Gran Turismo Best game until Operation Flashpoint or not?

I am trying to grasp why Gran Turismo Has only gone development for PlayStation other than a small demo I saw once. Do the game makers really know what this game is worth on a pc? Are they there for the Brand or the dollars ? Dollars With the extensive realism this game placed on a little playstation what lyes on the PC or Personal Computer is Far more beyound the comprehension or this little kids toy with bad graphics(good in the day). Gran Turismo is a one and only in its class until the realism of Operation FlashPoint lurked. What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right could fetch up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a fraction better. Really you cannot ever compare any game to the first Gran Turismo with the others following simply because it had to live up to its fans who would purchase the next game wether it was really all there or not.(even though the graphics sucked and the cars all handled the same with a drif spirit in them all) ----------------------------------------------------- Just annother Programmer Spinning Out

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote something like this: >Gran Turismo is a one and only in its class until the realism of Operation >FlashPoint lurked. I guess it's my turn: GT is nice, but It's no GPL...... <g> Besides, there's no cockpit view in GT. And the physics of the cars in OFP weren't exactly realistic, although they had cocpit views... -- - Igor -

something like this: I guess it's my turn: GT is nice, but It's no GPL...... <g> Besides, there's no***pit view in GT. And the physics of the cars in OFP weren't exactly realistic, although they had cocpit views... -- - Igor -

Jesse wrote: > I am trying to grasp why Gran Turismo Has only gone development for > PlayStation other than a small demo I saw once. > Do the game makers really know what this game is worth on a pc? > Are they there for the Brand or the dollars ? Dollars Because it's made (sort of) by Sony and thus is one of the biggest reasons for people to buy a playstaion in the first place. If you make it for the PC you'll see far fewer playstations. It's a killer app. A game that you go and buy a console just so you can play it.

"Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3df6caa4$[email hidden]>...

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> I am trying to grasp why Gran Turismo Has only gone development for > PlayStation other than a small demo I saw once. > Do the game makers really know what this game is worth on a pc? > Are they there for the Brand or the dollars ? Dollars > > With the extensive realism this game placed on a little playstation what > lyes on the PC or Personal Computer is > Far more beyound the comprehension or this little kids toy with bad > graphics(good in the day). > > Gran Turismo is a one and only in its class until the realism of Operation > FlashPoint lurked. > > What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right could fetch > up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a fraction > better. > > Really you cannot ever compare any game to the first Gran Turismo with the > others following simply because it had to live up to its fans who would > purchase the next game wether it was really all there or not.(even though > the graphics sucked and the cars all handled the same with a drif spirit in > them all) > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Just annother Programmer Spinning Out

I would have agreed that SOMEONE needed to come out with GT (or GT3, specifically) for the PC, at least until GTR2002 was unveiled. The was a real lacking in the sports car sim market , IMHO, and only NFS:PU came close, but wasn't really "racing". It was more like "on the road" rallying. GTR2002 fills that void and I still cannot fathom how ISI/EA doesn't snatch up the lads at SBDT and put the at the top of the payroll. If they could solve the issue with the graphics, i.e. looking like cartoons, (and that has nothing to do with SBDT) this would be an all time great. Comparisons to GPL are well deserved as each car has a personality and it takes time to learn each one. While perhaps the expansion of GTR2002 is limited, as the team is already talking of GTR2003, GTR2002 will be on my HD for quite a while and I will nominate it for "Prince of All Sims". Lawman

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: >these PC titles if produced right could fetch >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a fraction >better. Doubtful.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > GTR2002 fills that void and I still cannot fathom how ISI/EA doesn't > snatch up the lads at SBDT and put the at the top of the payroll. > We DON'T want them to do that. Although Doug and company probably wouldn't mind ;-) -- __________________________ Todd Walker http://twalker.d2g.com __________________________

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right could fetch >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a fraction >better. If by "produced right" you mean a hooker delivers it and lets you splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree. Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy simulations discussed here. Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge that they are just that -games.

Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator a game? or Software Also Im sure that mid season of the first Gran Turismo release some people would have been more than happy to fork out big bucks. I have quite a friends(never used a computer before) even queryed playing computer games and purchasing a playstation duing the first months of this release. Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game Gran Turimo 2 -3 are games. I built(Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal gear ratio's) a Mazda RX4 (RealOne)to beat most modern modern cars using the gear ratio's calculated from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a thousand combinations of weight to power ,although the car is illegal is annother story but the specs worked out within 10th of a sec right. (no I dont play Gran Turismo any More) I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a Software liecence?) Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which converts it to a GT ?) Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi) Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com with popular game sites? ---------------------------------------------------- Just annother Programmer spewing all over the floor "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right couldfetch

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> >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a fraction > >better. > > If by "produced right" you mean a hooker delivers it and lets you > splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree. > Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy > simulations discussed here. > > Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge that > they are just that -games. > >

GPL is the greatest single peice of software ever created and after 4 yrs is still probly the best game ever for racing (at least round proper tracks :). IMO (having only played gt1/2/3 on consoles)gpl is about...2 million times better. dan "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3df8eae6$[email hidden]... > Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator agame?

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> or Software > > Also Im sure that mid season of the first Gran Turismo release some people > would have been more than happy to fork out big bucks. > I have quite a friends(never used a computer before) even queryed playing > computer games and purchasing a playstation duing the first months of this > release. > > Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game Gran Turimo 2 -3 are > games. > I built(Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal gear ratio's) a Mazda

RX4 > (RealOne)to beat most modern modern cars using the gear ratio's calculated > from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a thousand combinations ofweight > to power ,although the car is illegal is annother story but the specsworked

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> out within 10th of a sec right. > (no I dont play Gran Turismo any More) > > I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a Software liecence?) > > Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which converts it to a > GT ?) > Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi) > > Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com with popular game > sites? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Just annother Programmer spewing all over the floor > > > "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right could > fetch > > >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a

fraction

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> > >better. > > > > If by "produced right" you mean a hooker delivers it and lets you > > splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree. > > Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy > > simulations discussed here. > > > > Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge that > > they are just that -games. > > > > > >

"Jesse" wrote... > Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy > simulator? Is a simulator a game? or Software A simulation is a simulation, both the game and the simulation are software by default.

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> <snip> > Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game > Gran Turimo 2 -3 are games. > I built (Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal > gear ratio's) a Mazda RX4 (RealOne)to beat most > modern modern cars using the gear ratio's calculated > from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a > thousand combinations of weight to power, although > the car is illegal is annother story but the specs > worked out within 10th of a sec right. (no I dont > play Gran Turismo any More)

Surprising result to say the least. > I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a > Software liecence?) It's short for GNU Public Licence, yes. However, on this forum, GPL refers to Grand Prix Legends by Papyrus, the most sofisticated mass market real time simulation on the PC four years ago and still in the top 6, IMO. www.papy.com and countless other sites offer more information than you will ever care to know. Features, along with NR2002, the best internet multiplayer code of any racing game in my experience. > Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which > converts it to a GT ?) Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi) GTR2002 takes EA's F1 2002, which wasn't all that bad in it's own right (on the PC) and lifts it to a higher level. A much, *much* higher level. The "amateur" (i.e. they didn't get payed for it, otherwise each of them is a Pro in my book) mod squad at www.simmods.com have, IMO, outdone both ISI (team behind EA F1 2002 PC version) and Papyrus (kings of the hill until recently) in the single player experience. > Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com > with popular game sites? I think there is a slight discrepancy in the amount of funding and PR behind the respective efforts. <g> Jan. =---

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:00:44 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: [snip] >Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator a game? >or Software Try these for starters -"get" being a relative term. http://www.inrets.fr/ur/sara/Pg_simus_e.html http://www.simulatorsystems.com/ http://www.careflight.org/Bell_Simulator_Training.htm http://www.faros.com/english/auto/index.htm http://www.ascent-uk.co.uk/index.html http://www.weaverling.org/atc/sim/ http://www.es.com/solutions/driving+training/index.asp http://www.mi.mun.ca/mi/cms/facilities.htm http://www.danmar.dk/services/courses/courses_main.htm http://www.siskiyous.edu/vocationaleducation/driving/ http://www.hctsc.org/ http://www.pttinc.com/classroom.htm http://www.ascilite.org.au/ajet/ajet9/gatto.html http://redrock.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PATHFINDER/aisrp93/storm_research/tornado.html

No idea why personalised opinion rules over fact. Some how I gather pricing and availability to be 2 different storys as unreal game engine is about $2 million and this engine sux and is far from a simulator possible engine without a rewrite in no more ways than a desktop trash can. Also alot of these so called commerical simulators are not really simulators they just mock fatigue and visuals for endurence and response effectivness as far as actual dynamics are concerned they are very limited even campared to the 1985 2D commodore 64 games. I could not help but scan over this GPL being Grad prix Legends which is a simulator game so called made usable for the end user in a ploy for marketing and fame, which turns out to be just aliitle not fun with sabby graphics Also I looked into the F1 2002 which turns out to be and EA sports game upon all are made for playability and fun rather than simulation with a hint that simulation can be possible if the imagination rules the over the job at hand. as for the GTR MOD it would be rather easy to play graphic desigher for a day and play with some config files to create a few more cars which do nothing other than mock the game itself. ------------------------------------------------------ Just annother programmer getting more confused due to having to think for a day "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:00:44 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > [snip] > > >Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator agame?

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> >or Software > > Try these for starters -"get" being a relative term. > > http://www.inrets.fr/ur/sara/Pg_simus_e.html > http://www.simulatorsystems.com/ > http://www.careflight.org/Bell_Simulator_Training.htm > http://www.faros.com/english/auto/index.htm > http://www.ascent-uk.co.uk/index.html > http://www.weaverling.org/atc/sim/ > http://www.es.com/solutions/driving+training/index.asp > http://www.mi.mun.ca/mi/cms/facilities.htm > http://www.danmar.dk/services/courses/courses_main.htm > http://www.siskiyous.edu/vocationaleducation/driving/ > http://www.hctsc.org/ > http://www.pttinc.com/classroom.htm > http://www.ascilite.org.au/ajet/ajet9/gatto.html >

http://redrock.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PATHFINDER/aisrp93/storm_research/tornado.html > > >

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 03:38:28 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: >as for the GTR MOD it would be rather easy to play graphic desigher for a >day and play with some config files to create a few more cars which do >nothing other than mock the game itself. I normally don't back away from arguing with idiots, but this time I have to pass. I honestly don't even know where to begin, other than to say that you should do some research into the arguments you're making. At this point you're discussing things that you have no experience with or knowledge of. As far as GTR2002 goes, it was designed by an accomplished professional sports car race engineer using data from his actual shop. It has been tested by drivers for the FIA GT series and other top sports car drivers in order to make sure that the driving feel and actual mechanics of the car and tires are as convincing as possible given the limitations of PC hardware. Another simulation that is worth keeping an eye on is Nascar 2003 which is being released by the developers of Indycar Racing, Grand Prix Legends and the Nascar Racing Series. Always a few steps ahead of other simulations, this year's version (the final in the series) is based around data that has been gathered with the assistance of Goodyear Tire and Jasper Motorsports. Early previews from the race engineer involved in the project indicates that tires will heat and wear in a way that is completely authentic and that setups can be taken directly from a real stock car and applied to the sim. All of this said, we are still a full decade at best from having a 100% authentic race car simulator. However, the above games, as well as Grand Prix Legends, all reward using real life racing techniques and car setup theory. The Gran Turismo series does a great job of allowing someone to experience the thrill of driving high performance cars with a gamepad. Then again, so does Sega GT 2002, and Project Gotham Racing, Metropolis Street Racer, Rallisport Challenge, and F355 all arguably do an ever better job. I don't see any one playing these games and talking about optimal tire temperatures or traction circles, then again I'm not sure that those basic concepts of driving a car really apply in those particular game worlds. Generally it's hold down the throttle trigger for as long as possible, hit the brake trigger as late as possible (often while still holding the throttle trigger), hit the throttle trigger as quickly as possible and hold it down. In GT type game there's really no point in practicing things like trail braking since raw lateral velocity is more important than weight transfer when determining the optimal line through a corner. Anyway, do yourself a favor and get a decent PC wheel and copies of the above mentioned simulations. Jason

If you take a broader view which looks at other genres, Falcon 4 is probably the best piece of simulation software ever created. FAR more depth than GPL. The dynamic campaign is remarkable on its own, and probably more technically complex than GPL in its entirety. -- Joe M. "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ataqt9$12hpcq$[email hidden]... > GPL is the greatest single peice of software ever created and after 4 yrs is > still probly the best game ever for racing (at least round proper tracks :). > IMO (having only played gt1/2/3 on consoles)gpl is about...2 million times > better. > dan > "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3df8eae6$[email hidden]... > > Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator a > game? > > or Software > > > > Also Im sure that mid season of the first Gran Turismo release some people > > would have been more than happy to fork out big bucks. > > I have quite a friends(never used a computer before) even queryed playing > > computer games and purchasing a playstation duing the first months of this > > release. > > > > Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game Gran Turimo 2 -3 are > > games. > > I built(Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal gear ratio's) a Mazda > RX4 > > (RealOne)to beat most modern modern cars using the gear ratio's calculated > > from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a thousand combinations of > weight > > to power ,although the car is illegal is annother story but the specs > worked > > out within 10th of a sec right. > > (no I dont play Gran Turismo any More) > > > > I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a Software liecence?) > > > > Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which converts it to a > > GT ?) > > Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi) > > > > Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com with popular game > > sites? > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Just annother Programmer spewing all over the floor > > > > > > "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right could > > fetch > > > >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a > fraction > > > >better. > > > > > > If by "produced right" you mean a hooker delivers it and lets you > > > splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree. > > > Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy > > > simulations discussed here. > > > > > > Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge that > > > they are just that -games. > > > > > > > > > > > >

I suspect you're just a troll but I can't resist. You're such an ignorant ass that morons around the world are scrambling to develop a new term to address your level of stupidity to save their once proud name. You are not even capable of appreciating the depth of foolishness you just displayed in one careless rant. Although God clearly had a sense of humor when he unleashed you on the world, I suspect he never fully appreciated the wonderful efficiency you would gain on a public forum. In the early days, a jackass of your magnitude could only reach dozens of victims in a local public venue. Now one complete horses ass like yourself can entertain the masses in a few simple key strokes. Thanks for fulfilling your destiny. -- Joe M. "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > No idea why personalised opinion rules over fact. > > Some how I gather pricing and availability to be 2 different storys as > unreal game engine is about $2 million and this engine sux and is far from a > simulator possible engine without a rewrite in no more ways than a desktop > trash can. > Also alot of these so called commerical simulators are not really simulators > they just mock fatigue and visuals for endurence and response effectivness > as far as actual dynamics are concerned they are very limited even campared > to the 1985 2D commodore 64 games. > > I could not help but scan over this GPL being Grad prix Legends which is a > simulator game so called made usable for the end user in a ploy for > marketing and fame, which turns out to be just aliitle not fun with sabby > graphics > > Also I looked into the F1 2002 which turns out to be and EA sports game upon > all are made for playability and fun rather than simulation with a hint that > simulation can be possible if the imagination rules the over the job at > hand. > as for the GTR MOD it would be rather easy to play graphic desigher for a > day and play with some config files to create a few more cars which do > nothing other than mock the game itself. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Just annother programmer getting more confused due to having to think for a > day > > > "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:00:44 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > >Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator a > game? > > >or Software > > > > Try these for starters -"get" being a relative term. > > > > http://www.inrets.fr/ur/sara/Pg_simus_e.html > > http://www.simulatorsystems.com/ > > http://www.careflight.org/Bell_Simulator_Training.htm > > http://www.faros.com/english/auto/index.htm > > http://www.ascent-uk.co.uk/index.html > > http://www.weaverling.org/atc/sim/ > > http://www.es.com/solutions/driving+training/index.asp > > http://www.mi.mun.ca/mi/cms/facilities.htm > > http://www.danmar.dk/services/courses/courses_main.htm > > http://www.siskiyous.edu/vocationaleducation/driving/ > > http://www.hctsc.org/ > > http://www.pttinc.com/classroom.htm > > http://www.ascilite.org.au/ajet/ajet9/gatto.html > > > http://redrock.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PATHFINDER/aisrp93/storm_research/tornado.html > > > > > > > >

>"Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote > I could not help but scan over this GPL being Grad prix Legends which is a > simulator game so called made usable for the end user in a ploy for > marketing and fame, which turns out to be just aliitle not fun with sabby > graphics LOL just a troll people. "Move along, move along" - Random Stormtrooper -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 03:38:28 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > All of this said, we are still a full decade at best from having a > 100% authentic race car simulator. However, the above games, as well > as Grand Prix Legends, all reward using real life racing techniques > and car setup theory. Both points agreed. Finally somebody who realises that GPL isn't the last word in racing simulations <g>. And we'll ignore the, uh, 'idiosynracies' in NR2002 setup... > The Gran Turismo series does a great job of > allowing someone to experience the thrill of driving high performance > cars with a gamepad. Then again, so does Sega GT 2002, and Project > Gotham Racing, Metropolis Street Racer, Rallisport Challenge, and F355 > all arguably do an ever better job. No, I think GT3 stands head and shoulders above all of those other games in terms of the feel of what the car is doing. GT3 is the only game I have ever played (with the exception of the GTR2002 mod) which felt like driving a car in real life. And that includes Papy sims. GTR2002 is better than all Papy sims for this feel. Neither GTR2002 nor GT3 have it yet, but GT3 is on one side of the peak, and GTR2002 is on the other. > I don't see any one playing these > games and talking about optimal tire temperatures or traction circles, > then again I'm not sure that those basic concepts of driving a car > really apply in those particular game worlds. Firstly, optimal tyre temps and traction circles are not basic concepts of driving a car. Racing a car, yes, but not driving. Neither GPL nor NASCAR 2002 model optimal tyre temps realistically, and there are plently of fantastic GPL drivers who don't know about traction circles. Traction circles, after all, are a graphical aid to help understand the actions of a car. Some people are born with this innate ability, some people learn it from driving, some people learn it from a piece of paper with concentric circles on. If you say 'traction circle' to the first two sets of people, you'll get a blank look. If you then show them a traction circle readout, they will know exactly what you are talking about, but they just represent it differently in their mind. If you do take these things into account when driving in NR2002, GPL or GT, then arguably you will be a better racer in all of these games, but they are not necessary. Also bear in mind that GT does something that Papy never figured out - it appeals to Mr. Average. That's why there is an arcade mode (which used to come on it's own CD in GT2). You don't need to care about things like tyre temps in there, and most people play this part of the game because they just want to see the Pug 206 they have in real life racing around. These people are the vast majority. > Generally it's hold > down the throttle trigger for as long as possible, hit the brake > trigger as late as possible (often while still holding the throttle > trigger), hit the throttle trigger as quickly as possible and hold it > down. That's the idea in all racing games. Hitting the throttle for as short a time as possible won't get you any world records ;-). Remember the throttle 'triggers' are analogue, and blasting them in Pro level in the GT One at Monaco is going to spin you out just as much as nailing the throttle in GPL or NR2002 will. And remember, most Logitech wheels work with the PS2 out of the box. Also, do I remember talk of people holding the throttle down while they brake in Papy sims? I don't know anybody who does that in GT3. > In GT type game there's really no point in practicing things > like trail braking since raw lateral velocity is more important than > weight transfer when determining the optimal line through a corner. In a 'GT type' game, that is true, but Gran Turismo itself models this much more realistically. A GPL driving style works best in GT3 in the 'exciting' cars. I am not saying that GT3 is the best sim around, I am just arguing that GT is a hell of a lot better at simulating than most folks in here give it credit for. Going into your local game store and playing the arcade mode for 15 minutes will not give you a good impression of the simulation aspect, but running through the later License Tests when the driving aids start being removed makes you realise that it is pretty advanced stuff. The number of available cars outdoes all other sims, especially as they are all modelled to perfection. GT3 is the only game where the cars actually look like they are driving on the track to me, not floating above it to a greater or lesser extent. The mix of tracks, real-life (like Laguna Seca and Monaco) and fantasy work well together (they can make tracks which are fun to drive, not be forced to model them on roundabouts or constant chicanes). And, as I mentioned before, GT3 is the only game which feels like my road car, in terms of available grip, and the feel when you start to lose it. Entry understeer coupled with exit oversteer. Tyre temps are modelled, tyre grip is modelled. Take a Lotus Elise out for an endurance race at an oval, and compare the tyre wear (graphically) with NR2002. But then realise that you can *feel* the difference. You alter your driving style and line to account for the uneven wear. In NR2002, you just need to remember to brake a touch earlier to account for slightly reduced grip. And that's not to mention the upgrade section of the game, which is utterly fantastic. These aren't just plugging in different numbers - you can feel the difference in throttle response between two relatively identical horsepower increases. And the fact that this system works accurately with all the cars in the game. Granted, all this stuff takes a while with the game to uncover, but it's not too unreasonable to ask people to have a lengthy playtest before reaching a conclusion. After all, if we all played GPL for 5 minutes before giving up, where would we all be now? Nick. (getting a bit sick and tired of arguing these points, but still a rac ing simulation fan).

Um even tho falcon 4 was the best of the lot when it came out imHo il2 is far more based in reality. Some of the features of the flight model are simply amazing dan "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > If you take a broader view which looks at other genres, Falcon 4 isprobably

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> the best piece of simulation software ever created. FAR more depth than > GPL. The dynamic campaign is remarkable on its own, and probably more > technically complex than GPL in its entirety. > > -- > Joe M. > > > "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ataqt9$12hpcq$[email hidden]... > > GPL is the greatest single peice of software ever created and after 4

yrs > is > > still probly the best game ever for racing (at least round proper tracks > :). > > IMO (having only played gt1/2/3 on consoles)gpl is about...2 milliontimes

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> > better. > > dan > > "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3df8eae6$[email hidden]... > > > Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator a > > game? > > > or Software > > > > > > Also Im sure that mid season of the first Gran Turismo release some > people > > > would have been more than happy to fork out big bucks. > > > I have quite a friends(never used a computer before) even queryed > playing > > > computer games and purchasing a playstation duing the first months of > this > > > release. > > > > > > Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game Gran Turimo 2 -3

are > > > games. > > > I built(Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal gear ratio's) aMazda

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> > RX4 > > > (RealOne)to beat most modern modern cars using the gear ratio's > calculated > > > from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a thousand combinations of > > weight > > > to power ,although the car is illegal is annother story but the specs > > worked > > > out within 10th of a sec right. > > > (no I dont play Gran Turismo any More) > > > > > > I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a Software liecence?) > > > > > > Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which converts it

to

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> a > > > GT ?) > > > Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi) > > > > > > Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com with popular > game > > > sites? > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Just annother Programmer spewing all over the floor > > > > > > > > > "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right

could

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> > > fetch > > > > >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a > > fraction > > > > >better. > > > > > > > > If by "produced right" you mean a hooker delivers it and lets you > > > > splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree. > > > > Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy > > > > simulations discussed here. > > > > > > > > Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge that > > > > they are just that -games. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Dan_Leach" < > Um even tho falcon 4 was the best of the lot when it came out imHo il2 is > far more based in reality. Some of the features of the flight model are > simply amazing > dan How can you say IL2 is better than F4? To me the both behave exactly the same. I go up. I fall down. dave henrie --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 12/6/02

What simulation is more realistic than F4 SP3? Even if IL-2 has a more accurate FM, comparing it to F4 is apples to oranges. There are dozens of highly complex instruments to model in F4 and far more weapons/enemy vehicles. Hell, the radar model in F4 is more complex than anything in a WWII simulation (guns, bombs, and rockets). It stands to reason that IL-2, given its MUCH shorter feature list and NO dynamic campaign, might be superior in some areas. It still doesn't make IL-2 a better overall piece of software. F4 stands above the crowd in the flight-sim genre. The dynamic campaign in F4 is the most elaborate ever created and would be worthy of praise were it a stand alone strategy/war game. IL-2 is just approaching a semi-dynamic campaign as a full priced "add-on" with Forgotten Battles (with nowhere near the complexity of F4). Getting back to my original point ;0) > F4 is far more sophisticated software than GPL and arguably the best piece of simulation software ever created. -- Joe M. "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:atchba$12fjv4$[email hidden]... > Um even tho falcon 4 was the best of the lot when it came out imHo il2 is > far more based in reality. Some of the features of the flight model are > simply amazing > dan > "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > If you take a broader view which looks at other genres, Falcon 4 is > probably > > the best piece of simulation software ever created. FAR more depth than > > GPL. The dynamic campaign is remarkable on its own, and probably more > > technically complex than GPL in its entirety. > > > > -- > > Joe M. > > > > > > "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ataqt9$12hpcq$[email hidden]... > > > GPL is the greatest single peice of software ever created and after 4 > yrs > > is > > > still probly the best game ever for racing (at least round proper tracks > > :). > > > IMO (having only played gt1/2/3 on consoles)gpl is about...2 million > times > > > better. > > > dan > > > "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:3df8eae6$[email hidden]... > > > > Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator a > > > game? > > > > or Software > > > > > > > > Also Im sure that mid season of the first Gran Turismo release some > > people > > > > would have been more than happy to fork out big bucks. > > > > I have quite a friends(never used a computer before) even queryed > > playing > > > > computer games and purchasing a playstation duing the first months of > > this > > > > release. > > > > > > > > Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game Gran Turimo 2 -3 > are > > > > games. > > > > I built(Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal gear ratio's) a > Mazda > > > RX4 > > > > (RealOne)to beat most modern modern cars using the gear ratio's > > calculated > > > > from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a thousand combinations of > > > weight > > > > to power ,although the car is illegal is annother story but the specs > > > worked > > > > out within 10th of a sec right. > > > > (no I dont play Gran Turismo any More) > > > > > > > > I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a Software liecence?) > > > > > > > > Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which converts it > to > > a > > > > GT ?) > > > > Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi) > > > > > > > > Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com with popular > > game > > > > sites? > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > Just annother Programmer spewing all over the floor > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:18:32 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right > could > > > > fetch > > > > > >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a > > > fraction > > > > > >better. > > > > > > > > > > If by "produced right" you mean a hooker delivers it and lets you > > > > > splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree. > > > > > Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy > > > > > simulations discussed here. > > > > > > > > > > Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge that > > > > > they are just that -games. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:atchcd$127l1s$[email hidden]...

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> > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 03:38:28 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > All of this said, we are still a full decade at best from having a > > 100% authentic race car simulator. However, the above games, as well > > as Grand Prix Legends, all reward using real life racing techniques > > and car setup theory. > > Both points agreed. Finally somebody who realises that GPL isn't the last > word in racing simulations <g>. And we'll ignore the, uh, 'idiosynracies'

in

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> NR2002 setup... > > > The Gran Turismo series does a great job of > > allowing someone to experience the thrill of driving high performance > > cars with a gamepad. Then again, so does Sega GT 2002, and Project > > Gotham Racing, Metropolis Street Racer, Rallisport Challenge, and F355 > > all arguably do an ever better job. > > No, I think GT3 stands head and shoulders above all of those other games

in > terms of the feel of what the car is doing. GT3 is the only game I haveever > played (with the exception of the GTR2002 mod) which felt like driving acar > in real life. And that includes Papy sims. GTR2002 is better than all Papy > sims for this feel. Neither GTR2002 nor GT3 have it yet, but GT3 is on one > side of the peak, and GTR2002 is on the other. > I don't think you've played F355 with a good wheel on the DC or at the arcade. The DC version is far more realistic than GT3. You can actually lock the brakes in F355, something that is impossible in GT3 (which suffers from permanent ABS which ruins it for me). I don't think I've spun a car more than 2-3 times in approximately 30 hours playing GT3 (raced dozens of cars with an emphasis on the racers - Panoz, Viper, etc.). The cars were far too stable, especially compared to GTR2002. In F355 I spun dozens of times in the first few hours. I was spoiled by the relaxed physics of GT. F355 in the arcade is even better. 3 pedals on the floor, gated shifter and even more realistic physics. I have not driven anything that has felt more realistic than F355 in the arcade (GPL, N2002, Nascar Racing Experience and GTR2002 mod included). -- Joe M.

"Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > F355 in the arcade is even better. 3 pedals on the floor, gated shifterand > even more realistic physics. I have not driven anything that has feltmore > realistic than F355 in the arcade (GPL, N2002, Nascar Racing Experienceand > GTR2002 mod included). You are right, I haven't played F355 in the arcade. I'll have to take a look around the local arcades sometime if it is that well recommended. Thanks. Nick.

>Getting back to my original point ;0) > F4 is far more sophisticated >software than GPL and arguably the best piece of simulation software ever >created. Hmmmmmmmmm. I'm quite sure GPL has a better tyre model <g> Remco

"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > >Getting back to my original point ;0) > F4 is far more sophisticated > >software than GPL and arguably the best piece of simulation software ever > >created. > > Hmmmmmmmmm. I'm quite sure GPL has a better tyre model <g> >

I'm pretty sure the flight dynamics of GPL are lacking, though ;-). And besides, neither of them accurately simulate golf, or jet skis, or sex, so they are both crap sims <g>. Nick (waiting for somebody to say GPL=SEX...).

I m sorry but I scimed through your post and did not read it and saw Nascar which this is nothing or a sim weather drivers test games and companies endose things dose not matter. Whay did M .Shumarker or whatever and ferrai F1 team piss them selfs laughing testing the F1 sims a fews years back for promotion because orf its realism or stupidity "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 03:38:28 GMT, "Jesse" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >as for the GTR MOD it would be rather easy to play graphic desigher for a > >day and play with some config files to create a few more cars which do > >nothing other than mock the game itself. > > I normally don't back away from arguing with idiots, but this time I > have to pass. I honestly don't even know where to begin, other than > to say that you should do some research into the arguments you're > making. At this point you're discussing things that you have no > experience with or knowledge of. > > As far as GTR2002 goes, it was designed by an accomplished > professional sports car race engineer using data from his actual shop. > It has been tested by drivers for the FIA GT series and other top > sports car drivers in order to make sure that the driving feel and > actual mechanics of the car and tires are as convincing as possible > given the limitations of PC hardware. > > Another simulation that is worth keeping an eye on is Nascar 2003 > which is being released by the developers of Indycar Racing, Grand > Prix Legends and the Nascar Racing Series. Always a few steps ahead > of other simulations, this year's version (the final in the series) is > based around data that has been gathered with the assistance of > Goodyear Tire and Jasper Motorsports. Early previews from the race > engineer involved in the project indicates that tires will heat and > wear in a way that is completely authentic and that setups can be > taken directly from a real stock car and applied to the sim. > > All of this said, we are still a full decade at best from having a > 100% authentic race car simulator. However, the above games, as well > as Grand Prix Legends, all reward using real life racing techniques > and car setup theory. The Gran Turismo series does a great job of > allowing someone to experience the thrill of driving high performance > cars with a gamepad. Then again, so does Sega GT 2002, and Project > Gotham Racing, Metropolis Street Racer, Rallisport Challenge, and F355 > all arguably do an ever better job. I don't see any one playing these > games and talking about optimal tire temperatures or traction circles, > then again I'm not sure that those basic concepts of driving a car > really apply in those particular game worlds. Generally it's hold > down the throttle trigger for as long as possible, hit the brake > trigger as late as possible (often while still holding the throttle > trigger), hit the throttle trigger as quickly as possible and hold it > down. In GT type game there's really no point in practicing things > like trail braking since raw lateral velocity is more important than > weight transfer when determining the optimal line through a corner. > > Anyway, do yourself a favor and get a decent PC wheel and copies of > the above mentioned simulations. > > Jason

"Jesse" wrote...

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> I m sorry but I scimed through your post and did not read > it and saw Nascar which this is nothing or a sim weather > drivers test games and companies endose things dose not > matter. > Whay did M .Shumarker or whatever and ferrai F1 team > piss them selfs laughing testing the F1 sims a fews years > back for promotion because orf its realism or stupidity

LOL... priceless. Jan. =---

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>"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > "Jesse" wrote... > > I m sorry but I scimed through your post and did not read > > it and saw Nascar which this is nothing or a sim weather > > drivers test games and companies endose things dose not > > matter. > > Whay did M .Shumarker or whatever and ferrai F1 team > > piss them selfs laughing testing the F1 sims a fews years > > back for promotion because orf its realism or stupidity > > LOL... priceless.

Yes thank god for Google archiving such posts. They can't be forgotten :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Fantastic annother critic who is personallay offended by bad text and Usernet Posts. Just think about the poor google bot now annother 2k in the MYSQL data base. Check back to the first post achived in google from 1969 and approve this to google achiving. Hey Im not on show you might be Dont forget your intellect . Please remember this is Usernet not some black tie affair of the immagination. This means that users use usernet and some users are illiterate dumb and just dribble on shit like me. Well would it have been usefull for me to agree with some dribble not worth reading. Dam I will tell you a great usernet story. O by the way maybee you like things over your head so everyone knows what they are doing but you therefore your grand repect for the google achives also maybee you should try using moderated groups where your kind veiw is highly repected as being responisble ,however come to think of it you could if you knew how to think before dribbling contact the ower of this group as every usernet group has a group owner be it moderated or not and complain about what a waste of space in the google achives jesse's posts are ,although it be irrealavent to usernet all together. Did you know you can create your own usernet group for free WOW wouldn't google be proud to host your group everything posted on lines and speel checked for the ulimate perfection in composer promising your love for crapping race sims is not just a hobby but a object that rules your life and reactions. Now... back to tthe usernet story I was about to tell. I speend alot of my time in a support group helping users solve problems with software installation and configuration, and there is 2 main people that do alot of good in this group. Now the software focas is on windows and linux me being the only windows user that seems to help users that have really lost it in the head and the other user praises linux and talks by it providing extra support when it is not needed and thinks he's great doing so double posting right. hey do a gogle serach and you will find wat groups i use and what I talk of. Any how this user seems to think its and ustandind usetr of everything and act really straight on. After 3 months of putting up with this user I was on Kazza andlooking for Doc books on strange usless sujects like DHTML and stuff I really never bothered to know about when in the seach list I see this users very distinct name NOW this name is distinct the chances of annother user using the same name are the same chances of the first user name I ever used this being "coldascold"(do google search for coldascold there is 1 other user that has every used this name online form my userstanding ! maybee not now as maybee you will be influenced as this other one user may have been infulenced. Any how I thought that could not be this user but thought It has to be so I searched on for the users files and low and behold this user is no ordinary linux user supporting windows users O No this user users a CRACKED version of VMVARE and is this means the user spends more time with windows than with linux as by static's 98% of linux users never use illeagal software as there is noneed to as Linux has ten times the programs and features of windows. WOW it amazing who you deal with in usernet and who really cares Main point this User I was talking about dose alot of good providing free support to users battling with thier windows software yet is a total looser having to use an emulator to use linux. KEY word AOL VIRUS ( I should have guessed.) Hey Maybe you guess why I didnt read the users post above Just dribbling on shit. read all this and your a real loser as it anit every going to do you any good. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4RMK9.7390$[email hidden]...

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> >"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > > "Jesse" wrote... > > > I m sorry but I scimed through your post and did not read > > > it and saw Nascar which this is nothing or a sim weather > > > drivers test games and companies endose things dose not > > > matter. > > > Whay did M .Shumarker or whatever and ferrai F1 team > > > piss them selfs laughing testing the F1 sims a fews years > > > back for promotion because orf its realism or stupidity > > > > LOL... priceless. > > > Yes thank god for Google archiving such posts. They can't be forgotten :) > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

"PCTAS.COM Corp." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > Fantastic annother critic who is personallay offended by bad text and > Usernet Posts. [snip] Please - go on :). We haven't had any quality trolls on 'usernet' since DKS got debunked and CleveB went back into the bunker to finish Grimoire. Kendt

"Kendt Eklund" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "PCTAS.COM Corp." <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<[email hidden]>...

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> > Fantastic annother critic who is personallay offended by bad text and > > Usernet Posts. > > [snip] > > Please - go on :). We haven't had any quality trolls on 'usernet' > since DKS got debunked and CleveB went back into the bunker to finish > Grimoire. > > Kendt

No! Not both mentioned in the same post. Could be one of the signs of the end times. Elrikk PS. When is Grimoire coming out anyway ? ;o)