FINALLY got a joystick--GPL is great :-)

The title says it all. With a $12 USB-Nest converter from eBay and a $9 joystick from the Mall of America, I'm finally running GPL without a keyboard on my blazingly fast 333Mhz laptop <smirk>. So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and with some changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later). This is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

You are da man! "J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The title says it all. With a $12 USB-Nest converter from eBay and a $9 > joystick from the Mall of America, I'm finally running GPL without akeyboard > on my blazingly fast 333Mhz laptop <smirk>. > > So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and withsome > changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later).This

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> is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) > > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > My little car sim screenshots: > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >

"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The title says it all. With a $12 USB-Nest converter from eBay and a $9 > joystick from the Mall of America, I'm finally running GPL without akeyboard > on my blazingly fast 333Mhz laptop <smirk>. > > So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and withsome > changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later).This > is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) Those are good times ;-) What are you using for gearchanges, throttle & brake? Malc.

Its possible to be pretty darn fast on a joystick with enough practise. My crowning glory was a 1:04.57 at Watkins Glen. Can't even match that on my wheel!

[email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> The title says it all. With a $12 USB-Nest converter from eBay and a > $9 joystick from the Mall of America, I'm finally running GPL without > a keyboard on my blazingly fast 333Mhz laptop <smirk>. > > So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and > with some changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week > or so later). This is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) > > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > My little car sim screenshots: > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >

Gpl does come alive when you're using anolouge inputs, though a better solution than the joystick may be a gamepad. With a gamepad it should be possible to have a split-axis pedal type setup eg throttle+steering on one stick and braking on another, which would allow you to brake with a little throttle for stability. It's still possible to be fast with a single axis joystick (my pb at watkins was 1:03.9 and at spa 3:13.3 with a joystick), though I'd reccomend you get a gamepad so you drive with the style the hotlap setups are designed for, as you seem very fast for a beginner.

> >What are you using for gearchanges, throttle & brake? > >Malc. Top button and trigger for gear changes, forward/backward axis for throttle/brake. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

> >You are da man! Thank you! Thank you! You're a great crowd :-D Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

>Gpl does come alive when you're using anolouge inputs, though a better >solution than the joystick may be a gamepad. With a gamepad it should be >possible to have a split-axis pedal type setup eg throttle+steering on one >stick and braking on another, which would allow you to brake with a little >throttle for stability. Heh.. Wouldn't a gamepad be digital only? Or are you referring to a PS2 type pad with the dual joysticks? If just digital, that'd be the same as the keyboard, wouldn't it? If PS2 type, then I agree with that point. I'm just so used to joysticks from long, long ago when I used to play ICR2 all the time on my P-60. > It's still possible to be fast with a single axis >joystick (my pb at watkins was 1:03.9 and at spa 3:13.3 with a joystick), >though I'd reccomend you get a gamepad so you drive with the style the >hotlap setups are designed for, as you seem very fast for a beginner. > Thanks.. I'll have to try those tracks with the joystick and see how many seconds behind you I'll be :-) I do have a wheel for a gamepad port (that's what I got the converter for), but my pedals have mysteriously disappeared :-( Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

>Its possible to be pretty darn fast on a joystick with enough practise. My >crowning glory was a 1:04.57 at Watkins Glen. Can't even match that on my >wheel! The biggest trouble I think I'm having right now is that it's tough to get combined steering and throttle/brake just how I want throughout a turn. It's tricky to adjust one without the other to get a feel for the car, but I imagine after awhile it would become automatic. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

[email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> Heh.. Wouldn't a gamepad be digital only? Or are you referring to a > PS2 type > pad with the dual joysticks? If just digital, that'd be the same as > the keyboard, wouldn't it? > > If PS2 type, then I agree with that point. I'm just so used to > joysticks from > long, long ago when I used to play ICR2 all the time on my P-60.

Yes I meant the playstation type gamepad:), I wasn't aware they still made the old nes type gamepads:).

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>> It's still possible to be fast with a single axis >>joystick (my pb at watkins was 1:03.9 and at spa 3:13.3 with a >>joystick), though I'd reccomend you get a gamepad so you drive with >>the style the hotlap setups are designed for, as you seem very fast >>for a beginner. >> > > Thanks.. I'll have to try those tracks with the joystick and see how > many > seconds behind you I'll be :-) I do have a wheel for a gamepad port > (that's what I got the converter for), but my pedals have mysteriously > disappeared :-( > > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > My little car sim screenshots: > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm > >

Hey, I know exactly what you mean - the GPL demo came out right about when my dad started taking some classes where they gave him a Thinkpad 380XD laptop...Pentium 233MHz, Win95, 32MB RAM, 2MB video...and no joystick port! So those first few laps around the Glen were keyboard-controlled in software mode, heh. I would've loaded it up on the family PC... ...but it was a Pentium 90. :P Milhouse "J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The title says it all. With a $12 USB-Nest converter from eBay and a $9 > joystick from the Mall of America, I'm finally running GPL without akeyboard > on my blazingly fast 333Mhz laptop <smirk>. > > So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and withsome > changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later).This

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> is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) > > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > My little car sim screenshots: > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >

On 16 Oct 2002 01:32:03 GMT, John Pickett <[email hidden]> wrote: >Yes I meant the playstation type gamepad:), I wasn't aware they still made >the old nes type gamepads:). USB Gravis Gamepad Pro baby. Kicks ass in Tony Hawk 3, High Heat 2003, and Madden 2003. =) Jason

"J. Todd Wasson" > So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and withsome > changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later).This > is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) > > > > Todd Wasson sigh.................... dave henrie

>> If PS2 type, then I agree with that point. I'm just so used to >> joysticks from >> long, long ago when I used to play ICR2 all the time on my P-60. > >Yes I meant the playstation type gamepad:), I wasn't aware they still made >the old nes type gamepads:). Ah, ok. I don't know if they still make them or not either :-) That's a good idea then, maybe next time I'll pick one up. Thanks for the tip! Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

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> >Hey, I know exactly what you mean - the GPL demo came out right about when >my dad started taking some classes where they gave him a Thinkpad 380XD >laptop...Pentium 233MHz, Win95, 32MB RAM, 2MB video...and no joystick port! > >So those first few laps around the Glen were keyboard-controlled in software >mode, heh. I would've loaded it up on the family PC... > >...but it was a Pentium 90. :P >

I did give this a shot on my Pentium 60 a couple years ago. With all gfx turned to a minimum I got about 2-3fps. The sound was choppy and jumpy, and the simulation itself was running at about 1/2 speed. Still, the combination was enough to get a 1:33 (IIRC) at Monza. Needless to say, that didn't get much play on the P-60 :-) What do laptop makers think? We won't bother to stuff a steering wheel or joystick into our bag to take with us? ;-) Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > >Hey, I know exactly what you mean - the GPL demo came out right aboutwhen > >my dad started taking some classes where they gave him a Thinkpad 380XD > >laptop...Pentium 233MHz, Win95, 32MB RAM, 2MB video...and no joystickport! > > > >So those first few laps around the Glen were keyboard-controlled insoftware

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> >mode, heh. I would've loaded it up on the family PC... > > > >...but it was a Pentium 90. :P > > > > > I did give this a shot on my Pentium 60 a couple years ago. With all

gfx > turned to a minimum I got about 2-3fps. The sound was choppy and jumpy,and > the simulation itself was running at about 1/2 speed. Still, thecombination > was enough to get a 1:33 (IIRC) at Monza. Needless to say, that didn'tget > much play on the P-60 :-) > > What do laptop makers think? We won't bother to stuff a steering wheelor

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> joystick into our bag to take with us? ;-) > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > My little car sim screenshots: > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >

Nah, IBM was thinking ahead, I suppose...it does have a USB port, but at the time, USB gaming devices were all but nonexistent, especially when you're talking about the guy cheap enough to have never paid more than $40 for a steering wheel. ;) (Thrustmaster T1, and later a GP1, both from the Black Hole at Incredible Universe...and more recently, when both of those wheels bit the dust HARD, a Logitech Formula Force GP for $35 or so on eBay :) Milhouse

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> "J. Todd Wasson" > >>So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and with some >>changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later). > > sigh....................

My thoughts exactly Dave... Regards, Ruud

"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > >What are you using for gearchanges, throttle & brake? > > > >Malc. > > Top button and trigger for gear changes, forward/backward axis for > throttle/brake.

It's not easy to blip the throttle with the Y-axis. Have you tried any laps with damage turned on? I use the throttle & thumb buttons for up & down changes on my Wingman Force, but use split axis pedals for the brake/gas. Nice going nonetheless. Malc.

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> >Nah, IBM was thinking ahead, I suppose...it does have a USB port, but at the >time, USB gaming devices were all but nonexistent, especially when you're >talking about the guy cheap enough to have never paid more than $40 for a >steering wheel. ;) (Thrustmaster T1, and later a GP1, both from the Black >Hole at Incredible Universe...and more recently, when both of those wheels >bit the dust HARD, a Logitech Formula Force GP for $35 or so on eBay :) > >Milhouse

I'm one of these cheapies too :-) My Thrustmaster Nascar Super Sport wheel was $29.95 if I remember right. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

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>It's not easy to blip the throttle with the Y-axis. Have you tried any laps >with damage turned on? > >I use the throttle & thumb buttons for up & down changes on my Wingman >Force, but use split axis pedals for the brake/gas. > >Nice going nonetheless. > >Malc.

I've run with arcade damage, but haven't tried full damage since I got the joystick. Every few minutes the joystick suddenly stops being recognized, so I like to spend as much time on the track as possible. This happens with every game, not just GPL (even my own sim does this.) Rebooting fixes it for a few minutes, but it gets frustrating after awhile. GPL's habit of kicking me back to the desktop occasionally doesn't help either :-) I wonder if it's the converter causing it...? Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >It's not easy to blip the throttle with the Y-axis. Have you tried anylaps

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> >with damage turned on? > > > >I use the throttle & thumb buttons for up & down changes on my Wingman > >Force, but use split axis pedals for the brake/gas. > > > >Nice going nonetheless. > > > >Malc. > > I've run with arcade damage, but haven't tried full damage since I got the > joystick. Every few minutes the joystick suddenly stops being recognized,

so I > like to spend as much time on the track as possible. > > This happens with every game, not just GPL (even my own sim does this.) > Rebooting fixes it for a few minutes, but it gets frustrating afterawhile. > GPL's habit of kicking me back to the desktop occasionally doesn't helpeither > :-) I wonder if it's the converter causing it...? It does sound like the sort of symptoms you'd get with a dodgy connection, so it could be the converter. Try the Joystick in another PC & see if it's the connector or the port on your laptop. Good luck with the Joystick, it'll be waaaay better than a gamepad, but you'll never really have complete control until you can separate your throttle & brake. If you're this good now, think how good you'll get with some pedals ;-) Malc.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) writes: >So far.... It took about an hour to get a high 1:29 at Monza, and with some >changes to the setup a 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later). >This >is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) Damn - you're almost a half second faster than my Kyalami time... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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> 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later). >>This >>is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) > >Damn - you're almost a half second faster than my Kyalami time... :-( > >Eldred

Eldred, if it makes you feel any better, I've been running Kyalami for the past couple of days and have only barely run in the high 1:21's a few times with no 1:20's at all... Must have been a freak lap, not sure how it happened. In a typical race, you'd probably beat me :-) Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

>It does sound like the sort of symptoms you'd get with a dodgy connection, >so it could be the converter. Try the Joystick in another PC & see if it's >the connector or the port on your laptop. I do have 2 USB ports on this laptop, so I'll try the other one and see if it helps (hopefully!). I don't have another PC to try this with though :-( >Good luck with the Joystick, it'll be waaaay better than a gamepad, but >you'll never really have complete control until you can separate your >throttle & brake. If you're this good now, think how good you'll get with >some pedals ;-) > I've read that a lot of you guys use throttle and brake at the same time. I've tried a little trailbraking with the joystick, but the improvement for me is usually trivial, if any at all. Usually just a very light touch of the brakes will tuck in the nose a bit, but any more than this and I get too sideways I think. Watching Gregor Huttu's 1:17xx lap is really really interesting. He really nails these corners. He turns in quite a bit earlier than I do and seems to scrub off just the right amount of speed on the way in. The car sets perfectly on the way in and stays rock solid through the whole turn. I can't see what he's doing with his feet though. Maybe he's using brake and gas at the same time? Maybe a little shock tweaking would get me closer to this. Hard to imagine going three seconds faster than my best lap so far! lol Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > 1:20.94 at Kyalami just now (a week or so later). > >>This > >>is MUCH better than using the keyboard :-) > > > >Damn - you're almost a half second faster than my Kyalami time... :-( > > > >Eldred > > Eldred, if it makes you feel any better, I've been running Kyalami for the

past > couple of days and have only barely run in the high 1:21's a few timeswith no > 1:20's at all... Must have been a freak lap, not sure how it happened.In a > typical race, you'd probably beat me :-) That's pretty much the definition of a Personal Best ;-) Malc.

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>have only barely run in the high 1:21's a few times >with no >> 1:20's at all... Must have been a freak lap, not sure how it happened. >In a >> typical race, you'd probably beat me :-) > >That's pretty much the definition of a Personal Best ;-) > >Malc.

Hehe... Ok then :-D Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

On 20 Oct 2002 20:14:00 GMT, [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) wrote:

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>>It does sound like the sort of symptoms you'd get with a dodgy connection, >>so it could be the converter. Try the Joystick in another PC & see if it's >>the connector or the port on your laptop. > > I do have 2 USB ports on this laptop, so I'll try the other one and see if it >helps (hopefully!). I don't have another PC to try this with though :-( > >>Good luck with the Joystick, it'll be waaaay better than a gamepad, but >>you'll never really have complete control until you can separate your >>throttle & brake. If you're this good now, think how good you'll get with >>some pedals ;-) >> > >I've read that a lot of you guys use throttle and brake at the same time. I've >tried a little trailbraking with the joystick, but the improvement for me is >usually trivial, if any at all. Usually just a very light touch of the brakes >will tuck in the nose a bit, but any more than this and I get too sideways I >think. > >Watching Gregor Huttu's 1:17xx lap is really really interesting. He really >nails these corners. He turns in quite a bit earlier than I do and seems to >scrub off just the right amount of speed on the way in. The car sets perfectly >on the way in and stays rock solid through the whole turn. I can't see what >he's doing with his feet though. Maybe he's using brake and gas at the same >time?

It seems so. People use throttle and brake at the same time as a sort of live braking bias. Keeping the throttle on a bit while braking seems to stabilize things for them. In real life you might break your car a little too early for this too work, but I believe the hotlappers do use this sort of approach. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

"Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 20 Oct 2002 20:14:00 GMT, [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) wrote: > > >>It does sound like the sort of symptoms you'd get with a dodgyconnection, > >>so it could be the converter. Try the Joystick in another PC & see ifit's > >>the connector or the port on your laptop. > > > > I do have 2 USB ports on this laptop, so I'll try the other one and seeif it > >helps (hopefully!). I don't have another PC to try this with though :-( > > > >>Good luck with the Joystick, it'll be waaaay better than a gamepad, but > >>you'll never really have complete control until you can separate your > >>throttle & brake. If you're this good now, think how good you'll getwith > >>some pedals ;-) > >> > > > >I've read that a lot of you guys use throttle and brake at the same time.I've > >tried a little trailbraking with the joystick, but the improvement for meis > >usually trivial, if any at all. Usually just a very light touch of thebrakes > >will tuck in the nose a bit, but any more than this and I get toosideways I > >think. > > > >Watching Gregor Huttu's 1:17xx lap is really really interesting. Hereally > >nails these corners. He turns in quite a bit earlier than I do and seemsto > >scrub off just the right amount of speed on the way in. The car setsperfectly > >on the way in and stays rock solid through the whole turn. I can't seewhat > >he's doing with his feet though. Maybe he's using brake and gas at thesame

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> >time? > > It seems so. People use throttle and brake at the same time as a sort > of live braking bias. Keeping the throttle on a bit while braking > seems to stabilize things for them. > In real life you might break your car a little too early for this too > work, but I believe the hotlappers do use this sort of approach.

Adjustable brake bias is a good analogy for one of the benefits. I brake & apply throttle simultaneously to adjust the line of the car quite a bit under braking to keep the car stable, but I think the main benefit comes from the ability to roll off the brake & apply the throttle more smoothly (and vice versa). You can do the same thing without split axis pedals, but the brake partly cancels out the throttle, so you can't get the power on as early. I'm only talking about very small overlaps here, btw. Partial throttle & partial brake. That's how it seems to me anyway ;-) Malc.

I think the other thing that happens when you overlap throttle and brake is that you can get better control over the speed at which the chassis settles into place and over how much overshoot there is. Since you end up having to use pretty light springs and dampers in GPL in order to get any traction, there is a need to be able to keep the chassis from popping up and down and bouncing around, and a slight overlap of throttle and brake seems to do it. "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7bWs9.3760$Ai6.131340@stones... > Adjustable brake bias is a good analogy for one of the benefits. > > I brake & apply throttle simultaneously to adjust the line of the carquite > a bit under braking to keep the car stable, but I think the mainbenefit > comes from the ability to roll off the brake & apply the throttle more > smoothly (and vice versa). > You can do the same thing without split axis pedals, but the brakepartly > cancels out the throttle, so you can't get the power on as early. I'monly > talking about very small overlaps here, btw. Partial throttle &partial

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> brake. > > That's how it seems to me anyway ;-) > > Malc. > >