New wheel

I'm sure this has been covered many times, but here goes anyway. I am going to upgrade my Nascar pro digital (served me well) and I am torn between a TSW or a force feedback. I race only NR2002, GPL & NR2003 when it comes out. What do you guys think? Is FF the way to go & if so which would you recommend(I know I cant spell). TIA, Doug D

Spell checker to the rescue :)

I've got the MOMO, and I'm very satisfied with it. /Carl > What do you guys think? Is FF the way to go & if so which would you > recommend(I know I cant spell). > > TIA, Doug D > >

> I'm sure this has been covered many times, but here goes anyway. > I am going to upgrade my Nascar pro digital (served me well) and I am torn > between a TSW or a force feedback. I race only NR2002, GPL & NR2003 > when it comes out. If you only play Papyrus sims, then I'd go with a TSW since the FF in GPL is more of a hinderance than a help and FF has no place in Nascar sims, I'm told.

Personally, I like the FF in N2002 very much :-) > If you only play Papyrus sims, then I'd go with a TSW since the FF in GPLis > more of a hinderance than a help and FF has no place in Nascar sims, I'm > told. > >

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apsaj3$4krd2$[email hidden]... > > I'm sure this has been covered many times, but here goes anyway. > > I am going to upgrade my Nascar pro digital (served me well) and I amtorn > > between a TSW or a force feedback. I race only NR2002, GPL & NR2003 > > when it comes out. > > If you only play Papyrus sims, then I'd go with a TSW since the FF in GPLis > more of a hinderance than a help and FF has no place in Nascar sims, I'm > told. The ff in gpl is far from a hindrance. If you're used to no ff, you'll struggle for a while with the change, and your times will suffer. You may find, as many people (myself included) have, that ff is ultimately beneficial. That said, a high quality wheel is probably going to be just as beneficial. If you're not already using ff & are happy with your level of control over the car, take the TSW. Damien, I'd be interested to know what you base your opinion on, since it doesn't appear to me to be in line with the common view. Malc. -- GPLRank -34.831 Monster Rank -73.550

> Damien, I'd be interested to know what you base your opinion on, since it > doesn't appear to me to be in line with the common view. I've played around with the core.ini settings for days on end and still couldn't find a setting which remotely resembled the feedback from a real car. I've been to sim LANs where I've spoken to people who reckon they've got the FF settings spot-on in GPL. Some of them were ranked in the top 50 on GPL rank. When I attempted to drive with their wheel setups, I walked away wondering if they'd ever driven a real car... I wouldn't exactly say that I'm Robinson Crusoe when it comes to criticizing GPL's FF implementation. Most of the people who praise GPL's (and N2002's) FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2 years.

"Damien Smith" wrote: > I wouldn't exactly say that I'm Robinson Crusoe when it comes to criticizing > GPL's FF implementation. Most of the people who praise GPL's (and N2002's) > FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2 years. I'm not a fan of FF in its current development for a similar reason. However, I think when done well (within the limits of the technology) it adds another input that is missing from the lack of seat of the pants physics. Hence some can use it to their benefit.

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apsg1i$4lefl$[email hidden]... > > Damien, I'd be interested to know what you base your opinion on, sinceit > > doesn't appear to me to be in line with the common view. > > I've played around with the core.ini settings for days on end and still > couldn't find a setting which remotely resembled the feedback from a real > car. I've been to sim LANs where I've spoken to people who reckon they've > got the FF settings spot-on in GPL. Some of them were ranked in the top50 > on GPL rank. When I attempted to drive with their wheel setups, I walked > away wondering if they'd ever driven a real car... Maybe they can just drive better. This is technically possible I'm sure you'll agree ;-) Setups for ff, as well as car setups, are very subjective. Just because one person can drive fast with it doesn't necessarily mean someone else can. There are broad similarities, gear ratios etc, but you just have to find (or make) a setup that suits your style and controller. I find the most cricial ff setting to get right is the latency. I have two identical controllers & even they need slightly different lat settings. You have to tune it to your specific controller, so I'm not really at all surprised that you think someone elses setup is bad. > I wouldn't exactly say that I'm Robinson Crusoe when it comes tocriticizing > GPL's FF implementation. Most of the people who praise GPL's (andN2002's) > FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2years. If another sim can do it better, that doesn't suddenly make gpl or NR2002's ff any worse. It may not be state of the art, but it's very good, and many find it far more of an aid than a hindrance. That said, good ff controllers aren't cheap, and what they gain in features, they inevitably lose out on quality when compared to a non-ff controller at a similar price. Personally, I'm used to ff so I'd buy the ff controller over the quality one. I would also go with ff if I were a newbie, but if I was an already competent driver who was used to non-ff, I'd stay non-ff & spend the cash on extra quality. Malc.

The biggest problem with Papy FF is that it seems to need a lot more latency correction than most people use, and then once you do get enough latency correction to make it feel right, you get spiking when you run assymetric camber. I have looked around the net at various people's recommendations, and it seems that most of them are using 20 msec or less of latency correction, and are adjusting it based on how realistic it feels to drive over curbs. This is just plain wrong. In the readme file that came with the patch that enabled force feedback, it explains how to set the latency based on handling response. Papy's default timing using this method is 65 msec, which is based on an MSFF wheel. Using the same procedure on my LWFFGP, I need 120 msec. It comes out the same in both GPL and NR2002. 120 msec seems like an awful long time, but with my setup it is the only way to keep the forces in phase with the car's handling during extreme maneuvering, such as when trying to correct for a spin. Anything less and the forces are not connected to the handling. Thing is, you can't really tell the difference during normal driving, it is only when the car gets really loose and you are struggling to maintain control that the problem becomes noticeable. And then it becomes so strong that it will throw you right off the road. With enough latency it feels fairly realistic in both GPL and NR2002. But also in both games it creates anomalies in the handling if you use assymetric camber. Basically every time you cross over a longitudinal seam in the road, such as the crown at the Glen, you get a small spike in the steering. And since all good setups use assymetric camber, this is really annoying. Again, this is only with high latency settings, so I'm sure a lot of people haven't noticed it. So in GPL and NR2002 I cannot get decent force feedback. Either I get the timing right and get spiking or I give up on the timing in order to get smooth performance. Right now I am living with the former choice by keeping the force level low so that the spikes are not objectionable. But I honestly don't like it as much as ISI's FF, which by the way does not need any latency correction. I can't say I totally dislike Papy's force feedback, because FF does provide you with a more natural centering feel than a spring. But to the original poster I would say if you are really serious about your driving get the TSW. From what I hear, most of the really fast guys don't use FF. OTOH if you are just playing for fun, get a Momo but be prepared to spend some time tweaking it. "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apsg1i$4lefl$[email hidden]... > > I've played around with the core.ini settings for days on end andstill > couldn't find a setting which remotely resembled the feedback from areal > car. I've been to sim LANs where I've spoken to people who reckonthey've > got the FF settings spot-on in GPL. Some of them were ranked in thetop 50 > on GPL rank. When I attempted to drive with their wheel setups, Iwalked > away wondering if they'd ever driven a real car... > > I wouldn't exactly say that I'm Robinson Crusoe when it comes tocriticizing > GPL's FF implementation. Most of the people who praise GPL's (andN2002's) > FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2years. > >

Bachs wrote:

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> I'm sure this has been covered many times, but here goes anyway. > I am going to upgrade my Nascar pro digital (served me well) and I am > torn between a TSW or a force feedback. I race only NR2002, GPL & > NR2003 when it comes out. > What do you guys think? Is FF the way to go & if so which would you > recommend(I know I cant spell). > > TIA, Doug D

I had a TSW2 I used for about 3 years, still in great shape. Bought a Logitech Momo as I was curious about FF, and have run it ever since - almost a year ago. -- Don Burnette

> Most of the people who praise GPL's (and N2002's) > FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2years. > > BS

On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:22:42 GMT, Bachs wrote:

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> I'm sure this has been covered many times, but here goes anyway. > I am going to upgrade my Nascar pro digital (served me well) and I am torn > between a TSW or a force feedback. I race only NR2002, GPL & NR2003 > when it comes out. > What do you guys think? Is FF the way to go & if so which would you > recommend(I know I cant spell). > > TIA, Doug D

Hi Doug, I can recommend the TSW line of products. Support from Dave Jr. and the lot is great, they are of very high quality and the missing FF is not really an issue for me personally (I find I'm slower using a friend's FF wheel). Cheers & good luck, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Ive played just about every driving game/sim there is(and am in the top 50 at gpl). I think the FF in gpl/n2k2 is far superior to any other type of game(f1 2k2,gp4). If u are buying a wheel for papy games id go for the momo, its the best there is for the price imo dan "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apsg1i$4lefl$[email hidden]... > > Damien, I'd be interested to know what you base your opinion on, sinceit > > doesn't appear to me to be in line with the common view. > > I've played around with the core.ini settings for days on end and still > couldn't find a setting which remotely resembled the feedback from a real > car. I've been to sim LANs where I've spoken to people who reckon they've > got the FF settings spot-on in GPL. Some of them were ranked in the top50 > on GPL rank. When I attempted to drive with their wheel setups, I walked > away wondering if they'd ever driven a real car... > > I wouldn't exactly say that I'm Robinson Crusoe when it comes tocriticizing > GPL's FF implementation. Most of the people who praise GPL's (andN2002's) > FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2years. > >

Thanks guys, I think I'm going to go with the TSW. I dont want to deal with setting up the FF. Thanks again for all the help, Doug D

> Ive played just about every driving game/sim there is(and am in the top 50 > at gpl). I think the FF in gpl/n2k2 is far superior to any other type of > game(f1 2k2,gp4). This is a serious question, but I'm interested to know in what way you think GPL's FF is superior to, say, LFS?

With gpl's ff i can tell what the car is doing more than with lfs/f1 2k2. Some turns like the first chicane at watkins i can tell exactly how the car is reacting dependant on how heavy/light the steering is. GPL's ff isnt easy to get right and took me a while to get mine setup the way i like. But so far i havnt found any other game matches it dan "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptq07$4tlt5$[email hidden]... > > Ive played just about every driving game/sim there is(and am in the top50 > > at gpl). I think the FF in gpl/n2k2 is far superior to any other type of > > game(f1 2k2,gp4). > > This is a serious question, but I'm interested to know in what way youthink > GPL's FF is superior to, say, LFS? > >

> With gpl's ff i can tell what the car is doing more than with lfs/f1 2k2. > Some turns like the first chicane at watkins i can tell exactly how the car > is reacting dependant on how heavy/light the steering is. GPL's ff isnt easy > to get right and took me a while to get mine setup the way i like. But so > far i havnt found any other game matches it So are you saying that you can't feel the weight transfer properly in LFS/F12K2? If so, then let's just say I wholeheartedly disagree.... : (

Most of the time the FF in LFS feels like a very simple resistance algorithm. In f12k2 it feels like the opposite...an anti-resistance alogorithm. In gpl it seems to change more fluidly between statesesp when camber/bumps on the track are involved. dan "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptrbr$4s71m$[email hidden]... > > With gpl's ff i can tell what the car is doing more than with lfs/f12k2. > > Some turns like the first chicane at watkins i can tell exactly how thecar > > is reacting dependant on how heavy/light the steering is. GPL's ff isnteasy > > to get right and took me a while to get mine setup the way i like. Butso > > far i havnt found any other game matches it > > So are you saying that you can't feel the weight transfer properly inLFS/F12K2? > If so, then let's just say I wholeheartedly disagree.... : ( > >

> In f12k2 it feels like the opposite...an anti-resistance > alogorithm. Oh dear, let me guess, you forgot to set your MOMO to negative FF in F1 2K2....? If you didn't forget, then the term anti-resistance doesn't make any sense. Why are you fast(ish) GPL drivers so vague?

basically what i was saying is..no icant feel the weight transfer in lfs/f1 2k2 as easy as in gpl/n2k2 "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptsef$4tmq5$[email hidden]... > > In f12k2 it feels like the opposite...an anti-resistance > > alogorithm. > > Oh dear, let me guess, you forgot to set your MOMO to negative FF in F12K2....? > If you didn't forget, then the term anti-resistance doesn't make anysense. Why > are you fast(ish) GPL drivers so vague? > >

lfs has very good FF, but i must admit that it isn't as good as gpl/n2002. imo n2002 has the best FF in any sim so far, being a road course fan it has proved very useful, the ff in n2002 helps me predict what the car is doing because it reacts perfectly with the body roll of the tanks :) i wasn't keen on f12002's FF at all, and turned it off after a week. i can't really say which would be best to get, a MOMO would give u great force feedback which will immerse you well into a sim, but the TSW would/should be more precise and should last longer as well. my 2 cents "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptrbr$4s71m$[email hidden]... > > With gpl's ff i can tell what the car is doing more than with lfs/f12k2. > > Some turns like the first chicane at watkins i can tell exactly how thecar > > is reacting dependant on how heavy/light the steering is. GPL's ff isnteasy > > to get right and took me a while to get mine setup the way i like. Butso > > far i havnt found any other game matches it > > So are you saying that you can't feel the weight transfer properly inLFS/F12K2? > If so, then let's just say I wholeheartedly disagree.... : ( > >

> basically what i was saying is..no icant feel the weight transfer in lfs/f1 > 2k2 as easy as in gpl/n2k2 Thankyou for proving my point about being vague... Perhaps you might feel the weight transfer if you stopped assuming that anything different to Papyrus is wrong. I recommend using a real car as your yardstick instead of Papyrus sims.

To go back to your origional question about why i think the ff is superior to say lfs...i think that at the mo (ff in lfs is at an early stage) i think gpl uses many more input parameters to calculate the ff. LFS FF effect will surely over time get to be a more complicated model. dan "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptsjd$501pv$[email hidden]... > basically what i was saying is..no icant feel the weight transfer inlfs/f1

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> 2k2 as easy as in gpl/n2k2 > "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aptsef$4tmq5$[email hidden]... > > > In f12k2 it feels like the opposite...an anti-resistance > > > alogorithm. > > > > Oh dear, let me guess, you forgot to set your MOMO to negative FF in F1 > 2K2....? > > If you didn't forget, then the term anti-resistance doesn't make any > sense. Why > > are you fast(ish) GPL drivers so vague? > > > > > >

I never assumed that ...i think FF in papy games is far from perfect and tell u the truth i cant stand nascar sims at all.. i just wanted to add to the debate with 4 yrs of very serious simming experiance:) I sound vague cause i ..well am... not cause i stick up for papys ff model :) dan "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptt3u$4pjml$[email hidden]... > > basically what i was saying is..no icant feel the weight transfer inlfs/f1 > > 2k2 as easy as in gpl/n2k2 > > Thankyou for proving my point about being vague... > > Perhaps you might feel the weight transfer if you stopped assuming thatanything > different to Papyrus is wrong. I recommend using a real car as youryardstick > instead of Papyrus sims. > >

> i wasn't keen on f12002's FF at all, and turned it off after a week. <sigh> Let me guess? Another MOMO owner who was using positive FF? This must be the only forum on the net that has people that actually think NR2002 has better FF than F12002. Gerry, ymenard & Co, congratulations on turning the bulk of this newsgroup into brainwashed sheep...

Damien ..i hate to say this ..but u are a complete wanker. Why TF have u posted so confrontatinally ..i just wanted to offer my opinions not get caught in a flame war with a talentless idiot who seems to do nowt but whinge...why dont u feck off back to ridge racer forums or wherever u came from. "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apttkc$4sort$[email hidden]... > > i wasn't keen on f12002's FF at all, and turned it off after a week. > > <sigh> Let me guess? Another MOMO owner who was using positive FF? Thismust > be the only forum on the net that has people that actually think NR2002has > better FF than F12002. > > Gerry, ymenard & Co, congratulations on turning the bulk of this newsgroupinto > brainwashed sheep... > >

"Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptts0$4qf54$[email hidden]... > Damien ..i hate to say this ..but u are a complete wanker. Why TF have u > posted so confrontatinally ..i just wanted to offer my opinions not get > caught in a flame war with a talentless idiot who seems to do nowt but > whinge...why dont u feck off back to ridge racer forums or wherever u came > from. lol you beat me to it ;-) Malc.

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apttkc$4sort$[email hidden]... > > i wasn't keen on f12002's FF at all, and turned it off after a week. > > <sigh> Let me guess? Another MOMO owner who was using positive FF? Thismust > be the only forum on the net that has people that actually think NR2002has > better FF than F12002. Nascar & f1 are difficult to compare, since imo they require different techniques to get the most out of the car. However, if one sim is easier to adapt to than another, I'd have thought that would be a big plus point for it. It took me a week or so to get the ff feeling right in gpl (about 2 years ago), but I've never really managed to get NR2002 to work for me, so I run without it as my times are better without it. The ff in F12001 (I don't have 2002) was easy enough to get on with, but didn't really help me go faster. I guess that makes f1200x easier to live with, but ultimately not as rewarding as either of the papy sims. I don't use a MOMO though. > Gerry, ymenard & Co, congratulations on turning the bulk of this newsgroupinto > brainwashed sheep... Berk. Malc.

"Doug D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VKtw9.6903$[email hidden]... > Thanks guys, I think I'm going to go with the TSW. > I dont want to deal with setting up the FF. Nice one ;-) I don't think either choice would have been a mistake really. See you on vroc ;-) Malc.

In article <apttkc$4sort$[email hidden]>, "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: ><sigh> Let me guess? Another MOMO owner who was using positive FF? What the hell is *negative* feedback(besides what you seem to enjoy providing...)? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <apt7dp$4p0pm$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> Most of the people who praise GPL's (and N2002's) >> FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2 >years. >> >> > >BS

Come on, Carl - that's not much of an argument... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Uwe Schuerkamp <[email hidden]> writes: >I can recommend the TSW line of products. Support from Dave Jr. >and the lot is great, they are of very high quality and the >missing FF is not really an issue for me personally (I find I'm >slower using a friend's FF wheel). > Do me a favor? Use your friend's wheel Saturday...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> Damien ..i hate to say this ..but u are a complete wanker. Why TF have u > posted so confrontatinally ..i just wanted to offer my opinions not get > caught in a flame war with a talentless idiot who seems to do nowt but > whinge...why dont u feck off back to ridge racer forums or wherever u came > from. Yeesh...If *I* was being confrontational, what exactly do you call that outburst????!!??! All I did was mention that Papyrus might not be perfect, and all of a sudden the tension rises and people start exploding. I would suggest that instead of exploding, you either ignore my posts or give constructive comments with something a little better than the tired old "because I say so" line.

Your tiresome boring and know very little ... i find it amazing that someone who admits they couldnt set up FF in gpl properly then goes on to try and compare it to f1 2k2... maybe u should try learning about what u are trying to say before u type dan "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apu400$4vlmi$[email hidden]... > > Damien ..i hate to say this ..but u are a complete wanker. Why TF have u > > posted so confrontatinally ..i just wanted to offer my opinions not get > > caught in a flame war with a talentless idiot who seems to do nowt but > > whinge...why dont u feck off back to ridge racer forums or wherever ucame > > from. > > Yeesh...If *I* was being confrontational, what exactly do you call that > outburst????!!??! > > All I did was mention that Papyrus might not be perfect, and all of asudden the > tension rises and people start exploding. I would suggest that instead of > exploding, you either ignore my posts or give constructive comments with > something a little better than the tired old "because I say so" line. > > >

> Your tiresome boring and know very little ... i find it amazing that someone > who admits they couldnt set up FF in gpl properly then goes on to try and > compare it to f1 2k2... maybe u should try learning about what u are trying > to say before u type <shrug> I guess I just can't compete with the amazing amount of knowledge you've shared in this thread. It has been extremely helpful.

> What the hell is *negative* feedback(besides what you seem to enjoy > providing...)? Hmmm....even Eldred can't resist a cheap, unprovoked, personal insult.... : (

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <apt7dp$4p0pm$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> Most of the people who praise GPL's (and N2002's) > >> FF are the same people who haven't played anything else in the last 2 > >years. > >> > >> > > > >BS > > Come on, Carl - that's not much of an argument... > > Eldred >

Come on, Eldred ;-) It's not like it needs an explanation... /Carl

Damien Smith wrote: > > > What the hell is *negative* feedback(besides what you seem to enjoy > > providing...)? > > Hmmm....even Eldred can't resist a cheap, unprovoked, personal insult.... : ( No offense Damien, but that ought to ring a bell, in my opinion some of your posts to this thread has been very confrontational and it's like you've had an axe to grind or something, I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't even own a FF wheel so how would I know, but in my humble opinion you've been posting with an attitude when all people have done is provide their opinions Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apu58u$51b83$[email hidden]... > > Your tiresome boring and know very little ... i find it amazing thatsomeone > > who admits they couldnt set up FF in gpl properly then goes on to tryand > > compare it to f1 2k2... maybe u should try learning about what u aretrying > > to say before u type > > <shrug> I guess I just can't compete with the amazing amount of knowledge > you've shared in this thread. It has been extremely helpful. > > I think you problem is that you *assumed* that the FF wasn't correctly set up. Don't use assumptions as arguments. Personally I think the FF in f12002 is ok, but on the other hand I'm one of the guys who think the general feel of the cars is waay off... /Carl

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <apttkc$4sort$[email hidden]>, "Damien Smith" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > ><sigh> Let me guess? Another MOMO owner who was using positive FF? > > What the hell is *negative* feedback(besides what you seem to enjoy > providing...)? > > Eldred

F1-2002 doesn't know what kind of FF input your wheel uses. You have to set a slider to a fitting value between -100 and +100. MOMO is -100 and MSFF is +100 i think? /Carl (pardon my bad english)

> No offense Damien, but that ought to ring a bell, in my opinion some of > your posts to this thread has been very confrontational and it's like > you've had an axe to grind or something, I'm not saying you're wrong, I > don't even own a FF wheel so how would I know, but in my humble opinion > you've been posting with an attitude when all people have done is > provide their opinions My apologies if I gave a confrontational impression. Just trying to get some discussion happening....

Damien Smith wrote:

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> > > No offense Damien, but that ought to ring a bell, in my opinion some of > > your posts to this thread has been very confrontational and it's like > > you've had an axe to grind or something, I'm not saying you're wrong, I > > don't even own a FF wheel so how would I know, but in my humble opinion > > you've been posting with an attitude when all people have done is > > provide their opinions > > My apologies if I gave a confrontational impression. Just trying to get some > discussion happening....

You want discussion, head on over to the mhogaming server, the general.discussion group and check out the UFO threads, that ought to cover your discussion needs :-), and you can be as confrontational as you damn well pleases, the place feeds on that....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

You're kidding, right? If it wasn't for the excellent FF in GPL getting me over the curve, I'd have quit playing it years ago. -Larry "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apsaj3$4krd2$[email hidden]... > > I'm sure this has been covered many times, but here goes anyway. > > I am going to upgrade my Nascar pro digital (served me well) and I amtorn > > between a TSW or a force feedback. I race only NR2002, GPL & NR2003 > > when it comes out. > > If you only play Papyrus sims, then I'd go with a TSW since the FF in GPLis > more of a hinderance than a help and FF has no place in Nascar sims, I'm > told. > >

In article <apu815$530eo$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> >BS >> >> Come on, Carl - that's not much of an argument... >> >> Eldred >> > >Come on, Eldred ;-) >It's not like it needs an explanation... >

But if you argue, you need supporting statements and all that to prove your point. It isn't just saying BS or, "no it isn't!". :) Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <apu5b4$4vaq7$[email hidden]>, "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> What the hell is *negative* feedback(besides what you seem to enjoy >> providing...)? > >Hmmm....even Eldred can't resist a cheap, unprovoked, personal insult.... : >( > >

I thought it was valid, because all your responses seemed to have a negative attitude. But I'll withdraw my comment...sorry. I see Carl answered my question. What a silly setting... Sounds like something that Microsoft would come up with. :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <apu8pb$4uu71$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> writes: >F1-2002 doesn't know what kind of FF input your wheel uses. >You have to set a slider to a fitting value between -100 and +100. >MOMO is -100 and MSFF is +100 i think? > Why would there be total *opposites* in settings? No WONDER people get confused... :-( >/Carl > >(pardon my bad english) I guarantee your english is better than my...um, whatever your native language is...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

That's really the crux of the problem right there, because that statement really seems to apply to all games that use FF for anything more than bump effects. Honestly, ISI's FF is amazing, but is even more difficult to set up than GPL's. I think this is why we see so much disagreement here about who has the better FF implementation - they are just all very difficult to set up right, and therefore the one that people will think is the best is the one that they managed to get set up right. "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aptqi0$4nqit$[email hidden]... <snip> > GPL's ff isnt easy > to get right and took me a while to get mine setup the way i like.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <apu815$530eo$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> >BS > >> > >> Come on, Carl - that's not much of an argument... > >> > >> Eldred > >> > > > >Come on, Eldred ;-) > >It's not like it needs an explanation... > > > > But if you argue, you need supporting statements and all that to prove

your > point. It isn't just saying BS or, "no it isn't!". > :) > When someone uses an assumption as an argument in the first place, I think a plain BS is sufficient. ;-)

Agreed. Marc "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XjAw9.73011$[email hidden]... > You're kidding, right? > > If it wasn't for the excellent FF in GPL getting me over the curve, I'dhave

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> quit playing it years ago. > > -Larry > > "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:apsaj3$4krd2$[email hidden]... > > > I'm sure this has been covered many times, but here goes anyway. > > > I am going to upgrade my Nascar pro digital (served me well) and I am > torn > > > between a TSW or a force feedback. I race only NR2002, GPL & NR2003 > > > when it comes out. > > > > If you only play Papyrus sims, then I'd go with a TSW since the FF in

GPL

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> is > > more of a hinderance than a help and FF has no place in Nascar sims, I'm > > told. > > > > > >

On 01 Nov 2002 14:21:57 GMT, EldredP wrote: > Do me a favor? Use your friend's wheel Saturday...<g> > > Eldred looks like I did. I spun three times, dammit! ;-P uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <apvold$588fo$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> But if you argue, you need supporting statements and all that to prove >your >> point. It isn't just saying BS or, "no it isn't!". >> :) >> > >When someone uses an assumption as an argument in the first place, I think a >plain BS is sufficient. >;-) >

Forget it. It was a Monty Python reference that you missed...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Uwe Schuerkamp <[email hidden]> writes:

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>On 01 Nov 2002 14:21:57 GMT, EldredP wrote: > >> Do me a favor? Use your friend's wheel Saturday...<g> >> >> Eldred > >looks like I did. I spun three times, dammit! ;-P

...and ya STILL beat me by 2 spots. I only spun twice - both times in T1... :-( Two non points-scoring races in a row, dammit. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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> >> But if you argue, you need supporting statements and all that to prove > >your > >> point. It isn't just saying BS or, "no it isn't!". > >> :) > >> > >When someone uses an assumption as an argument in the first place, I think a > >plain BS is sufficient. > >;-) > > > Forget it. It was a Monty Python reference that you missed...<g>

M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes. (short pause) A: No it isn't.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <apvold$588fo$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> But if you argue, you need supporting statements and all that to prove > >your > >> point. It isn't just saying BS or, "no it isn't!". > >> :) > >> > > > >When someone uses an assumption as an argument in the first place, I

think a > >plain BS is sufficient. > >;-) > > > > Forget it. It was a Monty Python reference that you missed...<g> > I will always miss those. I like Monty Python, but I don't look at things twice (that often) ;-) Ok, I might get a reference to the knights who say Ni... /Carl

Carl Ribbegaardh wrote: > > I will always miss those. > I like Monty Python, but I don't look at things twice (that often) ;-) > > Ok, I might get a reference to the knights who say Ni... http://www.montypython.net/ Site is down at the moment but should be up again soon Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--