Colin Mcrae 3 for XBOX not as good as reviews say IMHO.

I just got the game yesterday, and was a bit disappointed, given the high marks that it has been given in magazine reviews. The physics are not awful, but they are not as good as even the arcadish physics in Rallisport Challenge, which are at least fun if not realistic. The graphical damage modelling is excellent, with body parts flying off and coming unhinged. The graphics overall are good but not as good as rallisport challenge's. The game is fun to a degree , but not worth the $50 I spent. I would say rent before buying .

Do you prefer Rallisport Challenge better? Looking for a decent racing arcade game for Xbox. Sega GT is ok but nothing great. "amp green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:IFS6a.5849$[email hidden]...

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> I just got the game yesterday, and was a bit disappointed, given the > high marks that it has been given in magazine reviews. The physics are > not awful, but they are not as good as even the arcadish physics in > Rallisport Challenge, which are at least fun if not realistic. > The graphical damage modelling is excellent, with body parts flying off > and coming unhinged. The graphics overall are good but not as good as > rallisport challenge's. The game is fun to a degree , but not worth the > $50 I spent. I would say rent before buying . >

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:15:54 -0400, "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Do you prefer Rallisport Challenge better? Looking for a decent racing >arcade game for Xbox. Sega GT is ok but nothing great. Schooner I've bought a pile of them and here is how I would rank them, relative to each other. Sega GT 2002 - C Project Gotham - B Thunder 2003 - A Rallisport Challenge - B F1 2001 - D Moto GP - A The demo of Rally Fusion was horrible and not enough to convince me to even shell out the paltry $20-30 it's going for. I'm probably going to grab Colin Mcrae 3 and Apex this week and will post some sort of review probably if they're worth the time. For more action oriented games, I enjoy Spy Hunter and Wreckless quite a bit. I also have Crazy Taxi, but you're not missing much if you already have either of the Dreamcast versions. Thunder 2003 and Moto GP alone could kill hours of your time. Thunder features the best career mode I've seen in a racing sim (haven't tried Dirt to Daytona, wish it was ported to the x-box). If you really want, you can race a full schedule over 20 years with 100% race lengths, which obviously would kill a significant portion of your time. It's amazing to me just how much better the console versions of Thunder are compared to the incredibly weak PC version. This is also the only x-box racer I sort of wish I had a wheel for. Moto GP is xbox live enabled and is fairly challenging to drive even if you don't spend hours with multiplay. Doesn't have a real career type mode per se, but you can create a new rider and improve his performance by completing training exercises. I've heard nothing but good things about the online support for it. The graphics/sound are incredibly immersive. Rallisport Challenge is quite fun with a gamepad. I wasn't overly keen on it on the PC with a wheel and sometimes choppy framerates, but on the X-box with the s-controller it really is a lot of fun for a short-stage rally game. Proejct Gotham is my favorite street racer ever (with it's predecessor, Metropolis Street Racing on the Dreamcast a close second). The kudos system sounds silly before you try it, but it's really challenging trying to put down good times and win races while maximizing your style score (you get kudos for doing tricks basically, like getting air and pulling off long handbrake slides). Also, FWIW, the only 3 x-box racers that I'm aware of having a proper cockpit camera are Thunder, Moto GP, and F1 2001. Jason

Thanks. Might pickup Rallisport as EB has it used cheap now. not big on Thunder as I run Papy league on PC so just looking for a change of pace from sim racing. Just something that looks and feels decent with a gamepad. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:15:54 -0400, "Schooner" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Do you prefer Rallisport Challenge better? Looking for a decent racing > >arcade game for Xbox. Sega GT is ok but nothing great. > > Schooner I've bought a pile of them and here is how I would rank them, > relative to each other. > > Sega GT 2002 - C > Project Gotham - B > Thunder 2003 - A > Rallisport Challenge - B > F1 2001 - D > Moto GP - A > > The demo of Rally Fusion was horrible and not enough to convince me to > even shell out the paltry $20-30 it's going for. I'm probably going > to grab Colin Mcrae 3 and Apex this week and will post some sort of > review probably if they're worth the time. > > For more action oriented games, I enjoy Spy Hunter and Wreckless quite > a bit. I also have Crazy Taxi, but you're not missing much if you > already have either of the Dreamcast versions. > > Thunder 2003 and Moto GP alone could kill hours of your time. Thunder > features the best career mode I've seen in a racing sim (haven't tried > Dirt to Daytona, wish it was ported to the x-box). If you really > want, you can race a full schedule over 20 years with 100% race > lengths, which obviously would kill a significant portion of your > time. It's amazing to me just how much better the console versions of > Thunder are compared to the incredibly weak PC version. This is also > the only x-box racer I sort of wish I had a wheel for. > > Moto GP is xbox live enabled and is fairly challenging to drive even > if you don't spend hours with multiplay. Doesn't have a real career > type mode per se, but you can create a new rider and improve his > performance by completing training exercises. I've heard nothing but > good things about the online support for it. The graphics/sound are > incredibly immersive. > > Rallisport Challenge is quite fun with a gamepad. I wasn't overly > keen on it on the PC with a wheel and sometimes choppy framerates, but > on the X-box with the s-controller it really is a lot of fun for a > short-stage rally game. > > Proejct Gotham is my favorite street racer ever (with it's > predecessor, Metropolis Street Racing on the Dreamcast a close > second). The kudos system sounds silly before you try it, but it's > really challenging trying to put down good times and win races while > maximizing your style score (you get kudos for doing tricks basically, > like getting air and pulling off long handbrake slides). > > Also, FWIW, the only 3 x-box racers that I'm aware of having a proper > cockpit camera are Thunder, Moto GP, and F1 2001. > > Jason

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:49:30 -0400, "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Thanks. Might pickup Rallisport as EB has it used cheap now. not big on >Thunder as I run Papy league on PC so just looking for a change of pace from >sim racing. Just something that looks and feels decent with a gamepad. Rallisport Challenge and Project Gotham would be my suggestions then. Both are fun, race well with a gamepad, and are $20. Looks like I won't get a chance to pickup CMR3 or Apex until Thursday. Jason

Rallisport Challenge is the best party game I have found for the Xbox. Single player is not much fun though, some of the stages are long and difficult and you can't save in the middle of a stage. If you play a lot of Xbox with friends, get it and use the cheat codes to unlock the good stuff, but if you just play single player, skip it. "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JOS6a.11592$[email hidden]... > Do you prefer Rallisport Challenge better? Looking for a decent racing > arcade game for Xbox. Sega GT is ok but nothing great. >

I rented Thunder and I bought Heat. NASCAR Heat is much more of a sim than Thunder, although it doesn't have the career mode feature that Thunder has, it only has a season mode. But IMO Heat for the Xbox is not only better than Thunder, it's better than Heat for the PC and it's also about the only really decent sim on the Xbox. I have nothing against arcade driving games, I have a ton of them too, but given the posts you have made in the past about realism in various games I would think you would like Heat on the Xbox a lot more than Thunder. "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Schooner I've bought a pile of them and here is how I would rank them, > relative to each other. > > Sega GT 2002 - C > Project Gotham - B > Thunder 2003 - A > Rallisport Challenge - B > F1 2001 - D > Moto GP - A > > The demo of Rally Fusion was horrible and not enough to convince me to > even shell out the paltry $20-30 it's going for. I'm probably going > to grab Colin Mcrae 3 and Apex this week and will post some sort of > review probably if they're worth the time. > > For more action oriented games, I enjoy Spy Hunter and Wreckless quite > a bit. I also have Crazy Taxi, but you're not missing much if you > already have either of the Dreamcast versions. > > Thunder 2003 and Moto GP alone could kill hours of your time. Thunder > features the best career mode I've seen in a racing sim (haven't tried > Dirt to Daytona, wish it was ported to the x-box). If you really > want, you can race a full schedule over 20 years with 100% race > lengths, which obviously would kill a significant portion of your > time. It's amazing to me just how much better the console versions of > Thunder are compared to the incredibly weak PC version. This is also > the only x-box racer I sort of wish I had a wheel for. > > Moto GP is xbox live enabled and is fairly challenging to drive even > if you don't spend hours with multiplay. Doesn't have a real career > type mode per se, but you can create a new rider and improve his > performance by completing training exercises. I've heard nothing but > good things about the online support for it. The graphics/sound are > incredibly immersive. > > Rallisport Challenge is quite fun with a gamepad. I wasn't overly > keen on it on the PC with a wheel and sometimes choppy framerates, but > on the X-box with the s-controller it really is a lot of fun for a > short-stage rally game. > > Proejct Gotham is my favorite street racer ever (with it's > predecessor, Metropolis Street Racing on the Dreamcast a close > second). The kudos system sounds silly before you try it, but it's > really challenging trying to put down good times and win races while > maximizing your style score (you get kudos for doing tricks basically, > like getting air and pulling off long handbrake slides). > > Also, FWIW, the only 3 x-box racers that I'm aware of having a proper > cockpit camera are Thunder, Moto GP, and F1 2001. > > Jason

> >Thanks. Might pickup Rallisport as EB has it used cheap now. not big on > >Thunder as I run Papy league on PC so just looking for a change of pacefrom > >sim racing. Just something that looks and feels decent with a gamepad. > > Rallisport Challenge and Project Gotham would be my suggestions then. > Both are fun, race well with a gamepad, and are $20. > > Looks like I won't get a chance to pickup CMR3 or Apex until Thursday. It's amazing for once to hear people anticipating a game I hired 3 months ago (CMR3). (Normally the other way around for European releases) CMR3 falls between a sim and arcade game and fails at both. If you thought that Sega GT was good then you'll enjoy Apex. Personally, I find them both like watching paint dry compared to Project Gotham which has awesome variety and carefully crafted arcade gameplay. Can't get Thunder here in Australia and I find Moto GP to be more of a poor simulation rather than a good arcade game.

Take a look at Apex. Haven't played it yet but the reviews have been encouraging (avg score 84%). Unique twist is that you not only race cars but you develop your own models (from some pre-set base models). Screen shots look prettier than GT3 which is no small feat. Seems the best features are smart and competitive AI (rare in just about any racer), interesting car development/customization, and nice graphic and 5.1 DD sound. -- Joe M. "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JOS6a.11592$[email hidden]... > Do you prefer Rallisport Challenge better? Looking for a decent racing > arcade game for Xbox. Sega GT is ok but nothing great. > > "amp green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:IFS6a.5849$[email hidden]... > > I just got the game yesterday, and was a bit disappointed, given the > > high marks that it has been given in magazine reviews. The physics are > > not awful, but they are not as good as even the arcadish physics in > > Rallisport Challenge, which are at least fun if not realistic. > > The graphical damage modelling is excellent, with body parts flying off > > and coming unhinged. The graphics overall are good but not as good as > > rallisport challenge's. The game is fun to a degree , but not worth the > > $50 I spent. I would say rent before buying . > > > >

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:43:38 -0500, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I rented Thunder and I bought Heat. NASCAR Heat is much more of a sim than >Thunder, although it doesn't have the career mode feature that Thunder has, >it only has a season mode. But IMO Heat for the Xbox is not only better >than Thunder, it's better than Heat for the PC and it's also about the only >really decent sim on the Xbox. I have nothing against arcade driving games, >I have a ton of them too, but given the posts you have made in the past >about realism in various games I would think you would like Heat on the Xbox >a lot more than Thunder.

You know, I haven't actually gotten Heat 2002 yet. I'll grab it when I make my run to EB later this evening to pick up Apex, CMR3, and Kung Fu Chaos. =) I'm a big realism fan, but consoles to me are more about fun than realism. I do wish that MGI had released Dirt to Daytona for the console however, as it looks very nice. Jason

Have you played Heat for the PC? It's basically the same, but the Xbox version has better graphics and the 2002 season cars. Thing is, some of the things that annoyed me about the PC version actually work well on the Xbox. The PC version to me felt like it had slow, vague, and unresponsive handling, but on the Xbox when you are trying to steer with thumbsticks that actually becomes a good thing! ;o) Short tracks are a blast in this game. Also, with the possible exception of Thunder this is the only racing game I know of for Xbox that has a really useful garage feature and a very PC-ish replay viewer (as opposed to the "keystroke recorders" that other games use). Let me know what you think of Kung Fu Chaos, I might get it this weekend. If you think it's too OT for here just e-mail me with your opinion. Thanks, Hal "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > You know, I haven't actually gotten Heat 2002 yet. I'll grab it when > I make my run to EB later this evening to pick up Apex, CMR3, and Kung > Fu Chaos. =) > > I'm a big realism fan, but consoles to me are more about fun than > realism. I do wish that MGI had released Dirt to Daytona for the > console however, as it looks very nice. > > Jason

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:14:12 -0500, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Let me know what you think of Kung Fu Chaos, I might get it this weekend. >If you think it's too OT for here just e-mail me with your opinion. Picked it up but haven't had a chance to play it yet. I don't think anything is too OT for this newsgroup. =p Quick summaries of the other 2: Apex: Very GT3/Sega GT style physics. The build-your-own-brand career mode is fun but disappointing since you can't actually design anything. AI is interesting in that you will actually encounter cars losing control after making or avoiding contact with each other, but at the same is really annoying because of the obnoxious speed up/slow down routine. Winning a race against the AI seems more a matter of holding the inside line to each corner than actually putting up great lap times. The graphics are unbelievable, particularly the environments which are stunning. It has the NR2003 style 2-d animated objects (altho in this case in addition to helicopters/blimps there are airplanes, buses, and so forth) as well as nice little touches such as a crowd holding a huge Atari banner that is flopping about in the wind. I've knackered moer than one race in the early going because something off-track caught my eye. Overall a good arcade racer but more on par with Sega GT or GT3 in terms of overall fun and gameplay than Project Gotham. I'd give it a B-. CMR3: Fun but really dodgy physics. The stages are the typical Colin Mcrae 3 minute blasts with a 90 degree turn every 50 feet. Graphics/sound are a good way below Rallisport Challenge which also has much more convincing handling imho. Strong point is the damage model which actually appears to make a difference in the way the car handles this year. I hit a tree fairly hard and destroyed the left front of the car, resulting in the car pulling to one side really badly the rest of that day while the hood flopped in my face for a bit before finally shearing off. Has the scariest "hood in your face" effect this side of Nascar 4. Makes me wish Rallisport Challenge would get redone with a proper damage model and 20km special stages. I'd give it a C thusfar, altho the career mode seems to have some potential and may raise that to a B-. Jason

> Take a look at Apex. Haven't played it yet but the reviews have been > encouraging (avg score 84%). Unique twist is that you not only race cars > but you develop your own models (from some pre-set base models). Screen > shots look prettier than GT3 which is no small feat. Don't get too excited about ''''''developing'''''' your own car :-\ If looking at 3 plans and then telling someone to go develop that car is your idea of fun, go for it. > Seems the best features are smart and competitive AI (rare in just aboutany Smart and competitive? Hardly. Stupid cheaters would be a far more apt description. The races get easier as you progress through the game - how pointless and boring is that? > racer), interesting car development/customization, and nice graphic and5.1 > DD sound. I assure you, there aren't any 'interesting' developments. It's all kiddie car upgrades that do virtually nothing. DD 5.1 sound? Well, yes, but it's not anywhere near as good as Sega GT's which wasn't that special either. The car sounds are truly pathetic. The graphics are *extremely* nice. However, they would want to be considering Apex runs at half the frame rate of Gran Turismo 3 - pathetic. The lighting, despite featuring fully reflective cube-mapping, doesn't look natural. The only saving grace is that the handling is quite fun (not realistic though) but not as fun as Project Gotham. The races are brain-numbingly repetitive. This game was made with two things in mind - making pretty screenshots for websites and magazines and being able to hype it as having a career mode despite the fact it has no substance whatsoever. Apex is the most overrated, overhyped Xbox game since Halo.

What Xbox games do you suggest or do you hate them all and the Xbox in general? It is by no means on par with sim racing on the PC but it is a different style of play. I do agree about Apex however, haven't tried it but all the reviews I have read and the info I know on it make it sound poor at best, especially designing the cars. Picked up Rallisport Challenge yesterday and so far like it, much better that Sega GT IMHO. "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b3l6v8$1bo6u9$[email hidden]... > > Take a look at Apex. Haven't played it yet but the reviews have been > > encouraging (avg score 84%). Unique twist is that you not only racecars

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> > but you develop your own models (from some pre-set base models). Screen > > shots look prettier than GT3 which is no small feat. > > Don't get too excited about ''''''developing'''''' your own car :-\ If > looking at 3 plans and then telling someone to go develop that car is your > idea of fun, go for it. > > > Seems the best features are smart and competitive AI (rare in just about > any > > Smart and competitive? Hardly. Stupid cheaters would be a far more apt > description. The races get easier as you progress through the game - how > pointless and boring is that? > > > racer), interesting car development/customization, and nice graphic and > 5.1 > > DD sound. > > I assure you, there aren't any 'interesting' developments. It's all

kiddie > car upgrades that do virtually nothing. DD 5.1 sound? Well, yes, butit's > not anywhere near as good as Sega GT's which wasn't that special either. > The car sounds are truly pathetic. > > The graphics are *extremely* nice. However, they would want to be > considering Apex runs at half the frame rate of Gran Turismo 3 - pathetic. > The lighting, despite featuring fully reflective cube-mapping, doesn'tlook

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> natural. > > The only saving grace is that the handling is quite fun (not realistic > though) but not as fun as Project Gotham. The races are brain-numbingly > repetitive. > > This game was made with two things in mind - making pretty screenshots for > websites and magazines and being able to hype it as having a career mode > despite the fact it has no substance whatsoever. Apex is the most > overrated, overhyped Xbox game since Halo. > > >

> What Xbox games do you suggest or do you hate them all and the Xbox in > general? Well, Project Gotham is head and shoulders above everything else. Rallisport Challenge is probably the next best. > It is by no means on par with sim racing on the PC but it is a different > style of play. I do agree about Apex however, haven't tried it but allthe > reviews I have read and the info I know on it make it sound poor at best, > especially designing the cars. Yeah, for once Gamespot hit the nail right on the head with Apex. It's a fabulous concept but very poorly executed. > Picked up Rallisport Challenge yesterday and so far like it, much better > that Sega GT IMHO. If you don't like Sega GT then you won't like Apex - they've got a lot in common. Sega GT has smoother graphics and more polished replays but not as much detail. The career mode is equally poorly structured in both games. They both involve unlocking a minimal number of cars except Apex tries to pretend that it's allowing you to make decisions.

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b3l8pc$1nj8se$[email hidden]... > > What Xbox games do you suggest or do you hate them all and the Xbox in > > general? > > Well, Project Gotham is head and shoulders above everything else. Thanks for the comments above about Apex, it's off my list given your feedback. What do you like about Project Gotham? For $20, the price is right at this point. I've read the reviews but I'd like comments from a r.a.s guy. My only hesitation is the kudos thing, I'm not a big fan of style over substance (where flashy driving is more important than competitive driving). Is the crux of the game driving with style or is there enough racing experience to make it worthwhile? TIA. -- Joe M.

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:34:01 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) wrote:

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>On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:14:12 -0500, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> >wrote: > >>Let me know what you think of Kung Fu Chaos, I might get it this weekend. >>If you think it's too OT for here just e-mail me with your opinion. > >Picked it up but haven't had a chance to play it yet. I don't think >anything is too OT for this newsgroup. =p

OMFG! All I can say is this... if you like 70's kung fun flicks pick it up. I've spent the past 3 hours playing it and seriously don't want to put it down. The gameplay is basically a fighting game that takes place in a platform game environment with a career mode. The fighting portions aren't as complicated as Virtua Fighter or pointlessly arcane as Mortal Kombat or the old Capcom games, and flows pretty well. There are essentially 3 fighting buttons, a block button, and a taunt button and combos are along the lines of x-x-x, x-x-y, etc. Not tough to deal with which is important since most of the game you'll be fighting 3 people at the same time while trying to keep up with the set as it collapses, etc. Very very very funny game, I'd give it an A and put it in with the most entertaining console games I've played. Not sure I'd recommend it however unless you are a fan of what it is attempting to parody. Even the replays rule as it uses a film grain overlay (sort of like the intro/preview movie if you've seen it) and lots of standard 70's hong kong special effects while the director of the film provides sappy DVD-style commentary. It's awesome. =) Jason

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:57:38 -0500, "Joe M." <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:b3l8pc$1nj8se$[email hidden]... >> > What Xbox games do you suggest or do you hate them all and the Xbox in >> > general? >> >> Well, Project Gotham is head and shoulders above everything else. > >Thanks for the comments above about Apex, it's off my list given your >feedback. > >What do you like about Project Gotham? For $20, the price is right at this >point. I've read the reviews but I'd like comments from a r.a.s guy.

The cars rock, the sense of speed is pretty good. And the graphics are top notch, IMO. Glowing discs... There is a cheat code that allows you to bypass the truly difficult medal system. It is really hard to get to the good cars, I was getting somehwat frustrated with how hard it was. > >My only hesitation is the kudos thing, I'm not a big fan of style over >substance (where flashy driving is more important than competitive driving). >Is the crux of the game driving with style or is there enough racing >experience to make it worthwhile? > Well, the style isn't hot dog stuff, because you still have to go fast, so it's sorta jut about fishtailing and burning rubber, really. And hitting big jumps. It's not that bad. And for 20 bucks the game is a good value. >TIA.

> My only hesitation is the kudos thing, I'm not a big fan of style over > substance (where flashy driving is more important than competitivedriving). > Is the crux of the game driving with style or is there enough racing > experience to make it worthwhile? That's fair enough. I would say that there's enough true racing to keep a sim driver happy. You need kudos to unlock new stuff, so there are occasions where you might have to redo a race, but do a lot of drifting to get the required kudos. Often you can get more kudos by stringing a number or corners together driving at the limit rather than powersliding like a madman. Good driving is certainly rewarded, actually the game demands that you're on top of your game most of the time. I particularly like the kudos challenges where you have to drive flat out through cone courses. Sounds dumb, but it's a brilliant concept.

On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:45:44 +1000, "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> My only hesitation is the kudos thing, I'm not a big fan of style over >> substance (where flashy driving is more important than competitive >driving). >> Is the crux of the game driving with style or is there enough racing >> experience to make it worthwhile? > >That's fair enough. I would say that there's enough true racing to keep a >sim driver happy. You need kudos to unlock new stuff, so there are >occasions where you might have to redo a race, but do a lot of drifting to >get the required kudos. > >Often you can get more kudos by stringing a number or corners together >driving at the limit rather than powersliding like a madman. Good driving >is certainly rewarded, actually the game demands that you're on top of your >game most of the time. I particularly like the kudos challenges where you >have to drive flat out through cone courses. Sounds dumb, but it's a >brilliant concept. > >

Yes, but that is such a bitch. :o) That is really difficult, esp if you have a car with a loose feel. It's almost impossible to move on, takes many hours.

PGR is without a doubt the hardest racing title on either the Xbox or PS/2.Bizarre Creations needs to lighten up.

> PGR is without a doubt the hardest racing title on either the Xbox or > PS/2.Bizarre Creations needs to lighten up. Come on, it's not *that* hard. I've got a friend who's a fairly casual racer and he managed to unlock the Ferrari F50.

On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:57:24 +1000, "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> PGR is without a doubt the hardest racing title on either the Xbox or >> PS/2.Bizarre Creations needs to lighten up. > >Come on, it's not *that* hard. I've got a friend who's a fairly casual >racer and he managed to unlock the Ferrari F50. > It is hard, and that is both good and bad, depending on your threshold of frustration. But there is a plateau that is real hard to get over, the car is too slow/squirrely, points to high...it is well into the game, but it is tough to get around, takes skill and many hours. I can see why they did it, more playing time, but I love driving the 911. :o)