F1/CART merger?

Thr Toronto Sun today apparently claimed that Li'l Bernie's buying 51% of CART for FIA....what would be the ramifications of this? -- Colin ICQ 25485061 FFRL Triv: http://ffrl.racesimcentral.com/ FFRL: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/fastfood/ffrl/index.html

Well it is not a merger "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ijt9.369$[email hidden]...

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> Thr Toronto Sun today apparently claimed that Li'l Bernie's buying 51% of > CART for FIA....what would be the ramifications of this? > > -- > > > Colin > ICQ 25485061 > FFRL Triv: http://ffrl.racesimcentral.com/ > FFRL: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/fastfood/ffrl/index.html > > >

The report I read said that Bernie is buying 51%, and Forsythe was buying in up to 25%. The rational is to use CART as a feeder system for F1 and to get more recognition for F1 in the US. Also Bernie's is not too happy with Tony George and is reportedly looking for a way out of the contract. -- Edward Commissioner Middle-Aged Racers Association (MARA) http://members.rogers.com/ecrawford1/mara/maramain.htm "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ijt9.369$[email hidden]... > Thr Toronto Sun today apparently claimed that Li'l Bernie's buying 51% of > CART for FIA....what would be the ramifications of this? > > -- > > > Colin > ICQ 25485061 > FFRL Triv: http://ffrl.racesimcentral.com/ > FFRL: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/fastfood/ffrl/index.html > > >

what happens to F1 when people look at CART and see great racing? pez "EdwardC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Fbkt9.42350$%[email hidden]... > The report I read said that Bernie is buying 51%, and Forsythe was buyingin > up to 25%. The rational is to use CART as a feeder system for F1 and toget > more recognition for F1 in the US. Also Bernie's is not too happy withTony

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> George and is reportedly looking for a way out of the contract. > > -- > Edward > Commissioner > Middle-Aged Racers Association (MARA) > http://members.rogers.com/ecrawford1/mara/maramain.htm > > "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in > message news:3ijt9.369$[email hidden]... > > Thr Toronto Sun today apparently claimed that Li'l Bernie's buying 51%

of

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> > CART for FIA....what would be the ramifications of this? > > > > -- > > > > > > Colin > > ICQ 25485061 > > FFRL Triv: http://ffrl.racesimcentral.com/ > > FFRL: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/fastfood/ffrl/index.html > > > > > > > >

> what happens to F1 when people look at CART and see great racing? Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I can't believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make Monaco look good.

"Damien Smith" wrote... > > what happens to F1 when people look at CART and > > see great racing? > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me > after watching F1. I can't believe how dodgy some > of those CART tracks look. Some of them make Monaco > look good. Hehehe... talk about different taste. F1 tracks look over-sanitized to me. ;-) Racing is supposed to be a bit dirty, a bit ragged Damien... Jan. =---

What do mean by dodgy? Which tracks? Damien Smith wrote:

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>>what happens to F1 when people look at CART and see great racing? > > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I can't > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make Monaco > look good. > > >

> > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. Ican't > > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them makeMonaco > > look good. A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the street circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us'

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ap4rn6$rfukl$[email hidden]...

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> > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I > can't > > > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make > Monaco > > > look good. > > A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the

street > circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' >Still better than F1's "Chicanes-are-everywhere" -- Edward Commissioner Middle-Aged Racers Association (MARA) http://members.rogers.com/ecrawford1/mara/maramain.htm

On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:21:25 GMT, "EdwardC" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The report I read said that Bernie is buying 51%, and Forsythe was buying in >up to 25%. The rational is to use CART as a feeder system for F1 and to get >more recognition for F1 in the US. Also Bernie's is not too happy with Tony >George and is reportedly looking for a way out of the contract. Interesting. Would be cool if they ran a few races with CART as a support series. Would be cooler if F1 raced the modern Long Beach circuit too. =) Jason

Well I suppose if racing quality were judged based on track cost then F1 might win...but it isn't. JB

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> >> > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I >can't >> > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make >Monaco >> > look good. > >A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the street >circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > >

Funny, I think that bumpy old airport is one of the most brilliant racetracks of the past twenty years. ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

"Dan Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > >> > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1.I > >can't > >> > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make > >Monaco > >> > look good. > > > >A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, thestreet

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> >circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > > > > > > > > Funny, I think that bumpy old airport is one of the most brilliant

racetracks > of the past twenty years. > > ----------------------------------------- > Dan Belcher Even my wife, who HATES racing, remembers the Cleveland race with Jacques and Robbie Gordon driving themselves off the pavement, and Robbie cussing on the Radio because Mikey Andrettie Cut his tires with a front wing endplate not ONCE but TWICE!! Ah yes...cleveland is a fine racing enviroment. But clearly it is not the best the US has to offer. I dare anyone to find a more complete track than Mid Ohio. With it's blind corners, elevation changes, fast and slow sections...it is magic(and I'm not talking about the the sim-ports of ICR2) Road Atlanta, Road America two fine high speed circuits...Laguna is...well home of the Corkscrew, a turn that rivals Eau Rouge in complexity(but certainly not in speed) I'm not thrilled with most street courses...although for 20 or 30 years the course at Long Beach has shown you CAN have racing inside a City. But I would take simple Portland over those Chicaned-Nuetered tracks anyday. If you got rid of that Bastard wiggle at the end of Suzuka, they'd have a truly admirable circut. Monza? (it's a ghost of it's former self) and San Marino? With the Senna safety mods, that track is about as exciting as .... as .... Spa? A truly Classic circuit...magnificent UNTIL you reach the end of the lap...what an absolutely awful way to slow the cars down before the grandstands. Modern F1 tracks can be summarized by the newer Nurburging. I watched a DTM race there from last season(on the tv, I didn't attend) and the cars didn't wiggle, didn't bounce, had barely ANY attitude change while negotiating a wide smooth grippy track. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz MAN! Give me one of those tiny tiny bumpy Scottish tracks with BTCC touring cars banging away at each other for lap after lap.. dave henrie

> Funny, I think that bumpy old airport is one of the most brilliantracetracks > of the past twenty years. I will second that. Norman

>Give me > one of those tiny tiny bumpy Scottish tracks with BTCC touring carsbanging > away at each other for lap after lap.. > dave henrie AMEN Brother ! Mikkel

Damien Smith wrote: > > > what happens to F1 when people look at CART and see great racing? > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I can't > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make Monaco > look good. At least they aren't a boring old load of sanitized shite!

Damien Smith wrote:

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> > > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I > can't > > > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make > Monaco > > > look good. > > A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the street > circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us'

Gents, we have us an F1 fuckwitnut to play with. :)

Dan Belcher wrote:

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> > > > >> > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I > >can't > >> > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make > >Monaco > >> > look good. > > > >A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the street > >circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > > > > > > Funny, I think that bumpy old airport is one of the most brilliant racetracks > of the past twenty years.

Agreed.

> Gents, we have us an F1 fuckwitnut to play with. :) No, actually I'm a huge NASCAR fan. I have the utmost respect for the drivers. The way that they go round and round without falling asleep is truly remarkable.

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ap67b3$qungo$[email hidden]... > > Gents, we have us an F1 fuckwitnut to play with. :) > > No, actually I'm a huge NASCAR fan. I have the utmost respect for thedrivers. > The way that they go round and round without falling asleep is trulyremarkable. > You didn't see Tony Stewart then after the last race did you? Looked like he was suffering from Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. :) dave henrie

Jason Moyer wrote: > Interesting. Would be cool if they ran a few races with CART as a > support series. Would be cooler if F1 raced the modern Long Beach > circuit too. =) It would seem Bernard is merely waiting the remainder of the Indy contract for such to happen. (if the rumors have any truth to them) -jde

There is nothing worse than watching a super smooth, over chicaned racetrack with so much runoff you could land a few aeroplanes. Racing is supposed to be dangerous, im not saying i want to see people die or get hurt, but a track that is rough (within reason), and a few dangerous parts adds character to it, unlike the current f1 spec tracks Cool Hand Luke -=87=- "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ap4rn6$rfukl$[email hidden]...

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> > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I > can't > > > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make > Monaco > > > look good. > > A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the

street > circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > >

????HUH???? "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ap4lou$r6act$[email hidden]... > > what happens to F1 when people look at CART and see great racing? > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. Ican't > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them makeMonaco > look good. > > >

Cleveland airport has some of the best racing. You see in CART the RACING is what matters, not how pretty the surroundings are. Is that what F1 fans are looking at when they watch the race and say "WOW, that was a great race". Are they really saying that it was a good looking spectacle? I guess I will take a great RACE(with on track passing). No wonder the parades are tolerated across the big pond, I guess I didn't understand what you guys were actually looking at. The tracks sure are pretty though! "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ap4rn6$rfukl$[email hidden]...

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> > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I > can't > > > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make > Monaco > > > look good. > > A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the

street > circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:doxt9.72202$%d2.30224@sccrnsc01...

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> > "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ap67b3$qungo$[email hidden]... > > > Gents, we have us an F1 fuckwitnut to play with. :) > > > > No, actually I'm a huge NASCAR fan. I have the utmost respect for the > drivers. > > The way that they go round and round without falling asleep is truly > remarkable. > > > You didn't see Tony Stewart then after the last race did you? Looked > like he was suffering from Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. > :) > dave henrie >

Hell, he probably was. I know I was and I was outside of a car, between turns 3 and 4 about 18 rows up... Besides, racing in circles on appears boring only to the uninformed. Get into YOUR car, get into a line of gridlock moving 180mph and see how boring and mundane you think it is. Open wheel diehard fans really can't appreciate what its like to race wheel to wheel at high speeds for more than the hour and a half that most open wheel races last, at the safe distance of nose to tail, in the follow the leader style that is pointy car racing.

What about Elkhart Lake right in my back yard. Now that course out shines EVERY F1 course hands down. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uMnt9.62805$[email hidden]...

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> > "Dan Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > >> > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. > I > > >can't > > >> > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them

make

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> > >Monaco > > >> > look good. > > > > > >A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the > street > > >circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny, I think that bumpy old airport is one of the most brilliant > racetracks > > of the past twenty years. > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Dan Belcher > Even my wife, who HATES racing, remembers the Cleveland race with > Jacques and Robbie Gordon driving themselves off the pavement, and Robbie > cussing on the Radio because Mikey Andrettie Cut his tires with a front

wing > endplate not ONCE but TWICE!! Ah yes...cleveland is a fine racing > enviroment. > But clearly it is not the best the US has to offer. I dare anyone tofind > a more complete track than Mid Ohio. With it's blind corners, elevation > changes, fast and slow sections...it is magic(and I'm not talking aboutthe > the sim-ports of ICR2) > Road Atlanta, Road America two fine high speed circuits...Laguna > is...well home of the Corkscrew, a turn that rivals Eau Rouge in > complexity(but certainly not in speed) > I'm not thrilled with most street courses...although for 20 or 30years > the course at Long Beach has shown you CAN have racing inside a City. ButI > would take simple Portland over those Chicaned-Nuetered tracks anyday.If > you got rid of that Bastard wiggle at the end of Suzuka, they'd have atruly > admirable circut. Monza? (it's a ghost of it's former self) and San > Marino? With the Senna safety mods, that track is about as exciting as.... > as .... > Spa? A truly Classic circuit...magnificent UNTIL you reach the end ofthe > lap...what an absolutely awful way to slow the cars down before the > grandstands. > Modern F1 tracks can be summarized by the newer Nurburging. Iwatched > a DTM race there from last season(on the tv, I didn't attend) and the cars > didn't wiggle, didn't bounce, had barely ANY attitude change while > negotiating a wide smooth grippy track. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz MAN! Give me > one of those tiny tiny bumpy Scottish tracks with BTCC touring carsbanging > away at each other for lap after lap.. > dave henrie > > >

I still don't understand why CART doesn't go to Road Atlanta. The Trans-Am race there was great to watch (then again I love the trans-Am series so I may be a little biased there) Dave Henrie wrote:

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> "Dan Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>>>>Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. >>>> > I > >>>can't >>> >>>>>believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make >>>> >>>Monaco >>> >>>>>look good. >>>> >>>A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the >> > street > >>>circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' >>> >>> >> >> >> >>Funny, I think that bumpy old airport is one of the most brilliant > > racetracks > >>of the past twenty years. >> >>----------------------------------------- >>Dan Belcher > > Even my wife, who HATES racing, remembers the Cleveland race with > Jacques and Robbie Gordon driving themselves off the pavement, and Robbie > cussing on the Radio because Mikey Andrettie Cut his tires with a front wing > endplate not ONCE but TWICE!! Ah yes...cleveland is a fine racing > enviroment. > But clearly it is not the best the US has to offer. I dare anyone to find > a more complete track than Mid Ohio. With it's blind corners, elevation > changes, fast and slow sections...it is magic(and I'm not talking about the > the sim-ports of ICR2) > Road Atlanta, Road America two fine high speed circuits...Laguna > is...well home of the Corkscrew, a turn that rivals Eau Rouge in > complexity(but certainly not in speed) > I'm not thrilled with most street courses...although for 20 or 30 years > the course at Long Beach has shown you CAN have racing inside a City. But I > would take simple Portland over those Chicaned-Nuetered tracks anyday. If > you got rid of that Bastard wiggle at the end of Suzuka, they'd have a truly > admirable circut. Monza? (it's a ghost of it's former self) and San > Marino? With the Senna safety mods, that track is about as exciting as .... > as .... > Spa? A truly Classic circuit...magnificent UNTIL you reach the end of the > lap...what an absolutely awful way to slow the cars down before the > grandstands. > Modern F1 tracks can be summarized by the newer Nurburging. I watched > a DTM race there from last season(on the tv, I didn't attend) and the cars > didn't wiggle, didn't bounce, had barely ANY attitude change while > negotiating a wide smooth grippy track. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz MAN! Give me > one of those tiny tiny bumpy Scottish tracks with BTCC touring cars banging > away at each other for lap after lap.. > dave henrie > > >

"EdwardC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<vrmt9.47587$[email hidden]>...

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> "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ap4rn6$rfukl$[email hidden]... > > > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watching F1. I > can't > > > > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of them make > Monaco > > > > look good. > > > > A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, the > street > > circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > > > Still better than F1's "Chicanes-are-everywhere"

Those aren't chicanes, those are the cars!

What I would like to see is this: Take the top six cars in F1 (either the lead driver from the top six teams, the top 3 team, or the top six from the points standindings) and put them on a F1 track with the top 6 CART teams (same criteria as choosing the F1 teams). Run them in a match race. Then take the same 12 cars and drivers and put them on a CART track (probably mid-ohio) THEn we could see which are the better cars and drivers. Colin Harris wrote:

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> Thr Toronto Sun today apparently claimed that Li'l Bernie's buying 51% of > CART for FIA....what would be the ramifications of this? > > -- > > > Colin > ICQ 25485061 > FFRL Triv: http://ffrl.racesimcentral.com/ > FFRL: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/fastfood/ffrl/index.html > > >

Brad Larocque wrote: > I still don't understand why CART doesn't go to Road Atlanta. Panoz has been unwilling to pay CART's inflated sanctioning fees, as he didn't feel he'd be getting the bang for his buck. -jde

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:47:47 -0400, "J.D. Ellis" <[email hidden]> wrote: >It would seem Bernard is merely waiting the remainder of the Indy >contract for such to happen. (if the rumors have any truth to them) Interesting. Well, if Bernie and Pook team up, I would guess that would remove any roadblocks, no? I'm assuming Pook is still the "owner" of that event, unless he's handed it off to someone. Jason

That bumpy old concrete airport circuit has held some of the most exciting races I have ever seen. "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ap4rn6$rfukl$[email hidden]... > > > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watchingF1. I > can't > > > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of themmake > Monaco > > > look good. > > A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general, thestreet > circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > >

> Take the top six cars in F1 (either the lead driver from the top six > teams, the top 3 team, or the top six from the points standindings) and > put them on a F1 track with the top 6 CART teams (same criteria as > choosing the F1 teams). Run them in a match race. Then take the same 12 > cars and drivers and put them on a CART track (probably mid-ohio) THEn > we could see which are the better cars and drivers. Erm...what are you saying? Everyone knows that CARTs use caveman technology compared to F1. What would it prove? I believe the F1s were something like 7 seconds quicker in lap times at Montreal. As for the drivers, well, I think it's possible for a class driver to emerge from any series.

Dover Motorsports Inc. now owns the LBGP. http://www.longbeachgp.com/ -- don ------------------------------------- BAPOM Alternative Program Covers for GPL http://www.trilon.com/bapom/ "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:47:47 -0400, "J.D. Ellis" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >It would seem Bernard is merely waiting the remainder of the Indy > >contract for such to happen. (if the rumors have any truth to them) > > Interesting. Well, if Bernie and Pook team up, I would guess that > would remove any roadblocks, no? I'm assuming Pook is still the > "owner" of that event, unless he's handed it off to someone. > > Jason

Well, I love Cleveland too, but I have also come to appreciate the city tracks. The tight turns and chicanes are a great setup for the dive bomb pass into the braking zone. Properly done, it can be both very effective and very exciting. Also, as someone here once said, it's like a bunch of little drag races connected together. Only he saw that as a bad thing, and I see it as a good thing. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uMnt9.62805$[email hidden]... > > "Dan Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > >> > Dunno, CART always looks like amateur hour to me after watchingF1. > I > > >can't > > >> > believe how dodgy some of those CART tracks look. Some of themmake > > >Monaco > > >> > look good. > > > > > >A certain bumpy old concrete airport comes to mind. In general,the

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> street > > >circuits look like they were set up by 'racetracks-are-us' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny, I think that bumpy old airport is one of the most brilliant > racetracks > > of the past twenty years. > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Dan Belcher > Even my wife, who HATES racing, remembers the Cleveland race with > Jacques and Robbie Gordon driving themselves off the pavement, and

Robbie > cussing on the Radio because Mikey Andrettie Cut his tires with afront wing > endplate not ONCE but TWICE!! Ah yes...cleveland is a fine racing > enviroment. > But clearly it is not the best the US has to offer. I dare anyoneto find > a more complete track than Mid Ohio. With it's blind corners,elevation > changes, fast and slow sections...it is magic(and I'm not talkingabout the > the sim-ports of ICR2) > Road Atlanta, Road America two fine high speed circuits...Laguna > is...well home of the Corkscrew, a turn that rivals Eau Rouge in > complexity(but certainly not in speed) > I'm not thrilled with most street courses...although for 20 or 30years > the course at Long Beach has shown you CAN have racing inside a City.But I > would take simple Portland over those Chicaned-Nuetered tracksanyday. If > you got rid of that Bastard wiggle at the end of Suzuka, they'd have atruly > admirable circut. Monza? (it's a ghost of it's former self) and San > Marino? With the Senna safety mods, that track is about as excitingas .... > as .... > Spa? A truly Classic circuit...magnificent UNTIL you reach the endof the > lap...what an absolutely awful way to slow the cars down before the > grandstands. > Modern F1 tracks can be summarized by the newer Nurburging. Iwatched > a DTM race there from last season(on the tv, I didn't attend) and thecars > didn't wiggle, didn't bounce, had barely ANY attitude change while > negotiating a wide smooth grippy track. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz MAN!Give me > one of those tiny tiny bumpy Scottish tracks with BTCC touring carsbanging > away at each other for lap after lap.. > dave henrie > > >

True but it would be like an open wheel IROC kind of thing. Except the drivers get to use their regular equipment. The fundamentals of the cars aren't that different. Open wheels, front and rear wings. Just the technology under that (eg F1's over use of electronics and computers). On some of the tracks (granted street circuits come to mind) that CART picked up after F1 left them (eg. Detroit and Long Beach.), the CART cars seemed to be much more entertaining to watch. Then out of curiosity, how would the two cars compare at a place like Elhart Lake. As for Montreal, who knows what next year will be like. Maybe the CART cars will have much quicker lap times now that the drivers have run there and kind of know the place better. Look at the USGP. The pole timee in 2001 was 3 seconds faster than the year before because the drivers and teams knew the place. Overall what I am saying is make a match race kind of like when Donovan Bailey went against that American runner with the gold shoes (YIKES this could start a war of another kind) Damien Smith wrote:

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>>Take the top six cars in F1 (either the lead driver from the top six >>teams, the top 3 team, or the top six from the points standindings) and >>put them on a F1 track with the top 6 CART teams (same criteria as >>choosing the F1 teams). Run them in a match race. Then take the same 12 >>cars and drivers and put them on a CART track (probably mid-ohio) THEn >>we could see which are the better cars and drivers. > > > Erm...what are you saying? Everyone knows that CARTs use caveman technology > compared to F1. What would it prove? I believe the F1s were something like > 7 seconds quicker in lap times at Montreal. As for the drivers, well, I > think it's possible for a class driver to emerge from any series. > >

"Wayne Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ap6g72$h4u$[email hidden]... > What about Elkhart Lake right in my back yard. Now that course out shines > EVERY F1 course hands down. > pssst Wayne...I DID mention Elkhart....whaddya think Road America is???? :) dave henrie

"Brad Larocque" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> True but it would be like an open wheel IROC kind of thing. Except the > drivers get to use their regular equipment. The fundamentals of the cars > aren't that different. Open wheels, front and rear wings. Just the > technology under that (eg F1's over use of electronics and computers). > On some of the tracks (granted street circuits come to mind) that CART > picked up after F1 left them (eg. Detroit and Long Beach.), the CART > cars seemed to be much more entertaining to watch. Then out of > curiosity, how would the two cars compare at a place like Elhart Lake. > As for Montreal, who knows what next year will be like. Maybe the CART > cars will have much quicker lap times now that the drivers have run > there and kind of know the place better. Look at the USGP. The pole > timee in 2001 was 3 seconds faster than the year before because the > drivers and teams knew the place.

The biggest problem is the brakes. F1 carbon brakes are just sooooooooooo much more effective than the steel Cart brakes. No Matter how fast each car is....they still have to stop and there, the F1 cars have a HUGE advantage. Now take those F1 cars and run them at CALIFORNIA. The drag coeficient alone of the F1 chassis will make them look like bricks. Even with a 2001 Hockenheim wing package, the F1 tub has more 'built in' downforce. They could never trim the cars out enough without major modifications. On any roadcourse the F1 car will win, be it a tight track like Mid Ohio or an open screamer like Elkhart Lake(Road America) due to braking, and acceleration advantages. But put them on a BIG oval and you will see 6 F1 cars lapped in fairly short order. I wonder how many laps an F1 engine would last at 19K(or k?) rpms and no lifting???? > Dave Henrie

I admit I always did wonder what F1 cars would be like on ovals. Thanks for the info on brakes Dave, I didn't know about the carbons/steel difference. Dave Henrie wrote:

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> "Brad Larocque" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>True but it would be like an open wheel IROC kind of thing. Except the >>drivers get to use their regular equipment. The fundamentals of the cars >>aren't that different. Open wheels, front and rear wings. Just the >>technology under that (eg F1's over use of electronics and computers). >>On some of the tracks (granted street circuits come to mind) that CART >>picked up after F1 left them (eg. Detroit and Long Beach.), the CART >>cars seemed to be much more entertaining to watch. Then out of >>curiosity, how would the two cars compare at a place like Elhart Lake. >>As for Montreal, who knows what next year will be like. Maybe the CART >>cars will have much quicker lap times now that the drivers have run >>there and kind of know the place better. Look at the USGP. The pole >>timee in 2001 was 3 seconds faster than the year before because the >>drivers and teams knew the place. > > > > The biggest problem is the brakes. F1 carbon brakes are just sooooooooooo > much more effective than the steel Cart brakes. No Matter how fast each car > is....they still have to stop and there, the F1 cars have a HUGE advantage. > Now take those F1 cars and run them at CALIFORNIA. The drag coeficient > alone of the F1 chassis will make them look like bricks. Even with a 2001 > Hockenheim wing package, the F1 tub has more 'built in' downforce. They > could never trim the cars out enough without major modifications. > On any roadcourse the F1 car will win, be it a tight track like Mid Ohio > or an open screamer like > Elkhart Lake(Road America) due to braking, and acceleration advantages. > But put them on a BIG oval and you will see 6 F1 cars lapped in fairly short > order. I wonder how many laps an F1 engine would last at 19K(or k?) rpms > and no lifting???? > > Dave Henrie > >

The major problem with such a series concept is the F1's are about 400 lbs lighter, with more downforce and just as much power (now that CART boost has been reduced from the 900hp+ days). No contest, on any track, I'm afraid. Wouldn't be much fun for DaMatta & Co. to be vainly chasing after the Minardis, a lap or two down. SB "Brad Larocque" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I admit I always did wonder what F1 cars would be like on ovals. Thanks > for the info on brakes Dave, I didn't know about the carbons/steel > difference. > > Dave Henrie wrote: > > "Brad Larocque" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > >>True but it would be like an open wheel IROC kind of thing. Except the > >>drivers get to use their regular equipment. The fundamentals of the cars > >>aren't that different. Open wheels, front and rear wings. Just the > >>technology under that (eg F1's over use of electronics and computers). > >>On some of the tracks (granted street circuits come to mind) that CART > >>picked up after F1 left them (eg. Detroit and Long Beach.), the CART > >>cars seemed to be much more entertaining to watch. Then out of > >>curiosity, how would the two cars compare at a place like Elhart Lake. > >>As for Montreal, who knows what next year will be like. Maybe the CART > >>cars will have much quicker lap times now that the drivers have run > >>there and kind of know the place better. Look at the USGP. The pole > >>timee in 2001 was 3 seconds faster than the year before because the > >>drivers and teams knew the place. > > > > > > > > The biggest problem is the brakes. F1 carbon brakes are just

sooooooooooo > > much more effective than the steel Cart brakes. No Matter how fast eachcar > > is....they still have to stop and there, the F1 cars have a HUGEadvantage. > > Now take those F1 cars and run them at CALIFORNIA. The drag coeficient > > alone of the F1 chassis will make them look like bricks. Even with a2001 > > Hockenheim wing package, the F1 tub has more 'built in' downforce. They > > could never trim the cars out enough without major modifications. > > On any roadcourse the F1 car will win, be it a tight track like MidOhio > > or an open screamer like > > Elkhart Lake(Road America) due to braking, and accelerationadvantages. > > But put them on a BIG oval and you will see 6 F1 cars lapped in fairlyshort > > order. I wonder how many laps an F1 engine would last at 19K(or k?)rpms > > and no lifting???? > > > > Dave Henrie > > > > >

Pook has nothing to do with the Long Beach Grand Prix race. Also, Pook and Toyota (Sponsor of the race) are in a pretty big pissing match now. Don't be surprised to see Formula Crapwagon at Long Beach in the future.

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> > >It would seem Bernard is merely waiting the remainder of the Indy > >contract for such to happen. (if the rumors have any truth to them) > > Interesting. Well, if Bernie and Pook team up, I would guess that > would remove any roadblocks, no? I'm assuming Pook is still the > "owner" of that event, unless he's handed it off to someone. > > Jason

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 03:07:20 GMT, Brad Larocque <[email hidden]> wrote: >I admit I always did wonder what F1 cars would be like on ovals. Thanks >for the info on brakes Dave, I didn't know about the carbons/steel >difference. The difference between carbon and steel rotors actually isn't that big in reality. I don't know what regulations CART has regarding brakes, but they sure brake worse than the F1's(in the incar footage at Montreal the champcars braked at the 200 sign before the chicane, whereas the F1's at about 130-150m). If champcars are bound to have standardized brakes it's probably there the difference lies, that and the extra 200kg. Otherwise you make brakes that fully use the traction of the tyres at any time, be it carbon or steel. The notion that you would have lots longer brake distances just because you change to steel discs is just a pipe dream. The maximum friction isn't the major advantage of carbon fiber brakes, the absolutely biggest gain is that they are 3-4kg lighter than steel brakes. In fact I've heard that the complete brake assembly on one wheel weighs about a kilogram. All wheels combined, you save as much as 15kg in _unsprung_ weight, which makes a _lot_ of difference in roadholding capabilities. The other advantages like no fading, heat resistance and high tolerance for abuse is comparatively insignificant. And the gain also outweighs the disadvantages, like progressiveness and that you have to keep the temperatures up(well... that goes for most racing brakes, but not to the same extent). I don't like the talk of reducing the brake efficiency like so many do. You _should_ have brakes that fully uses the tyre traction. Otherwise you could aswell allow ABS, because you wouldn't be able to lock up the wheels anyhow! If the brake distance is to be longer, you reduce the grip, not the brakes. /Magnus

"Magnus Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 03:07:20 GMT, Brad Larocque <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I admit I always did wonder what F1 cars would be like on ovals. Thanks > >for the info on brakes Dave, I didn't know about the carbons/steel > >difference. > > The difference between carbon and steel rotors actually isn't that big > in reality. I don't know what regulations CART has regarding brakes, > but they sure brake worse than the F1's(in the incar footage at > Montreal the champcars braked at the 200 sign before the chicane, > whereas the F1's at about 130-150m). If champcars are bound to have > standardized brakes it's probably there the difference lies, that and > the extra 200kg. Otherwise you make brakes that fully use the traction > of the tyres at any time, be it carbon or steel. The notion that you > would have lots longer brake distances just because you change to > steel discs is just a pipe dream.

200 kg is a LOT! Is that how much heavier champcars are than F1? If so it goes a long way to explain how much earlier they have to brake.

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> > The difference between carbon and steel rotors actually isn't that big > > in reality. I don't know what regulations CART has regarding brakes, > > but they sure brake worse than the F1's(in the incar footage at > > Montreal the champcars braked at the 200 sign before the chicane, > > whereas the F1's at about 130-150m). If champcars are bound to have > > standardized brakes it's probably there the difference lies, that and > > the extra 200kg. Otherwise you make brakes that fully use the traction > > of the tyres at any time, be it carbon or steel. The notion that you > > would have lots longer brake distances just because you change to > > steel discs is just a pipe dream.

In fact the last time steel brakes were tried (as far as I know) was in 1999 by Zanardi/Williams and they found they actually offered slightly more stopping power than carbon. Williams still prefered carbon due to the reduction in unsprung mass and rotational inertia however. As to the bit about ABS, I think it is pretty hard (impossible?) to lock the wheels up at high speed/downforce, the drivers have to ease off the brakes as the downforce reduces with speed to stop locking up. I believe CARTs greater braking distance is down to the extra mass, less grip/downforce, and less drag. Paul

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:13:18 -0400, "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Pook has nothing to do with the Long Beach Grand Prix race. Also, Pook and >Toyota (Sponsor of the race) are in a pretty big pissing match now. Don't >be surprised to see Formula Crapwagon at Long Beach in the future. That's pretty bizarre since he's the person who thought it would be a good idea to race cars there in the first place. That said, with the lack of CART sims at least if it moves to F1 there's a chance in hell we'll be able to drive it finally. Jason

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:05:37 +0100, "Paul Laidlaw" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> > The difference between carbon and steel rotors actually isn't that big >> > in reality. I don't know what regulations CART has regarding brakes, >> > but they sure brake worse than the F1's(in the incar footage at >> > Montreal the champcars braked at the 200 sign before the chicane, >> > whereas the F1's at about 130-150m). If champcars are bound to have >> > standardized brakes it's probably there the difference lies, that and >> > the extra 200kg. Otherwise you make brakes that fully use the traction >> > of the tyres at any time, be it carbon or steel. The notion that you >> > would have lots longer brake distances just because you change to >> > steel discs is just a pipe dream. > >In fact the last time steel brakes were tried (as far as I know) was in >1999 by Zanardi/Williams and they found they actually offered slightly >more stopping power than carbon. Williams still prefered carbon due >to the reduction in unsprung mass and rotational inertia however.

Yup, one of the reason I heard why they experimented with them was that it was on the request on Zanardi's part, because he couldn't get to terms with the carbon-carbon brakes. Later though, I found out that Federal-Mogul had initiated tests with Williams for research purposes. One of the things that they found out was, as you said, it had actually a little bit more peak friction than carbon-carbon. >As to the bit about ABS, I think it is pretty hard (impossible?) to lock >the wheels up at high speed/downforce, the drivers have to ease off >the brakes as the downforce reduces with speed to stop locking up. One other reason to ease off the brakes is how the carbon brakes work. With constant braking pressure the friction increases, with rising heat, so to keep constant friction(for non-aero vehicles like MotoGP bikes) you have to ease off. Regarding locking wheels, I have no idea really. But the downforce is what, like 2 times the weight, 3 maybe... So that would mean it would (simplified, not counting weightshift)equal a 2 ton car with fat sticky tyres. Like I said, I don't know, but my feeling is that it woudn't be impossible to make brakes efficient enough to exceed those traction limits. >I believe CARTs greater braking distance is down to the extra >mass, less grip/downforce, and less drag. > > Paul