NAP patch for GTR2

GTR2 seems very good, especially the way it gives feedback, however, some find the physics a little too forgiving (possibly as an over reaction to counter the criticisms that GTR was too unforgiving!). Forgetting GTR for a moment, the GTL cars are more lively than the GTR cars on the limit and the rFactor Zonda positively manic. Debate will rage forever on RSC as to whether Doug Arnao's physics should be revered and it is sacrilegious to even contemplate changing them, however, the cynics amongst us will feel we have heard this is as real as it gets all before. There is no doubt though it is possible to hang on to some lurid slides in GTR2 without drama and enter a corner with a bundle of opposite lock at will. This won't do your tyres a lot of good in an endurance race but for shorter sprints it certainly doesn't feel right that you can get away with it. Leaping into a GTL Alfa then becomes a bit of a shock and in my view doing it on a race track would be likely to end in tears... The New Advanced Physics (NAP) aims to remove some of the forgiving nature by making changes to the tyre and aero models. http://www.baldrick.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mara/downloads/NAPmod.zip It certainly makes for a more lively handling car but contrary to some opinion discourages the sideways driving style by punishing the driver. No longer can you dart down the inside of the AI from way back and scrub the speed off mid corner and block them on the exit, if you are abrupt with the steering or pinched on the inside the chances are you will spin so you have to be smooth. A lot comes down to feel, whilst some of it will be down to real life track experience I think an awful lot more is around interpretation of feedback and how that relates to expectations. Some will prefer it others not, just as I prefer a GPL Ferrari to a Lotus and a GTL Alfa to a Falcon. There is an article in this month Autosimsport www.autosimsport.net (the patch is bundled in with the download too). Before anyone asks I have no affiliation with the NAP mod makers nor autosimsport... Cheers Tony

Would this not cause mismatches online ? -Larry "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d8PWg.32693$[email hidden]...

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> GTR2 seems very good, especially the way it gives feedback, however, some > find the physics a little too forgiving (possibly as an over reaction to > counter the criticisms that GTR was too unforgiving!). > > Forgetting GTR for a moment, the GTL cars are more lively than the GTR > cars on the limit and the rFactor Zonda positively manic. > > Debate will rage forever on RSC as to whether Doug Arnao's physics should > be revered and it is sacrilegious to even contemplate changing them, > however, the cynics amongst us will feel we have heard this is as real as > it gets all before. > > There is no doubt though it is possible to hang on to some lurid slides in > GTR2 without drama and enter a corner with a bundle of opposite lock at > will. This won't do your tyres a lot of good in an endurance race but for > shorter sprints it certainly doesn't feel right that you can get away with > it. Leaping into a GTL Alfa then becomes a bit of a shock and in my view > doing it on a race track would be likely to end in tears... > > The New Advanced Physics (NAP) aims to remove some of the forgiving nature > by making changes to the tyre and aero models. > > http://www.baldrick.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mara/downloads/NAPmod.zip > > It certainly makes for a more lively handling car but contrary to some > opinion discourages the sideways driving style by punishing the driver. No > longer can you dart down the inside of the AI from way back and scrub the > speed off mid corner and block them on the exit, if you are abrupt with > the steering or pinched on the inside the chances are you will spin so you > have to be smooth. > > A lot comes down to feel, whilst some of it will be down to real life > track experience I think an awful lot more is around interpretation of > feedback and how that relates to expectations. > > Some will prefer it others not, just as I prefer a GPL Ferrari to a Lotus > and a GTL Alfa to a Falcon. > > There is an article in this month Autosimsport www.autosimsport.net (the > patch is bundled in with the download too). > > Before anyone asks I have no affiliation with the NAP mod makers nor > autosimsport... > > Cheers > Tony

Larry wrote: > Would this not cause mismatches online ? Yes it does, hence it needs to be considered for offline use, leagues or potentially NAP patched (and clearly named!) open servers. Cheers Tony

Oh, man. Here we go again.... :( -Larry "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jXRWg.32844$[email hidden]...

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> Larry wrote: >> Would this not cause mismatches online ? > > Yes it does, hence it needs to be considered for offline use, leagues or > potentially NAP patched (and clearly named!) open servers. > > Cheers > Tony > >

Larry wrote: > Oh, man. Here we go again.... :( I am not sure GTR2 is going to challenge rFactor and LFS for the online racer stakes. It seems to need a very powerful server with lots of bandwidth. At the moment pick up races seem to be hit or miss in terms of connection quality. I think it will settle into leagues who organise themselves either with or without mods, or be used as the comprehensive offline sim it is. Cheers Tony

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d8PWg.32693$[email hidden]... > GTR2 seems very good, especially the way it gives feedback, however, some > find the physics a little too forgiving (possibly as an over reaction to > counter the criticisms that GTR was too unforgiving!). > I bought GTR2 but haven't yet installed it. If GTR2 is as forgiving as the demo was, i wouldn't call it a serious simulator. I find it very strange, that the physics engine parametres are the way Doug Arnao describes them being in the Autosimsport article. A wing just cannot generate any downforce in 90 degree slide, but in GTR2 it will generate just as much as in a straight line.... Currently the hotlappers are already doing overly fast laptimes when compared to the real life times. In GTR1 they were little more in line with real life, and the track modeling is better in GTR2 too, so..... If the NAP has less-sticky handling, in where driver can make the rear end come around if he really wants it to (you couldn't do that in GTR2 demo even if you tried!), and if hotlapping it will result in more realistic laptimes compared to stock-GTR2, I will definitively install it permanently to my GTR2 install, when I eventually have the time to install and race it. This is not to say that NAP is the final answer to the realism problem of GTR2. -- Mika Takala

Tony Rickard wrote: > Forgetting GTR for a moment, the GTL cars are more lively than the GTR > cars on the limit and the rFactor Zonda positively manic. I would really like to see feedback from someone who has driven a GTR2 car at the limit and finds them to be more forgiving than GTL. The opinions of the real drivers and the fast sim guys seems to be universally positive.

Mika Takala wrote: > A wing just cannot generate any downforce > in 90 degree slide, but in GTR2 it will generate just as much as in a > straight line.... I'm not sure if it was changed in pmotor2, but in pmotor1 there's no way to model downforce dropoff with yaw in a non-linear manner. Which means that you can either not model it at all, or model in a way that is completely unrealistic. Most wings can be facing fairly far from their direction of movement before the amount of downforce they're generating decreases noticeably. Unfortunately there's no way to model this in pmotor1 since the relationship of angle/downforce-loss is a straight line and not a curve. Basically yoiu can either have wings that lose their effectiveness at ridiculously shallow angles, or wings that generate downforce past the point where a stall should occur. I think having a wing that doesn't lose any downforce at all is closer to reality than one that loses half it's downforce at a 45 degree angle.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Tony Rickard wrote: > >> Forgetting GTR for a moment, the GTL cars are more lively than the GTR >> cars on the limit and the rFactor Zonda positively manic. > > I would really like to see feedback from someone who has driven a GTR2 > car at the limit and finds them to be more forgiving than GTL. The > opinions of the real drivers and the fast sim guys seems to be > universally positive.

FWIW I spent some time at Donington with GTR2 in an NGT RSR. I then fired up GTL for a league race and my Alfa GTA was going sideways into the old hairpin (a la Mansell in a Mondeo). A few acclimatisation laps and I had the back under control by adapting my driving style but there is a world of difference between the two under braking. I also had to control the rear more under power. Note that I had also been driving in the wet in GTR2 and I still got more wheelspin with GTL... The picture below shows a typical controlled slide in GTR2, turn in early and drift it around. One take for the camera... http://www.baldrick.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/gtr2_800.jpg I really like GTR2 as a package, but I do feel that addressing the driving on ice complaints of GTR has gone too far the other way - which the NAP mod attempts to put right. If GTR's acclaimed reality has been dismissed by its own developers then who is to say GTR3 won't have an altogether new physics approach. I am comfortable to go with what I feel is best and take the developers claims with a pinch of salt. Cheers Tony

This topic drives me nuts so I am sorry if I come off as an ass, but to compare GTL cars to GTR2 is comparing an apple to an airplane. The GTR2 driving model is pretty damn close if you ask me. I watch all of the fia GT races and the cars are not sliding around and they are not getting the back end hung out on throttle response ala GTL. They have massive slick tires and substantial downforce in comparison. If it's said that the GTR2 physics are not as enjoyable then so be it, but to say they aren't accurate because they don't slide like we are all accustom to is a disservice to the work IMHO. I for one find it fantastic and a great representation of the series. Frankly right now nothing else comes close. Chad "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zzTWg.32944$[email hidden]...

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> jason moyer wrote: >> Tony Rickard wrote: >> >>> Forgetting GTR for a moment, the GTL cars are more lively than the GTR >>> cars on the limit and the rFactor Zonda positively manic. >> >> I would really like to see feedback from someone who has driven a GTR2 >> car at the limit and finds them to be more forgiving than GTL. The >> opinions of the real drivers and the fast sim guys seems to be >> universally positive. > > FWIW I spent some time at Donington with GTR2 in an NGT RSR. I then fired > up GTL for a league race and my Alfa GTA was going sideways into the old > hairpin (a la Mansell in a Mondeo). A few acclimatisation laps and I had > the back under control by adapting my driving style but there is a world > of difference between the two under braking. I also had to control the > rear more under power. > > Note that I had also been driving in the wet in GTR2 and I still got more > wheelspin with GTL... > > The picture below shows a typical controlled slide in GTR2, turn in early > and drift it around. One take for the camera... > > http://www.baldrick.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/gtr2_800.jpg > > I really like GTR2 as a package, but I do feel that addressing the driving > on ice complaints of GTR has gone too far the other way - which the NAP > mod attempts to put right. If GTR's acclaimed reality has been dismissed > by its own developers then who is to say GTR3 won't have an altogether new > physics approach. I am comfortable to go with what I feel is best and take > the developers claims with a pinch of salt. > > Cheers > Tony

Chad Rogers wrote:

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> This topic drives me nuts so I am sorry if I come off as an ass, but to > compare GTL cars to GTR2 is comparing an apple to an airplane. > The GTR2 driving model is pretty damn close if you ask me. I watch all of > the fia GT races and the cars are not sliding around and they are not > getting the back end hung out on throttle response ala GTL. They have > massive slick tires and substantial downforce in comparison. If it's said > that the GTR2 physics are not as enjoyable then so be it, but to say they > aren't accurate because they don't slide like we are all accustom to is a > disservice to the work IMHO. I for one find it fantastic and a great > representation of the series. Frankly right now nothing else comes close.

What I am saying is the complete opposite. On the limit GTR2 is much more forgiving on their slicks than the GTL cars allowing huge controlled slides at high speeds. The modifications are to reduce the envelope so it is harder to control when you go beyond the limit, thus promoting less sliding around. Now that doesn't mean you can't drive the stock physics in a realistic manner which looks spot on to what you would expect, but you can get away with taking the odd liberty here and there, particularly against the AI. Cheers Tony

Tony Rickard wrote:

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> A few acclimatisation laps > and I had the back under control by adapting my driving style but there > is a world of difference between the two under braking. I also had to > control the rear more under power. > Note that I had also been driving in the wet in GTR2 and I still got > more wheelspin with GTL...

A few thoughts on both points: a.) a car with 1250lbs of downforce (fast GT car) is going to be *sliiiiightly* less likely to lock the brakes than one with 125lbs (max GT-TC-76, of course most cars generate little downforce or even slight lift) b.) I find I get about the same amount of wheelspin in GTR2 as I do in GTL, at least comparing them when exiting the hairpins at Donington. I get slightly more wheelspin in the Saleen/F550 than I do in the 911 RSR/906 in GTL, but of course it depends on the car. Overall I don't really find it surprising that 30-40 years of chassis development (and better rated tires, altho GTL uses modern tires) would have resulted in an improvement in traction out of slow corners. c.) I have no idea how you're not getting wheelspin in the rain at any speed, as I'm sliding all over the place if I don't use delicate inputs. d.) I doubt you're doing this, but I wouldn't compare physics using the default setups. The GTR2 defaults are incredibly aero-pushy and are more likely to lock the fronts than the rears (the default setups in GTR2 tend to have 10 wing - the Viper has 12! - and I personally can't stay out of the green stuff with anything more than 7-8), whereas the aero in GTL is car dependent and the brake bias in the default setups tend to lock the rears first except for a handful of cars. Being an RFB'er, I find the 906 default setups completely impossible to drive without cranking in a few % of forward brake bias. > The picture below shows a typical controlled slide in GTR2, turn in > early and drift it around. One take for the camera... > > http://www.baldrick.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/gtr2_800.jpg Yes I can do that too. I can do it in GPL, N2003, and GTL too. In any case I think you'll find it's not a particularly effective way to drive, since you're wasting momentum sliding sideways (and bleeding off speed) instead of keeping the car going forward (and maintaining momentum). Also, while the wings don't lose downforce, you can lose up to half of the body's downforce (at least on the cars I've checked) by doing that.

jason moyer wrote: > a.) a car with 1250lbs of downforce (fast GT car) is going to be > *sliiiiightly* less likely to lock the brakes than one with 125lbs (max > GT-TC-76, of course most cars generate little downforce or even slight > lift) Fair comment, forgetting the GTL comparison for a moment I would still expect to be able to lock up (at least at low speeds) in pretty much anything without ABS if I stamp on the pedal. I like a sim to require at least some modulation.

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> b.) I find I get about the same amount of wheelspin in GTR2 as I do in > GTL, at least comparing them when exiting the hairpins at Donington. I > get slightly more wheelspin in the Saleen/F550 than I do in the 911 > RSR/906 in GTL, but of course it depends on the car. Overall I don't > really find it surprising that 30-40 years of chassis development (and > better rated tires, altho GTL uses modern tires) would have resulted in > an improvement in traction out of slow corners.

Same as the answer above really. Yes the old 65TCs are a bad comparison, but again I would expect to need some degree of throttle control even in the NGTs. I was a little disappointed to be able to push the throttle to the floor so early, although this could be the case in reality it doesn't feel involving enough for my perception of the power output. > c.) I have no idea how you're not getting wheelspin in the rain at any > speed, as I'm sliding all over the place if I don't use delicate > inputs. The NGTs seem to be able to floor the throttle very early in full wet conditions. I agree though in the GTs there is far more of a challenge.

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> Yes I can do that too. I can do it in GPL, N2003, and GTL too. In any > case I think you'll find it's not a particularly effective way to > drive, since you're wasting momentum sliding sideways (and bleeding off > speed) instead of keeping the car going forward (and maintaining > momentum). Also, while the wings don't lose downforce, you can lose up > to half of the body's downforce (at least on the cars I've checked) by > doing that.

I just found it really easy to do in GTR2, in the other sims you mentioned it seems much more challenging (for me at least) and to do it in a real car at those speeds I would believe it to be quite skillful (although as you say not necessarily advisable!) Putting GTL to one side I find the stock physics lack a little life and don't match my perception of race cars which may be flawed. It is very much a feel thing from my perspective. Cheers Tony

Tony Rickard wrote:

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> Larry wrote: >> Would this not cause mismatches online ? > > Yes it does, hence it needs to be considered for offline use, leagues or > potentially NAP patched (and clearly named!) open servers. > > Cheers > Tony > >

Good luck on that.

I anyone is interested, there is a small paragraph in the GTR2 manual recommending the nVidia 6 or 7 series chip set. I got the 7300 GT 512 at a good price and am running everything full except the high def paddock with DX9 level 2 AA and have very good frame rates. Thanks for all the good info. "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d8PWg.32693$[email hidden]...

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> GTR2 seems very good, especially the way it gives feedback, however, > some find the physics a little too forgiving (possibly as an over > reaction to counter the criticisms that GTR was too unforgiving!). > > Forgetting GTR for a moment, the GTL cars are more lively than the GTR > cars on the limit and the rFactor Zonda positively manic. > > Debate will rage forever on RSC as to whether Doug Arnao's physics > should be revered and it is sacrilegious to even contemplate changing > them, however, the cynics amongst us will feel we have heard this is as > real as it gets all before. > > There is no doubt though it is possible to hang on to some lurid slides > in GTR2 without drama and enter a corner with a bundle of opposite lock > at will. This won't do your tyres a lot of good in an endurance race but > for shorter sprints it certainly doesn't feel right that you can get > away with it. Leaping into a GTL Alfa then becomes a bit of a shock and > in my view doing it on a race track would be likely to end in tears... > > The New Advanced Physics (NAP) aims to remove some of the forgiving > nature by making changes to the tyre and aero models. > > http://www.baldrick.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mara/downloads/NAPmod.zip > > It certainly makes for a more lively handling car but contrary to some > opinion discourages the sideways driving style by punishing the driver. > No longer can you dart down the inside of the AI from way back and scrub > the speed off mid corner and block them on the exit, if you are abrupt > with the steering or pinched on the inside the chances are you will spin > so you have to be smooth. > > A lot comes down to feel, whilst some of it will be down to real life > track experience I think an awful lot more is around interpretation of > feedback and how that relates to expectations. > > Some will prefer it others not, just as I prefer a GPL Ferrari to a > Lotus and a GTL Alfa to a Falcon. > > There is an article in this month Autosimsport www.autosimsport.net (the > patch is bundled in with the download too). > > Before anyone asks I have no affiliation with the NAP mod makers nor > autosimsport... > > Cheers > Tony

Sorry - posted to wrong thread "DStamper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Y%fXg.21175$2g4.14455@dukeread09... > I anyone is interested, there is a small paragraph in the GTR2 manual > recommending the nVidia 6 or 7 series chip set. I got the 7300 GT 512 ata

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> good price and am running everything full except the high def paddock with > DX9 level 2 AA and have very good frame rates. Thanks for all the good > info. > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:d8PWg.32693$[email hidden]... > > GTR2 seems very good, especially the way it gives feedback, however, > > some find the physics a little too forgiving (possibly as an over > > reaction to counter the criticisms that GTR was too unforgiving!). > > > > Forgetting GTR for a moment, the GTL cars are more lively than the GTR > > cars on the limit and the rFactor Zonda positively manic. > > > > Debate will rage forever on RSC as to whether Doug Arnao's physics > > should be revered and it is sacrilegious to even contemplate changing > > them, however, the cynics amongst us will feel we have heard this is as > > real as it gets all before. > > > > There is no doubt though it is possible to hang on to some lurid slides > > in GTR2 without drama and enter a corner with a bundle of opposite lock > > at will. This won't do your tyres a lot of good in an endurance race but > > for shorter sprints it certainly doesn't feel right that you can get > > away with it. Leaping into a GTL Alfa then becomes a bit of a shock and > > in my view doing it on a race track would be likely to end in tears... > > > > The New Advanced Physics (NAP) aims to remove some of the forgiving > > nature by making changes to the tyre and aero models. > > > > http://www.baldrick.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mara/downloads/NAPmod.zip > > > > It certainly makes for a more lively handling car but contrary to some > > opinion discourages the sideways driving style by punishing the driver. > > No longer can you dart down the inside of the AI from way back and scrub > > the speed off mid corner and block them on the exit, if you are abrupt > > with the steering or pinched on the inside the chances are you will spin > > so you have to be smooth. > > > > A lot comes down to feel, whilst some of it will be down to real life > > track experience I think an awful lot more is around interpretation of > > feedback and how that relates to expectations. > > > > Some will prefer it others not, just as I prefer a GPL Ferrari to a > > Lotus and a GTL Alfa to a Falcon. > > > > There is an article in this month Autosimsport www.autosimsport.net (the > > patch is bundled in with the download too). > > > > Before anyone asks I have no affiliation with the NAP mod makers nor > > autosimsport... > > > > Cheers > > Tony > >