N2k2 Driving Aids - The Clutch

This is _not_ a contribution to the Roof Riding / Driving Aids thread - but a question I've always asked myself, and that thread reminded me again. I've always wondered what the clutch driving aid is for. For all I've heard you have to lift briefly while shifting, no matter whether you use the clutch aid or not. Is this so, and if yes, what's the advantage of using this driving aid? For the record, I don't have a hardware clutch, but have never used the clutch driving aid either, and I don't think that's ever caused me a mechanical failure. Does this driving aid really do anything? Thanks in advance for your replies. Achim

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:as4qjg$oa4vj$[email hidden]... > This is _not_ a contribution to the Roof Riding / Driving Aids thread -but

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> a question I've always asked myself, and that thread reminded me again. > > I've always wondered what the clutch driving aid is for. > > For all I've heard you have to lift briefly while shifting, no matter > whether you use the clutch aid or not. Is this so, and if yes, what's the > advantage of using this driving aid? > > For the record, I don't have a hardware clutch, but have never used the > clutch driving aid either, and I don't think that's ever caused me a > mechanical failure. > > Does this driving aid really do anything? > > Thanks in advance for your replies. > > Achim

It blips the throttle on downchanges. That is all. I don't use it, I have a clutch. I heel and toe. More fun :-) Mark Reading, UK

thanks for the info Mark! Achim "Mark Davison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:as4uh4$4ne$[email hidden]...

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> > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:as4qjg$oa4vj$[email hidden]... > > This is _not_ a contribution to the Roof Riding / Driving Aids thread - > but > > a question I've always asked myself, and that thread reminded me again. > > > > I've always wondered what the clutch driving aid is for. > > > > For all I've heard you have to lift briefly while shifting, no matter > > whether you use the clutch aid or not. Is this so, and if yes, what's

the

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> > advantage of using this driving aid? > > > > For the record, I don't have a hardware clutch, but have never used the > > clutch driving aid either, and I don't think that's ever caused me a > > mechanical failure. > > > > Does this driving aid really do anything? > > > > Thanks in advance for your replies. > > > > Achim > > It blips the throttle on downchanges. > > That is all. > > I don't use it, I have a clutch. I heel and toe. More fun :-) > > Mark > Reading, UK > >

Mark Davison wrote:

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> > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:as4qjg$oa4vj$[email hidden]... > > This is _not_ a contribution to the Roof Riding / Driving Aids thread - > but > > a question I've always asked myself, and that thread reminded me again. > > > > I've always wondered what the clutch driving aid is for. > > > > For all I've heard you have to lift briefly while shifting, no matter > > whether you use the clutch aid or not. Is this so, and if yes, what's the > > advantage of using this driving aid? > > > > For the record, I don't have a hardware clutch, but have never used the > > clutch driving aid either, and I don't think that's ever caused me a > > mechanical failure. > > > > Does this driving aid really do anything? > > > > Thanks in advance for your replies. > > > > Achim > > It blips the throttle on downchanges. > > That is all. > > I don't use it, I have a clutch. I heel and toe. More fun :-)

I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would sort the men from the boyz. ;) Gerry

"Gerry Aitken" > > I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would > sort the men from the boyz. ;) > > Gerry I have tried usingheal & toe in my real car...I definately would be one of the boys... (maybe I need some Irish Spring) dave henrie --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02

>I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would >sort the men from the boyz. ;) > >Gerry I don't even know _how_ to heel and toe. I can't ever get an explanation that makes any sense whatsoever.... ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

> I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would > sort the men from the boyz. ;) Real men don't heel and toe - they left foot brake.

"Dan Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would > >sort the men from the boyz. ;) > > > >Gerry > > > I don't even know _how_ to heel and toe. I can't ever get an explanation

that > makes any sense whatsoever.... > It's a misnomer. Think rather of Big Toe/Little Toe. Your left foot handles the clutch, your right foot is set in between the gas and brake. You roll your foot off the brake and press the gas. reversing the process to slow down. Ideally you should never have to move either foot off the pedals. dave henrie

Damien Smith wrote: > > > I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would > > sort the men from the boyz. ;) > > Real men don't heel and toe - they left foot brake. So you're saying left foot braking is harder than H&T?

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:asevk4$qo651$[email hidden]... > > I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would > > sort the men from the boyz. ;) > > Real men don't heel and toe - they left foot brake. > Try left foot braking in your road car, then try changing gear*... oh no, where has my third foot gone? That's the whole point of heel/toe, it allows you to press all three pedals at once with only two feet. * if you drive an automatic, you won't understand what changing gear is. Go get a real car.

"Dan Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I don't even know _how_ to heel and toe. I can't ever get an explanationthat > makes any sense whatsoever.... Imagine you are driving along at 60mph on a main road, coming up to a junction you need to turn down. It is a right angled turn, so you need to slow down quite a bit. You are currently in 5th gear. You take your foot off the gas, and hit the brake with your right foot. You now have engine braking as the revs are coming down and the clutch is still engaged (engine braking is the reverse effect of engine accelerating - the engine is trying to drive the wheels slower than they currently are rotating, so it slows them down), and you also have braking coming from the brakes themselves. When the revs come right down, the engine is no longer having much braking effect on the wheels, and if you don't change gear the wheels will force the engine to slow down until eventually it will vibrate badly and then stall when the road speed gets very low. So you need to change down a gear to 4th. So far, this is nothing to do with heel/toe, this is just what happens every time you decelerate. If you have taken your test recently here in the UK, they teach you to hit the clutch and hold it in while you continue braking, then when you are at the speed you desire, select the appropriate gear (lets say 2nd), take your foot off the clutch and drive on. This is the easiest and worst method of slowing a car down - you might say that it is the slowest method of slowing down. It takes longest. An alternative is to hit the clutch, move the gear lever from 5th to 4th, and release the clutch to engage 4th gear, while still braking. When you hit the clutch, the engine revs (which were already pretty low), will drop to idle. The engine revs will be forced up as you engage the gear because the new gear tries to make the engine run faster, and at the same time the engine is trying to make the wheels run slower - engine braking again. You then repeat this for 4th to 3rd and 3rd to 2nd, so you have 4 periods of engine braking during your slowing down period (5th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd gear), instead of just one (5th gear). This requires more effort, but no more skill than the above method and will have a larger braking effect, thus slowing the car quicker, taking less time to slow down. The problem with the above method is this: when you change gear, the synchromesh will not engage the gear until the revs of the input and output shafts in the gearbox are relatively similar, so when you take your foot off the clutch, the engine is only partially engaged to the wheels until it has been forced to gain revs, before the connection is fully made and engine braking can occur with maximum effect. That's why the engine note increases as you engage the next gear, before decreasing again as engine braking takes effect. Surely there is a quicker way of getting the engine revs up, especially as you want to do it when you have your foot on the clutch? Oh yes, the throttle! Surely it would be faster still (faster to slow down, that is) if you didn't have to wait for the synchromesh/clutch combination, and just blipped the throttle with the clutch in while you were moving the gear stick from 5th to 4th? Yes it is. The only problem is, you will be using all three pedals at once, with only two feet. That's why you heel/toe. Actually you don't have to heel/toe (some people find it quite hard to rotate their foot sideways so that their toes are on the brake and their heel is on the throttle), you can do it in a rocking motion, so the left side of your foot is on the brake and the right side of your foot is on the throttle. So the sequence is this: 1) Take your right foot off the throttle, and put it on the brake. Engine braking and regular braking will slow the car down. 2) When the revs reach almost idle, put your left foot on the clutch and depress it. 3) At the same time, roll/rotate your right foot to blip the throttle, and move the gear stick from 5th to 4th. 4) Release the clutch. Repeat 2/3/4 until you have the gear you need. Heel/toeing is the fastest way to reduce speed, which is why almost all rally drivers do it. I remember from the foot cam at Portland this year that Dario Franchitti does it as well. They don't do it in F1 (because there is no clutch pedal, although some might say that is because the pay-to-race drivers can't do it...). The problems are numerous. In a race in a car without ABS, you are constantly altering the pressure on the brake in order to maximise their effect. To do this at the same time as rotating your foot to blip the throttle is quite hard. Also, blipping the throttle the right amount that the engine revs are almost perfect when you release the clutch is quite hard also. The idea is you blip the throttle in the time it takes you to move the gear stick, so there is no time lost, so it can get quite hectic down there in the footwell. Not to mention the manual dexterity required to perform the action in itself is pretty tricky to learn. I use it occasionally on the roads. It has got me out of trouble a couple of times, when an emergency stop from speed was required whilst still retaining steering control (no ABS on my car). And thanks to the electronics in the engine of my car at the moment, there are some temperature ranges when it can't decide whether to choke or not, resulting in the engine just stalling the first time you hit the clutch (which is fun because the power steering gives up at the same time...). The only way to avoid this (without spending money), is to heel/toe until the engine warms up, simply to keep the revs well above idle every time I stop. I get some funny looks from the road-walking folk, and it's kinda ironic that they think it's because I can't drive properly, when in fact I am doing things most drivers on the road can't manage ;-) Hope that helps your understanding. If you don't understand something in there, just reply in the newsgroup and I'll get back to you. Cheers, Nick.

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> It's a misnomer. Think rather of Big Toe/Little Toe. Your left foot >handles the clutch, your right foot is set in between the gas and brake. >You roll your foot off the brake and press the gas. reversing the process >to slow down. Ideally you should never have to move either foot off the >pedals. >dave henrie >

So when downshifting, engage the clutch while at the same time taking my foot slightly off the brake and applying a quick blip of throttle, then changing down the gear, then back on the brakes and disengage the clutch. Okay, wow, that sounds like a severe pain in the ass! How much throttle do you have to apply, etc.? ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

Dan Belcher wrote:

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> > > It's a misnomer. Think rather of Big Toe/Little Toe. Your left foot > >handles the clutch, your right foot is set in between the gas and brake. > >You roll your foot off the brake and press the gas. reversing the process > >to slow down. Ideally you should never have to move either foot off the > >pedals. > >dave henrie > > > > So when downshifting, engage the clutch while at the same time taking my foot > slightly off the brake and applying a quick blip of throttle, then changing > down the gear, then back on the brakes and disengage the clutch. Okay, wow, > that sounds like a severe pain in the ass! How much throttle do you have to > apply, etc.?

Well, "heel'n toe" is something you use if you need to match the engine revs to the speed of the gear box as you release the clutch to avoid the rear wheels from breaking traction when you release the clutch, so if you expect your engine revs in the lower gear to be at 7.5k, you need to blip the throttle long/hard enough to make sure the engine revs are in that rev range when you release the clutch, tricky.... And you don't actually release the brakes while blipping the throttle either, you're still expected to brake at near 100% efficiency the whole time, you just move the heel of your foot over to the throttle and give it a quick prod while you still keep the same pressure with the rest of the foot on the brake pedal A nascar stocker for instance has a hefty engine braking potential vs available grip compared to an F1 car, so it becomes even more important there, but even in a road car you can feel the rear wheels braking traction if you downshift under full braking and let the clutch out abruptly, especially if it's a RWD I know I should learn this but I'm having a hard time getting my feet to cooperate Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

dont forget that most race cars dont have synchromesh gear boxes, and what you get instead is drive line snatch where the rears will just lock up on you if you come off the clutch too quickly without heel and toeing. pez "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:asfpd7$q6qp6$[email hidden]... > > "Dan Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I don't even know _how_ to heel and toe. I can't ever get anexplanation

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> that > > makes any sense whatsoever.... > > Imagine you are driving along at 60mph on a main road, coming up to a > junction you need to turn down. It is a right angled turn, so you need to > slow down quite a bit. You are currently in 5th gear. > > You take your foot off the gas, and hit the brake with your right foot.

You > now have engine braking as the revs are coming down and the clutch isstill > engaged (engine braking is the reverse effect of engine accelerating - the > engine is trying to drive the wheels slower than they currently are > rotating, so it slows them down), and you also have braking coming fromthe > brakes themselves. > > When the revs come right down, the engine is no longer having much braking > effect on the wheels, and if you don't change gear the wheels will forcethe > engine to slow down until eventually it will vibrate badly and then stall > when the road speed gets very low. So you need to change down a gear to4th. > > So far, this is nothing to do with heel/toe, this is just what happensevery > time you decelerate. > > If you have taken your test recently here in the UK, they teach you to hit > the clutch and hold it in while you continue braking, then when you are at > the speed you desire, select the appropriate gear (lets say 2nd), takeyour > foot off the clutch and drive on. This is the easiest and worst method of > slowing a car down - you might say that it is the slowest method ofslowing > down. It takes longest. > > An alternative is to hit the clutch, move the gear lever from 5th to 4th, > and release the clutch to engage 4th gear, while still braking. When youhit > the clutch, the engine revs (which were already pretty low), will drop to > idle. The engine revs will be forced up as you engage the gear because the > new gear tries to make the engine run faster, and at the same time the > engine is trying to make the wheels run slower - engine braking again. You > then repeat this for 4th to 3rd and 3rd to 2nd, so you have 4 periods of > engine braking during your slowing down period (5th, 4th, 3rd and 2ndgear), > instead of just one (5th gear). This requires more effort, but no moreskill > than the above method and will have a larger braking effect, thus slowing > the car quicker, taking less time to slow down. > > The problem with the above method is this: when you change gear, the > synchromesh will not engage the gear until the revs of the input andoutput > shafts in the gearbox are relatively similar, so when you take your footoff > the clutch, the engine is only partially engaged to the wheels until ithas > been forced to gain revs, before the connection is fully made and engine > braking can occur with maximum effect. That's why the engine noteincreases > as you engage the next gear, before decreasing again as engine brakingtakes > effect. Surely there is a quicker way of getting the engine revs up, > especially as you want to do it when you have your foot on the clutch? Oh > yes, the throttle! Surely it would be faster still (faster to slow down, > that is) if you didn't have to wait for the synchromesh/clutchcombination, > and just blipped the throttle with the clutch in while you were moving the > gear stick from 5th to 4th? Yes it is. The only problem is, you will be > using all three pedals at once, with only two feet. That's why youheel/toe. > > Actually you don't have to heel/toe (some people find it quite hard to > rotate their foot sideways so that their toes are on the brake and their > heel is on the throttle), you can do it in a rocking motion, so the left > side of your foot is on the brake and the right side of your foot is onthe

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> throttle. > > So the sequence is this: > > 1) Take your right foot off the throttle, and put it on the brake. Engine > braking and regular braking will slow the car down. > 2) When the revs reach almost idle, put your left foot on the clutch and > depress it. > 3) At the same time, roll/rotate your right foot to blip the throttle, and > move the gear stick from 5th to 4th. > 4) Release the clutch. > > Repeat 2/3/4 until you have the gear you need. > > Heel/toeing is the fastest way to reduce speed, which is why almost all > rally drivers do it. I remember from the foot cam at Portland this year

that > Dario Franchitti does it as well. They don't do it in F1 (because there is > no clutch pedal, although some might say that is because the pay-to-race > drivers can't do it...). The problems are numerous. In a race in a car > without ABS, you are constantly altering the pressure on the brake inorder > to maximise their effect. To do this at the same time as rotating yourfoot

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> to blip the throttle is quite hard. Also, blipping the throttle the right > amount that the engine revs are almost perfect when you release the clutch > is quite hard also. The idea is you blip the throttle in the time it takes > you to move the gear stick, so there is no time lost, so it can get quite > hectic down there in the footwell. Not to mention the manual dexterity > required to perform the action in itself is pretty tricky to learn. > > I use it occasionally on the roads. It has got me out of trouble a couple

of > times, when an emergency stop from speed was required whilst stillretaining > steering control (no ABS on my car). And thanks to the electronics in the > engine of my car at the moment, there are some temperature ranges when it > can't decide whether to choke or not, resulting in the engine juststalling > the first time you hit the clutch (which is fun because the power steering > gives up at the same time...). The only way to avoid this (withoutspending

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> money), is to heel/toe until the engine warms up, simply to keep the revs > well above idle every time I stop. I get some funny looks from the > road-walking folk, and it's kinda ironic that they think it's because I > can't drive properly, when in fact I am doing things most drivers on the > road can't manage ;-) > > Hope that helps your understanding. If you don't understand something in > there, just reply in the newsgroup and I'll get back to you. > > Cheers, > > Nick. > >

"Alex 'pez' Porazinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:asgr2a$s86$[email hidden]... > dont forget that most race cars dont have synchromesh gear boxes, and what > you get instead is drive line snatch where the rears will just lock up on > you if you come off the clutch too quickly without heel and toeing. > > pez Yes, stick that in the section at the end, it was only meant to be an 'Idiots guide to Heel/Toeing'...

Hi Gerry, it would be more realistic to punish or reward certain driving styles, but it wouldn't affect the relative speed of different drivers. Good sim drivers will simply adjust to new requirements ;) Achim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. > That would sort the men from the boyz. ;)

having been punted off at a corner when a guy behind me (who is now racing f3....grrrrrr) spun whilst changing down because he couldnt heel and toe, id put it at the beginning :) pez "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:asgrso$onr8g$[email hidden]... > > "Alex 'pez' Porazinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:asgr2a$s86$[email hidden]... > > dont forget that most race cars dont have synchromesh gear boxes, andwhat > > you get instead is drive line snatch where the rears will just lock upon

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> > you if you come off the clutch too quickly without heel and toeing. > > > > pez > > Yes, stick that in the section at the end, it was only meant to be an > 'Idiots guide to Heel/Toeing'... > >

On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:19:28 -0000, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:asevk4$qo651$[email hidden]... >> > I wish there was an option to force heel and toe on a server. That would >> > sort the men from the boyz. ;) >> >> Real men don't heel and toe - they left foot brake. >> > >Try left foot braking in your road car, then try changing gear*... oh no, >where has my third foot gone? That's the whole point of heel/toe, it allows >you to press all three pedals at once with only two feet.

It can be done. It's hard, but possible to shift both up and down without using the clutch. You have to engage the gear when the revs are matched. It's pretty easy(well...) shifting up, just disengage the gear when you're off the throttle and put in the next one when the revs have fallen so the gear slides in. Shifting down is harder, same principle but with blipping before sliding in the lower gear. Foul up and you get a nice "rickety-rackety"(I'm sure the synchro's don't like that either) ;-) No forcing gears also or you'll bend the forks!