Re: RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, > and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > > To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all > driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of > us don't have clutch pedals). >

*CRING* Oh that sounds like it is gonna be ugly! ;o) - Isotrip�

I think that's the point John is trying to make.

Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of us don't have clutch pedals).

John, Could I also suggest that every one run on 17" monitors and use 800*600 resolution and limit their frame rate to 35 max. Also no using shifters or clutches and no wheels/pedal systems over $100 and no PC faster than 1GHZ as all these give an unfair advantage. ;-)

"John Simmons" said: > To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all > driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of > us don't have clutch pedals). I dont use any of 'em. -- ed_

>Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of >us don't have clutch pedals). Why's that? I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning... I thought the driving aids made you slower anyway? I doubt people ARE running with the driving aids... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Of course it'll get ugly. Roofriders (or one of the Mario bros) forced into the cockpit at this late stage of the Nx series wont be pretty. Not an accurate measurement in any case.. A better solution would be to force the cockpit long term and watch n see. As for the aids. I would have never guessed the fastest guys use em.. I never have and never will regardless how much faster I can go. Mitch "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, > and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > > To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all > driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of > us don't have clutch pedals). >

Yes because the long term cockpit guys never cause a wreck ;-) It's really a matter of personal choice I think. If you want an all cockpit league then go to it, I don't and a number of others don't. Same applies to a number of other league rules that many uses, some rules aren't for everyone. There is no clear answer on this other than do what you enjoy.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> >Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, > >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > > > >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all > >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of > >us don't have clutch pedals). > > Why's that? I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning... > I thought the driving aids made you slower anyway? I doubt people ARE running > with the driving aids... > > Eldred >

Some folks rujn with the driving line on, some run with steering help, etc. etc. Others roof-ride. I was just interested in seeing if there really is an advantage to using/not using them, and the only way to prove it is to run a race without those aids.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:05:21 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote: >Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of >us don't have clutch pedals). Cool. Sounds exactly like how I've always raced it online, without incident. Jason

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:02:43 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] says... >> >Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, >> >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). >> > >> >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all >> >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of >> >us don't have clutch pedals). >> >> Why's that? I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning... >> I thought the driving aids made you slower anyway? I doubt people ARE running >> with the driving aids... >> >> Eldred >> >Some folks rujn with the driving line on, some run with steering >help, etc. etc. Others roof-ride. I was just interested in seeing >if there really is an advantage to using/not using them, and the only >way to prove it is to run a race without those aids.

Well, I am pretty sure that any driving aid (with exception of clutch) makes you slower. As for the driving line, I have never turned it on, even in practice. I find it a distraction. Besides, I bet guys like Tim and Grandy don't even follow it exactly. I have noticed that Tim likes to diamond a lot of the corners, especially at the flat tracks and I don't the driving line has you doing that. As for roof riding. I personally don't care if it makes someone a better, safer driver. I, again, have never tried using it and have always used cockpit view to drive and probably couldn't drive sitting on my roof or suspended behind me car. I think the current config is fine. Brian Oster

I wouldn't bother with this experiment John. I couldn't care less what view someone else uses. The FOV in sims stinks and is completely unrealistic. Depth perception stinks and is completely unrealistic. The fact we are viewing everything through tiny little monitors is a joke, and is completely unrealistic. It's obvious these guys who make a big deal out of this issue just want to try and come off as super serious sim racers. Probably because they are lacking in pure skill. David G Fisher "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, > and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > > To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all > driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of > us don't have clutch pedals). >

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:33:33 +0100, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all >> driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of >> us don't have clutch pedals). > >I dont use any of 'em. This thread reminded me of the nice race we had going for the first 20 laps at Dover months ago. I need to go dig up that replay and watch it again, was fun. Thinking that racing that closely from the cockpit view is apparently difficult for most people (those with more skills than us, I mean) makes me remember why I gave up on multiplayer. Jason

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>This thread reminded me of the nice race we had going for the first 20 >laps at Dover months ago. I need to go dig up that replay and watch >it again, was fun. Thinking that racing that closely from the cockpit >view is apparently difficult for most people (those with more skills >than us, I mean) makes me remember why I gave up on multiplayer. > >Jason

Must... resist... urge... to... call... Jason... arrogant... prick... :) Some people (like me) suck at the cockpit. Deal with it. I race for FUN, not for 100% realism. ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

Must... resist... urge... to... call... Jason... arrogant... ***... :) Some people (like me) suck at the***pit. Deal with it. I race for FUN, not for 100% realism. ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, [link lost in import]

On 28 Nov 2002 04:16:04 GMT, [email hidden] (Dan Belcher) wrote: >Must... resist... urge... to... call... Jason... arrogant... prick... :) =p > Some >people (like me) suck at the cockpit. Deal with it. I race for FUN, not for >100% realism. Nothing wrong with that, just don't join multiplayer races I'm in. I want to race with people who have the same disadvantages I do and can keep their car under control. I realize that seems harsh, but I don't see what the difference is between racing from the roof cam and, say, editing the nr2002.exe so my car has 50 more horsepower. Having 50 more horsepower would make the game less realistic but a lot more fun. I don't think people should never play from the roof cam, and I apologize if it sounds that way. I wouldn't want Papyrus to actually remove the alternate driving cameras, or on-track lines, or braking help, or any aids from the game. It's a game, and it needs to be accessible and fun if it's going to sell well. I would just like to see a way to force every driver to use the same settings for everything in multiplayer to level the playing field in leagues and such. If you can force fixed setups and minimum LPI I don't see why you can't force cockpit views, smoke, pit crews, lens flare, etc. Jason

So your saying roof riders will beat cockpit drivers typically then is that it? Hmm, that's not what we have seen in our or other leagues, overall it's pretty equal split amoung all views. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:as4sjs$nq1q6$[email hidden]... > Hi David, > > I rather think that most cockpit drivers wouldn't care much about the > roofriding question if those who use that view would simply say they useit > because it's easier for them that way, as it gives them a better view ofthe

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> track and their opponents, and that's it. > > But often the statements you get are something to the effect of: > > 'it's not advantage at all, I use it because (pick one of the following) > - it makes me a little faster or > - helps me see the track better or > - helps me prevent accidents > > etc. etc. :-) > > Such statements bear a contradiction within themselves which simply calls > for a reply ;-) > > Achim > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I wouldn't bother with this experiment John. > > > > I couldn't care less what view someone else uses. The FOV in sims stinks > and > > is completely unrealistic. Depth perception stinks and is completely > > unrealistic. The fact we are viewing everything through tiny little > monitors > > is a joke, and is completely unrealistic. > > > > It's obvious these guys who make a big deal out of this issue just want

to > > try and come off as super serious sim racers. Probably because they are > > lacking in pure skill. > > > > David G Fisher > >

Hi David, I rather think that most cockpit drivers wouldn't care much about the roofriding question if those who use that view would simply say they use it because it's easier for them that way, as it gives them a better view of the track and their opponents, and that's it. But often the statements you get are something to the effect of: 'it's not advantage at all, I use it because (pick one of the following) - it makes me a little faster or - helps me see the track better or - helps me prevent accidents etc. etc. :-) Such statements bear a contradiction within themselves which simply calls for a reply ;-) Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I wouldn't bother with this experiment John. > > I couldn't care less what view someone else uses. The FOV in sims stinksand > is completely unrealistic. Depth perception stinks and is completely > unrealistic. The fact we are viewing everything through tiny littlemonitors

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> is a joke, and is completely unrealistic. > > It's obvious these guys who make a big deal out of this issue just want to > try and come off as super serious sim racers. Probably because they are > lacking in pure skill. > > David G Fisher

Wrong approach John. You'll let the cockpit riders use the view they're used to, but force everyone else into a view they're not used to. That puts the cockpit riders at an advantage. I'm fairly sure a seasoned cockpit-jockey would become pretty much of a menace if he'd suddenly be forced to drive from roof cam :-) (not that they couldn't learn it after while, of course) I once damaged my car in an online race and the hood was so crumpled that I couldn't drive from inside the cockpit anymore. Since there were only two or three laps left in the race I switched to another cam, I forget whether it was roof or front bumper. Anyway, from that new view I was something like 2 seconds slower per lap than before (it was a road circuit, I forget which). Part of it was probably the damage, but a bigger part was that I was forced to use a view I'm not accustomed to :-) Achim "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > >Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, > > >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > > > > > >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all > > >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of > > >us don't have clutch pedals). > > > > Why's that? I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning... > > I thought the driving aids made you slower anyway? I doubt people ARE

running

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> > with the driving aids... > > > > Eldred > > > Some folks rujn with the driving line on, some run with steering > help, etc. etc. Others roof-ride. I was just interested in seeing > if there really is an advantage to using/not using them, and the only > way to prove it is to run a race without those aids.

I forgot to add the statement I actually wanted to make: <g> you need to force everyone to drive in the other's view to make it a fair comparison. Roofriders into the cockpit, cockpit drivers onto the roof :-) Achim "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:as4t1v$nq77m$[email hidden]... > Wrong approach John. > > You'll let the cockpit riders use the view they're used to, but force > everyone else into a view they're not used to. That puts the cockpitriders > at an advantage. > > I'm fairly sure a seasoned cockpit-jockey would become pretty much of a > menace if he'd suddenly be forced to drive from roof cam :-) (not thatthey > couldn't learn it after while, of course) > > I once damaged my car in an online race and the hood was so crumpled thatI > couldn't drive from inside the cockpit anymore. Since there were only twoor > three laps left in the race I switched to another cam, I forget whether it > was roof or front bumper. Anyway, from that new view I was something like2 > seconds slower per lap than before (it was a road circuit, I forgetwhich). > Part of it was probably the damage, but a bigger part was that I wasforced

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> to use a view I'm not accustomed to :-) > > Achim > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > >Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing cockpit mode, > > > >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test). > > > > > > > >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all > > > >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of > > > >us don't have clutch pedals). > > > > > > Why's that? I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning... > > > I thought the driving aids made you slower anyway? I doubt people ARE > running > > > with the driving aids... > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > Some folks rujn with the driving line on, some run with steering > > help, etc. etc. Others roof-ride. I was just interested in seeing > > if there really is an advantage to using/not using them, and the only > > way to prove it is to run a race without those aids. > >

I'm only saying that the statements made by those who use the roof cam about the benefits of using that view are sometimes a bit contradictory within themselves (i.e. when they say it's no advantage but then continue to give a list of advantages as a reason why they use that view), and that's what makes people want to reply to such messages. I am not talking about who's faster or anything, i.e. I have explicitely avoided making any statements as to what's 'better' or such. And my message was a bit tongue in cheek of course :-) Achim "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BhnF9.213558$[email hidden]... > So your saying roof riders will beat cockpit drivers typically then isthat > it? > Hmm, that's not what we have seen in our or other leagues, overall it's > pretty equal split amoung all views.

"David G Fisher" said: > I couldn't care less what view someone else uses. The FOV in sims stinksand > is completely unrealistic. Depth perception stinks and is completely > unrealistic. Realism has nothing to do with it (i.e the reasonfor my initial requests) What I want in an equal set of rules for all the drivers in a race. -- ed_

So what about guys that run multi monitors with the new Matrox card? Would that still be fair? They have a wider fov but use the same cockpit view. "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "David G Fisher" said: > > > I couldn't care less what view someone else uses. The FOV in sims stinks > and > > is completely unrealistic. Depth perception stinks and is completely > > unrealistic. > > > Realism has nothing to do with it (i.e the reasonfor my initial requests) > > What I want in an equal set of rules for all the drivers in a race. > > -- > ed_ > >

> I once damaged my car in an online race and the hood was so crumpled thatI > couldn't drive from inside the cockpit anymore. Since there were only twoor > three laps left in the race I switched to another cam, I forget whether it > was roof or front bumper. Anyway, from that new view I was something like2 > seconds slower per lap than before (it was a road circuit, I forgetwhich). > Part of it was probably the damage, but a bigger part was that I wasforced > to use a view I'm not accustomed to :-) > > Achim > > One of my very first online races was the short oval at Martinsville. There was the usual first lap pile up and I managed to tbone one of the cars that got involved. The hood obscurred 90% of my field of view. I was about to duck into the pits for repairs when I noticed I was 2nd. So I stayed out. I took the highest line I could and just motored around. Only a few of the fellows that went into the pits for repairs got out in time to unlap themselves enough to get ahead of me in the standings. I think I finished about 5th overall. Back in the joystick days...I was quite pleased with that result. stayed inside the whole way. dave henrie

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:as4t7j$nge93$[email hidden]...

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> I forgot to add the statement I actually wanted to make: <g> > > you need to force everyone to drive in the other's view to make it a fair > comparison. Roofriders into the cockpit, cockpit drivers onto the roof :-) > > Achim >

Short-term that would be an equalizer, but the long term plan is to have EVERYONE comfortable with the same view....mine....:) Maybe I should run for King or something dave henrie

In article <as53vj$npk6a$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> I'm only saying that the statements made by those who use the roof cam about > the benefits of using that view are sometimes a bit contradictory within > themselves (i.e. when they say it's no advantage but then continue to give a > list of advantages as a reason why they use that view), and that's what > makes people want to reply to such messages. I am not talking about who's > faster or anything, i.e. I have explicitely avoided making any statements as > to what's 'better' or such. > > And my message was a bit tongue in cheek of course :-) > > Achim > > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BhnF9.213558$[email hidden]... > > So your saying roof riders will beat cockpit drivers typically then is > that > > it? > > Hmm, that's not what we have seen in our or other leagues, overall it's > > pretty equal split amoung all views.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what fuckin view everyone uses. I've never seen any instance of a driver having an unfair advantage over other drivers because of a specific view they use. Even smoke is an advantage/disadvantage. In one way, you can see crap happening much farther away, but when you have to drive thru the smoke, you're taking a big risk. If you don't have smoke turned on, you can't see cars getting out of shape until you're right up on them, and you sometimes can't slow down in time so you smack into them. I like the smoke thing (afterall, it adds a bit of excitement and illustrates cars in trouble very early), but roof view at least makes me competitive on the road courses. It's also safer to drive that way because you can see problems on the track in time to prepare for some kind of avoidance manuever. On ovals it provides no benefit unless my hood is pushed up and blocking the windshield. I don't participate in races where cockpit view is forced on because I think it's a bit presumptuous on the part of the server admin (on pickup races) to assume that everyone else wants to share in his sense of "realism", and it's now very safe in an online setting anyway. I think Papy blew it when they didn't give admins a way to force the driving aids off. To me, those settings create more of an advantage than what view you drive from.

Hi John, even in real life racing, there are always differences. Teams have different equipment, one set of tires can be better than another out of coincidence, etc. etc. Differences are part of racing, I've decided to accept them as a given and simply forget about them. Achim "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <as53vj$npk6a$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > I'm only saying that the statements made by those who use the roof camabout > > the benefits of using that view are sometimes a bit contradictory within > > themselves (i.e. when they say it's no advantage but then continue togive a > > list of advantages as a reason why they use that view), and that's what > > makes people want to reply to such messages. I am not talking aboutwho's > > faster or anything, i.e. I have explicitely avoided making anystatements as

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> > to what's 'better' or such. > > > > And my message was a bit tongue in cheek of course :-) > > > > Achim > > > > > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:BhnF9.213558$[email hidden]... > > > So your saying roof riders will beat cockpit drivers typically then is > > that > > > it? > > > Hmm, that's not what we have seen in our or other leagues, overall

it's

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> > > pretty equal split amoung all views. > > > In the end, it doesn't really matter what fuckin view everyone uses. > I've never seen any instance of a driver having an unfair advantage > over other drivers because of a specific view they use. > > Even smoke is an advantage/disadvantage. In one way, you can see > crap happening much farther away, but when you have to drive thru the > smoke, you're taking a big risk. If you don't have smoke turned on, > you can't see cars getting out of shape until you're right up on > them, and you sometimes can't slow down in time so you smack into > them. > > I like the smoke thing (afterall, it adds a bit of excitement and > illustrates cars in trouble very early), but roof view at least makes > me competitive on the road courses. It's also safer to drive that > way because you can see problems on the track in time to prepare for > some kind of avoidance manuever. On ovals it provides no benefit > unless my hood is pushed up and blocking the windshield. > > I don't participate in races where cockpit view is forced on because > I think it's a bit presumptuous on the part of the server admin (on > pickup races) to assume that everyone else wants to share in his > sense of "realism", and it's now very safe in an online setting > anyway. > > I think Papy blew it when they didn't give admins a way to force the > driving aids off. To me, those settings create more of an advantage > than what view you drive from. >

:-) Achim "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7EqF9.165354$QZ.27338@sccrnsc02... ... > Short-term that would be an equalizer, but the long term plan is tohave > EVERYONE comfortable with the same view....mine....:) > Maybe I should run for King or something > dave henrie > >

Tsk tsk, you were a menace for the others if you could only see 10% and still continued to drive from cockpit ;-) Achim "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PCqF9.166195$1O2.11773@sccrnsc04... ... > One of my very first online races was the short oval at Martinsville. > There was the usual first lap pile up and I managed to tbone one of thecars > that got involved. The hood obscurred 90% of my field of view. I wasabout > to duck into the pits for repairs when I noticed I was 2nd. So I stayed > out. I took the highest line I could and just motored around. Only a few > of the fellows that went into the pits for repairs got out in time tounlap > themselves enough to get ahead of me in the standings. I think I finished > about 5th overall. Back in the joystick days...I was quite pleased with > that result. > stayed inside the whole way. > dave henrie

>I realize that seems harsh, but I don't >see what the difference is between racing from the roof cam and, say, >editing the nr2002.exe so my car has 50 more horsepower. Having 50 >more horsepower would make the game less realistic but a lot more fun. Well, in your opinion at least it'd be more fun. I think it'd be more of a pain in the ass to drive road courses and short tracks then! :) ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, http://simcrash.fameflame.dk