WRC v GPL @ Monaco

Just a daft hypothetical question which came to me while I was drifting off to sleep last night..... I remember seeing a Ford sponsored event where an MPV, Ford Focus and F1 car were run from a standing start around Silverstone. Obviously they gave head starts etc, and the F1 car won (!), but the Focus actually outpaced the F1 car around some of the v. low speed tight corners. It got me thinking about the current breed of WRCs. Would (say) Colin Mcrae's Citroen Xsara WRC be a faster car around Monaco (deliberately picked a more twisty course!) than a 1967 Grand Prix car? And how much slower would it be around the course than a current F1 car? With 4WD and the ability to slide the car with more control, there would be some advantages to running a WRC as opposed to a F1 car, but I am no expert and have no clue as to what might be better. And if you really don't care, don't post! Matt

Colin's car maybe not, but Sebastien LOEB's car COULD be.....ha ha ha -- The first ever pinball ezboard !! http://pub7.ezboard.com/bpinball SYS80 : BLK HOLE - HNTD HSE - SPRIT - VOLCNO - PNK PNTHER - DEVLS DARE - RYL FLSH DLX - SPDERMAN - CHRLIE'S NGELS - TX SCTOR - MRS GOW - RBO WARS BALLY : XENN - EGHT BLL - EGHT BLL CHMP - PACMN - SPKEASY 4 - STRKES N SPRES - SPCE INVDERS - FTRE SPA - LADY LCK - PRAGON WILLIAMS : BLCKOUT - CNTACT - ADDMS FAMLY "Matt Larkin" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news: [email hidden]... > Just a daft hypothetical question which came to me while I was > drifting off to sleep last night..... > > I remember seeing a Ford sponsored event where an MPV, Ford Focus and > F1 car were run from a standing start around Silverstone. Obviously > they gave head starts etc, and the F1 car won (!), but the Focus > actually outpaced the F1 car around some of the v. low speed tight > corners. > > It got me thinking about the current breed of WRCs. Would (say) Colin > Mcrae's Citroen Xsara WRC be a faster car around Monaco (deliberately > picked a more twisty course!) than a 1967 Grand Prix car? And how > much slower would it be around the course than a current F1 car? With > 4WD and the ability to slide the car with more control, there would be > some advantages to running a WRC as opposed to a F1 car, but I am no > expert and have no clue as to what might be better. > > And if you really don't care, don't post! > > Matt

On 12 Feb 2003 01:09:15 -0800, [email hidden] (Matt Larkin) wrote something like this:

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>Just a daft hypothetical question which came to me while I was >drifting off to sleep last night..... > >I remember seeing a Ford sponsored event where an MPV, Ford Focus and >F1 car were run from a standing start around Silverstone. Obviously >they gave head starts etc, and the F1 car won (!), but the Focus >actually outpaced the F1 car around some of the v. low speed tight >corners.

I've seen a Mercedes sponsored video clip with F1 car (McLaren driven by Coulthard), Mercedes E55 AMG and Mercedes A-class (possibly A190). Didn't know that Ford had done a similar event...? >It got me thinking about the current breed of WRCs. Would (say) Colin >Mcrae's Citroen Xsara WRC be a faster car around Monaco (deliberately >picked a more twisty course!) than a 1967 Grand Prix car? And how Being heavier and having less power, I'd say the Xsara would be slower. On the other hand, tires have come a long way since -67, and the 4wd certainly helps getting the power down too. -- - JKo -

"Matt Larkin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Just a daft hypothetical question which came to me while I was > drifting off to sleep last night..... > > I remember seeing a Ford sponsored event where an MPV, Ford Focus and > F1 car were run from a standing start around Silverstone. Obviously > they gave head starts etc, and the F1 car won (!), but the Focus > actually outpaced the F1 car around some of the v. low speed tight > corners. > > It got me thinking about the current breed of WRCs. Would (say) Colin > Mcrae's Citroen Xsara WRC be a faster car around Monaco (deliberately > picked a more twisty course!) than a 1967 Grand Prix car? And how > much slower would it be around the course than a current F1 car? With > 4WD and the ability to slide the car with more control, there would be > some advantages to running a WRC as opposed to a F1 car, but I am no > expert and have no clue as to what might be better. >

From the web: To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind, however, that current GroupA cars are faster yet than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as compared to GroupB cars.

> > Being heavier and having less power, I'd say the Xsara would be > slower. On the other hand, tires have come a long way since -67, and > the 4wd certainly helps getting the power down too. > --And the brakes, and the chassis, and the engine electronics, and....it'd be interesting though....

On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:09:29 +0100, "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>From the web: > >To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of >I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the >Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of >which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth >position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole >Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 >seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his >usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind, however, that current GroupA >cars are faster yet than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to >technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading >to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as >compared to GroupB cars.

This is an oft-repeated but rarely-substantiated anecdote. Let me quote a 1999 post by Gunther Roland on r.a.s.f1. "That particular piece of 'information' pops up on rasf1 every couple of month and I still believe it is absolutely impossible. Remember, we are talking about the 1.5l turbo engines with >1000 HP in qualifying trim in 500kg cars, with wide slicks and big wings. "The Group B cars had less power, more weight, higher COG, no qualifying slicks, less downforce. There is no way they could have gotten withing 2.5 sec of Ayrton Senna in a Lotus Renault, Toivonen or not. "The only possible source of this confusion I can imagine are the lap times from the *WET* 1985 Portugese GP - these were about 20 sec down from the qualifying times. That might have been just within reach for a Group B rally car. "About the only advantage the Group B car had is AWD - and if you compare todays FWD F2 rally cars with the AWD Group A on asphalt that doesn't seem to make much of a difference (compared to say a few 100 kg of weight difference)." Martin

"Txl" <txl AT free.fr> wrote in news:3e4a1746$0$227$[email hidden]: > Colin's car maybe not, but Sebastien LOEB's car COULD be.....ha ha ha > Put Panizzi back in a Pug and let him run rings around Monte Carlo. Heck he could spin donuts at the chicane after the tunnel and still be faster than Mr Coulthard. :) If it's pavement it's Panizzi. dave henrie

> I've seen a Mercedes sponsored video clip with F1 car (McLaren driven > by Coulthard), Mercedes E55 AMG and Mercedes A-class (possibly A190). > Didn't know that Ford had done a similar event...? > Yeah, maybe I got confused with that one, as I do remember the Mercedes one - had DC standing by his car waiting to get going, twiddling his thumbs etc. But I have definitely seen the Focus v F1 car, maybe not in the same format. I think the advantage that the Focus had was the better turning circle on the slow corners and the way softer suspension had a positive effect at low speeds. Maybe it was on BBC's Top Gear rather than the sponsored thing that was prior to the GP a couple of years ago. Matt

This is old hype. The car wasnt driving on the same track. "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3e4a1dac$[email hidden]...

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> > "Matt Larkin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Just a daft hypothetical question which came to me while I was > > drifting off to sleep last night..... > > > > I remember seeing a Ford sponsored event where an MPV, Ford Focus and > > F1 car were run from a standing start around Silverstone. Obviously > > they gave head starts etc, and the F1 car won (!), but the Focus > > actually outpaced the F1 car around some of the v. low speed tight > > corners. > > > > It got me thinking about the current breed of WRCs. Would (say) Colin > > Mcrae's Citroen Xsara WRC be a faster car around Monaco (deliberately > > picked a more twisty course!) than a 1967 Grand Prix car? And how > > much slower would it be around the course than a current F1 car? With > > 4WD and the ability to slide the car with more control, there would be > > some advantages to running a WRC as opposed to a F1 car, but I am no > > expert and have no clue as to what might be better. > > > > From the web: > > To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of > I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around

the > Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of > which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth > position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole > Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 > seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied byhis

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> usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind, however, that current GroupA > cars are faster yet than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to > technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading > to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as > compared to GroupB cars. > > > > > >

Yes. Markus Gr�nholm said in an interview in swedish car-magazine, that it was mostly throttle to the floor, since the cars have lots of electronics to make the most out of it. And he can even adjust the car while driving, but he never does that. Everything from chassi, to gearbox, diffs, etc are all computercontrolled. He wanted 450hp atleast to sort out the drivers, but thought the cars would get too fast then. "Txl" <txl AT free.fr> wrote in message news:3e4a1dce$0$249$[email hidden]...

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> > > > > Being heavier and having less power, I'd say the Xsara would be > > slower. On the other hand, tires have come a long way since -67, and > > the 4wd certainly helps getting the power down too. > > -- > And the brakes, and the chassis, and the engine electronics, and....it'd

be > interesting though.... >

"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:EEu2a.3$[email hidden]... > Yes. Markus Gr�nholm said in an interview in swedish car-magazine, that it > was mostly throttle to the floor, since the cars have lots of electronicsto > make the most out of it. And he can even adjust the car while driving, but > he never does that. Everything from chassi, to gearbox, diffs, etc are all > computercontrolled. > He wanted 450hp atleast to sort out the drivers, but thought the carswould > get too fast then. You are absolutely right. Todays WRC-Cars are too good for the relatively low power they have. If those cars would have 450 hp they would go like hell, but I don�t want to see those cars with as sudden electronic-system-fail.

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> "Txl" <txl AT free.fr> wrote in message > news:3e4a1dce$0$249$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Being heavier and having less power, I'd say the Xsara would be > > > slower. On the other hand, tires have come a long way since -67, and > > > the 4wd certainly helps getting the power down too. > > > -- > > And the brakes, and the chassis, and the engine electronics, and....it'd > be > > interesting though.... > > > >

"Matt Larkin" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]...

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> > I've seen a Mercedes sponsored video clip with F1 car (McLaren driven > > by Coulthard), Mercedes E55 AMG and Mercedes A-class (possibly A190). > > Didn't know that Ford had done a similar event...? > > > Yeah, maybe I got confused with that one, as I do remember the > Mercedes one - had DC standing by his car waiting to get going, > twiddling his thumbs etc.

Yes, that�s the one from Mercedes, it�s available online on many sites in the web. Just try google for example. The A-class was a A160, A190 wasn�t available at that time. > But I have definitely seen the Focus v F1 car, maybe not in the same > format. I think the advantage that the Focus had was the better > turning circle on the slow corners and the way softer suspension had a > positive effect at low speeds. I remember a book released 1996 by Renault, which was available here in Germany for a while. There was the comparison between Michael Schumacher in his Benetton Renault B195 against a Renault Clio 16V on Circuit Nevers in Magny-Cours. This track has the very tight hairpin called Adeleide and in this corner the Clio was a little bit faster, can�t remember the exact speeds, think it was 50 vs. 55 km/h, because of the limited wheel lock of the F1 and because of the fact that at those low speeds the aerodynamic doesn�t help. Additionally the Clio is much smaller than an F1. But you must have corners like that or the hairpins at Monaco to see a saloon go faster than an F1. In any corner about let�s say 55 km/h an F1 is way faster. > Maybe it was on BBC's Top Gear rather than the sponsored thing that > was prior to the GP a couple of years ago. I remember such a clip of ford, too, but can�t remember where I�ve seen it. > MattGreetings from Germany Stephan

"Stephan Paskert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b2ejrt$127$03$[email hidden]...

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> "Matt Larkin" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[email hidden]... > > Maybe it was on BBC's Top Gear rather than the sponsored thing that > > was prior to the GP a couple of years ago. > > I remember such a clip of ford, too, but can�t remember where I�ve seen

it. The Ford clip is from a Jeremy Clarkson video. Malc.

"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2Du2a.2$[email hidden]... > This is old hype. The car wasnt driving on the same track. > True, but it was a good story, wasn't it? :-) Probably the best way to get an idea of how they would compare would be to look at some touring car times on similar tracks. The BTCC cars are pushing close to the 300hp of the WRC cars and have about the same weight. As others have posted, they are nowhere near the times for F1. The Porsche Supercup cars get nowhere near the times of the F1 cars at Monaco, but they don't quite have the power to weight ratio of the WRC cars. Stephen