drained it but we didn't know which brand to use. >>Customer: If I'd have cared, I'd have told you in the first place. >>Mechanic: Nope, you have to pick a favorite! We need you to pick! >>Customer: Oh, for the love of Pete! Valvoline, OKAY? Does THAT work? >>Mechanic: This is a Pennzoil shop. We don't have Valvoline. >>Customer: Then put Pennzoil into the car! I DON'T CARE! DO IT! >>Mechanic: Thank you! Your car will be ready in another hour. >>Customer: <seriously thinks about busting a cap in mechanic ass> >> >>I'm paying OTHER PEOPLE to do something for me when I buy a game. >>Either they can do the job, or they can't. If I have to lift so >>much as one finger to help them, then they can't, they're incompetent, >>and I don't want to do business with them at all. > > > Are you really this incapable of distinguishing between a product and a > service? When you take your car to the mechanic for an oil change, they > have YOUR vehicle right there in front of them. They know exactly what > year, make and model it is, and have references (if needed) to tell them > exactly what filter to use, where everything is located, etc.

No, they don't. I drive a 1984 Ford Bronco II. Almost every mechanic asks if it's a 4WD. ALL 1984 Ford Bronco II's are 4WD. It wasn't an option. You'll never see a 2WD 1984 Bronco II. There weren't any made. The question is therefore IGNORANT. I was driving a 1964 Corvair in New Jersey, and (in case most don't know) New Jersey outlaws self-service gas pumps. That's right, you have to have some MORON pump your gas for you. So I pull into a service station in a very cherry 1964 red Corvair convertible (top down) and a kid comes running out to fill it up. The idiot walks around the car TWICE looking for the gas cap and then asks me where it is. Driver's side fender, about 2 feet from the guy you're asking, moron. Worse, it was about 3 feet from the PUMP! Gee, silly me, parks with the gas cap next to the pump. Stupid kid. And New Jersey law says that I have to let him touch a classic car? That's the kind of crapola that makes me hate the east coast.

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> Of course > they can do it without your intervention. If you really want to draw a > parallel between oil changes and game development, it'd be more accurate to > suppose you were to call the mechanic several months before the oil change > was to be performed and tell him you wanted some work done on an > unidentified vehicle that may have two, three or four wheels, might be > gas-powered, electric or a hybrid, and might have been manufactured in any > country on the planet to any standard (or none at all) in existence. Then > you'd expect him to provide you with incredibly detailed instructions, > perfect to the letter, on exactly how this was to be accomplished, including > how many times to turn what kind of wrench and what size coveralls you > should wear while doing the work.

No, that doesn't fly. Namco had Soul Calibur available at DC's launch. Namco had Tekken Tag Tourney available at PS2's launch. The recently released game "Perfect Dark" for the GC had been in development nearly three years, LONG before anyone knew what a GC was.

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>> > One of those gnat-sized attention spanned folk who can only grasp > > instant > >>>gratification without any effort expended. >> >>No effort expended? MY BUTT! How do *you* get $50 without any effort? >>That money is EARNED, and anybody who wants some of it has to do some >>EARNING too. I paid my dues in cold hard cash. I'm the boss, it works >>for me. It's a machine, it's MY machine, and I'm supposed to be the one >>receiving pleasure. > With this kind of belligerence, it's no surprise you only receive pleasure > from machines :)

I'm a misanthrope. I base my life on the premise that everyone I meet is stupider than me. It works well, because most of the time I'm right.

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>>>Text-based or 6 yr old games only on Linux. Let's see... Unreal >>>Tournament, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2003, SimCity 3000, SiN, Soldier >>>of Fortune, Railroad Tycoon 2, Mind Rover, Deus Ex... Yeah, sure buddy. >> >>Name a game I actually want to play. >>Something like Swingerz Golf for the Gamecube? > > > Irrelevant. Your personal taste in games has nothing to do with what's at > issue here, which is the suitability of the PC platform for gameplay. Knock > down straw men all you want, but it won't prove anything.

Oh, is that it? Cool, I can do that. Explain to me why I see adapters to use PS2 controllers on PC USB ports, but there isn't any such beast going the other way around? PC gaming sucks. They want controllers? They rob consoles with adaptors. PC gaming blows. They want games? They rob consoles with emulators. To heck with PC gaming! All roads of piracy lead through PC's and PC Gamers are the ENEMY, they are the cause of everything bad concerning gaming. This is war, and consoles are beating PC patootie every single day. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> Are you really this incapable of distinguishing between a product and a >> service? When you take your car to the mechanic for an oil change, they >> have YOUR vehicle right there in front of them. They know exactly what >> year, make and model it is, and have references (if needed) to tell them >> exactly what filter to use, where everything is located, etc. > >No, they don't. I drive a 1984 Ford Bronco II. Almost every mechanic >asks if it's a 4WD. ALL 1984 Ford Bronco II's are 4WD. It wasn't an >option. You'll never see a 2WD 1984 Bronco II. There weren't any made. >The question is therefore IGNORANT.

So do you expect every mechanic to know the features/options(or lack thereof) of every car? I'd guess that even most OWNERS of said vehicle don't know that, unless they happened to ask for a 2WD version when they BOUGHT it... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Charles Doane <[email hidden]> annouced proudly in message news:<[email hidden]>... > <snip>...I play games at least > 40 hours per week, I have 25 years of experience at it,... You really are quite sad, aren't you? So sad, that in your 30s (at least) you're actually chuffed to be spending more time than most kids playing video games. And than a few more hours a week in a newsgroup arguing over weather one genre of games is inferior to another, or babbling on about piracy. OCT

Corporal Crumbcake wrote: >> [I]t's no surprise you only receive pleasure from machines. > I'm a misanthrope. yeah, a misanthrope who supposedly plays in golf foursomes on the weekend. > I base my life on the premise that everyone I meet is stupider > than me. that's ignorance, not misanthropy. > It works well, because most of the time I'm right. i bet your breath reeks of cheetos and steak'ums this very minute.

While this thread was slightly amusing at first, it's now gotten to be nothing but a waste of bandwidth, so could you all please stop cross posting and leave each NG to handle their own "misanthropes", whatever that may be....a fancier word for misfits perhaps ? Thx in advance Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Ah... It is quite obvious that you are talking out of your ass. If you haven't bought a PC game since Duke Nukem 3D then you are not exactly up to speed on PC gaming. PC gaming changed with the advant of an OS call Win95. You should try it! Hmmm... Wondering if you posted with your tongue in your cheek? "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > callsignviper wrote: > > "Scott�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:sUZk9.1323$p03.754@fe01... > > > >>"Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>news:MjZk9.329189$[email hidden]... > >> > >>>It may lack the depth and length of $40-50 PC > >>> shooters, but at $20 it was a well priced value. > > >> Actually, Serious Sam for the Xbox is both versions of the game. > > > (snip) > > > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (XBox) = $49.99 with ETA 12 > > November 2002. > > > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam Gold (PC) = $29.99 with ETA 21

January > > 2003. > > > > From Babbage's website: Serious Sam (Original(PC)) = $6.99 availablenow. > > > > > > Why would I pay $30 OR $50 when I can buy BOTH games (PC version) forunder > > $22 ($6.99 (SS1) + $14.99 (SS2))? Actually I think I bought bothversions > > when they were on sale for $9.99 each (several months apart, of course)so > > it was slightly less than $20. > > > > Makes me wonder about the mentality of the average console game buyer.Have > > they no concept of bargain hunting and/or simply refusing to payexorbitant

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> > prices for products? > > Makes me wonder about the PC gamers, myself. Have they no concept of the > value of game time? The reason that PC games are cheaper (in some cases, > not in all as PSX games are often in the $10 range now) is that PC games > are largely a do-it-yourself proposition. The $20 you save isn't any > bargain if it takes an hour to get the game working. The PC gamer does a > whole lot of the work himself; work which console games take care of. > > The last game I bought for XBox was Sega GT 2002, along with the Mad Catz > MC2 wheel setup (nice wheel, btw). From the time I got home with the > goods to the time I was playing the game with the wheel working perfectly > was just about 10 minutes flat. You can't do that sort of thing on a > PC at all. If you put a wheel on a PC then you get to install the

drivers, > play 20 questions with "Install Shield", and then you get to do the same > thing with the new game. Moreover, there's no guarantee that the gamewill > even work with that peripheral after you've spent the better part of an > hour jumping through hoops. > > I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was DukeNukem3D,

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> and after fighting with that game for days trying to tweak every setting > just right, something snapped. I bit my lip, tasted blood and promptly > smashed my keyboard (I hated that keyboard anyway). I will not ever fight > to make my entertainment work again. I want entertainment that works for > ME, not the other way around. > > Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. > > Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! > Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! > Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. > Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and > they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. > > It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing > home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your > $20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy. > > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

All you are proving with your rant is that you are clueless as to what you write, lazy and dumb. I suggest you steer clear of those new fangled contracptions call vcr's. Those have more then 6 buttons too. "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > magnulus wrote: > > "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > >>Every other form of entertainment gives immediate gratification. > >> > >>Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! > >>Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! > >>Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. > >>Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and > >>they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. > > > So what you are saying is that console gamers are lazy and/or

retarded?

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> > No, I'm saying that they want to have FUN! You've heard of that, right? > FUN? Where you enjoy what you're doing? Have a pleasant experience? > There's NOTHING pleasant about fighting with a setup program that can't > even detect what freakin' sound card you have. Why in the heck should > I have to know that I'm running a Soundblaster 32 with an IRQ of 7 and > an IO address of 220? I WANT TO PLAY A GAME. I'm on my free time, I'm > looking for something to do, and playing "how well do you know your PC's > config" is not my idea of a game. I WANT TO PLAY A GAME! > > No, I don't want to fill out a survey. > No, I don't want to register online. > No, I don't want to install Adobe Acrobat reader. > No, I don't want to receive e-mail offers. > No, I don't want to get a trial subscription to a sucky magazine. > > I WANT TO PLAY THE DAMNED GAME! Is that too much to ask? I want to > take the disc, put it in the drive, and PLAY. It's such a simple > request. Consoles have been doing that for over a decade now, but > can PC's do that? NO! They insist on pissing me off. > > >>It's PC gamers who are the nutcases paying for recreation and bringing > >>home aggravation. I don't call that any bargain at all. You save your > >>$20, PC gamers. You'll be needing that money for therapy. > > > I can't remember the last time I had any big problems with my computer > > getting games to run. It must have been over a year ago. All that

stuff

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> > you are brining up is old, tired arguements. > > That's total B.S. > I just bought a new monitor (plug and pray, hehehe) for my new PC. The > MONITOR (Viewsonic) came with an install disc. This is SEVEN YEARS after > Windows 95 promised Plug-and-Play, and EASY things like VGA monitors still > come with driver discs. Even worse, the "autorun" didn't even work. > Apparently Windows XP is such an upgrade that silly things like

autobooting > discs are a thing of the past. I had to look at the autorun file to see > which program the damned install wanted to run, run it, and then I had to > know that Windows XP is basically a sequel to Windows 2000 which isbasically > a sequel to Windows NT. Otherwise I wouldn't have known to grab thedrivers > for NT. THAT SUCKS. Plus it had to restart the machine. That'sPATHETIC. > > I'm not technologically illiterate. Far from it, I'm a telecommunications > field technician and I'm used to fighting with broken machines all thetime > (and winning), but I get PAID to do that because it's work. I don't wantto

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> do that when I'm trying to PLAY. > > If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth beans. > It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running a Hitachi > SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this > stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do > anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? I

sure > don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so > bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to theroad.

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> It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's under > the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hIyl9.5705$[email hidden]...

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> > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wTkl9.45$[email hidden]... > > When and IF the console games reach the quality of current PC games with > all > > of the required accessories, as in a KB, internet connection, > wheels/pedals, > > hotas's, etc etc then maybe I'll plunk down my $150. Till then there > isn't > > any comparison of the two platforms. > > > > Consoles already have keyboards, but I can say from experience they are > not that useful like on a PC. You can get racing wheels for a console,

too. > I'm not a big racing fan, but I have Gran Turismo 3 for my PS2 that Ibought > on sale and I like playing it. I just use a gamepad. > The graphics are great, but they are a lot more jaggy than what I'd get ona

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> PC and sometimes my eyes get tired of looking at the murky image. > > No HOTAS on a console, yet. I can't see a sim with that steep of a > learning curve ever selling to a mass market audience. Playstation had a > port of Gunship 2000 that was great, though, and the gamepad had alot of > shift functions built in. > > > When you can play Nascar 2002 on your Sega Saturn in under a minute then > > come talk to us :-) > > > > You can run it on PS2, and I assume there's an XBox version (I rented

it, > wasn't real thrilled with PS2 version, too much jaggies). The PC versionis > pretty much the same game, BTW. Ah... no you can't! Papy does not have a console game out at this time. You consolers have lotsa smarts don't yah?

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > I'm not technologically illiterate. Far from it, I'm a > telecommunications > > > field technician and I'm used to fighting with broken machines all the > > time > > > (and winning), but I get PAID to do that because it's work. I don't > want > > to > > > do that when I'm trying to PLAY. > > > > > > If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth > beans. > > > It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running a > Hitachi > > > SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this > > > stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do > > > anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? I > > sure > > > don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so > > > bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to the > > road. > > > It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what's > under > > > the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. > > > > > > -- > > > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > > > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) > > > > > > > > > >

Charles, Shut the hell up man. You are absolutley clueless. Your arguements had validity about 7 years ago. And even those supposed "facts" are wrong. Just quite down while your behind. "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Sam Altersitz wrote: > > On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 06:58:55 -0700, Charles Doane > > <[email hidden]> attempted to sound witty, but instead came out > > sounding like this... : > > > > > >>That's total B.S. > >>I just bought a new monitor (plug and pray, hehehe) for my new PC. The > >>MONITOR (Viewsonic) came with an install disc. This is SEVEN YEARS

after > >>Windows 95 promised Plug-and-Play, and EASY things like VGA monitorsstill > >>come with driver discs. Even worse, the "autorun" didn't even work. > >>Apparently Windows XP is such an upgrade that silly things likeautobooting > >>discs are a thing of the past. I had to look at the autorun file to see > >>which program the damned install wanted to run, run it, and then I hadto > >>know that Windows XP is basically a sequel to Windows 2000 which isbasically > >>a sequel to Windows NT. Otherwise I wouldn't have known to grab thedrivers > >>for NT. THAT SUCKS. Plus it had to restart the machine. That'sPATHETIC.

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> > > > > > Most monitors are pllug and pray, moron. However, if you have drivers > > for them ,then you can use your video card and the monitor to their > > best abilities. Without the drivers, you often can't set the refresh > > rate on monitors above 60 hz, for example. > > What monitor made in the last decade can't pull off better than 60 Hz? > I think default has been 75 Hz since back in the Windows 3.1 days. > If the PC would PICK A VIDEO CHIPSET and stay with it the PC would be > a lot more viable of an option for gaming, but as it is, it's horrible. > > The power PC gamer goes and buys himself a $300 video card, the latest > and greatest, and then what? He finds that there's not but two or three > games on the planet that support the thing. So he's screwed. > > The budget PC gamer goes and buys himself a $50 video card, one which > will run most of the games, and then he sees something like Doom III > coming down the pike and his video card won't support that. So he's > screwed too. > > No matter which route a PC gamer takes, he's gonna get shafted. > > >>If a console game worked like that the console wouldn't sell worth

beans. > >>It's unbelievable. I can put a game into my Sega Saturn running aHitachi > >>SH2 at 28 Mhz and be playing in less than a minute. I can't get this > >>stupid AthlonXP2000+ (supposedly better than a Pentium 4 2Ghz) to do > >>anything new that quickly, and it's SUPPOSED to be 70 times faster? Isure > >>don't see it. PC's are junkpiles next to consoles, because they're so > >>bogged down by all their crapola that they don't get the rubber to theroad. > >>It's like driving a Ferrari on metal rims. It doesn't matter what'sunder

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> >>the hood if the power ain't getting to the user. > > > > > > Well, most of the bogging down in PCs comes from one place: Windows > > and its bloatware. Add in that multiple other programs like to set > > themselves up to auto run as soon as your PC starts, and you're losing > > resources (not even taking into account how horrible Windows is at > > managing resources to begin with). > > I've always believed that to be the main reason there's never been a > good fighter on a PC. All of the software drivers cause far too much > latency to ever hope to play any game with 100 millisecond or less > timing windows. > > > Try using a different OS and see if the same bog down issues happen. > > Granted, you won't find as much program support on the other OSes, but > > 9 out of 10 times you will find that the programs run smoother, and > > the entire PC runs smoother all the time without G%^ damn Explorer > > crashing every 5 seconds. > > I wouldn't mind doing that except for the fact that practically all > documents I work with tend to be in a Microsoft format (ie. DOC or > MDB) and I need to view those. > > > It really doesn't matter how fast the PC is when it has Windows > > running on it. Hell, as son as I get my Linux box up and running, I > > won't ever need to use this Windows one ever again, unless a game I > > want to play doesn't have Linux drivers. > > Which probably means that all of your old games are junk and you won't > be able to play them. Which is par for the course on a PC. I don't > know why people even bother claiming that PC's are backwards compatible. > They really aren't, and the more specialized the app the less likely it > will be supported in the future. Games are pretty specialized apps when > it comes right down to it, so they're among the least likely to work in > the future. > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

You are extremely dim Charles. Please stick with your consoles. Your head may explode otherwise you dolt! "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Bob Perez wrote: > > "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > <snip history of problems running PC games> > > > >>I quit PC gaming long ago. The last PC game I ever bought was Duke > > > > Nukem3D, > > > > LOL well no wonder all you can recount are horror stories of playing PC > > games, ROFL! You might want to consider waking up to the 21st century

and

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> > trying out the 8 or 9 versions of Windows that have come out since then. > > Life is pretty good on the PC gaming side now. Sheesh. (rolls eyes) > > I just got to play with Windows XP. On this machine, I mean the one I'm > posting on. It sucks. I still haven't fixed my Logitech trackball (dumb > box thinks it's a PS/2 mouse), it took me great effort to get the drivers > working for my "plug and play" monitor, and I had to install my scanner. > > This is 2002. Windows 95 was supposed to fix all of that. Yeah, there > has been 8 or 9 versions of Windows since then, and I've used most of > 'em. There's not supposed to BE any installation anymore. So why does > everything still come with installation discs? It's pathetic. > > I can honestly say that I've never had a console game ask me if I wanted > a full or a custom install. They tend to say "Press Start". > I've never had a console say "new hardware detected, would you like to > install drivers for it?". That is bar none the stupidest damned question > ever. It's not there for the LOOKS, you dumb freaking box! For a console > to match that stupidity, it would have to say "new game detected, would > you like to play it?". > > PLAY IT! JUST GO AHEAD AND PLAY IT! There's nothing that pushes my > buttons like stupidity. If it's THERE, it's because I put it THERE, > so I want it THERE. Is that logic too hard to follow? Why can't a > PC get that? Consoles do. My Xbox doesn't ask about new hardware when > I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. > > I hate PC's. Inefficient pieces of crap get beat all to hell by > consoles with less than a quarter of their power. > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

Yeah and the X-box is not installing or caching! So whats your point? "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:71Wl9.86172$[email hidden]... > > "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:p9Gl9.105035$[email hidden]... > > Really? I haven't seen any cache to a great degree, I wish they would. > > At least I haven't noticed any cached data left behind after the gamewas

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> > removed. > > > > I haven't noticed any impact the number of blocks free either. Like for > > ripping CDs into it. > > > > A review of DOA3 I read mentioned it caches a large amount of data to

the > hard disk the first time a player runs the game. > > My point is it's generally much better to store data on a hard disk overa

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> CD or DVD-ROM- access times are much shorter. And on a PC, this is called > "installing". > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_vyl9.5679$[email hidden]... > > : > > : "Bob Perez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > : news:[email hidden]... > > : > > : > Who says there's not supposed to be any installation? What mythology > is > > : > this? > > : > > : The irony is, of course, the XBox cache's data to the hard disk, in > some > > : cases large amounts. The difference between this and "installation"

is

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> > : purely semantics. > > : > > : > > : > > > > > > >

Wayne Bradley wrote: > Ah... It is quite obvious that you are talking out of your ass. If you > haven't bought a PC game since Duke Nukem 3D then you are not exactly up to > speed on PC gaming. PC gaming changed with the advant of an OS call Win95. > You should try it! > > Hmmm... Wondering if you posted with your tongue in your cheek? Hey there, you PC guru! Why don't you check my headers? I'm not forging them, that's really Windows NT 5.1, aka Windows XP. I keep up with OSes, I just don't do it for pleasure. I've already got Service Pack 1 installed, but I can't say that it was fun doing it. I HATE PC's! I hate being asked where to go when I'm the passenger. I've installed every single Windows product made this side of Windows 2.0, and not one of them have been fun. So far this machine has been one seriously stable platform. Heck, I can't honestly say I've ever seen a Windows XP crash. Considering all I've done to this machine, that's saying something. I think a lot of the credit goes to not playing any damned games. My Lara (a self-built PC after my Pentium90 smoked) worked GREAT after I fired her from gaming. She's still going strong and she does a great job running on Windows98SE. That machine was never down for one single day in five years and she's still running. For a PC, that's pretty impressive. My 1978 Atari VCS has a better track record, but I digress. The point is, games screw up PC's. I'm pretty much the maintenance guy for my Mom's 400Mhz Celeron with 128 MB of RAM (I built that machine) and EVERY TIME she calls me for help fixing the stupid box it's because she downloaded a game or bought some cheapie collection at CompUSA. I *never* have to fix Lara, and Lara is WAY inferior to a Celeron. But I don't *game* on Lara, either. Therefore, PC instability is a function of trying to play games on them. Anybody wanting a stable PC will fire it from gaming. I know it worked for me. Call this Windows XP with an AMDXP2000+ fired from gaming. I've got better platforms, ones that won't crash when they see a game. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Can you please stop cross posting this rambling to the rec.autos.simulators group. Its nothing more than noise.

"Wayne Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:anagr6$h54$[email hidden]... > Yeah and the X-box is not installing or caching! So whats your point? > But it does cache data to the hard disk. Or do you think you need 10 gigabytes just to store game saves?

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> > "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:71Wl9.86172$[email hidden]... > > > > "PositiveG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:p9Gl9.105035$[email hidden]... > > > Really? I haven't seen any cache to a great degree, I wish they

would. > > > At least I haven't noticed any cached data left behind after the game > was > > > removed. > > > > > > I haven't noticed any impact the number of blocks free either. Likefor

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> > > ripping CDs into it. > > > > > > > A review of DOA3 I read mentioned it caches a large amount of data to > the > > hard disk the first time a player runs the game. > > > > My point is it's generally much better to store data on a hard disk

over > a > > CD or DVD-ROM- access times are much shorter. And on a PC, this iscalled

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> > "installing". > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:_vyl9.5679$[email hidden]... > > > : > > > : "Bob Perez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > : news:[email hidden]... > > > : > > > : > Who says there's not supposed to be any installation? What

mythology > > is > > > : > this? > > > : > > > : The irony is, of course, the XBox cache's data to the hard disk,in

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> > some > > > : cases large amounts. The difference between this and "installation" > is > > > : purely semantics. > > > : > > > : > > > : > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Charles Doane wrote: <SNIP>

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> No, I'm saying that they want to have FUN! You've heard of that, right? > FUN? Where you enjoy what you're doing? Have a pleasant experience? > There's NOTHING pleasant about fighting with a setup program that can't > even detect what freakin' sound card you have. Why in the heck should > I have to know that I'm running a Soundblaster 32 with an IRQ of 7 and > an IO address of 220? I WANT TO PLAY A GAME. I'm on my free time, I'm > looking for something to do, and playing "how well do you know your PC's > config" is not my idea of a game. I WANT TO PLAY A GAME! >

Let me guess: You have just crawled out from beneath the rock under which you have been sleeping for most of the last decade. <SNIP> >

Karl Forsberg wrote:

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> Charles Doane wrote: > <SNIP> > >>No, I'm saying that they want to have FUN! You've heard of that, right? >>FUN? Where you enjoy what you're doing? Have a pleasant experience? >>There's NOTHING pleasant about fighting with a setup program that can't >>even detect what freakin' sound card you have. Why in the heck should >>I have to know that I'm running a Soundblaster 32 with an IRQ of 7 and >>an IO address of 220? I WANT TO PLAY A GAME. I'm on my free time, I'm >>looking for something to do, and playing "how well do you know your PC's >>config" is not my idea of a game. I WANT TO PLAY A GAME! >> > > > Let me guess: You have just crawled out from beneath the rock under > which you have been sleeping for most of the last decade.

HEY man! Don't be dissin' sleeping under rocks until you've tried it! A nice warm boulder retains the heat of the day all night long, and there's nothing that can match it for firmness. Rocks are natural, they have no cholesterol and they do not stain! They even make good pets! So don't delay, make a rock yours today. They're a limited natural resource you cannot take for granite. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

That's it, I'm done with this thread. This guy is obviously just a troll. My five-year-old nephew is capable of more cogent discourse than Charlie is. <Plonk> Chris "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <snip>

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> > Charlie-boy, you're such an idiot. Let's set aside the fact that you're > > thinking of a different game, since UT2003 isn't even out yet. Let's > > instead focus on your logic and your spectacular display of ignorance > > regarding your subject. > > It's a sequel to a game I don't want to play even with it sitting on my > shelf in my house. > > > First of all, if you never wanted to play the game, why did you buy it? > > Personally, I find my money is better spent if I save it for games that

I

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> > want to play. > > I don't care about money. That's not a worry of mine. I just wanted a > complete collection of Seganet games. That was a Seganet game, so in the > interests of my complete collection, I had to have it. I don't want to > play it, though. >

<snip> > The box is extremely ugly, and I hate FPS games. The only one that ever > came close to changing my mind was HALO, but that's not a typical FPS game > by a long shot. Somebody actually thought that one through and there'snot > quite as much stupidity to the "plot" (aka excuse to blast everything). <snip> > I *HATE* the FPS genre. > The BOTS are idiots. The AI sucks. A 12-year-old can beat them (oftendoes). > The HUMINT online players are rude bastards. They're online for onereason, > and that's to be mean. I've played Quake III Arena on the DC severaltimes

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> and the players aren't smart, they're just agressive. Run around a corner > and they're stupid enough to run right around that corner after you. > Spinfire a rocket into any corner you pass and you'll nail the dummy. > > They're extremely simple-minded games, basically kiddie games to go with > the teenaged target audience they're made for, and I don't think that > beating up on foul-mouthed kiddies is a lot of fun. I play games at least > 40 hours per week, I have 25 years of experience at it, and the kiddies > don't stand the chance of a glass of water at a chili cook-off of beating > me. All I get is cussing from 'em, not gameplay. If I want people to > cuss at me, I can go to the homeless shelter with a "Vote Republican" > T-shirt on. I don't need to log on to a room full of kiddies playing on > their daddy's machine to get disrespect. Screw that.

<snip>

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> No, they don't. I drive a 1984 Ford Bronco II. Almost every mechanic > asks if it's a 4WD. ALL 1984 Ford Bronco II's are 4WD. It wasn't an > option. You'll never see a 2WD 1984 Bronco II. There weren't any made. > The question is therefore IGNORANT. > > I was driving a 1964 Corvair in New Jersey, and (in case most don't know) > New Jersey outlaws self-service gas pumps. That's right, you have to have > some MORON pump your gas for you. So I pull into a service station in a > very cherry 1964 red Corvair convertible (top down) and a kid comes

running > out to fill it up. The idiot walks around the car TWICE looking for the > gas cap and then asks me where it is. Driver's side fender, about 2 feet > from the guy you're asking, moron. Worse, it was about 3 feet from the > PUMP! Gee, silly me, parks with the gas cap next to the pump. Stupidkid. > And New Jersey law says that I have to let him touch a classic car? > That's the kind of crapola that makes me hate the east coast. ><snip> > No, that doesn't fly. Namco had Soul Calibur available at DC's launch. > Namco had Tekken Tag Tourney available at PS2's launch. The recently > released game "Perfect Dark" for the GC had been in development nearly > three years, LONG before anyone knew what a GC was. <snip> > I'm a misanthrope. I base my life on the premise that everyone I meet is > stupider than me. It works well, because most of the time I'm right. ><snip> > > Irrelevant. Your personal taste in games has nothing to do with what'sat > > issue here, which is the suitability of the PC platform for gameplay.Knock > > down straw men all you want, but it won't prove anything. > > Oh, is that it? Cool, I can do that. > > Explain to me why I see adapters to use PS2 controllers on PC USB ports,but > there isn't any such beast going the other way around? > PC gaming sucks. They want controllers? They rob consoles with adaptors. > PC gaming blows. They want games? They rob consoles with emulators. > > To heck with PC gaming! All roads of piracy lead through PC's and PCGamers

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> are the ENEMY, they are the cause of everything bad concerning gaming. > This is war, and consoles are beating PC patootie every single day. > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002

"Wayne Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:anafa0$gd2$[email hidden]... > Ah... It is quite obvious that you are talking out of your ass. If you > haven't bought a PC game since Duke Nukem 3D then you are not exactly upto > speed on PC gaming. PC gaming changed with the advant of an OS callWin95. > You should try it! > > Hmmm... Wondering if you posted with your tongue in your cheek? He did post with his tongue in his cheek. It's unavoidable for someone whose head is so far up his ass. Charles certainly gives new meaning to the phrase tongue-in-cheek. :0) -- Joe M.

Chris von Seggern wrote: > That's it, I'm done with this thread. This guy is obviously just a troll. > My five-year-old nephew is capable of more cogent discourse than Charlie is. > <Plonk> You're the idiot who can't even trim a post you're not even responding to. Good riddance, as you never had a good thing to say anyway. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

"Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > >They're a limited > natural resource you cannot take for granite. > LOL. Ohhh, you stupid stupid fucking idiot troll..... Now you've gone and made me laugh.... ROFLMAO !!

LOL. Ohhh, you stupid stupid ***ing idiot troll..... Now you've gone and made me laugh.... ROFLMAO !!

>On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:23:27 -0700, Charles Doane ><[email hidden]> wrote: >>I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. Try printing out your resume on an X-box. Try faxing from your X-box. Try cropping digital photos on your X-box. Try any one of a billion things that computers do, besides games. Due to the complexity, the computer will never be a perfect solution for gaming. But along with some disadvantages for gaming (lack of consistent hardware) all the incredible flexibility that a computer has also gives it several advantages over a console, yes even for gaming. I'm into flight sims, and I use a Thrustmaster Cougar and CH Pro rudder pedals. Try plugging those items into your X-box and custom programming your preferred buttons.

>On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:23:27 -0700, Charles Doane >>I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. Try printing out your resume on an X-box. Try faxing from your X-box. Try cropping digital photos on your X-box. Try any one of a billion things that computers do, besides games. Due to the complexity, the computer will never be a perfect solution for ***. But along with some disadvantages for *** (lack of consistent hardware) all the incredible flexibility that a computer has also gives it several advantages over a console, yes even for ***. I'm into flight sims, and I use a Thrustmaster Cougar and CH Pro rudder pedals. Try plugging those items into your X-box and custom programming your preferred buttons.

Vern Pellerin wrote:

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>>On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:23:27 -0700, Charles Doane >><[email hidden]> wrote: > > >>>I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. >> > > Try printing out your resume on an X-box. Try faxing from your X-box. Try > cropping digital photos on your X-box. Try any one of a billion things that > computers do, besides games. Due to the complexity, the computer will never > be a perfect solution for gaming. But along with some disadvantages for > gaming (lack of consistent hardware) all the incredible flexibility that a > computer has also gives it several advantages over a console, yes even for > gaming. I'm into flight sims, and I use a Thrustmaster Cougar and CH > Pro rudder pedals. Try plugging those items into your X-box and custom > programming your preferred buttons.

I've got a CH Products flightstick working on the Xbox, and it's custom programmable to boot. I use the Innovation X-connection and the CH Products Gamestick for the PSX, which works just fine. I can run that stick on the PSX, DC, PS2, Saturn and Xbox. It's possible to get flexibility in console controllers if you're savvy. The PC is a general purpose machine. That's what it's for, and that's what it does. Games are special purpose apps which do benefit from special equipment. A keyboard and mouse were never meant to take the punishment of a gaming session, and they often don't fare well as a result. PC's weren't ever designed for games, and they've never done exceptionally well at them unless there is a bunch of special-purpose widgets thrown into it which cost as much (or more) than a console would in the first place. -- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Charles Doane wrote:

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> Vern Pellerin wrote: >>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:23:27 -0700, Charles Doane >>> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >>>> I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. >>> >> >> Try printing out your resume on an X-box. Try faxing from your >> X-box. Try cropping digital photos on your X-box. Try any one of a >> billion things that computers do, besides games. Due to the >> complexity, the computer will never be a perfect solution for >> gaming. But along with some disadvantages for gaming (lack of >> consistent hardware) all the incredible flexibility that a computer >> has also gives it several advantages over a console, yes even for >> gaming. I'm into flight sims, and I use a Thrustmaster Cougar and >> CH Pro rudder pedals. Try plugging those items into your X-box and >> custom programming your preferred buttons. > > I've got a CH Products flightstick working on the Xbox, and it's > custom programmable to boot. I use the Innovation X-connection and > the CH Products Gamestick for the PSX, which works just fine. I can > run that stick on the PSX, DC, PS2, Saturn and Xbox. It's possible > to get flexibility in console controllers if you're savvy. > > The PC is a general purpose machine. That's what it's for, and > that's what it does. Games are special purpose apps which do benefit > from special equipment. A keyboard and mouse were never meant to > take the punishment of a gaming session, and they often don't fare > well as a result. PC's weren't ever designed for games, and they've > never done exceptionally well at them unless there is a bunch of > special-purpose widgets thrown into it which cost as much (or more) > than a console would in the first place.

Pc's kick the consoles butts when it comes to gaming. Much more depth than a console! Don Burnette

Charles Doane wrote:

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> Vern Pellerin wrote: >>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:23:27 -0700, Charles Doane >>> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >>>> I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. >>> >> >> Try printing out your resume on an X-box. Try faxing from your >> X-box. Try cropping digital photos on your X-box. Try any one of a >> billion things that computers do, besides games. Due to the >> complexity, the computer will never be a perfect solution for >> gaming. But along with some disadvantages for gaming (lack of >> consistent hardware) all the incredible flexibility that a computer >> has also gives it several advantages over a console, yes even for >> gaming. I'm into flight sims, and I use a Thrustmaster Cougar and >> CH Pro rudder pedals. Try plugging those items into your X-box and >> custom programming your preferred buttons. > > I've got a CH Products flightstick working on the Xbox, and it's > custom programmable to boot. I use the Innovation X-connection and > the CH Products Gamestick for the PSX, which works just fine. I can > run that stick on the PSX, DC, PS2, Saturn and Xbox. It's possible > to get flexibility in console controllers if you're savvy. > > The PC is a general purpose machine. That's what it's for, and > that's what it does. Games are special purpose apps which do benefit > from special equipment. A keyboard and mouse were never meant to > take the punishment of a gaming session, and they often don't fare > well as a result. PC's weren't ever designed for games, and they've > never done exceptionally well at them unless there is a bunch of > special-purpose widgets thrown into it which cost as much (or more) > than a console would in the first place.

Pc's kick the consoles butts when it comes to gaming. Much more depth than a console! Don Burnette

Charles Doane wrote:

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> Vern Pellerin wrote: >>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:23:27 -0700, Charles Doane >>> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >>>> I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. >>> >> >> Try printing out your resume on an X-box. Try faxing from your >> X-box. Try cropping digital photos on your X-box. Try any one of a >> billion things that computers do, besides games. Due to the >> complexity, the computer will never be a perfect solution for >> gaming. But along with some disadvantages for gaming (lack of >> consistent hardware) all the incredible flexibility that a computer >> has also gives it several advantages over a console, yes even for >> gaming. I'm into flight sims, and I use a Thrustmaster Cougar and >> CH Pro rudder pedals. Try plugging those items into your X-box and >> custom programming your preferred buttons. > > I've got a CH Products flightstick working on the Xbox, and it's > custom programmable to boot. I use the Innovation X-connection and > the CH Products Gamestick for the PSX, which works just fine. I can > run that stick on the PSX, DC, PS2, Saturn and Xbox. It's possible > to get flexibility in console controllers if you're savvy. > > The PC is a general purpose machine. That's what it's for, and > that's what it does. Games are special purpose apps which do benefit > from special equipment. A keyboard and mouse were never meant to > take the punishment of a gaming session, and they often don't fare > well as a result. PC's weren't ever designed for games, and they've > never done exceptionally well at them unless there is a bunch of > special-purpose widgets thrown into it which cost as much (or more) > than a console would in the first place.

Pc's kick the consoles butts when it comes to gaming. Much more depth than a console! Don Burnette

Charles Doane wrote:

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> Vern Pellerin wrote: >>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:23:27 -0700, Charles Doane >>> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >>>> I plug in the joystick for a few rounds of DOA3. It just does it. >>> >> >> Try printing out your resume on an X-box. Try faxing from your >> X-box. Try cropping digital photos on your X-box. Try any one of a >> billion things that computers do, besides games. Due to the >> complexity, the computer will never be a perfect solution for >> gaming. But along with some disadvantages for gaming (lack of >> consistent hardware) all the incredible flexibility that a computer >> has also gives it several advantages over a console, yes even for >> gaming. I'm into flight sims, and I use a Thrustmaster Cougar and >> CH Pro rudder pedals. Try plugging those items into your X-box and >> custom programming your preferred buttons. > > I've got a CH Products flightstick working on the Xbox, and it's > custom programmable to boot. I use the Innovation X-connection and > the CH Products Gamestick for the PSX, which works just fine. I can > run that stick on the PSX, DC, PS2, Saturn and Xbox. It's possible > to get flexibility in console controllers if you're savvy. > > The PC is a general purpose machine. That's what it's for, and > that's what it does. Games are special purpose apps which do benefit > from special equipment. A keyboard and mouse were never meant to > take the punishment of a gaming session, and they often don't fare > well as a result. PC's weren't ever designed for games, and they've > never done exceptionally well at them unless there is a bunch of > special-purpose widgets thrown into it which cost as much (or more) > than a console would in the first place.

Pc's kick the consoles butts when it comes to gaming. Much more depth than a console! Don Burnette

Dang, Sorry for the mulitple posts, don't know what happened there. Don Burnette wrote:

Well.............. you know, damn complicated PCs. "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n2tm9.353282$[email hidden]...

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> Dang, > > Sorry for the mulitple posts, don't know what happened there. > > > > Don Burnette wrote: > >

In article <C4dl9.7$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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>> Would anyone put up with a music CD that ran Install Shield? HECK NO! >> Would anyone put up with a movie DVD that installed drivers? HECK NO! >> Most folks don't even like renting videotapes that haven't been rewound. >> Console games are part of the same line of reasoning. Put them in and >> they work just like they're supposed to, no muss, no fuss, no grief. >> > > So what you are saying is that console gamers are lazy and/or retarded?

I don't know I'd say that...I would say that he's saying that he's lazy and/or retarded. -Tim

Chris Townsend wrote: > Well.............. you know, damn complicated PCs. I think that was the "more depth" that he was talking about. PC gamers are simpletons. Go into a video game store, and look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" could have housed a family of four. Homeless people dig them out of dumpsters to make condominiums out of. The Air Force wants them to dump on Iraq to scare the heck out of Saddam Hussein with. NASA is looking at them as cheap disposable launch pads for the Space Shuttle missions. They're HUGE! The only other form of entertaiment left coming in boxes anywhere near that size are porn videotapes, so there you go. That's the mentality of people who think that bigger=better.

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> "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:n2tm9.353282$[email hidden]... > >>Dang, >> >>Sorry for the mulitple posts, don't know what happened there. >> >> >> >>Don Burnette wrote: >> >> > > >

-- Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made)

Charles, please stop for your own good. You are not funny. Perhaps someone was being kind that *one time* when a chuckle was heard contemporaneous to one of your alleged quips. Perhaps it was only a coincidence rather than kindness/pity. Either way, a misleading signal was sent which now causes you to behave under the mistaken presumption that you are humorous. You deserve better, you deserve the truth. The person from your past who chuckled doesn't know the far reaching implications of that one fateful lapse in judgment and/or concentration. It has caused this ng to be the latest victim of what I'm certain is a masochistic habit of attempted humor. Who thought one innocent chuckle could have caused an avalanche of horror and distress. I feel it is my duty to end the delusion and stop the madness. Hear this loud and clear: YOU ARE NOT FUNNY . . . AT ALL. NO, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT. Don't thank me. You'd do the same if roles were reversed. -- Joe M. "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Chris Townsend wrote: > > Well.............. you know, damn complicated PCs. > > I think that was the "more depth" that he was talking about. > > PC gamers are simpletons. Go into a video game store, and > look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, > most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" > could have housed a family of four. Homeless people dig them > out of dumpsters to make condominiums out of. The Air Force > wants them to dump on Iraq to scare the heck out of Saddam > Hussein with. NASA is looking at them as cheap disposable > launch pads for the Space Shuttle missions. They're HUGE! > The only other form of entertaiment left coming in boxes > anywhere near that size are porn videotapes, so there you go. > That's the mentality of people who think that bigger=better. > > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:n2tm9.353282$[email hidden]... > > > >>Dang, > >> > >>Sorry for the mulitple posts, don't know what happened there. > >> > >> > >> > >>Don Burnette wrote: > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

http://www.gamespy.com/fargo/april02/pcconsole/ Read this :D Ash http://www.siroccoracing.com

Ashley McConnell wrote: > http://www.gamespy.com/fargo/april02/pcconsole/ > > Read this :D LMAO!!! We all know which category old Charles Doane fits into. <g> -- Fester None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.hermes-press.com/police_state.htm

"Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote... > > http://www.gamespy.com/fargo/april02/pcconsole/ > > Read this :D ROTFLOL - That is GREAT!!! - Dave

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> wrote: >I've got a CH Products flightstick working on the Xbox, and it's custom >programmable to boot. I use the Innovation X-connection and the CH Products >Gamestick for the PSX, which works just fine. I can run that stick on the >PSX, DC, PS2, Saturn and Xbox. It's possible to get flexibility in console >controllers if you're savvy. Wow, so you got a joystick to work. Yippie! >The PC is a general purpose machine. That's what it's for, and that's what >it does Yes, so what? I agree, that the computer can do a billion things as a "general purpose machine". You're point is that it's weak for games because it's a general purpose machine. My point is that it's good for games PLUS everything else, BECAUSE it's a general purpose machine. . Games are special purpose apps which do benefit from special >equipment. A keyboard and mouse were never meant to take the punishment of >a gaming session, and they often don't fare well as a result. PC's weren't >ever designed for games, and they've never done exceptionally well at them >unless there is a bunch of special-purpose widgets thrown into it which cost >as much (or more) than a console would in the first place. YES, games do benefit from special purpose equipment. Again I agree. However, there are some types of games that you will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER see on X-box. For example . . . Falcon 4! I love flight sims. You won't ever see any HARDCORE flight sims on console systems. At most, you will see watered down, extremely simplified flight sims that appeal to ages 12 and up. Cosole games are designed for people who don't have the attention span or ability to learn the extremely complex flight sims with 50 million commands that have to be used and often memorized. Cosole game systems are great for people who want FAST, SIMPLE games. But they suck for people who want real, hardcore flight sims. Also, there is a much greater diversity of games and types of games available for the PC, becuase the PC can be used as a general purpose tool to CREATE new games, by ANYONE who learns programming all over the world. Consoles on the other hand, are mostly limited to special programmers who are hired by those big companies to create games on their system. So you have less creativity with console games than with PC games.

In article <[email hidden]>, Charles Doane <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >Chris Townsend wrote: >> Well.............. you know, damn complicated PCs. > >I think that was the "more depth" that he was talking about. > >PC gamers are simpletons. Go into a video game store, and >look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, >most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" >could have housed a family of four. Homeless people dig them >out of dumpsters to make condominiums out of. The Air Force >wants them to dump on Iraq to scare the heck out of Saddam >Hussein with. NASA is looking at them as cheap disposable >launch pads for the Space Shuttle missions. They're HUGE! >The only other form of entertaiment left coming in boxes >anywhere near that size are porn videotapes, so there you go. >That's the mentality of people who think that bigger=better.

Hahaha. You're psycho Charlie Brown. One big box. So what? There's tons of smaller boxes on most other PC gaming products. You're avoiding the main argument by diverting attention to one meaningless distraction. There's immeasurable diversity in PC games. But there's limited, target audience games for the console. Console games are mostly designed to be "no brainer" games. PC games have everything under the sun, in spite of the fact that the big store sellers are FPS (just like consoles). As for the variety of PC games, I'm not just talking about what you buy in the store . . . there's a billion unique, creative, non main-stream games that can be downloaded off the internet. A mind bending variety of games that you will never be able to get from those kiddie Nintendo consoles.

In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ashley McConnell wrote: >> http://www.gamespy.com/fargo/april02/pcconsole/ >> >> Read this :D > > >LMAO!!! We all know which category old Charles Doane fits into. <g>

Yep. It all boils down to choice. With PC games, you can play the brain-dead twitch action games AND/OR you can play the complex deep thinking games. With console games, you have NO CHOICE what-so-ever. You can ONLY play the brain-dead twitch reaction arcade games. So when Charles Doane argues against the PC, he is arguing that he wants to limit everyones freedom and choice. He wants people to ONLY play the limited brain-dead, non-thinking twitch action games that HE plays, with unlimited ammo and all the cheats you can handle, because not having cheats means you have to use precious brain-power. He's saving up all his brain power for the grave, where it will really be needed when he's trying to out-think the worms coming through his coffin. Think of Charles Doane's extremely restrictive view of gaming as, the Taliban of gaming.

Charles "Muppet" Doane <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3D9AF27E.2060907 > look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, > most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" > could have housed a family of four. My RTCW came in an Amaray case. cheers John

JM wrote:

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> > Charles "Muppet" Doane <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:3D9AF27E.2060907 > > look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, > > most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" > > could have housed a family of four. > > My RTCW came in an Amaray case.

What does this have to do with anything John ? In the US it's probably sold in a big box and to some people the US *is* the world, you can't argue with people like that, not to mention that the argument is utterly silly in the first place I know we've had some silly threads going on here in RAS from time to time and I thought some of the guys in here was nuts, some of these console guys make DGF seem like a reasonable fella :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

> > look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, > > most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" > > could have housed a family of four. > My RTCW came in an Amaray case. What does this have to do with anything John ? In the US it's probably sold in a big box and to some people the US *is* the world, you can't argue with people like that, not to mention that the argument is utterly silly in the first place I know we've had some silly threads going on here in RAS from time to time and I thought some of the guys in here was nuts, some of these console guys make DGF seem like a reasonable fella :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

AFAIK, they all did. "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Charles "Muppet" Doane <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:3D9AF27E.2060907 > > look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, > > most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" > > could have housed a family of four. > > My RTCW came in an Amaray case. > > cheers > John >

I figured you would jump on that post in just the wrong way that you did. You have certainly done a wonderful job proving yourself an idiot. "Charles Doane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Chris Townsend wrote: > > Well.............. you know, damn complicated PCs. > > I think that was the "more depth" that he was talking about. > > PC gamers are simpletons. Go into a video game store, and > look at who's still being sold games with the biggest, silliest, > most outlandish boxes. The box for "Return to Wolfenstein" > could have housed a family of four. Homeless people dig them > out of dumpsters to make condominiums out of. The Air Force > wants them to dump on Iraq to scare the heck out of Saddam > Hussein with. NASA is looking at them as cheap disposable > launch pads for the Space Shuttle missions. They're HUGE! > The only other form of entertaiment left coming in boxes > anywhere near that size are porn videotapes, so there you go. > That's the mentality of people who think that bigger=better. > > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:n2tm9.353282$[email hidden]... > > > >>Dang, > >> > >>Sorry for the mulitple posts, don't know what happened there. > >> > >> > >> > >>Don Burnette wrote: > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Oh, oh. Here come those crazy aliens again. Help me, Elllleeot! > Help me get home! (Atari 2600 E.T. manual, worst game ever made) >

"Vern Pellerin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PmGm9.12504$[email hidden]... > Cosole games are designed for people who don't have the attention span or > ability to learn the extremely complex flight sims with 50 millioncommands > that have to be used and often memorized. > That's more than a little insulting. 99 percent of the public out there has zero interest in a game with that kind of learning curve. Count me as one of them. Not because I'm too stupid, but because it's not worth my time.

> Then again, many PC games are so advanced that they come with a thick > manual. Console games never do. >That's less and less so, unfortunately. These days a decent manual is a really pleasant surprise in a PC title. The days of the Janes series' legendary spiral-bound tomes are long over, I think. Manual writing and printing seems to be just one more expense publishers cut in the interests of reducing costs. Sad but possibly unavoidable. Chris --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002

In article <xrHm9.12559$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Vern Pellerin) writes: >So when Charles Doane argues against the PC, he is arguing that he wants to >limit everyones freedom and choice. He wants people to ONLY play the limited > >brain-dead, non-thinking twitch action games that HE plays, Truthfully, I don't think he said that. He hasn't tried to limit anyone. He only said that's all HE wants to play, and he thinks *we're* crazy for not following the One True Way... We all think *he's* crazy, but that's another story.<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Dameon <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Wed, 02 Oct 2002 19:05:01 GMT, [email hidden] (Vern >Pellerin) wrote: > > >>With console games, you have NO CHOICE what-so-ever. You can ONLY play >>the brain-dead twitch reaction arcade games. > >To be fair, the console systems do have some deep thinking strategy >games available. "Romance of the Three Kingdoms VII" being one of the >more recent console games that would fit into that category.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

In article <8ZNm9.9423$[email hidden]>, "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Vern Pellerin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:PmGm9.12504$[email hidden]... >> Cosole games are designed for people who don't have the attention span or >> ability to learn the extremely complex flight sims with 50 million >commands >> that have to be used and often memorized. >> > > That's more than a little insulting. 99 percent of the public out there >has zero interest in a game with that kind of learning curve. Count me as >one of them. Not because I'm too stupid, but because it's not worth my >time.

Sorry. You're right. Most people don't have the time to learn all of it. Pilots who fly for a living know most of the instruments . . . so they just need all the keyboard commands to simulate the switches and dashboard button pushing. Non pilots who really love flight sims just go out of their way to learn it in spite of the steep curve.

"Chris von Seggern" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<FzSm9.20984$FO4.3843@sccrnsc03>...

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> > Then again, many PC games are so advanced that they come with a thick > > manual. Console games never do. > > > That's less and less so, unfortunately. These days a decent manual is a > really pleasant surprise in a PC title. The days of the Janes series' > legendary spiral-bound tomes are long over, I think. Manual writing and > printing seems to be just one more expense publishers cut in the interests > of reducing costs. Sad but possibly unavoidable. > > Chris > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002

I've been following the threads in this post and find the arguments interesting. Since this is the most recent thread I thought I'd step in with my own 2 cents at this point. Firstly: You're not an idiot and retarded if you don't like PC games and do like console games. Nor are you somehow superior, more sophisticated, more intelligent, sexier etc.. if you despise console games. What you are, is probably a male somewhere between 27 - 50 years old, employed in a technical field -maybe the computer industry itself- who's first computer ran 16 bit Windows 3.x or an earlier OS / computer: C64, Apple II, etc... In other words you're a member of that wondeful group known in Marketing circles as the 'early adopters'. I think the simulation gaming genres are more attractive to early adopters than any other market group. To back this up there was a demographic survey a few years ago at www.combatsim.com. I hope I recall the results correctly, but about roughly 2/3rds who responded were men employed in the information technologies fields. That's why I think it's so hard for many of the posters here to see the attraction of consoles' ease of use and the weaknesses of the PC's need for configuration. Trouble-shooting is probably just 2nd nature to many posters in this thread because they've been contending with PCs for a number of years. I admit freely that I'm one of this groups numbers. God I love cracking my computer case open and poking around and just being a member of what some arrogant Exec at 3Dfx -remember them- referred to as the "lunatic fringe." It's also in my interest and to my advantage to do this since it keeps me up to date with leading edge technolgy that's relevant to my job. But I own a gamecube console too and along with my children enjoy all those 'kiddie' games released for it. Despite my love for battlinng with PC hardware, I can always appreciate that when my kids want to play a game I can just pop the minidisk in and the game will be up in running in a surprisingly, quick time. Secondly: Some game genres are definately in danger on the PC. By this I mean they're not in danger of dissapearing but in danger of being moved exclusively to consoles; RPGs, action and adventure games come to mind. There are some genres that will probably only work on PCs - flight and auto sims- and some that will work better -Turn based and RT strategy- but we may find that all other genres eventually move to consoles. To put this into perspective you just have to remember that Microsofts' original answer to the Playstation, N64 and Sega Saturn was DirectX. And give them credit, at the close of the 90's they managed to bring Win9x/DirectX to a significantly, strong position in the gaming market. But when Microsoft released the XBOX the lesser role of DirectX has more or less been decided. The XBOX was to some extent a capitulation by Microsoft that DirectX or any other Windows API couldn't develop the ease of use that consoles have. The Sim genres that have been decreasing in releases, are probably more due with the lifestyle changes of the early adopters than the draw of the console market. Sims and to some extent adventure games will probably continue on the PC but will be continually released less frequently by smaller indie developers or publishers. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as quality and realism will probably benefit. Thirdly: The PC lifecycle is too short for the general public. For a technical product to be universally marketable and accepted it usually needs a life cycle of at least 5 years. This is where consoles shine as they are developed with a planned 5 year lifecycle. There are some posts in this thread that WinXP has eased PC gaming greatly. But step back in time 5 years prior to XP and you'll recall that Windows 98 hadn't even been released yet! This makes PC gaming a bit too fast paced and costly for the majority of the gaming public; how many serious PC Gamers are using Video or sound cards more than 3 years old? The short lifecycle for PC hardware and the multitude of possible configurations, makes it very difficult to ensure quality for PC games. There's really no way for a QA team to test on all possible hardware configurations; thus games that won't run on the occasional system without a lot of tweaking. Just my thoughts, flame on! Donovan Fly'in high in the NW skies.

Now THAT was funny! BB Ashley McConnell wrote: > > http://www.gamespy.com/fargo/april02/pcconsole/

Now THAT was funny! BB > http://www.gamespy.com/fargo/april02/pcconsole/

Dameon wrote: > Hey, I thought your name is "Barton Simpson Brown"? That's what comes of thinking... BB

Dameon wrote: > The masses are stupid. And that's a fact. Thus spake the masses.

Dameon wrote: > > Trying to hob-knob with us commoners, eh? Depends on how you define "hob-knob" -- doesn't sound too sanitary to me.

Dameon wrote: > > hob-knob(sp?) = schmooze (mingle) > You changed your name from Barton Spencer Brown to simply Bart Brown > so you could appear as the everyday man and not that toffee nosed > bastard you used to be. As I explained about 2 years ago, when some people seemed to have a difficult time believing that parents would be so unfeeling (imagine how *I* felt!) as to name their only son and heir "Barton" (a Scots/Gaelic word meaning "field" or "farmer" -- my father's occupation) "Spencer" (my Grandfather's name) "Brown" (no choice), the only reason that "Barton Spencer Brown" showed up in my email messages was that's the way the original configuration of my integrated browser renedered it, taking my full name from my billing information. I didn't even notice it was there until people -- you among them, I'm sure -- had some irrational reaction to a person with three names, the first two actually being so foppish as to require two syllables each. Now I know that "Billy Bob", "Wanda Lou", and "Laquita Chenille" are accepted monikers in the Great Democracy, but apparently anything that smacks of the "landed gentry" (say, "Fortescue Cholmondeley Smythe III") is considered clear evidence of aristocratic, monarchical, and anti-democracy leanings. My father's ancestors colonized the Stonington, CT area under Governor Roger Winthrop in the early 1630s. Finding the rocks there far too easy to farm, they moved to upstate New York, where they found bigger and more satisfying rocks, and moved -- generation to generation -- into greater and greater poverty, my father's father being the last to own his own farm. My mother's ancestry has two distinct branches, one from Ireland (an 18th century example managed to get out of the peat bogs by signing on as a mercenary with the British forces during the American Revolution) the other from Scotland, where my mother's mother, born in Dundee but raised to the age of four at the Bridge o' Weir orphanage in Glasgow (after the death of her destitute mother and desertion by her father), was put on a ship bound to Canada, all alone with no belongings but her family bible with her name written in it -- the only reason she knew her own name -- and indentured to a childless family in the British south of the province of Quebec. Her first husband, my mother's father, was another poverty-stricken and potato-less refugee from Ireland. So, Dameon (and if that's your real name, I wouldn't go around picking on the names of others; if it's not, grow some balls and use your real name, no matter how rummy it may be), you can see that my origins are several manure-covered steps below humble. I was raised on various tenant farms by parents for whom the Great Depression (soon to be reintroduced by George W Bush) was a terrifying memory of hunger and deprivation. I remember my first pair of shoes. I remember being humiliated in grade school because I couldn't afford a school lunch, and going hungry for days at a stretch. Yet somehow, 54 years later, here I am -- goofy name and all -- married to an incredible woman who is also a brilliant research scientist. I was the very first person in my family, for as far back as any reckoning can be made, to have gone to college, and I did it at the ripe old age of 39. Not only that, I graduated Summa Cum Laude, with a GPA of 9.735. I'm no great success, no media star (if such a word has any meaning in these benighted times), and certainly not very well off; but somehow I've made it up to now with that silly name. So give it a rest, OK? Barton Spencer Brown PS: it's "hobnob." Should you ever wish to know the correct form, meaning, antonym, synonym, and/or etymology of a word, may I suggest: www.bartleby.com as the best reference source for all things verbal. NTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: hob�nobbed, hob�nob�bing, hob�nobs To associate familiarly: hobnobs with the executives. ETYMOLOGY: From the phrase (drink) hob or nob, (toast) one another alternately, from obsolete and dialectal hab nab, have or have not : probably Middle English habbe, have; see have + Middle English nabbe (contraction of ne habbe, have not ( Old English ne, not; see not + habbe, have). WORD HISTORY: Hobnobbing with our social betters can be a hit-or-miss proposition, a fact that has an etymological justification. The verb hobnob originally meant �to drink together� and occurred as a varying phrase, hob or nob, hob-a-nob, or hob and nob, the first of which is recorded in 1763. This phrasal form reflects the origins of the verb in similar phrases that were used when two people toasted each other. The phrases were probably so used because hob is a variant of hab and nob of nab, which are probably forms of have and its negative. In Middle English, for example, one finds the forms habbe, �to have,� and nabbe, �not to have.� Hab or nab, or simply hab nab, thus meant �get or lose, hit or miss,� and the variant hob-nob also meant �hit or miss.� Used in the drinking phrase, hob or nob probably meant �give or take�; from a drinking situation hob nob spread to other forms of chumminess.

Sorry to interrupt the pissing match but great post Bart. Very well done. -- Joe M. "Bart Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Dameon wrote: > > > > hob-knob(sp?) = schmooze (mingle) > > You changed your name from Barton Spencer Brown to simply Bart Brown > > so you could appear as the everyday man and not that toffee nosed > > bastard you used to be. > > As I explained about 2 years ago, when some people seemed to have a > difficult time believing that parents would be so unfeeling (imagine how > *I* felt!) as to name their only son and heir "Barton" (a Scots/Gaelic > word meaning "field" or "farmer" -- my father's occupation) "Spencer" > (my Grandfather's name) "Brown" (no choice), the only reason that > "Barton Spencer Brown" showed up in my email messages was that's the way > the original configuration of my integrated browser renedered it, taking > my full name from my billing information. I didn't even notice it was > there until people -- you among them, I'm sure -- had some irrational > reaction to a person with three names, the first two actually being so > foppish as to require two syllables each. Now I know that "Billy Bob", > "Wanda Lou", and "Laquita Chenille" are accepted monikers in the Great > Democracy, but apparently anything that smacks of the "landed gentry" > (say, "Fortescue Cholmondeley Smythe III") is considered clear evidence > of aristocratic, monarchical, and anti-democracy leanings. > <snipped>

Dameon wrote:

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> > On Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:51:05 GMT, Bart Brown <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >So, Dameon (and if that's your real name, I wouldn't go around picking > >on the names of others; if it's not, grow some balls and use your real > >name, no matter how rummy it may be), > > My real name is Dameon, Dameon Omen VI to be exact. > > <snip ancestal history and life story, was interesting though> > > >So give it a rest, OK? > > Geez, Bart, I'm only funning with you. Guess not. > > >Barton Spencer Brown > > That's more like it. > > Your old pal - Nos

ROFL, knew there was something familiar about that bastard Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"Joe M." wrote: > > Sorry to interrupt the pissing match but great post Bart. Very well done. Totally agree, if Bart could race as well as he can write we'd all be in trouble :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Dameon wrote: > > My real name is Dameon, Dameon Omen VI to be exact. > Your old pal - Nos Don't give me that crap -- I *know* your real name is Fortescue Cholmondeley Smythe III. Now you owe Nosferatu an apology, too. Toffee-nosed. That hurt, man. BB

Goy Larsen wrote: > > Totally agree, if Bart could race as well as he can write we'd all be in trouble :-) Well, I think you're all in trouble anyway -- grown men (and wimmin!) diddling about with pretend race cars and making embarrassing exhaust noises with your lips -- but you're right: I can't race worth warm spit. Funny... I can drive a real car fairly well -- no fatal accidents yet -- but when I get in front of a monitor and the road starts twisting, I just get a massive headache and have to lay down for the rest of the day. BB

"Dameon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:18:25 -0400, "Joe M." <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Sorry to interrupt the pissing match but great post Bart. Very welldone. > > It wasn't worth the hour of his life it must have taken him to type it > up though. :-) You've made one miscalculation Nos, you're using *your* time scale. Good old Bart probably threw that response together in less than 8 minutes. I'm guessing it would have taken you weeks to craft such an intelligent response. Hell, I'm still waiting to read your *first*. :0) -- Joe M.

"Joe M." wrote:

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> > "Dameon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:18:25 -0400, "Joe M." <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >Sorry to interrupt the pissing match but great post Bart. Very well > done. > > > > It wasn't worth the hour of his life it must have taken him to type it > > up though. :-) > > You've made one miscalculation Nos, you're using *your* time scale. Good > old Bart probably threw that response together in less than 8 minutes. I'm > guessing it would have taken you weeks to craft such an intelligent > response. Hell, I'm still waiting to read your *first*. :0)

Ouch......and we eagerly await Nos' reply Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Bart Brown wrote:

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> > Goy Larsen wrote: > > > > Totally agree, if Bart could race as well as he can write we'd all be in trouble :-) > > Well, I think you're all in trouble anyway -- grown men (and wimmin!) > diddling about with pretend race cars and making embarrassing exhaust > noises with your lips -- but you're right: I can't race worth warm spit. > Funny... I can drive a real car fairly well -- no fatal accidents yet -- > but when I get in front of a monitor and the road starts twisting, I > just get a massive headache and have to lay down for the rest of the day.

Tru the Drag Racing sims then, about as exciting as watching my car rust if you ask me, but you might enjoy it :-), don't even need a wheel, a keyboard will do just fine and you do seem to master the keyboard pretty well :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Ruud van Gaal wrote: > > The SuSE installation I read about a couple of weeks ago involved > taking out the HD, live-swapping it in an existing Intel machine, then > installing SuSE, tweak some bits, and hanging the HD back in the > X-Box. > I believe no HW mods were necessary. And now it's even easier it seems http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27487.html I need to find out what all this Linux stuff is some day :-), and yes, I have 3 Mandrake 9.0 ISO's sitting on my HD here, just need to find the time and energy to start.....again Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

As Uncle Goy observed, I may be slow with a wheel, but I'm hell on a keyboard... BB Dameon wrote: > > It wasn't worth the hour of his life it must have taken him to type it > up though. :-)

"Dameon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 00:29:03 -0400, "Joe M." <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > >You've made one miscalculation Nos, you're using *your* time scale. Good > >old Bart probably threw that response together in less than 8 minutes.I'm

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> >guessing it would have taken you weeks to craft such an intelligent > >response. Hell, I'm still waiting to read your *first*. :0) > > Here it is: > > FU > > (and it only took .5 sec)

FU2 (.48 seconds - a new Usenet record) Cheers you ornery Canadian bastage. :-) -- Joe Marques

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:38:02 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >Ruud van Gaal wrote: >> >> The SuSE installation I read about a couple of weeks ago involved >> taking out the HD, live-swapping it in an existing Intel machine, then >> installing SuSE, tweak some bits, and hanging the HD back in the >> X-Box. >> I believe no HW mods were necessary. > >And now it's even easier it seems > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27487.html

Cool, I wonder if Racer now runs on an X-Box! ;-) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Gaal wrote: > > Cool, I wonder if Racer now runs on an X-Box! ;-) You buying one Ruud ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Fortescue Cholmondeley Smythe III wrote: > you haven't worked an honest day in your life. The only part you got right... > See you for tea at 4:00pm then? Ta-ta. No Ta-tas here -- you're thinking of Kitten Natividad. BB

The only part you got right... No Ta-tas here -- you're thinking of Kitten Natividad. BB

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:27:20 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >Ruud van Gaal wrote: >> >> Cool, I wonder if Racer now runs on an X-Box! ;-) > >You buying one Ruud ? :-)

I already have a PC and a PS2, the X-Box is just a waste of money. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Gaal wrote:

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> > On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:27:20 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > > > > >Ruud van Gaal wrote: > >> > >> Cool, I wonder if Racer now runs on an X-Box! ;-) > > > >You buying one Ruud ? :-) > > I already have a PC and a PS2, the X-Box is just a waste of money.

Prolly going to get one myself though, I need a new DVD player as mine is on the verge of blowing up, so it's either that or a PS2 and I've yet to see a PS2 game I'd "desperately" want to play, same goes for XboX but at least the XboX is sort of a "boxed PC" :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 08:32:20 -0400, Fortescue Cholmondeley Smythe III <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:18:48 GMT, [email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) >wrote: > > >>I already have a PC and a PS2, the X-Box is just a waste of money. > >And the PS2 isn't? We have a PS2 (I didn't pay for it, thank god) and >I think it's mostly crap. That Grand Turisimo game people are always >harping about looks good but is a POS when it comes to a racing >simulation.

It looks good, and is still an inspiration (wrt graphics) for my Racer game (that why I got the PS2). And, I can play it on my couch in front of the TV. Race simming I do behind my PC, just a quick hack & slash race I do on the PS2. Actually, I mostly run GTA3 these days. I do have Stuntman as well, but that's so frustrating it's barely fun. It depends a bit on what your priorities in cash spending are. I find the PS2 worth my money, even though the games are all targeted for a bit of quick entertainment (I'd never dream of playing The Sims on a PS2). Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 14:58:29 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >Ruud van Gaal wrote: >> >> On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:27:20 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >Ruud van Gaal wrote: >> >> >> >> Cool, I wonder if Racer now runs on an X-Box! ;-) >> > >> >You buying one Ruud ? :-) >> >> I already have a PC and a PS2, the X-Box is just a waste of money. > >Prolly going to get one myself though, I need a new DVD player as mine >is on the verge of blowing up, so it's either that or a PS2 and I've yet >to see a PS2 game I'd "desperately" want to play, same goes for XboX but >at least the XboX is sort of a "boxed PC" :-)

Yeah well, a slow boxed PC by now. I never use the PS2 for DVD playing, although I have the remote. It's too cumbersome to get into a menu, then to have to click the DVD. Yes I'm lazy in that way. ;-) I just want to throw the disc in, and PLAY! That's why I also never play CD's in my DVD; it takes forever to recognize. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Gaal wrote: > > Yeah well, a slow boxed PC by now. Yes, but it's still something I can relate to....:-), besides, I could always install Linux on it > I never use the PS2 for DVD playing, although I have the remote. It's > too cumbersome to get into a menu, then to have to click the DVD. Yes > I'm lazy in that way. ;-) > > I just want to throw the disc in, and PLAY! That's why I also never > play CD's in my DVD; it takes forever to recognize. Good point I guess, buy a another cheap DVD player and to hell with the consoles....worth thinking about I guess Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

> We use the PS2 as a DVD player. Yes, it's a bit slow but I don't rent > movies every day so it's a minor inconvenience really. I've heard the > PS2 has problems with some movies (haven't come across any myself) so > you may be better off with the X-Box as a DVD player. I've got an Xbox and the DVD picture quality leaves a lot to be desired...

Both consoles absolutely suck compared to a nice progressive scan player. Understandable given the cost difference but still an important consideration if you like movies. The amazing picture of progressive scan player is a fine compliment to a digital TV. -- Joe M. "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ao2pg0$ifioo$[email hidden]... > > We use the PS2 as a DVD player. Yes, it's a bit slow but I don't rent > > movies every day so it's a minor inconvenience really. I've heard the > > PS2 has problems with some movies (haven't come across any myself) so > > you may be better off with the X-Box as a DVD player. > > I've got an Xbox and the DVD picture quality leaves a lot to be desired... > >

Damien Smith wrote:

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> > > We use the PS2 as a DVD player. Yes, it's a bit slow but I don't rent > > movies every day so it's a minor inconvenience really. I've heard the > > PS2 has problems with some movies (haven't come across any myself) so > > you may be better off with the X-Box as a DVD player. > > I've got an Xbox and the DVD picture quality leaves a lot to be desired...

So does my TV :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"Joe M." wrote: > > Both consoles absolutely suck compared to a nice progressive scan player. > Understandable given the cost difference but still an important > consideration if you like movies. The amazing picture of progressive scan > player is a fine compliment to a digital TV. Ok......but I assume that these 200 dollar DVD players you can get in chain stores aren't progressive scan ? I'm not a movie buff and I have a TV that was decent when it was new, 5 years ago :-) so I'm not investing a lot of money in this, for me it's either a cheap DVD player or a console.....would you say that the consoles' picture quality is a lot worse than a 200 dollar DVD player ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Dameon wrote:

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> > On Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:58:19 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Good point I guess, buy a another cheap DVD player and to hell with the > >consoles....worth thinking about I guess > > We use the PS2 as a DVD player. Yes, it's a bit slow but I don't rent > movies every day so it's a minor inconvenience really. I've heard the > PS2 has problems with some movies (haven't come across any myself) so > you may be better off with the X-Box as a DVD player.

Stop confusing me, I was all set on a new, cheap DVD player......:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

How can you tell if you have a progressive scan player? I have heard this mentioned before, but I do not see any thing about progressive scan in the setup options in my dvd player. Don Burnette Joe M. wrote:

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> Both consoles absolutely suck compared to a nice progressive scan > player. Understandable given the cost difference but still an > important consideration if you like movies. The amazing picture of > progressive scan player is a fine compliment to a digital TV. > > > "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ao2pg0$ifioo$[email hidden]... >>> We use the PS2 as a DVD player. Yes, it's a bit slow but I don't >>> rent movies every day so it's a minor inconvenience really. I've >>> heard the PS2 has problems with some movies (haven't come across >>> any myself) so you may be better off with the X-Box as a DVD player. >> >> I've got an Xbox and the DVD picture quality leaves a lot to be >> desired...

Dameon wrote:

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> > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:14:37 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > > >Stop confusing me, I was all set on a new, cheap DVD player......:-) > > Yea, but a console is more fun than a standalone DVD player and only > costs about $100.00 more than a run of the mill DVD player.

That was my initial argument for getting one as well, but then people start talking about poor picture quality and even though I'm not a movie buff, this thing will be used mainly for playing DVD's with the occasional mindless action game thrown in every now and then, I don't *need* an XboX or a PS-2 as every game I really feel like playing is available on the PC, but if the picture quality of these consoles match that of a 200 dollar DVD player, then I'll be getting a console Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Dameon wrote:

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> > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:13:45 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I'm not a movie buff and I have a TV that was decent when it was new, 5 > >years ago :-) so I'm not investing a lot of money in this, for me it's > >either a cheap DVD player or a console.....would you say that the > >consoles' picture quality is a lot worse than a 200 dollar DVD player ? > > Not IMO. We use the SVGA connector though so that makes a little > difference. But unless you have an HDTV I doubt you will see a big > dif.

Ok......we're now back in favor of getting a console...:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Dameon <[email hidden]> writes:

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> On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:13:45 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > >I'm not a movie buff and I have a TV that was decent when it was new, 5 > >years ago :-) so I'm not investing a lot of money in this, for me it's > >either a cheap DVD player or a console.....would you say that the > >consoles' picture quality is a lot worse than a 200 dollar DVD player ? > > Not IMO. We use the SVGA connector though so that makes a little > difference. But unless you have an HDTV I doubt you will see a big > dif.

Remember that there are no such thing as HDTV in Europe yet, and we also have the RGB connection which for mysterious reasons lack on american tv's. The big question is if the X-box can put out DVD picture in RGB ? The PS2 can't. -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

Olav Malmin wrote:

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> > Dameon <[email hidden]> writes: > > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:13:45 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > > > >I'm not a movie buff and I have a TV that was decent when it was new, 5 > > >years ago :-) so I'm not investing a lot of money in this, for me it's > > >either a cheap DVD player or a console.....would you say that the > > >consoles' picture quality is a lot worse than a 200 dollar DVD player ? > > > > Not IMO. We use the SVGA connector though so that makes a little > > difference. But unless you have an HDTV I doubt you will see a big > > dif. > > Remember that there are no such thing as HDTV in Europe yet, and we > also have the RGB connection which for mysterious reasons lack on > american tv's. The big question is if the X-box can put out DVD > picture in RGB ? The PS2 can't.

Ah hah, the plot thickens Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: > > We use the PS2 as a DVD player. Yes, it's a bit slow but I don't rent > > movies every day so it's a minor inconvenience really. I've heard the > > PS2 has problems with some movies (haven't come across any myself) so > > you may be better off with the X-Box as a DVD player. > > I've got an Xbox and the DVD picture quality leaves a lot to be desired... it's the same story with the PS2 DVD-player. it does have a bunch of really good games, though. -- Gunnar Cougar#02748 #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 gitaren er en sjingke

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > "Joe M." wrote: > > > > Both consoles absolutely suck compared to a nice progressive scanplayer. > > Understandable given the cost difference but still an important > > consideration if you like movies. The amazing picture of progressivescan

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> > player is a fine compliment to a digital TV. > > Ok......but I assume that these 200 dollar DVD players you can get in > chain stores aren't progressive scan ? > > I'm not a movie buff and I have a TV that was decent when it was new, 5 > years ago :-) so I'm not investing a lot of money in this, for me it's > either a cheap DVD player or a console.....would you say that the > consoles' picture quality is a lot worse than a 200 dollar DVD player ? >

You're fine with a console. You'll only see the true difference on a digital set with component cables. Using composite video or s-video I think a console is an ideal choice since you have the option to play the occasional game. -- Joe M.

"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > How can you tell if you have a progressive scan player? > I have heard this mentioned before, but I do not see any thing about > progressive scan in the setup options in my dvd player. > > Don Burnette > if you bought recently and paid closer to 1000 dollars than 200 then you have progressive scan. If you got on the dvd train early, you don't have it. dave henrie

"Joe M." wrote: > > You're fine with a console. You'll only see the true difference on a > digital set with component cables. Using composite video or s-video I think > a console is an ideal choice since you have the option to play the > occasional game. Ok, thx mate :-), so I guess an XboX it is then Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Dameon wrote:

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> > I can only speak from my experience. We had a cheap DVD standalone > player and then switched to PS2 and I can not see a difference in the > picture quality - honestly.This on a standard JVC 28" TV. But then I > never compared them side by side. The only place here I see superior > DVD was on my 22" Nec computer monitor, but I'm now using an LCD > monitor and the shadows and blacks on LCD suck compared to a good CRT. > Ask to see Xbox DVD in action at the store and then look at a > comaparatively priced DVD standalone and decide for yourself. Use same > quality TV for comaprison though.

Ok, thx again for the input guys, I'm leaning towards an XboX Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:42:12 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >Olav Malmin wrote: >> Remember that there are no such thing as HDTV in Europe yet, and we >> also have the RGB connection which for mysterious reasons lack on >> american tv's. The big question is if the X-box can put out DVD >> picture in RGB ? The PS2 can't. > >Ah hah, the plot thickens

My cheap DVD player (200 euro's one year ago) can though. Just to add to the confusion. ;-) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Gaal wrote:

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> > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:42:12 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > > > > >Olav Malmin wrote: > >> Remember that there are no such thing as HDTV in Europe yet, and we > >> also have the RGB connection which for mysterious reasons lack on > >> american tv's. The big question is if the X-box can put out DVD > >> picture in RGB ? The PS2 can't. > > > >Ah hah, the plot thickens > > My cheap DVD player (200 euro's one year ago) can though. > Just to add to the confusion. ;-)

So does my 3 year old DVD player, with a 2 year warranty, which is about to blow up, it's been a nice experience overall though, I've got it hooked up to a Creative DTT 2500 surround system, cheep and cheerful home theater :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> How can you tell if you have a progressive scan player? >> I have heard this mentioned before, but I do not see any thing about >> progressive scan in the setup options in my dvd player. >> >> Don Burnette >> > if you bought recently and paid closer to 1000 dollars than 200 > then you have progressive scan. If you got on the dvd train early, > you don't have it. > > dave henrie

Well, I bought about a year and a half ago, and nowhere near 1,000 , so it must not be :). Thanks, Don Burnette

Actually, progressive scan players are selling as low as $150 US recently. Not sure about the quality. I have a pricier Pioneer Elite ($700 about a year ago) and I cannot say enough about the picture quality. The easiest way to eliminate your DVD from progressive scan contention is a lack of component video output since progressive is not available via s-vid or composite. Beyond this, there should be some menu setting to enable progressive scan. On my player there's a progressive scan LED on the front to show when it's enabled. -- Joe M. "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Dave Henrie wrote: > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > >> How can you tell if you have a progressive scan player? > >> I have heard this mentioned before, but I do not see any thing about > >> progressive scan in the setup options in my dvd player. > >> > >> Don Burnette > >> > > if you bought recently and paid closer to 1000 dollars than 200 > > then you have progressive scan. If you got on the dvd train early, > > you don't have it. > > > > dave henrie > > Well, I bought about a year and a half ago, and nowhere near 1,000 , so it > must not be :). > > Thanks, > > Don Burnette > >

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > "Joe M." wrote: > > > > You're fine with a console. You'll only see the true difference on a > > digital set with component cables. Using composite video or s-video Ithink > > a console is an ideal choice since you have the option to play the > > occasional game. > > Ok, thx mate :-), so I guess an XboX it is then > > You're welcome. You won't be disappointed. I'm a hardcore sim fan (racing/flight), tactical shooter fan and occasional strategy and rpg fan. To me the computer is still king yet I still enjoy the Xbox. If you have any interest in sports then you'll love the xbox. It's also a fun to play platform games or fighting games with the kids if you have any of those rambling around. ;0) Additionally, there is the potential of a game like Project Gotham Racing 2 for racing fans. It will feature more refined physics, a nice choice of sports cars (Porsche 911 GT2, Ferrari, etc), and online racing via xbox live. If they add a decent steering wheel I like the prospects for this game. BTW, in the US the Xbox is currently available with a free DVD kit (remote and "activation" for DVD playback) after rebate. Shortly, a new bundle is coming with the "S" controller (preferable to the larger original controller) and 2 fun games Sega GT 2002 and JSRF (cell shaded game that has received great reviews). Enjoy. :-) -- Joe M.

"Dameon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:37:08 -0400, "Joe M." > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Actually, progressive scan players are selling as low as $150 USrecently. > >Not sure about the quality. I have a pricier Pioneer Elite ($700 about a > >year ago) and I cannot say enough about the picture quality. > > > >The easiest way to eliminate your DVD from progressive scan contention isa > >lack of component video output since progressive is not available vias-vid > >or composite. Beyond this, there should be some menu setting to enable > >progressive scan. On my player there's a progressive scan LED on thefront > >to show when it's enabled. > > And what exactly does Progrssive Scan do? Visual quality. It's the difference between a TV and a PC monitor: interlaced vs. progressive. A TV with 480 lines of resolution doesn't show all 480 lines for every screen update (1/60th second). Instead, a TV displays only 1/2 the picture every 1/60th of a second. The first "field" is comprised of the odd numbered lines and the next field is the even numbered lines. It takes two fields to build ONE full frame of video. Although it's fast, you never actually see one full frame of video at the SAME TIME. Progressive scan shows a full field of video EVERY 1/60th of a second. That means all the visual detail of the full frame EVERY SINGLE FRAME. Since DVD movies are recorded in 24 frames/second progressive scanning also includes 3:2 pull-down to convert 24 full frames to 60 full frames per second. A simple explanation is the TV alternately displays frames of DVD 3x then 2x then 3x, etc., resulting in 60 full frames per second. As you can imagine the picture is smoother, sharper, and has no motion artifacts or jaggies. For DVD movies you get that "film" look where skin tones are smooth and "creamy" (very natural and realistic), color is saturated, and everything is just more richly detailed. If you're someone who has a keen eye you will absolutely see the difference between progressive and interlaced DVD. Regarding console gaming, most Xbox games are 480p (progressive) so the graphics are remarkably nice for TV gaming. The avg Xbox game runs at 60 FULL FRAMES of animation per second. It's very impressive to say the least. -- Joe M.

Olav Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > Remember that there are no such thing as HDTV in Europe yet, and we > also have the RGB connection which for mysterious reasons lack on > american tv's. The big question is if the X-box can put out DVD > picture in RGB ? The PS2 can't. The PS2 can't play DVDs from out of it's region either.... unless you go buy a Region-X CD for about �10 which allows you to play all regions through a proper RGB Scart Cable.

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<wTkl9.45 > When and IF the console games reach the quality of current PC games with all > of the required accessories, as in a KB, internet connection, wheels/pedals, > hotas's, etc etc then maybe I'll plunk down my $150. Till then there isn't > any comparison of the two platforms. KB, internet connection, wheels/pedals, hotas's... you mean now, right?

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > Um, make up your mind, is it the software, or the hardware? It's both, in my opinion. You can't run a game on a PC without an OS, so you must factor in the speed/compatibility of the OS into the argument. A console has just enough to play the game, but a PC needs to support Digital Cameras, Scanners, Printers, CD-Writers, TV Cards, all of which are unnecessary when you are playing a game.

[email hidden] (Sam Altersitz) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > Glad to see it only got them 9 tries to get that right. But since I'm > not running the NT kernel, nor are the majority of home users, the > fact that Windows is horrible at managing resources still stands for > most people. Everybody I know is running XP. And I have never had problems with resource management since 98. > >lol, not really, personally, I find Netscape crashes the most on systems > >running Linux. Tell me about it. > And IE crashes the most on systems running Windows. The point being? > Then, later...

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> > However I went for a remarkably long time with very few crashes (over > a year with fewer than 10 crashes) until about a month an a half ago. > Right after downloading one of theose damn 'critical updates' from MS > for Windows. Now I can have Explorer crash itself, literally, > multiple times within seconds (as soon as I close the first illegal > operation message, another one pops up, and sometimes a third), and > this happens EVERY SINGLE DAY now, with no exceptions. And while I am > doing such resource intensive things like clicking on a link in a web > page, or clicking on the back button in the browser (normally in IE).

So your system was fine until you fiddled (figuratively speaking), then it broke, so all copies of Windows has IE crashing all the time? > It's possible that this has happened because I am running the first > edition of Windows 98 on this machine. However other people I know > are having simmilar problems and they run Win98SE. That's your problem, you are running the worst MS OS ever. 98 was an attempt to extend 95 before they fixed all the bugs inherent with such a massive change in the software (3.1 to 95). Then with ME they had to go through two versions (98 and 95 code), fixing bugs to make it stable. Then they gave up and built everything on NT, and everybody was happy. Nobody in the world used Linux any more, because they didn't like Netscape crashing all the time, and IE was now robust. Of course, some people needed an excuse to keep using Linux, so they kept comparing it to 5 year old copies of Windows. Then the world exploded. Gentlemen spewed forth onto their Sunday trousers. The Moon fell to Earth, and was consequently discovered to be only 7 inches in diameter. Bill Radshaw, a landscape designer from Stoke, looked up in puzzlement as the Moon landed on him, and crumbled into a fine powdery dust, which stuck in his hair. Blahblahblah... anyway: > I'm more inclined > to think MS is releasing bad code to try and get people to see the > 'need' to upgrade to XP. All the people I know with these crashing > problems had them start after downloading a few recent critical update > packages. Typical Linux syndrome I'm afraid. Did you know that there are aliens at Area 51? Or that Dr. Dre isn't actually a real doctor? > Of course you won't beleive MS would do this. But then you also > probably didn't think MS was using unfair, and illegal, business > practices for years either. Why? I don't believe MS would do this, but I don't agree with their business practices either. People who like MS can see faults in its products, unlike Linux users, who fail to see any problems with their OS. A community which sees no fault in its core beliefs will tend to become fascistic. > Unless 2k/XP has fixed the over reliance of virtual memory in Windows, > the system will inevitably slow itself down soon enough. > Possibly. But after all the crap I deal with on Windows, even going > back to DOS would be an improvement for me. But Unix is better than DOS... > Ah, but I prefer OpenGL and Glide over DirectX anyway. And most of > the games I play support them as well (and in some cases are > programmed in one of them first, and ported to DirectX). I prefer OpenGL to DirectX too, because DirectX suffers from some odd display glitches on my system, which seem to be associated with sorting and the Z-Buffer. Sometimes, textures with alpha channels seem to slow down the rendering process, too. I haven't done any tests or anything, so I don't know if this is just my machine/gfx card combo, or if it is a DX fault. OpenGL just looks nicer to me, anyway. Plus, I learnt OpenGL first (right after Glide, in fact). By the way, all my comments are tongue in cheek. They are not intended to insult any person or group of people, just to provoke interesting conversation. The best way to make an opinion on something is to listen to both sides of the argument.

"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<qiml9.102720$[email hidden]>... > Yes and consoles have no sim titles. Er, The Sims? :-)

"Joe M." wrote:

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> > Visual quality. It's the difference between a TV and a PC monitor: > interlaced vs. progressive. A TV with 480 lines of resolution doesn't show > all 480 lines for every screen update (1/60th second). Instead, a TV > displays only 1/2 the picture every 1/60th of a second. The first "field" > is comprised of the odd numbered lines and the next field is the even > numbered lines. It takes two fields to build ONE full frame of video. > Although it's fast, you never actually see one full frame of video at the > SAME TIME. > > Progressive scan shows a full field of video EVERY 1/60th of a second. That > means all the visual detail of the full frame EVERY SINGLE FRAME. Since DVD > movies are recorded in 24 frames/second progressive scanning also includes > 3:2 pull-down to convert 24 full frames to 60 full frames per second. A > simple explanation is the TV alternately displays frames of DVD 3x then 2x > then 3x, etc., resulting in 60 full frames per second. > > As you can imagine the picture is smoother, sharper, and has no motion > artifacts or jaggies. For DVD movies you get that "film" look where skin > tones are smooth and "creamy" (very natural and realistic), color is > saturated, and everything is just more richly detailed. If you're someone > who has a keen eye you will absolutely see the difference between > progressive and interlaced DVD.

Ok.....now you've gone and made me want a progressive scan DVD player too > Regarding console gaming, most Xbox games are 480p (progressive) so the > graphics are remarkably nice for TV gaming. The avg Xbox game runs at 60 > FULL FRAMES of animation per second. It's very impressive to say the least. Cool since this is the console I'll most likely get Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

I have and use the component out rather than the S Video, but see no info as to progressive scan. Oh well, it won't play burned vcd's either, so maybe I need to upgrade pretty soon :). Don Burnette Joe M. wrote:

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> Actually, progressive scan players are selling as low as $150 US > recently. Not sure about the quality. I have a pricier Pioneer Elite > ($700 about a year ago) and I cannot say enough about the picture > quality. > > The easiest way to eliminate your DVD from progressive scan > contention is a lack of component video output since progressive is > not available via s-vid or composite. Beyond this, there should be > some menu setting to enable progressive scan. On my player there's a > progressive scan LED on the front to show when it's enabled. > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Dave Henrie wrote: >>> "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> How can you tell if you have a progressive scan player? >>>> I have heard this mentioned before, but I do not see any thing >>>> about progressive scan in the setup options in my dvd player. >>>> >>>> Don Burnette >>>> >>> if you bought recently and paid closer to 1000 dollars than 200 >>> then you have progressive scan. If you got on the dvd train early, >>> you don't have it. >>> >>> dave henrie >> >> Well, I bought about a year and a half ago, and nowhere near 1,000 , >> so it must not be :). >> >> Thanks, >> >> Don Burnette