So what's so great about GPL anyway ?

As a long time sim fan I can remember playing the GPL demo of the Monza track, I think I had a Voodoo 2 then and a Thrustmaster Wheel. Man it was great, like a lot of people I spent hours going round Monza trying to reduce my lap times. When the game came out it was fantastic and kept me up burning the midnight oil on many nights. Then of course we had VROC in all its formats and that was great too. Loads of add on tracks, the list was never ending. Anyway, since then I've played F1 2001, F2002 (the GT mod is great), F1RC, TIA, all of the Papy Nascars Nascar Heat, Viper Racing plus others too numerous to mention. In that period I went from Voodoo 2 to Voodoo 3 and then Voodoo 5 ( what happened to 4 ?) Radeon 8500 and now a Radeon 9700 Pro. Recently a new set of leaked drivers was found to have FSAA support for 16 bit so I thought why not give GPL a go ? It was still lurking on my hard drive (even though I upgraded to XP last year) and so I di dand guess what. It's still the 'kin greatest, nothing else has ever matched the adrenaline pumping feeling flying around Monza or Watkins Glen. Maybe it's me but you can keep all of the newer stuff, GPL is an immense achievement and nothing, repeat nothing, has matched it yet. So why ? It doesn't have the greates graphics (although on a 9700 at 1024 x 764 FSAA and 16 X aniso it looks pretty good). Do you know what ? I don't care why but if I was a sim programmer I would because they need to understand it and emulate it so we can have more sims which we can still enjoy 4 years from now !!!!!!! By the way I am 50 so I expect that makes me a BOF but I just don't care.

On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:01:55 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >As a long time sim fan I can remember playing the GPL demo of the >Monza track, I think I had a Voodoo 2 then and a Thrustmaster Wheel. >Man it was great, like a lot of people I spent hours going round Monza >trying to reduce my lap times. [snip GPL lovin'] I've asked myself the same question in your header numerous times, but from a different perspective... I played the demo a lot when it came out, and bought the full version on the day it was released. I messed around with it for a few weeks, tired of it, and basically quit playing. The newsgroup gushed on and on about it. I must be missing something. I kept going back, and kept coming to the same conclusion. I just couldn't get into it. I read about the totally realistic physics while watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. I must've tried coming back to the game half a dozen times, forcing myself to play it, trying it online, reading the posts, messing with setups... Low Rider, High Rider, cheatin' Rail Rider, all to no avail. I actually felt I had to be missing some key aspect. It was like the movie everyone loves, but you dislike. What was I missing? What was the plot point that brought it all together that I wasn't seeing (was the evil Darth Enzo actually Colin Chapmans father?!?)? I never found out, and I still don't get it. I avoided the flame wars about it, but occasionally piped in with some "not too critical" comment that'd get me branded a fool for not knowing old GP car physics, despite knowing that real race clips from the era on Speedvision looked nothing like what I was seeing on my computer screen. I'm not a super stickler for perfect physics either, I really just care if a game is fun, and couldn't have fun with GPL. To this day, I feel like I missed out on something special because everyone holds GPL in such high regard and I never "got" it.

FWIW: I owned a Voodoo 4 shortly after it came out. It was a Voodoo5 with exactly half the performance. It handled the graphics very well without the huge price of a VD5. I had the card for quite some time and then gave it to a friend to upgrade their machine. A very nice card. Wayne Templin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> As a long time sim fan I can remember playing the GPL demo of the > Monza track, I think I had a Voodoo 2 then and a Thrustmaster Wheel. > Man it was great, like a lot of people I spent hours going round Monza > trying to reduce my lap times. When the game came out it was fantastic > and kept me up burning the midnight oil on many nights. Then of course > we had VROC in all its formats and that was great too. Loads of add on > tracks, the list was never ending. Anyway, since then I've played F1 > 2001, F2002 (the GT mod is great), F1RC, TIA, all of the Papy Nascars > Nascar Heat, Viper Racing plus others too numerous to mention. In that > period I went from Voodoo 2 to Voodoo 3 and then Voodoo 5 ( what > happened to 4 ?) Radeon 8500 and now a Radeon 9700 Pro. Recently a new > set of leaked drivers was found to have FSAA support for 16 bit so I > thought why not give GPL a go ? It was still lurking on my hard drive > (even though I upgraded to XP last year) and so I di dand guess what. > It's still the 'kin greatest, nothing else has ever matched the > adrenaline pumping feeling flying around Monza or Watkins Glen. Maybe > it's me but you can keep all of the newer stuff, GPL is an immense > achievement and nothing, repeat nothing, has matched it yet. So why ? > It doesn't have the greates graphics (although on a 9700 at 1024 x 764 > FSAA and 16 X aniso it looks pretty good). > > Do you know what ? I don't care why but if I was a sim programmer I > would because they need to understand it and emulate it so we can have > more sims which we can still enjoy 4 years from now !!!!!!! > > By the way I am 50 so I expect that makes me a BOF but I just don't > care.

"Tim O" <[email hidden]> ha scritto nel messaggio news:[email hidden]... [cut] > I read about the totally realistic physics while > watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off > lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. So which other (more realistic) sim have you got?

[cut] So which other (more realistic) sim have you got?

I think it boils down to, different people like different things. If someone likes something and gets a lot of enjoyment out of it, then great, I'm happy for them. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not. I personally don't like Nascar Racing, but I know a lot of other people do. Also, I think it's wrong to compare GPL to a modern day F1 sim except from a technical/programming perspective. They are totally uncomparable, different era's, different technology and a completely different approach to racing technique. I enjoy both GPL and F1 2002 and for pure fun factor I don't prefer one to the other. However, if you start looking at the technical/programming issues, that's where I admire GPL a lot. Considering the game is getting on for five years old, it has got a very good physics model, superb force feedback effects, has better online racing than most modern games. At the end of the day though, we're all here to just have some fun. I doesn't matter what game you play as long as you enjoy yourself. Regards Russell "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:01:55 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: > > >As a long time sim fan I can remember playing the GPL demo of the > >Monza track, I think I had a Voodoo 2 then and a Thrustmaster Wheel. > >Man it was great, like a lot of people I spent hours going round Monza > >trying to reduce my lap times. > > [snip GPL lovin'] > > I've asked myself the same question in your header numerous times, but > from a different perspective... > I played the demo a lot when it came out, and bought the full version > on the day it was released. I messed around with it for a few weeks, > tired of it, and basically quit playing. > The newsgroup gushed on and on about it. I must be missing something. > I kept going back, and kept coming to the same conclusion. I just > couldn't get into it. I read about the totally realistic physics while > watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off > lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. > > I must've tried coming back to the game half a dozen times, forcing > myself to play it, trying it online, reading the posts, messing with > setups... Low Rider, High Rider, cheatin' Rail Rider, all to no avail. > I actually felt I had to be missing some key aspect. It was like the > movie everyone loves, but you dislike. What was I missing? What was > the plot point that brought it all together that I wasn't seeing (was > the evil Darth Enzo actually Colin Chapmans father?!?)? > > I never found out, and I still don't get it. I avoided the flame wars > about it, but occasionally piped in with some "not too critical" > comment that'd get me branded a fool for not knowing old GP car > physics, despite knowing that real race clips from the era on > Speedvision looked nothing like what I was seeing on my computer > screen. I'm not a super stickler for perfect physics either, I really > just care if a game is fun, and couldn't have fun with GPL. > To this day, I feel like I missed out on something special because > everyone holds GPL in such high regard and I never "got" it. >

I remember feeling ambivalent about GPL too, when it first came out. It just felt so different from anything that had come before it, and yes, different than I would've expected a real "simulated" car to feel. My first thought after trying the Lotus was that if someone in real life sent me out in something that evil-handling, I'd go straight back to the pits and punch 'em in the face. But the more I drove it, the more I got it, until finally, it clicked. Heck, even Dave Kaemmer was quoted somewhere on the net talking about the need to develop "new neural pathways" or something like that to really "get" GPL and it's brethren. I finally came to regard GPL as having really great rigid-body physics with really odd tires. But even given its tire (and other) idiosyncracies, it was still by far the best driving sim out there for communicating where the limit of grip was to the driver. That, I think, is what makes it so rewarding. The thing that makes fast driving exciting is risk, and fear of the disaster waiting if you go over the limit. The thing that makes it rewarding is feeling like you put the car right on that limit and still brought it back. A lot of sims let you drive fast, but none before (or since, it might be argued) did as good a job of letting you know when you were approaching the "edge of disaster" - of communicating exactly what was going on at the contact patches. That's what makes the GPL driving experience dramatic, exciting and rewarding. GPL had lots else going for it; a romantic period with legendary tracks and drivers, an obvious passion on the part of its developers, great multiplayer, etc., but the quality of the driving experience is what really differentiated it for me, originally. The quality of the community that's sprung up around it and the great enhancements that have followed only continue to widen the gap to any other sim out there for me, even though the physics have been bettered since. There's a lot of craft on evidence in sims these days, but to my mind, GPL is still the only one that approaches art. SB "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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> I've asked myself the same question in your header numerous times, but > from a different perspective... > I played the demo a lot when it came out, and bought the full version > on the day it was released. I messed around with it for a few weeks, > tired of it, and basically quit playing. > The newsgroup gushed on and on about it. I must be missing something. > I kept going back, and kept coming to the same conclusion. I just > couldn't get into it. I read about the totally realistic physics while > watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off > lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. > > I must've tried coming back to the game half a dozen times, forcing > myself to play it, trying it online, reading the posts, messing with > setups... Low Rider, High Rider, cheatin' Rail Rider, all to no avail. > I actually felt I had to be missing some key aspect. It was like the > movie everyone loves, but you dislike. What was I missing? What was > the plot point that brought it all together that I wasn't seeing (was > the evil Darth Enzo actually Colin Chapmans father?!?)? > > I never found out, and I still don't get it. I avoided the flame wars > about it, but occasionally piped in with some "not too critical" > comment that'd get me branded a fool for not knowing old GP car > physics, despite knowing that real race clips from the era on > Speedvision looked nothing like what I was seeing on my computer > screen. I'm not a super stickler for perfect physics either, I really > just care if a game is fun, and couldn't have fun with GPL. > To this day, I feel like I missed out on something special because > everyone holds GPL in such high regard and I never "got" it. >

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim O <[email hidden]> writes: >To this day, I feel like I missed out on something special because >everyone holds GPL in such high regard and I never "got" it. Don't worry about it. If you don't get it, there's nothing anyone can say to HELP you like it. Just enjoy the games you *do* get...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:-0.381 N2002 Rank:+17.59 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 23:46:41 GMT, "McF" <[email hidden]> wrote: >So which other (more realistic) sim have you got? Did I say I found other sims more realistic, or just that GPL wasn't as realistic as many claimed? I think it was the latter. Anyway, to answer your question. Viper Racing, SODA, any of the Papy NASCAR Racing titles since 4, and perhaps GTR2002. Live For Speed also appears to be on the right track, but it's suffering horribly from hacked cars that bend its physics to the point where they are as far out as the catapulted, or 30 barrel rolls in succession cars of GPL. Ask me what racing games I found more FUN, and the list will be much longer.

What he said... -- don ------------------------------------- BAPOM Alternative Program Covers for GPL http://www.trilon.com/bapom/ "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <SNIP> > The quality of the community that's sprung up around it and the great > enhancements that have followed only continue to widen the gap to any other > sim out there for me, even though the physics have been bettered since. > There's a lot of craft on evidence in sims these days, but to my mind, GPL > is still the only one that approaches art. > > SB

On 26 Jan 2003 01:59:57 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >Don't worry about it. If you don't get it, there's nothing anyone can say to >HELP you like it. Just enjoy the games you *do* get...<g> Yea. It bugged me because I'm pretty much a motorcycle and car fanatic, I love stuff that models physics (even stuff like that little Bridge Builder simulation), and I'm basically in line with all the other opinions on RAS. Just that one thing I differ with, but it's a biggie! It's like saying you don't like pizza or something. You're automatically dismissed as a whacko. LOL.

>"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote > Heck, even Dave Kaemmer was quoted somewhere on the net talking > about the need to develop "new neural pathways" or something like that to > really "get" GPL and it's brethren. I finally came to regard GPL ashaving > really great rigid-body physics with really odd tires. But even given its > tire (and other) idiosyncracies, it was still by far the best driving sim > out there for communicating where the limit of grip was to the driver. I think that's the best way to not only approach GPL, but racing simulations in general. Yes, they are trying to be the most realistic possible. No, they are not realistic, whatever the game producers write at the back of their box. So there, we must accept those cars "as they are" in their virtual world, and that virtual world "as it is" with their physics and different dimensions. It's still racing, even if it's not slightly perfect. It still makes us push those cars to the limit, and OH! how enjoyable that limit is in GPL. Heck, even in something like GP4, it can be interesting. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Tim O

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> Yea. It bugged me because I'm pretty much a motorcycle and car > fanatic, I love stuff that models physics (even stuff like that little > Bridge Builder simulation), and I'm basically in line with all the > other opinions on RAS. > Just that one thing I differ with, but it's a biggie! It's like saying > you don't like pizza or something. You're automatically dismissed as a > whacko. LOL. > >

Well....name ONE other person who doesn't like GPL who ISN't a WACKO!!! dave henrie

Tim O Well....name ONE other person who doesn't like GPL who ISN't a WACKO!!! dave henrie

On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 03:46:01 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > Well....name ONE other person who doesn't like GPL who ISN't a WACKO!!! Well, I'll take that as a compliment, but I think we're treading on thin ice here, Dave. lol

"Tim O" <[email hidden]> ha scritto nel messaggio news:[email hidden]... > On 26 Jan 2003 01:59:57 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:... > It's like saying > you don't like pizza or something. You're automatically dismissed as a > whacko. LOL. You don't like pizza???!! ;-))

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Tim O > > Yea. It bugged me because I'm pretty much a motorcycle and car > > fanatic, I love stuff that models physics (even stuff like that little > > Bridge Builder simulation), and I'm basically in line with all the > > other opinions on RAS. > > Just that one thing I differ with, but it's a biggie! It's like saying > > you don't like pizza or something. You're automatically dismissed as a > > whacko. LOL. > > > Well....name ONE other person who doesn't like GPL who ISN't a WACKO!!! > dave henrie >

I absolutely despise open-wheel racing, and even *I* like GPL. I guess it's because I'm so old. I remember watching clips from those races on Wide World Of Sports when I was a kid.

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> >> Well....name ONE other person who doesn't like GPL who ISN't a >> WACKO!!! > > Well, I'll take that as a compliment, but I think we're treading on > thin ice here, Dave. lol >

;) dh

<[email hidden]> wrote... > <snip> > It doesn't have the greates graphics (although on a > 9700 at 1024 x 764 FSAA and 16 X aniso it looks > pretty good). Are you using the GPLEA cars, 16-bit track updates and the latest crop of add-on tracks yet? Also, if you got the processor horsepower to match that Radeon, crank up that resolution to 1600x1200 at the very least. Jan. =---

"ymenard" wrote...

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> <snip> > I think that's the best way to not only approach GPL, > but racing simulations in general. Yes, they are > trying to be the most realistic possible. No, they > are not realistic, whatever the game producers write > at the back of their box. > > So there, we must accept those cars "as they are" in > their virtual world, and that virtual world "as it is" > with their physics and different dimensions.

I don't know Francois, that's perilously close to actively exploiting shortcomings in the model to exceed what is physically possible in reality, a.k.a. hotlapping. I think it does require some effort on the part of the driver to maintain proper technique and hence "complete" the simulation. > It's still racing, even if it's not slightly perfect. > It still makes us push those cars to the limit, And ourselves... it's not just the cars. > and OH! how enjoyable that limit is in GPL. Heck, even > in something like GP4, it can be interesting. Interesting as an excercise of one's "sim perception", perhaps. <g> Jan. =---

Tim O wrote: > [snip GPL lovin'] > I kept going back, and kept coming to the same conclusion. I just > couldn't get into it. I read about the totally realistic physics while > watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off > lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. Ah, but that's not quite a good measure. These guys were, at the time, *actually in their cars*, risking their very lives in most corners. No wonder they rarely performed slides like these, you know. (We, unlike them, can go up 'n over the limit as many times as we like, producing slides like these as many as we'd want.) There's always next race, and you'd want to live another day to participate again. > just care if a game is fun, and couldn't have fun with GPL. > To this day, I feel like I missed out on something special because > everyone holds GPL in such high regard and I never "got" it. Well, let me put it this way. I've been testing F1 CS 2000 for the Mac and after a few weeks or so went back to slide 'round Spa in GPL. It felt so much better - more difficult to control, but more 'controllability feel' built-in. It kinda felt like 'being set free', feeling far more aware of the car, and feeling more like 'being there'. GPL feels like it gives way more feedback of the virtual car to the driver. F1CS feels 'crude' in comparison (in realism terms, it *is* kinda crude too). GPL also feels more 'precise', and it also feels more 'pure'. Less computerised, more driving impression, more spatial awareness. "Pure" is a pretty good word to describe GPL in comparison to other racing sims. It just seems to fit this one pretty well. Regards, Ruud

"John Simmons" wrote > ....I guess it's because I'm so old. I remember watching clips fromthose > races on Wide World Of Sports when I was a kid. DOH! I remember watching them my senior year of high school. -- Slot Tweaks & Reviews www.slottweak.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003

"Tim O" wrote > ..............I read about the totally realistic physics while > watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off > lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. You have to remember that I (or probably any one of us) could grab the nose of one of these cars and lift the front wheels off the ground. Flying 30 feet into the air and doing a few flips did happen on occasion. Certainly not as much as it happens in the game, but that's because the real drivers were a bit more careful. Also, 4 wheel drifts were very much a part of driving these things. I think I remember some mention of it in the manual, if not, it's certainly covered in many good books about the cars of that era. When I first got GPL, I tried the F3 cars. I couldn't drive them at all. I switched to F1 where the handling was much better as long as you take it easy on the gas. After a few months of that, I went back to F3 and really enjoyed it. The cars are slippery and you have to keep the speed up in the corners because you don't have the power to catch up. I found it less forgiving. With all the new games out and a shortage of time, I ended up running GPL only a couple times a month for the last year or so. But now things are different. I've found the FV class and a great online league. The thing is, GPL is a totally different game now than it was when it came out. First, the new cars are gorgeous and the new tracks and updated graphics for the original ones are spectacular. With the engine swapper and the new classes, anyone can drive the cars. The FG class is F3 engines with F1 chassis. A little boring driving Spa by yourself, but good online racing. FV is F3 engines with the F2 chassis (my favorite and one you might like, too, Tim). A great combination for online racing. For those who want a bit more speed, FD offers F2 engines with F1 chassis. I now find myself enjoying racing in a great looking, hi-res cockpit looking at spectacular scenery, and all at 1600x1200 with 3xFSAA. Unfortunately, I also enjoy watching the photo-realistic rendering of the other guys' engine - in front of me :-) The physics model is quite convincing and the force feedback is good enough for me to feel tire grip and wheel loading while cresting hills. Setups, which have often been a problem for some people, can even be handled pretty well with some new software. Even the AI drivers can be tamed. I enjoy NR2002, F1 2002, the LFS demo and a few other games, but I would say that the "New" GPL is as complete as any of these and offers more driving options than any of them. I certainly wouldn't want to change your mind about what GPL was for you, Tim. Your opinion is just as right as anyone else's and I, myself, have never been one to follow the crowd. But, if you try the "New" GPL, you might find an enjoyable game. I can honestly say that if it wasn't for the many new upgrades, I would have tired of GPL a while ago. -- Slot Tweaks & Reviews www.slottweak.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003

"GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b1408p$v4qav$[email hidden]... > Also, 4 wheel drifts were very much a part of > driving these things. I think I remember some mention of it in the manual, The title? ;-) Malc.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:11:22 -0500, "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Tim O" wrote >> ..............I read about the totally realistic physics while >> watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off >> lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. > >You have to remember that I (or probably any one of us) could grab the nose >of one of these cars and lift the front wheels off the ground. Flying 30 >feet into the air and doing a few flips did happen on occasion. Certainly >not as much as it happens in the game, but that's because the real drivers >were a bit more careful. Also, 4 wheel drifts were very much a part of >driving these things. I think I remember some mention of it in the manual, >if not, it's certainly covered in many good books about the cars of that >era. > >When I first got GPL, I tried the F3 cars. I couldn't drive them at all. I >switched to F1 where the handling was much better as long as you take it >easy on the gas. After a few months of that, I went back to F3 and really >enjoyed it. The cars are slippery and you have to keep the speed up in the >corners because you don't have the power to catch up. I found it less >forgiving. With all the new games out and a shortage of time, I ended up >running GPL only a couple times a month for the last year or so. But now >things are different. >I've found the FV class and a great online league. The thing is, GPL is a >totally different game now than it was when it came out. First, the new cars >are gorgeous and the new tracks and updated graphics for the original ones >are spectacular. With the engine swapper and the new classes, anyone can >drive the cars. The FG class is F3 engines with F1 chassis. A little boring >driving Spa by yourself, but good online racing. FV is F3 engines with the >F2 chassis (my favorite and one you might like, too, Tim). A great >combination for online racing. For those who want a bit more speed, FD >offers F2 engines with F1 chassis. I now find myself enjoying racing in a >great looking, hi-res cockpit looking at spectacular scenery, and all at >1600x1200 with 3xFSAA. Unfortunately, I also enjoy watching the >photo-realistic rendering of the other guys' engine - in front of me :-) >The physics model is quite convincing and the force feedback is good enough >for me to feel tire grip and wheel loading while cresting hills. Setups, >which have often been a problem for some people, can even be handled pretty >well with some new software. Even the AI drivers can be tamed. >I enjoy NR2002, F1 2002, the LFS demo and a few other games, but I would say >that the "New" GPL is as complete as any of these and offers more driving >options than any of them. I certainly wouldn't want to change your mind >about what GPL was for you, Tim. Your opinion is just as right as anyone >else's and I, myself, have never been one to follow the crowd. But, if you >try the "New" GPL, you might find an enjoyable game. I can honestly say that >if it wasn't for the many new upgrades, I would have tired of GPL a while >ago.

Right on. Every time I "slow down" in my appreciation of GPL, another car or interesting track comes out, and it's excitement all over again. The new cars are stunning, and this week I answered the statements of many posters that my video was too slow and installed a ATI 9500 Pro, and WOW! Total smoothness with everything on full, richer colors, and everything so pretty I can hardly stand it! Wheeee! There may be faster cards, but I only run GPL, and I can't imagine I need anything more. Sam

I think I have 2 books on it. One may have been called Four Wheel Drift or something like that (or maybe that's just what I called it). It's funny, I just found my GPL box with the game in it (so I could reinstall it over the weekend) and the manual wasn't in it. I think it's with the books. I may have loaned one of them out to a buddy (who hasn't returned it) but the other should still be around. Actually, if I recall, I think there's some mention of them in the manual itself. If you're serious, Malc, I can try to find them. Also, if you start a new topic asking for recommended reading, I'm sure others on here will have lots of good suggestions. I think one of the books has a nice section on Enzo Ferrari. -- Slot Tweaks & Reviews www.slottweak.com "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UJfZ9.4014$9u5.264466@wards... > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:b1408p$v4qav$[email hidden]... > > > Also, 4 wheel drifts were very much a part of > > driving these things. I think I remember some mention of it in the manual, > > > The title? ;-) > > Malc. > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003

"GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b1499v$vcu73$[email hidden]... > I think I have 2 books on it. One may have been called Four Wheel Drift or > something like that (or maybe that's just what I called it). It's funny, I > just found my GPL box with the game in it (so I could reinstall it overthe > weekend) and the manual wasn't in it. I think it's with the books. I may > have loaned one of them out to a buddy (who hasn't returned it) but the > other should still be around. > Actually, if I recall, I think there's some mention of them in the manual > itself. If you're serious, Malc, I can try to find them. Also, if youstart > a new topic asking for recommended reading, I'm sure others on here will > have lots of good suggestions. I think one of the books has a nicesection > on Enzo Ferrari. Thanks for the suggestion but I was just trying to jog your memory ;-) I still have Steve Smith's book that came with gpl & it's been read so many times the first 20 or so pages are loose ;-) I own NR2002 too, and although I don't use it much, I found the manual with that was an excellent read too. F12002's one however... ;-) Malc.

"Malc" wrote... > <snip> > I own NR2002 too, and although I don't use it much, I > found the manual with that was an excellent read too. You must be thinking N4, because the manual that came with (admittently, the UK version) of NR2002 was F1 2k2 standard, i.e. just basic game functions explained. Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lfkZ9.12617$[email hidden]... > "Malc" wrote... > > <snip> > > I own NR2002 too, and although I don't use it much, I > > found the manual with that was an excellent read too. > > You must be thinking N4, because the manual that came with (admittently,the > UK version) of NR2002 was F1 2k2 standard, i.e. just basic game functions > explained. Nope, I don't own N4. It's a little 6"x4" booklet and although it doesn't go into as much detail as gpl's, it's still far more comprehensive a guide than I've seen in any other title (bar gpl). Papy do this very well imo. The best book though was the one that came with Elite for the BBC. Still got it somewhere but I can't remember what it was called. Really set the scene for the game ;-) Malc.

"Malc" > The best book though was the one that came with Elite for the BBC. > Still got it somewhere but I can't remember what it was called. Really > set the scene for the game ;-) > > Malc. > Shameless off topic admission: I was Elite on the C-64 AND the Amiga...only got about 1/2way there on the PC. (not because of difficulty but Probably because of Wing Commander and Ultima.) dave henrie

"Tim O", you are my saviour. My personal Jesus Christ. I thought I was mad. I thought I was alone. Now I know there are others. Others like me who never really "got" GPL. I'm tempted to elaborate but TIM O you've already said everything for me. Perhaps GPL 2 will do "it" for me :) massivechicken "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:01:55 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: > > >As a long time sim fan I can remember playing the GPL demo of the > >Monza track, I think I had a Voodoo 2 then and a Thrustmaster Wheel. > >Man it was great, like a lot of people I spent hours going round Monza > >trying to reduce my lap times. > > [snip GPL lovin'] > > I've asked myself the same question in your header numerous times, but > from a different perspective... > I played the demo a lot when it came out, and bought the full version > on the day it was released. I messed around with it for a few weeks, > tired of it, and basically quit playing. > The newsgroup gushed on and on about it. I must be missing something. > I kept going back, and kept coming to the same conclusion. I just > couldn't get into it. I read about the totally realistic physics while > watching replays of cars flying 200 feet in the air and pulling off > lurid full corner slides that real GP cars of the era never performed. > > I must've tried coming back to the game half a dozen times, forcing > myself to play it, trying it online, reading the posts, messing with > setups... Low Rider, High Rider, cheatin' Rail Rider, all to no avail. > I actually felt I had to be missing some key aspect. It was like the > movie everyone loves, but you dislike. What was I missing? What was > the plot point that brought it all together that I wasn't seeing (was > the evil Darth Enzo actually Colin Chapmans father?!?)? > > I never found out, and I still don't get it. I avoided the flame wars > about it, but occasionally piped in with some "not too critical" > comment that'd get me branded a fool for not knowing old GP car > physics, despite knowing that real race clips from the era on > Speedvision looked nothing like what I was seeing on my computer > screen. I'm not a super stickler for perfect physics either, I really > just care if a game is fun, and couldn't have fun with GPL. > To this day, I feel like I missed out on something special because > everyone holds GPL in such high regard and I never "got" it. >

Gene Penman wrote: > > "Tim O", you are my saviour. My personal Jesus Christ. I thought I was mad. > I thought I was alone. Now I know there are others. Others like me who never > really "got" GPL. I'm tempted to elaborate but TIM O you've already said > everything for me. Perhaps GPL 2 will do "it" for me :) You mean you were crap at it?

Mr Gerry Smartarse Aitken, go ahead and ask anyone in the australian sim racing group (www.asrg.org) just how 'crap' a sim racer I am. It's got nothing to do with it. The fact is that GPL never did it for me. I'm not saying I didn't like it - I just don't have the same godlike view of it that you guys have. Can't you respect my point of view, or is that beyond you? massivechicken "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Gene Penman wrote: > > > > "Tim O", you are my saviour. My personal Jesus Christ. I thought I wasmad. > > I thought I was alone. Now I know there are others. Others like me whonever > > really "got" GPL. I'm tempted to elaborate but TIM O you've already said > > everything for me. Perhaps GPL 2 will do "it" for me :) > > You mean you were crap at it?

I remember trying the demo before GPL was released and thinking it was gonna be a crap sim. In fact, I didn't even buy it until a couple of months after it became available, and I have never once regretted spending the money. Like any other PC game, it simply isn't for everyone. And despite my aversion to open-wheel racing, I'd most definitely spend the money on a "GPL2". In article <07rZ9.796$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Mr Gerry Smartarse Aitken, go ahead and ask anyone in the australian sim > racing group (www.asrg.org) just how 'crap' a sim racer I am. It's got > nothing to do with it. The fact is that GPL never did it for me. I'm not > saying I didn't like it - I just don't have the same godlike view of it that > you guys have. Can't you respect my point of view, or is that beyond you? > > massivechicken > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Gene Penman wrote: > > > > > > "Tim O", you are my saviour. My personal Jesus Christ. I thought I was > mad. > > > I thought I was alone. Now I know there are others. Others like me who > never > > > really "got" GPL. I'm tempted to elaborate but TIM O you've already said > > > everything for me. Perhaps GPL 2 will do "it" for me :) > > > > You mean you were crap at it? > > >

Thanks John :) I've never regretted buying GPL either. Roll on GPL2!! "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I remember trying the demo before GPL was released and thinking it > was gonna be a crap sim. In fact, I didn't even buy it until a > couple of months after it became available, and I have never once > regretted spending the money. > > Like any other PC game, it simply isn't for everyone. > > And despite my aversion to open-wheel racing, I'd most definitely > spend the money on a "GPL2". > > > In article <07rZ9.796$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Mr Gerry Smartarse Aitken, go ahead and ask anyone in the australian sim > > racing group (www.asrg.org) just how 'crap' a sim racer I am. It's got > > nothing to do with it. The fact is that GPL never did it for me. I'm not > > saying I didn't like it - I just don't have the same godlike view of it

that > > you guys have. Can't you respect my point of view, or is that beyondyou?

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> > > > massivechicken > > > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Gene Penman wrote: > > > > > > > > "Tim O", you are my saviour. My personal Jesus Christ. I thought I

was > > mad. > > > > I thought I was alone. Now I know there are others. Others like mewho > > never > > > > really "got" GPL. I'm tempted to elaborate but TIM O you've alreadysaid > > > > everything for me. Perhaps GPL 2 will do "it" for me :) > > > > > > You mean you were crap at it? > > > > > >

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:07:19 +1100, "Gene Penman" <[email hidden]> wrote: >"Tim O", you are my saviour. My personal Jesus Christ. I thought I was mad. >I thought I was alone. Now I know there are others. Others like me who never >really "got" GPL. I'm tempted to elaborate but TIM O you've already said >everything for me. Perhaps GPL 2 will do "it" for me :) Ya know, even though I wound up preferring more modern era sims over GPL, I would buy GPL 2 on the day of it's release also. I'd have to give it a chance, even though I'd prefer to see Papy do a rally sim, or at least another realistic offroad sim like SODA. (CORR?) BTW, Gerry mentioned the difficulty of GPL being what caused people not to like it (at least that's how I interpret "you were crap at it"), but I loved SODA, which was also very difficult. It bums me out that it came out right at the dawn of 3D, and only got Rendition acceleration. Direct 3D support would have made this one timeless for me, just like GPL is for many here.

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Malc" > > The best book though was the one that came with Elite for the BBC. > > Still got it somewhere but I can't remember what it was called. Really > > set the scene for the game ;-) > > > > Malc. > > > Shameless off topic admission: I was Elite on the C-64 AND the > Amiga...only got about 1/2way there on the PC. (not because of difficulty > but Probably because of Wing Commander and Ultima.) > dave henrie

I was Elite on the BBC, and the PC version (74Kb!) but I never got all that far with Frontier & First Encounters. Still got them though. I moved onto I'76 after that. It's not the genre, it's the quality of the game ;-) Malc.

massivechicken wrote:

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> > Mr Gerry Smartarse Aitken, go ahead and ask anyone in the australian sim > racing group (www.asrg.org) just how 'crap' a sim racer I am. It's got > nothing to do with it. The fact is that GPL never did it for me. I'm not > saying I didn't like it - I just don't have the same godlike view of it that > you guys have. Can't you respect my point of view, or is that beyond you? > > massivechicken

Re: GPL So how slow were you then? Just curious. Gerry

I'm falling in to the age old trap here of arguing with an idiot - they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience... but I'll keep going out of pure fascination alone. I only ever really got 'not slow' at monza (my PB was sub 1:30), the other tracks I wasn't bad but I didn't stick with GPL for more than 6 months. Nurburgring was an awesome track too. Gerry, I liked GPL. I showed it off to my friends. I played it a lot. But it didn't last 6 years like it has with you guys. Yes, I've got ALL the addons. Yes, I've played on VROC. Yes, I've raced in a GPL league. I had a recent bout of 3 months of GPL as I once again tried to force myself to like it. The difference is I lost interest very quickly. I've spent a hell of a lot more time on GTR2002 and N4/2002, purely because I think they are more realistic. I wish I was like you with your GPL fascination but I'm not, and no amount of arguing the toss is going to change mine, Tim-O's and no doubt countless others who don't regularly drive GPL. Why don't I drive it? Because it doesn't 'feel' right to me. It's a hell of a lot of fun, but I just can't imagine any real car EVER handling like a GPL car. Papy have gotten better and better, so I look forward to GPL2 if that eventuates. I look forward to your level headed, thoughtful, respectful and intelligent reply. lol. massivechicken "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > massivechicken wrote: > > > > Mr Gerry Smartarse Aitken, go ahead and ask anyone in the australian sim > > racing group (www.asrg.org) just how 'crap' a sim racer I am. It's got > > nothing to do with it. The fact is that GPL never did it for me. I'm not > > saying I didn't like it - I just don't have the same godlike view of itthat > > you guys have. Can't you respect my point of view, or is that beyondyou?

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> > > > massivechicken > > Re: GPL > > So how slow were you then? > > Just curious. > > Gerry

"Gene Penman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b16u4c$[email hidden]... > Why don't I drive it? Because it doesn't 'feel' right to me. It's a hellof > a lot of fun, but I just can't imagine any real car EVER handling like aGPL > car. Papy have gotten better and better, so I look forward to GPL2 if that > eventuates. Not quite a car, but a single-engine ProKart in the rain handles scarily like a cross between the Brabham and the Ferrari in the dry...

heh yeah that's the feeling I'm talking about :) massivechicken "Nathaniel Porter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b179s9$8th$[email hidden]...

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> > "Gene Penman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:b16u4c$[email hidden]... > > Why don't I drive it? Because it doesn't 'feel' right to me. It's a hell > of > > a lot of fun, but I just can't imagine any real car EVER handling like a > GPL > > car. Papy have gotten better and better, so I look forward to GPL2 if

that > > eventuates. > > Not quite a car, but a single-engine ProKart in the rain handles scarily > like a cross between the Brabham and the Ferrari in the dry... > >

"Gene Penman" wrote... > <snip> > Why don't I drive it? Because it doesn't 'feel' right > to me. It's a hell of a lot of fun, but I just can't > imagine any real car EVER handling like a GPL car. You can't even compare the sensations of driving a real car and a simulated car. The important thing (for any sim) is there's consistent relation between the sensation the sim gives to the driver and what the on-screen car does. Driving a virtual car is as much about pre-empting it as a real one. That said, there is a lot of questionable stuff going on in GPL... the way the tyres work, the differential (especially when running an open diff... compare to LFS) and it's response to sudden upsets like kerbs, no doubt about it. Another thing about GPL is really whacko setups can be as fast or even faster than "proper" ones. Whether or not these settings are feasible in RL and they never occurred to the guys at the time or whether, as is my opinion, the reason they work is the fact the parts in question are unbreakable in the sim, they do allow for some weird sensations and for some pretty far out stuff to be pulled off in the driving department. Like I said before in this thread, it takes a real effort on the part of the driver to complete the illusion in GPL. Perhaps most of us are just lucky we did this without thinking about it. Jan. =---

Gene <SNIP> >Why don't I drive it? Because it doesn't 'feel' right to me. It's a hell of > a lot of fun, but I just can't imagine any real car EVER handling like a GPL > car. Papy have gotten better and better, so I look forward to GPL2 if that > eventuates. There are many people with a lot of single seater experience who say GPL is very realistic as far as car handling goes. Have you any real world knowledge to base your conclusion on? Also, did you use FFB with GPL? > I look forward to your level headed, thoughtful, respectful and intelligent > reply. lol. Will that do? :) Very respectfully yours Gerry

Hey Gerry, The only single seaters I raced was go karts...still do as a hobby, but I'm not in competition anymore like 5 years ago! I also club raced a 998 mini cooper, in autocrosses and track days (Phillip Island, Winton etc). I crack out the 300ZX on Phillip Island once a year for some time trial action. GPL does indeed feel real in general, but there are certain things that don't feel right and put me off. What I'm trying to say is, there are other sims out there that for ME simulate driving a little better. As Jan says, there are a lot of weird things going on in the GPL engine. Because it blew every other 'sim' out of the water when it was released, people are now a little blind to this fact I think. Sort of starstruck. Someone like me, who gave GPL a good go but let it rest for 5 years and comes back to it, notices these things probably a little more than people who've been at it solidly since release. As for my controller, I use the BRD speed 7 pedals with a momo force wheel. And yes, it had nice FF effects. :) With utmost respect, massivechicken "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Gene > > <SNIP> > > >Why don't I drive it? Because it doesn't 'feel' right to me. It's a hellof > > a lot of fun, but I just can't imagine any real car EVER handling like aGPL > > car. Papy have gotten better and better, so I look forward to GPL2 ifthat

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> > eventuates. > > There are many people with a lot of single seater experience who say GPL > is very realistic as far as car handling goes. Have you any real world > knowledge to base your conclusion on? > > Also, did you use FFB with GPL? > > > I look forward to your level headed, thoughtful, respectful and

intelligent

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> > reply. lol. > > Will that do? :) > > Very respectfully yours > > Gerry

"Gene Penman" wrote:

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> What I'm trying to say is, there are other sims out there that for ME > simulate driving a little better. As Jan says, there are a lot of weird > things going on in the GPL engine. Because it blew every other 'sim' out of > the water when it was released, people are now a little blind to this fact I > think. Sort of starstruck. Someone like me, who gave GPL a good go but let > it rest for 5 years and comes back to it, notices these things probably a > little more than people who've been at it solidly since release.

Yet GPL is one of the only sims not to have third party physics updates as the general 3rd party community don't have the facility. The remainder seem to have a plethora of "real" physics updates all of which claim to offer real car like driving yet are so different in feel from each other. To me this just highlights the personal preference in feel from these sims. They *have* to fool the brain into providing that sensation of losing the backend, replacing the seat of the pants feel from the physics via visual, audible and force feedback cues. For a considerable number, GPL has provided that feel and still does, unsurpassed by anything that has come out for that genre. For others there will be alternative sims that have that combination of factors to provide that feel. Doesn't mean either set are wrong - its just what works for each individual. Just as in any racing series what suits one driver perfectly is an evil pig for another, I would argue the substitue cues for real physics exaggerate this even more. As Jan has said some have adopted a driving style and car setup approach which matches as closely as possible to real life. For those GPL seems the most realistic simulator available simply because there is a match between the cues and driving style. Doesn't mean anyone else is wrong - it simply fits. Personally I prefer the graphical style of Papy sims to the EA F1 series. With the add ons GPL is a more immersive and easy on the eye sim, whilst the EA series provide great static shots but the in game graphics leave me cold. Purely my preference. It may not seem important but I think it adds to the visual cues and hence the feel factor again. Despite its age I can't think of a sim (exluding Nascar) that provides a better feel factor, regardless of the known limitation of the engine at extremes. That is with some extensive times away from the sim as new things come out and one expects to ditch GPL just as F1GP, ICR, GP2, ICR2, RS were ditched unceremoniously as a new toy came out top replace it beforehand. All IMHO off course! Cheers Tony

"Gene Penman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b19i1j$[email hidden]... <snip> > What I'm trying to say is, there are other sims out there that for ME > simulate driving a little better. As Jan says, there are a lot of weird > things going on in the GPL engine. Because it blew every other 'sim' outof > the water when it was released, people are now a little blind to this factI > think. Sort of starstruck. Someone like me, who gave GPL a good go but let > it rest for 5 years and comes back to it, notices these things probably a > little more than people who've been at it solidly since release. > OK I suspect this is a difference in opinion here, but anyway, here goes: When I bought GPL I bought it for �5. I wanted it to be worse that GP3 - I thought all the people who came to the various GP3 forums preaching about GPL were trolling, and were wronig. When I played GPL, it was so hard I gave up and went back to GP3. When I got bored of GP3, I came back to GPL, and got into it. Despite trying my damnest not to like it (to protect GP3) I said in another post that a cross between the GPL Brabham and the GPL Ferrari handles scarily like a prokart in the rain. I think that GPL is the only non-NASCAR sim to be close enough to handle like a car would in reality. I doubt they got it right for the cars they are simulating, but they got it right for a car. That's better than most IMO.