NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? Yes, it is that bad. As far as the handling goes, it's significantly worse than the FIA GTv3 mod. Speaking of that mod, apparently Tiburion didn't have any luck getting rid of the "smoke/dirt/rain inside the cockpit" effect either. I'm seriously appalled that I spent $40 on this coaster. On the plus side, having everything that annoyed me about the F1 2002 engine smacking me straight in the face at every turn (literally) has made me feel better about my gradual dislike for that "sim" as well. Jason

Take it back. If you don't, then you are supporting EA and letting them know you like it. This goes for anyone else who purchases it and dislikes it. TAKE IT BACK!!!!!!! If the store won't take it back, send it back to EA. They have a satisfaction guarantee. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Yes, it is that bad. > > As far as the handling goes, it's significantly worse than the FIA > GTv3 mod. Speaking of that mod, apparently Tiburion didn't have any > luck getting rid of the "smoke/dirt/rain inside the cockpit" effect > either. > > I'm seriously appalled that I spent $40 on this coaster. On the plus > side, having everything that annoyed me about the F1 2002 engine > smacking me straight in the face at every turn (literally) has made me > feel better about my gradual dislike for that "sim" as well. > > Jason

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > Jason It ain't no GPL !

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) wrote: >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate? I just ran a full lap at Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide. Beautiful work. Jason

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > wrote: > > >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through > the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate? I just ran a full lap at > Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide. Beautiful work. > > Jason

So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real Nascar racing is a GOOD thing? 4 wide down the main straight at Pocono, but that's it...and 3 wide at the Esses...nobody in WC has brass balls that big... dave henrie

>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real > Nascar racing is a GOOD thing? I think you missed his sarcasm Dave ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Thanks for the info Jason. Achim "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Yes, it is that bad. > > As far as the handling goes, it's significantly worse than the FIA > GTv3 mod. Speaking of that mod, apparently Tiburion didn't have any > luck getting rid of the "smoke/dirt/rain inside the cockpit" effect > either. > > I'm seriously appalled that I spent $40 on this coaster. On the plus > side, having everything that annoyed me about the F1 2002 engine > smacking me straight in the face at every turn (literally) has made me > feel better about my gradual dislike for that "sim" as well. > > Jason

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:08:30 -0400, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote >> So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real >> Nascar racing is a GOOD thing? > > >I think you missed his sarcasm Dave ;) Sarcasm? I was complimenting how realistic you can run multiple lines in the game!! High, low, middle, against the wall, on the infield, in row 20 of the grandstand, doesn't matter! Did I mention that Pocono feels like the Autobahn and that half the turns at Watkins Glen are apparently banked? Jason

You are smoking Jason... The game is good. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Yes, it is that bad. > > As far as the handling goes, it's significantly worse than the FIA > GTv3 mod. Speaking of that mod, apparently Tiburion didn't have any > luck getting rid of the "smoke/dirt/rain inside the cockpit" effect > either. > > I'm seriously appalled that I spent $40 on this coaster. On the plus > side, having everything that annoyed me about the F1 2002 engine > smacking me straight in the face at every turn (literally) has made me > feel better about my gradual dislike for that "sim" as well. > > Jason

Yes, because it actually feels like a car, not like some hover craft :) "Jon T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aolakl$137p$[email hidden]... > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > > Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Jason > > It ain't no GPL ! > >

The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and Murder by number Pace Car :) "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Xoqr9.65376$[email hidden]...

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> > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > > wrote: > > > > >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > > > Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through > > the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate? I just ran a full lap at > > Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide. Beautiful work. > > > > Jason > So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real > Nascar racing is a GOOD thing? 4 wide down the main straight at Pocono,

but > that's it...and 3 wide at the Esses...nobody in WC has brass balls that > big... > dave henrie > > >

Kind of like that "realistic" Bristol and Martinsville are to N2002 :) Keep up that Backmarking Jason :) "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:08:30 -0400, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able inreal

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> >> Nascar racing is a GOOD thing? > > > > > >I think you missed his sarcasm Dave ;) > > Sarcasm? I was complimenting how realistic you can run multiple lines > in the game!! High, low, middle, against the wall, on the infield, in > row 20 of the grandstand, doesn't matter! > > Did I mention that Pocono feels like the Autobahn and that half the > turns at Watkins Glen are apparently banked? > > Jason

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) wrote: <snip> Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is good and bad about the sim. 1. Graphics If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much longer than a real WC stock car. The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being there. N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file and everything looks much much better...except that the default cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the windshield, but YMMV. 2. Sound Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the announcing. Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, it's that bad. 3. Layout/Presentation The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find. Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time consuming process. The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at that point, so it could be what they're going for. Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. 4. Track Modelling Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously appalling. The off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off. Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the window, you won't need 'em here. 5. Physics First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be tough flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation of weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean more realistic. Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. Jason

Bill, really. We all know how you feel about Papyrus, but that is no reason to say EA has a better sim. If you think about it, Papy Did make several enhancements over the years, even though that slowed as Sierra stepped in. Still, it remains to be seen if EA will do the same, thereby changing their own habits. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and Murder by number Pace Car :) "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Xoqr9.65376$[email hidden]... > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > > wrote: > > > > >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > > > Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through > > the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate? I just ran a full lap at > > Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide. Beautiful work. > > > > Jason > So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real > Nascar racing is a GOOD thing? 4 wide down the main straight at Pocono, but > that's it...and 3 wide at the Esses...nobody in WC has brass balls that > big... > dave henrie > > >

Jason, Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 patches that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was obvious from earlier posts before the game was released. So, I will leave N4 on my harddrive for my little boy to play with, while I will move on and try something different. Actually having more fun right now with the Lemans mod for F1 2002. And, like Heat, I will support anyone that goes head to head with Papy and their $50.00 patches. Thanks for the rant "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > wrote: > > <snip> > > Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is > good and bad about the sim. > > 1. Graphics > > If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias > causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed > Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it > look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the > same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you > use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and > oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much > longer than a real WC stock car. > > The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the > side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 > but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no > damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at > over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after > being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the > axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the > front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit > that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, > would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being > there. > > N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture > realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second > faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 > does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some > classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 > car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. > > The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you > can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file > and everything looks much much better...except that the default > cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the > windshield, but YMMV. > > 2. Sound > > Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being > Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. > > The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were > recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my > bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, > they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the > standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward > silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the > announcing. > > Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds > are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like > they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, > it's that bad. > > 3. Layout/Presentation > > The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen > there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most > things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find. > Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no > paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires > going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time > consuming process. > > The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons > and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. > > The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace > lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be > prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a > short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto > pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to > return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and > you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. > > The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. > On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at > that point, so it could be what they're going for. > > Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If > you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. > > 4. Track Modelling > > Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, > and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at > the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little > bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously appalling. The > off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really > expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off. > > Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at > the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really > quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the > window, you won't need 'em here. > > 5. Physics > > First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in > the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the > flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. > > Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at > high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, > which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't > worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at > Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the > turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. > > Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks > in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be tough > flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels > are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. > > As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The > polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts > at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at > 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. > > GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the > threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the > surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd > also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel > more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank > glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap > around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation of > weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a > ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of > place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little > indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which > imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting > the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean > more realistic. > > Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is > that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, > but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. > > Jason

"I really felt like having sex with my cousin " hehe...maybe this is the type of customer Thunder was trying to attract. This explains why we don't get it. How hard can it be to see what Papy has done and go from there. Still pissed about my $40. I threw away. DC Jason Moyer <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > wrote: > > <snip> > > Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is > good and bad about the sim. > > 1. Graphics > > If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias > causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed > Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it > look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the > same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you > use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and > oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much > longer than a real WC stock car. > > The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the > side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 > but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no > damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at > over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after > being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the > axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the > front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit > that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, > would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being > there. > > N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture > realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second > faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 > does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some > classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 > car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. > > The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you > can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file > and everything looks much much better...except that the default > cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the > windshield, but YMMV. > > 2. Sound > > Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being > Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. > > The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were > recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my > bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, > they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the > standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward > silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the > announcing. > > Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds > are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like > they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, > it's that bad. > > 3. Layout/Presentation > > The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen > there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most > things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find. > Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no > paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires > going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time > consuming process. > > The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons > and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. > > The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace > lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be > prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a > short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto > pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to > return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and > you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. > > The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. > On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at > that point, so it could be what they're going for. > > Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If > you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. > > 4. Track Modelling > > Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, > and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at > the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little > bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously appalling. The > off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really > expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off. > > Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at > the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really > quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the > window, you won't need 'em here. > > 5. Physics > > First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in > the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the > flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. > > Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at > high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, > which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't > worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at > Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the > turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. > > Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks > in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be tough > flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels > are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. > > As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The > polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts > at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at > 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. > > GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the > threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the > surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd > also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel > more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank > glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap > around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation of > weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a > ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of > place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little > indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which > imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting > the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean > more realistic. > > Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is > that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, > but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. > > Jason

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:40:03 GMT, "jrdrags" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You are >obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 patches >that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. You are right. I spent $40 on a game because I had nothing else to use it on, even though I knew in advance that it would be horrible. I am so hung up on Papyrus that I buy every single notable racing sim that comes out, even though none of them have come close to the realism of GPL or N4/2002. Yes, my blindless led me into purchasing Nascar 2002 even though it was just a patch for Nascar 4 and didn't include completely new features or a much more realistic and detailed tire/suspension model. My Papyrus fanaticism has led me to actually continuing to tweak and play with Nascar Thunder 2003 today even though it's obvious that I'd be better off reinstalling Nascar Heat again. *rolls eyes* Jason

Papy's AI sucks, period. It seems that most of their customers don't notice it, because they never play single player. I have no doubt that Papy's multiplayer is excellent, but even NFS has better AI than they do. "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l4Cr9.43335$[email hidden]... Bill, really. We all know how you feel about Papyrus, but that is no reason to say EA has a better sim. If you think about it, Papy Did make several enhancements over the years, even though that slowed as Sierra stepped in. Still, it remains to be seen if EA will do the same, thereby changing their own habits. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and Murder by number Pace Car :)

You didn't by any chance have all the aids on did you? If it's anything like the F1 games, they all default to on. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (151 lines)

> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > wrote: > > <snip> > > Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is > good and bad about the sim. > > 1. Graphics > > If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias > causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed > Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it > look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the > same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you > use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and > oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much > longer than a real WC stock car. > > The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the > side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 > but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no > damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at > over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after > being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the > axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the > front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit > that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, > would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being > there. > > N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture > realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second > faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 > does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some > classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 > car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. > > The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you > can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file > and everything looks much much better...except that the default > cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the > windshield, but YMMV. > > 2. Sound > > Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being > Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. > > The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were > recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my > bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, > they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the > standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward > silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the > announcing. > > Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds > are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like > they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, > it's that bad. > > 3. Layout/Presentation > > The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen > there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most > things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find. > Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no > paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires > going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time > consuming process. > > The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons > and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. > > The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace > lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be > prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a > short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto > pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to > return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and > you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. > > The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. > On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at > that point, so it could be what they're going for. > > Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If > you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. > > 4. Track Modelling > > Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, > and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at > the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little > bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously appalling. The > off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really > expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off. > > Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at > the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really > quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the > window, you won't need 'em here. > > 5. Physics > > First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in > the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the > flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. > > Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at > high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, > which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't > worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at > Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the > turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. > > Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks > in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be tough > flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels > are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. > > As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The > polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts > at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at > 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. > > GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the > threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the > surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd > also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel > more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank > glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap > around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation of > weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a > ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of > place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little > indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which > imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting > the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean > more realistic. > > Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is > that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, > but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. > > Jason

. > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > track. Lol.....like these two things are identical. I watched the race on TV and damned if I'm not shocked taking the car on the track.................................... Real racing is that. A game is a game period only and for enjoyment. Call it a sim to feel better about playing games on the computer if you wish, but it is a game, not real racing by any stretch of the imagination Unless you work as a professional race car driver for a Winston Cup team and have many years experience doing so, well then my friend your blowing smoke outta your ass. If someone likes the game good if not thats fine too. Its all about what one enjoys. My .opinion, and in my world its the only opinion that counts. Adios !

Papy AI is sufficient to get you up to speed before a league race ;-) /Carl "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aond6m$ofnbk$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (30 lines)

> Papy's AI sucks, period. It seems that most of their customers don't > notice it, because they never play single player. I have no doubt that > Papy's multiplayer is excellent, but even NFS has better AI than they > do. > > > "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:l4Cr9.43335$[email hidden]... > Bill, really. > > We all know how you feel about Papyrus, but that is no reason to say EA > has a better sim. > If you think about it, Papy Did make several enhancements over the > years, even though that slowed as Sierra stepped in. > Still, it remains to be seen if EA will do the same, thereby changing > their own habits. > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and Murder by > number > Pace Car :) > > >

Well, I thank him as well, but in the other direction, based on what he mentioned along with what some others have mentioned, I will definitely pass on this one. I wasn't impressed with the screen shots, wasn't impressed with Heat, and now know I would not be impressed with this game. Thanks for the detailed report Jason, Don Burnette jrdrags wrote:

Quoted text (164 lines)

> Jason, > Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are > obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 > patches that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was > obvious from earlier posts before the game was released. So, I will > leave N4 on my harddrive for my little boy to play with, while I will > move on and try something different. Actually having more fun right > now with the Lemans mod for F1 2002. And, like Heat, I will support > anyone that goes head to head with Papy and their $50.00 patches. > Thanks for the rant > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) >> wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >> Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is >> good and bad about the sim. >> >> 1. Graphics >> >> If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias >> causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed >> Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it >> look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the >> same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you >> use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and >> oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much >> longer than a real WC stock car. >> >> The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the >> side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 >> but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no >> damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at >> over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after >> being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the >> axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the >> front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle >> bit that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, >> would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being >> there. >> >> N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture >> realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second >> faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 >> does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some >> classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 >> car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. >> >> The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you >> can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file >> and everything looks much much better...except that the default >> cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the >> windshield, but YMMV. >> >> 2. Sound >> >> Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being >> Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. >> >> The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were >> recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my >> bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, >> they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the >> standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward >> silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the >> announcing. >> >> Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds >> are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like >> they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, >> it's that bad. >> >> 3. Layout/Presentation >> >> The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen >> there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but >> most things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to >> find. Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, >> there's no paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) >> requires going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a >> time consuming process. >> >> The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons >> and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. >> >> The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace >> lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen >> be prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in >> even a short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap >> and/or auto pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's >> going to return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO >> GO GO" and you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. >> >> The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. >> On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at >> that point, so it could be what they're going for. >> >> Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If >> you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. >> >> 4. Track Modelling >> >> Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, >> and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at >> the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the >> little bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously >> appalling. The off-track details are of course just as bad, but you >> can't really expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far >> off. >> >> Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at >> the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really >> quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. >> >> If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on >> TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the >> track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out >> the window, you won't need 'em here. >> >> 5. Physics >> >> First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed >> in the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the >> flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. >> >> Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at >> high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, >> which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't >> worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at >> Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the >> turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. >> >> Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the >> cracks in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be >> tough flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear >> wheels are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. >> >> As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The >> polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor >> attempts at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the >> ground at 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. >> >> GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the >> threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the >> surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd >> also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel >> more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank >> glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to >> snap around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation >> of weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a >> ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of >> place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little >> indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, >> which imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when >> putting the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case >> doesn't mean more realistic. >> >> Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is >> that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, >> but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. >> >> Jason

Actually, his review is really spot on. Too bad I can't return the game. -- Philippe "Philster" Sergerie "jrdrags" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TBCr9.34633$[email hidden]... > Jason, > Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are > obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 patches > that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was obvious from earlier > posts before the game was released. So, I will leave N4 on my harddrive for > my little boy to play with, while I will move on and try something > different. Actually having more fun right now with the Lemans mod for F1 > 2002. And, like Heat, I will support anyone that goes head to head with Papy > and their $50.00 patches. > Thanks for the rant > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > > wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is > > good and bad about the sim. > > > > 1. Graphics > > > > If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias > > causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed > > Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it > > look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the > > same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you > > use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and > > oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much > > longer than a real WC stock car. > > > > The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the > > side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 > > but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no > > damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at > > over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after > > being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the > > axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the > > front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit > > that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, > > would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being > > there. > > > > N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture > > realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second > > faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 > > does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some > > classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 > > car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. > > > > The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you > > can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file > > and everything looks much much better...except that the default > > cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the > > windshield, but YMMV. > > > > 2. Sound > > > > Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being > > Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. > > > > The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were > > recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my > > bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, > > they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the > > standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward > > silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the > > announcing. > > > > Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds > > are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like > > they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, > > it's that bad. > > > > 3. Layout/Presentation > > > > The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen > > there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most > > things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find. > > Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no > > paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires > > going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time > > consuming process. > > > > The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons > > and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. > > > > The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace > > lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be > > prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a > > short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto > > pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to > > return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and > > you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. > > > > The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. > > On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at > > that point, so it could be what they're going for. > > > > Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If > > you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. > > > > 4. Track Modelling > > > > Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, > > and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at > > the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little > > bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously appalling. The > > off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really > > expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off. > > > > Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at > > the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really > > quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. > > > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > > track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the > > window, you won't need 'em here. > > > > 5. Physics > > > > First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in > > the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the > > flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. > > > > Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at > > high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, > > which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't > > worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at > > Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the > > turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. > > > > Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks > > in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be tough > > flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels > > are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. > > > > As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The > > polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts > > at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at > > 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. > > > > GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the > > threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the > > surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd > > also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel > > more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank > > glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap > > around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation of > > weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a > > ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of > > place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little > > indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which > > imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting > > the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean > > more realistic. > > > > Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is > > that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, > > but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. > > > > Jason > >

LOL "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aonepf$nsn4c$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (38 lines)

> Papy AI is sufficient to get you up to speed before a league race ;-) > > /Carl > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aond6m$ofnbk$[email hidden]... > > Papy's AI sucks, period. It seems that most of their customers don't > > notice it, because they never play single player. I have no doubt that > > Papy's multiplayer is excellent, but even NFS has better AI than they > > do. > > > > > > "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:l4Cr9.43335$[email hidden]... > > Bill, really. > > > > We all know how you feel about Papyrus, but that is no reason to say EA > > has a better sim. > > If you think about it, Papy Did make several enhancements over the > > years, even though that slowed as Sierra stepped in. > > Still, it remains to be seen if EA will do the same, thereby changing > > their own habits. > > > > -- > > Tim White > > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > > > > "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and Murder by > > number > > Pace Car :) > > > > > > > >

> Yes, because it actually feels like a car, not like some hover craft :) I know you're joking, but Papy have never, in any of their sims, captured the feeling of a car gripping the road. For me, it's the achilles heel of all their games. If only they could sort this out, then we wouldn't even give ISI's (often dodgy) sims a second look.

"Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l4Cr9.43335$[email hidden]... Bill, really. We all know how you feel about Papyrus, but that is no reason to say EA has a better sim. If you think about it, Papy Did make several enhancements over the years, even though that slowed as Sierra stepped in. Still, it remains to be seen if EA will do the same, thereby changing their own habits. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com If we look at the recent history of ISI and EA we can glean some of the future. F1 2k was a quick and dirty knock-off of SCGT. It brought most of it's problems forwards. F1 2k cs was a minor improvement, but the 2nd full release f1 2k1 saw a near quantum leap forward. and 2k2 built on that. So I would suspect, that now the next title will have a full year of development, it should be a big step up. Having said that, ISI has to date NOT addressed the huge bandwidth needed for multiplayer that has been their worst failing all the way back to SCGT & the overly bumpiness and general in-accurate tracks. Will Nt get better, I would think so..but will they EVER figure out the multiplayer problems?? dave henrie

>"Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote > Murder by number Pace Car :) Heheh good one Bill ;) I've said time and again how the solution is to make the pacecar in a way that it could pass through cars while not being transparent in graphics. Would cure the problem. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"jrdrags" <[email hidden]> wrote > Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are > obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 patches > that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. Why would we give an inferior product a chance? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Jon T" <[email hidden]> wrote > Real racing is that. A game is a game period only and for enjoyment. Callit > a sim to feel better about playing games on the computer if you wish, butit > is a game, not real racing by any stretch of the imagination Then again, ask the same thing to Dale Jr. and many Winston Cup drivers that practice on NR2003 daily to keep up in shape, as it's 95% like real-life racing. They will all tell you that it's racing. Or else, why would Dale Jr. waste his time racing multiplayer in VRW if it wasn't racing? NT2003 is perhaps 50% like reality. The glass is half-empty for me, while half-full for some. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Oh give me a fucking break... how much is EA sucking you off?!?!?! -- M. Main [email hidden] Vice President, RacersEdge Motorsports Inc. Challenges are inevitable, Defeat is optional... www.Racers-Edge.net #69 2002 LoA/CoA Chevy Monte Carlo Sim-racecar www.LordsOfAcid.com / www.ChildrenOfAcid.com "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Yes, because it actually feels like a car, not like some hover craft :) "Jon T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aolakl$137p$[email hidden]... > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Jason > > It ain't no GPL ! > >

Well.... Todd Bodine is in WC you know...LOL -- M. Main [email hidden] Vice President, RacersEdge Motorsports Inc. Challenges are inevitable, Defeat is optional... www.Racers-Edge.net #69 2002 LoA/CoA Chevy Monte Carlo Sim-racecar www.LordsOfAcid.com / www.ChildrenOfAcid.com "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Xoqr9.65376$[email hidden]... "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > wrote: > > >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through > the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate? I just ran a full lap at > Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide. Beautiful work. > > Jason So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real Nascar racing is a GOOD thing? 4 wide down the main straight at Pocono, but that's it...and 3 wide at the Esses...nobody in WC has brass balls that big... dave henrie

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. -- M. Main [email hidden] Vice President, RacersEdge Motorsports Inc. Challenges are inevitable, Defeat is optional... www.Racers-Edge.net #69 2002 LoA/CoA Chevy Monte Carlo Sim-racecar www.LordsOfAcid.com / www.ChildrenOfAcid.com "Jon T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aone7c$2ep7$[email hidden]... . > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > track. Lol.....like these two things are identical. I watched the race on TV and damned if I'm not shocked taking the car on the track.................................... Real racing is that. A game is a game period only and for enjoyment. Call it a sim to feel better about playing games on the computer if you wish, but it is a game, not real racing by any stretch of the imagination Unless you work as a professional race car driver for a Winston Cup team and have many years experience doing so, well then my friend your blowing smoke outta your ass. If someone likes the game good if not thats fine too. Its all about what one enjoys. My .opinion, and in my world its the only opinion that counts. Adios !

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:31:12 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You didn't by any chance have all the aids on did you? If it's anything >like the F1 games, they all default to on. Nah. I have to admit that if I took the time to edit stuff to remove the wheel/hands and switch to high-frequency physics but left some aids on I'd feel like an idiot. =) Jason

So you condemn Papy for doing this when EA were the ones that invented it? -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "jrdrags" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TBCr9.34633$[email hidden]... > Jason, > Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are > obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 patches > that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was obvious from earlier > posts before the game was released. So, I will leave N4 on my harddrive for > my little boy to play with, while I will move on and try something > different. Actually having more fun right now with the Lemans mod for F1 > 2002. And, like Heat, I will support anyone that goes head to head with Papy > and their $50.00 patches. > Thanks for the rant > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > > wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is > > good and bad about the sim. > > > > 1. Graphics > > > > If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias > > causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed > > Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it > > look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the > > same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you > > use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and > > oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much > > longer than a real WC stock car. > > > > The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the > > side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 > > but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no > > damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at > > over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after > > being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the > > axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the > > front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit > > that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, > > would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being > > there. > > > > N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture > > realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second > > faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 > > does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some > > classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 > > car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. > > > > The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you > > can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file > > and everything looks much much better...except that the default > > cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the > > windshield, but YMMV. > > > > 2. Sound > > > > Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being > > Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. > > > > The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were > > recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my > > bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, > > they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the > > standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward > > silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the > > announcing. > > > > Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds > > are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like > > they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, > > it's that bad. > > > > 3. Layout/Presentation > > > > The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen > > there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most > > things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find. > > Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no > > paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires > > going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time > > consuming process. > > > > The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons > > and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. > > > > The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace > > lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be > > prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a > > short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto > > pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to > > return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and > > you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. > > > > The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. > > On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at > > that point, so it could be what they're going for. > > > > Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If > > you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. > > > > 4. Track Modelling > > > > Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, > > and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at > > the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little > > bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously appalling. The > > off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really > > expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off. > > > > Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at > > the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really > > quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. > > > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > > track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the > > window, you won't need 'em here. > > > > 5. Physics > > > > First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in > > the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the > > flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. > > > > Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at > > high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, > > which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't > > worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at > > Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the > > turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. > > > > Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks > > in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be tough > > flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels > > are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. > > > > As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The > > polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts > > at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at > > 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. > > > > GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the > > threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the > > surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd > > also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel > > more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank > > glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap > > around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation of > > weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a > > ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of > > place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little > > indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which > > imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting > > the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean > > more realistic. > > > > Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is > > that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, > > but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. > > > > Jason > >

Yep. I was going to get it this morning and see what it was like. I already have the X-Box version and I'll just leave it at that. Thanks for the review. -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "Philster" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dVHr9.7420$[email hidden]... > Actually, his review is really spot on. Too bad I can't return the game. > > -- > Philippe "Philster" Sergerie > "jrdrags" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:TBCr9.34633$[email hidden]... > > Jason, > > Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are > > obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 patches > > that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was obvious from > earlier > > posts before the game was released. So, I will leave N4 on my harddrive > for > > my little boy to play with, while I will move on and try something > > different. Actually having more fun right now with the Lemans mod for F1 > > 2002. And, like Heat, I will support anyone that goes head to head with > Papy > > and their $50.00 patches. > > Thanks for the rant > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > > > wrote: > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is > > > good and bad about the sim. > > > > > > 1. Graphics > > > > > > If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias > > > causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed > > > Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it > > > look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the > > > same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you > > > use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and > > > oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much > > > longer than a real WC stock car. > > > > > > The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the > > > side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 > > > but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no > > > damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at > > > over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after > > > being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the > > > axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the > > > front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit > > > that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, > > > would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being > > > there. > > > > > > N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture > > > realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second > > > faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 > > > does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some > > > classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 > > > car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. > > > > > > The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you > > > can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file > > > and everything looks much much better...except that the default > > > cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the > > > windshield, but YMMV. > > > > > > 2. Sound > > > > > > Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being > > > Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. > > > > > > The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were > > > recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my > > > bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, > > > they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the > > > standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward > > > silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the > > > announcing. > > > > > > Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds > > > are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like > > > they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, > > > it's that bad. > > > > > > 3. Layout/Presentation > > > > > > The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen > > > there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most > > > things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find. > > > Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no > > > paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires > > > going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time > > > consuming process. > > > > > > The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons > > > and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. > > > > > > The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace > > > lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be > > > prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a > > > short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto > > > pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to > > > return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and > > > you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. > > > > > > The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. > > > On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at > > > that point, so it could be what they're going for. > > > > > > Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If > > > you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. > > > > > > 4. Track Modelling > > > > > > Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, > > > and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at > > > the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little > > > bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously appalling. The > > > off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really > > > expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off. > > > > > > Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at > > > the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really > > > quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. > > > > > > If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > > > TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > > > track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the > > > window, you won't need 'em here. > > > > > > 5. Physics > > > > > > First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in > > > the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the > > > flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. > > > > > > Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at > > > high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, > > > which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't > > > worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at > > > Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the > > > turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. > > > > > > Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks > > > in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be tough > > > flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels > > > are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. > > > > > > As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The > > > polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts > > > at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at > > > 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. > > > > > > GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the > > > threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the > > > surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd > > > also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel > > > more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank > > > glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap > > > around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation of > > > weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a > > > ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of > > > place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little > > > indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which > > > imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting > > > the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean > > > more realistic. > > > > > > Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is > > > that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, > > > but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > >

Brian Tate wrote: > > So you condemn Papy for doing this when EA were the ones that invented it? Didn't know you Beta tested for EA Brian ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

If you didn't like Heat, don't buy this game. It is very Heat-like, IMHO. Todd "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Well, I thank him as well, but in the other direction, based on what he mentioned along with what some others have mentioned, I will definitely pass on this one. I wasn't impressed with the screen shots, wasn't impressed with Heat, and now know I would not be impressed with this game. Thanks for the detailed report Jason, Don Burnette jrdrags wrote:

Quoted text (164 lines)

> Jason, > Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are > obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 > patches that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was > obvious from earlier posts before the game was released. So, I will > leave N4 on my harddrive for my little boy to play with, while I will > move on and try something different. Actually having more fun right > now with the Lemans mod for F1 2002. And, like Heat, I will support > anyone that goes head to head with Papy and their $50.00 patches. > Thanks for the rant > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) >> wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >> Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is >> good and bad about the sim. >> >> 1. Graphics >> >> If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias >> causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed >> Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it >> look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the >> same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you >> use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and >> oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much >> longer than a real WC stock car. >> >> The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the >> side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 >> but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no >> damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at >> over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after >> being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the >> axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the >> front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle >> bit that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, >> would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being >> there. >> >> N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture >> realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second >> faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 >> does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some >> classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 >> car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. >> >> The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you >> can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file >> and everything looks much much better...except that the default >> cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the >> windshield, but YMMV. >> >> 2. Sound >> >> Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being >> Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. >> >> The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were >> recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my >> bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, >> they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the >> standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward >> silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the >> announcing. >> >> Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds >> are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like >> they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, >> it's that bad. >> >> 3. Layout/Presentation >> >> The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen >> there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but >> most things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to >> find. Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, >> there's no paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) >> requires going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a >> time consuming process. >> >> The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons >> and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. >> >> The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace >> lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen >> be prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in >> even a short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap >> and/or auto pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's >> going to return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO >> GO GO" and you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. >> >> The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. >> On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at >> that point, so it could be what they're going for. >> >> Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If >> you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. >> >> 4. Track Modelling >> >> Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, >> and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at >> the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the >> little bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously >> appalling. The off-track details are of course just as bad, but you >> can't really expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far >> off. >> >> Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at >> the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really >> quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. >> >> If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on >> TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the >> track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out >> the window, you won't need 'em here. >> >> 5. Physics >> >> First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed >> in the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the >> flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. >> >> Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at >> high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, >> which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't >> worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at >> Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the >> turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. >> >> Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the >> cracks in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be >> tough flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear >> wheels are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. >> >> As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The >> polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor >> attempts at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the >> ground at 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. >> >> GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the >> threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the >> surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd >> also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel >> more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank >> glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to >> snap around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation >> of weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a >> ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of >> place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little >> indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, >> which imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when >> putting the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case >> doesn't mean more realistic. >> >> Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is >> that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, >> but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. >> >> Jason

Yep. Started when I bought the Madden PC products for the first time. The PC is just and afterthought for EA. Their console versions of their games are much better than the same ones for the PC. -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Brian Tate wrote: > > > > So you condemn Papy for doing this when EA were the ones that invented it? > > Didn't know you Beta tested for EA Brian ? > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

Brian Tate wrote: > > Yep. Started when I bought the Madden PC products for the first time. > > The PC is just and afterthought for EA. Their console versions of their > games are much better than the same ones for the PC. Guess we know who's fault it is that EA games suck then :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

I could say I have had a hand in it. :> -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Brian Tate wrote: > > > > Yep. Started when I bought the Madden PC products for the first time. > > > > The PC is just and afterthought for EA. Their console versions of their > > games are much better than the same ones for the PC. > > Guess we know who's fault it is that EA games suck then :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

Brian has been at fault for many of the problems in the sim racing community Goy. =) I heard a rumor he was driving the bus that ran over Frank while he was riding his bike. LOLOL -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc

Then they say... "See! PC Gaming IS Dead. We develop only for consoles now". Well, in EA's case, maybe that ain't so bad :) -Larry "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%%pr9.29905$[email hidden]...

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> Take it back. If you don't, then you are supporting EA and letting them > know you like it. This goes for anyone else who purchases it and dislikes > it. TAKE IT BACK!!!!!!! If the store won't take it back, send it back > to EA. They have a satisfaction guarantee. > > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > > > Yes, it is that bad. > > > > As far as the handling goes, it's significantly worse than the FIA > > GTv3 mod. Speaking of that mod, apparently Tiburion didn't have any > > luck getting rid of the "smoke/dirt/rain inside the cockpit" effect > > either. > > > > I'm seriously appalled that I spent $40 on this coaster. On the plus > > side, having everything that annoyed me about the F1 2002 engine > > smacking me straight in the face at every turn (literally) has made me > > feel better about my gradual dislike for that "sim" as well. > > > > Jason > >

I certainly notice it. I've got a junkyard FULL of right-front fenders that they have taken off in their dive-bomb moves at the corners. The AI in Nascar Racing went bad somewhere between NR3 and NR4. I think the engine wasn't the only thing that changed. I believe the AI programmer changed too. -Larry "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aond6m$ofnbk$[email hidden]...

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> Papy's AI sucks, period. It seems that most of their customers don't > notice it, because they never play single player. I have no doubt that > Papy's multiplayer is excellent, but even NFS has better AI than they > do. > > > "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:l4Cr9.43335$[email hidden]... > Bill, really. > > We all know how you feel about Papyrus, but that is no reason to say EA > has a better sim. > If you think about it, Papy Did make several enhancements over the > years, even though that slowed as Sierra stepped in. > Still, it remains to be seen if EA will do the same, thereby changing > their own habits. > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and Murder by > number > Pace Car :) > > >

All I can say is I was maybe hoping this would be a racing game/sim that would bring be back into sim racing after a very long absence and leaving BHMS over a year ago. I also hoped NR2002 would be it to until I got it , then noticed it was the same ole Papy BS racing Sim all over again. As for Thunder, I got it last night about 11 pm est , don't ask where <VBG> and I am not impressed by allot of things in the game at all. But I do like how they let you pull the fender flares in and out and set the toein and out. I actually like the Garage allot but it doesn't seem liek much translates to the track. Oh someone said they couldn't skip the pace lap , yes you can just hit the space bar and it will skip the pace lap altogether. I do like how the two practice sessions are timed like in F1 2002. But overall I'm overly impresssed with the game at all , maybe I just totally against Nascar Sims anymore after having to deal with papy's games for so long , but as for Thunder, Nascar Heat was more realistic than this game is , it seems like a bad attempt to post a arcade game from the consoles and fine tune it into a sim and it didn't work. Anyway Back to Madden, Mafia, WC 3 etc. See ya peace to all Robert GT86 Platts

I thought Heat was pretty darned good. -Larry "JTBurn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> If you didn't like Heat, don't buy this game. It is very Heat-like, IMHO. > > Todd > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > Well, I thank him as well, but in the other direction, based on what he > mentioned along with what some others have mentioned, I will definitely

pass > on this one. I wasn't impressed with the screen shots, wasn't impressedwith

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> Heat, and now know I would not be impressed with this game. > > Thanks for the detailed report Jason, > > Don Burnette > > jrdrags wrote: > > Jason, > > Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are > > obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 > > patches that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was > > obvious from earlier posts before the game was released. So, I will > > leave N4 on my harddrive for my little boy to play with, while I will > > move on and try something different. Actually having more fun right > > now with the Lemans mod for F1 2002. And, like Heat, I will support > > anyone that goes head to head with Papy and their $50.00 patches. > > Thanks for the rant > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > >> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:55:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) > >> wrote: > >> > >> <snip> > >> > >> Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is > >> good and bad about the sim. > >> > >> 1. Graphics > >> > >> If you like F1 2002, you might like these. The default LOD bias > >> causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you. As Ed > >> Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it > >> look like cars are literally on top of you. The graphics feature the > >> same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you > >> use. The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and > >> oversaturated. The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much > >> longer than a real WC stock car. > >> > >> The damage modelling is seriously humorous. Hitting something on the > >> side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002 > >> but also puts a big gray hole in the car. Best I can tell there's no > >> damage to the hood or roof. I've backed the car into the wall at > >> over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after > >> being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the > >> axle. The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the > >> front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle > >> bit that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life, > >> would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being > >> there. > >> > >> N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture > >> realism and graphical clarity. It also runs 30 frames per second > >> faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003 > >> does. NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some > >> classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28 > >> car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's. > >> > >> The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game. However you > >> can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file > >> and everything looks much much better...except that the default > >> cockpit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the > >> windshield, but YMMV. > >> > >> 2. Sound > >> > >> Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being > >> Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop. > >> > >> The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were > >> recorded in my bathroom. Actually, I've done recordings in my > >> bathroom and they were of higher quality. For some curious reason, > >> they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the > >> standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward > >> silence. Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the > >> announcing. > >> > >> Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002. The tire sounds > >> are far inferior to N2002. For the engines it seriously sounds like > >> they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb, > >> it's that bad. > >> > >> 3. Layout/Presentation > >> > >> The menus are horrible. Thankfully on the track selection screen > >> there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but > >> most things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to > >> find. Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, > >> there's no paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) > >> requires going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a > >> time consuming process. > >> > >> The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons > >> and maybe slightly different on-screen placement. > >> > >> The race weekend is annoying. There is no option to use a short pace > >> lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen > >> be prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in > >> even a short race. Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap > >> and/or auto pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's > >> going to return control to you. Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO > >> GO GO" and you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel. > >> > >> The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy. > >> On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at > >> that point, so it could be what they're going for. > >> > >> Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there. If > >> you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like. > >> > >> 4. Track Modelling > >> > >> Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking, > >> and is paved in concrete. Apparently the esses and the outer loop at > >> the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the > >> little bit of banking Bristol has in this game. Seriously > >> appalling. The off-track details are of course just as bad, but you > >> can't really expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far > >> off. > >> > >> Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at > >> the apron, you can drive it without a penalty. Just ran some really > >> quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line. > >> > >> If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on > >> TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the > >> track. Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out > >> the window, you won't need 'em here. > >> > >> 5. Physics > >> > >> First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed > >> in the PLR file. The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the > >> flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat. > >> > >> Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at > >> high speeds is glued to the track. If you do use your brakes here, > >> which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't > >> worry about applying them until you're near the apex. Turn 1 at > >> Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the > >> turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville. > >> > >> Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the > >> cracks in the concrete. I never noticed that before. It must be > >> tough flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear > >> wheels are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal. > >> > >> As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60. The > >> polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor > >> attempts at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the > >> ground at 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps. > >> > >> GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the > >> threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the > >> surprises). To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd > >> also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel > >> more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank > >> glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to > >> snap around. I'm probably wrong tho. As in F1 2002, the sensation > >> of weight transfer is minimal. While this may be acceptable in a > >> ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of > >> place in the hulking behemoths in this game. There is very little > >> indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, > >> which imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when > >> putting the car on the edge. Thankfully, harder in this case > >> doesn't mean more realistic. > >> > >> Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002. An amusing note is > >> that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus, > >> but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file. > >> > >> Jason > >

Would that be considered a fault or a credit? :> -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgZr9.6346$[email hidden]... > Brian has been at fault for many of the problems in the sim racing community > Goy. =) > > I heard a rumor he was driving the bus that ran over Frank while he was > riding his bike. LOLOL > > -- > Scott B. Husted > PA-Scott > ICQ# 4395450 > http://www.Husted.cc > >

Yeah, I should have been more specific. I have no problem with the AI in GPL, it's just NR4 and NR2002 that I don't like. Haven't tried any of the earlier ones. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AJZr9.149734$[email hidden]... > I certainly notice it. > > I've got a junkyard FULL of right-front fenders that they have takenoff in > their dive-bomb moves at the corners. > > The AI in Nascar Racing went bad somewhere between NR3 and NR4. Ithink the > engine wasn't the only thing that changed. I believe the AIprogrammer > changed too. > > -Larry >

Didn't mean to imply that you are an idiot, I was just asking because the physics behavior you are describing sounds like what I would expect from leaving the aids on. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Nah. I have to admit that if I took the time to edit stuff to remove > the wheel/hands and switch to high-frequency physics but left some > aids on I'd feel like an idiot. =) > > Jason

Dale Jr. plays NT2003 now, apparently. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xeMr9.8250$[email hidden]... > > Then again, ask the same thing to Dale Jr. and many Winston Cupdrivers that > practice on NR2003 daily to keep up in shape, as it's 95% likereal-life > racing. They will all tell you that it's racing. Or else, why wouldDale > Jr. waste his time racing multiplayer in VRW if it wasn't racing? > > > NT2003 is perhaps 50% like reality. The glass is half-empty for me,while

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> half-full for some. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

You could just buy it from EB and they have a 7 day return policy.... Otherwise its your mistake (ie. you could have waited for reviews) and i cant see that anyone will take it back. Cool Hand Luke -=87=- "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be? > > Yes, it is that bad. > > As far as the handling goes, it's significantly worse than the FIA > GTv3 mod. Speaking of that mod, apparently Tiburion didn't have any > luck getting rid of the "smoke/dirt/rain inside the cockpit" effect > either. > > I'm seriously appalled that I spent $40 on this coaster. On the plus > side, having everything that annoyed me about the F1 2002 engine > smacking me straight in the face at every turn (literally) has made me > feel better about my gradual dislike for that "sim" as well. > > Jason

>"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote > Dale Jr. plays NT2003 now, apparently. That's just what he is paid to say. Trust me, Dale Jr and several other Winston Cup/BGN drivers use the Nascar line of simulation by Papyrus almost daily, and some of them do it by pure pleasure of it being a different kind of motorsport. I'll tell you, Junior is a bitch when he's on your bumper at Talladega. He spun me once racing me tight for the win back on the NROS 8) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote > I heard a rumor he was driving the bus that ran over Frank while he was > riding his bike. LOLOL I've been investigating this on my own hands for a couple of years. Goy is still my principal suspect ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:58:24 GMT, "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I've got a junkyard FULL of right-front fenders that they have taken off in >their dive-bomb moves at the corners. We need an RPY to LP converter like was available for previous sims. Other than that, most problems with the AI can be fixed via tuning the track.ini files. The default settings create ridiculously aggressive AI that hangs on your bumper. I tend to lower the drafting distance a bit to keep the cars bunched up on the straights and then increase the braking zone distance to spread them apart going into/out of corners. Obviously you don't want to do this on the plate tracks, but most everywhere else works fine. Tuning general AI behavior in N2002 is easier than any sim I've ever played, unfortunately you can't do anything about thel ines (i.e. how slow they are out of 4 at Pocono) but you can fix the car-to-car interaction. Jason

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:12:16 GMT, "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I thought Heat was pretty darned good. Heat is very good. If I were less of a hardcore sim nut, I'd probably still play it, honestly. I find the driving model and track modelling to be far superior to Nascar Thunder 2003, that's for sure. It was by far the best driving Nascar sim when it came out, unfortunately N4 passed it by a few months later. Jason

Brian Tate wrote:

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> > Would that be considered a fault or a credit? :> > > -- > Brian Tate > Communications Officer > CART Toyota Atlantic Championship > http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bgZr9.6346$[email hidden]... > > Brian has been at fault for many of the problems in the sim racing > community > > Goy. =) > > > > I heard a rumor he was driving the bus that ran over Frank while he was > > riding his bike. LOLOL > > > > -- > > Scott B. Husted > > PA-Scott > > ICQ# 4395450 > > http://www.Husted.cc > > > >

Good Q.....ask George :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

ymenard wrote:

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> > >"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I heard a rumor he was driving the bus that ran over Frank while he was > > riding his bike. LOLOL > > I've been investigating this on my own hands for a couple of years. Goy is > still my principal suspect ;)

No, it was Dickie Camshapfwhatsisname....... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Jason Moyer wrote:

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> > On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:58:24 GMT, "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I've got a junkyard FULL of right-front fenders that they have taken off in > >their dive-bomb moves at the corners. > > We need an RPY to LP converter like was available for previous sims.

I wouldn't be too surprised if one surfaced in the future at your fav sim site....... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Well you were at fault, but the sim racing community gives you credit. =) -- Scott B. Husted "PA-Scott" ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:29:43 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >I wouldn't be too surprised if one surfaced in the future at your fav >sim site....... bhmotorsports.com? =) Jason

Jason Moyer wrote:

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> > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:29:43 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I wouldn't be too surprised if one surfaced in the future at your fav > >sim site....... > > bhmotorsports.com?

Low blow Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:12:16 GMT, "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I thought Heat was pretty darned good. > > Heat is very good. If I were less of a hardcore sim nut, I'd probably > still play it, honestly. I find the driving model and track modelling > to be far superior to Nascar Thunder 2003, that's for sure. It was by > far the best driving Nascar sim when it came out, unfortunately N4 > passed it by a few months later. > > Jason

I agree re Heat. It's online mess decided it's fate though, for me. John